This actually looks like kind of a neat idea. Have you tested this list at all? I might consider changing a few things around though:
- Rapid Hybridization should just be actual removal
- Engineered Explosives might serve you better in the sideboard only?
- Have you looked at the new ORI card Languish? In your list it would work as a plague wind which is obviously very powerful. It's almost certainly better than drown in Sorrow and in this instance perhaps better than Damnation (and MUCH cheaper!)
- I'd cut one Geralf's Messenger and the Tombstalker in favor of 2 Gurmags. Maybe even add another and cut 1 Obliterator.
- If you're going to go heavy into Delve - Thought Scours are basically dark rituals. If you run them with snapcasters - they are Dark Ritual Ancestral Recalls. Pretty insane.
- I'm not sure how good Lilly is when running blue. If you're playing the attrition game hard, it becomes very difficult to have cards in your hand, namely any counters.
- Run one island in case you need to fetch in the face of blood moon. I don't know that a list like this needs a full 8 fetches either.
Have you thought about remand instead of mana leak? Or maybe instead of the shadow of doubt, as you may notice that card stopped being played as much again recently and I believe that is because it just isn't that great unless the player only had the one or two lands. I also think that the three drop should be Vendilion Clique instead of Lili...
@Goku890 Nice, I kept an eye on this deck and am happy that someone actually has some results with it. Today I tested a bit and tried to run it like an
UB version of Grixis Delve, but I feel the Bolts are missing to make Snappy the game winner he is in that lists, so that may be the wrong
approach.
Ashiok always over-performed for me in a control list as a one off and also was in some Sultai midrange lists with tournament success.
As I predict the meta to get more creature heavy I think 1 slot for her is justifiable.
Languish is sick, and much better than Damnation here, I played the lists with both, and that often is a 4 mana Plague Wind.
I'm just not a big fan of Messenger, don't you miss any Snapcasters? Maybe go to 2 Messengers, -1 Inquisition and take 2 Snaps?
How are the Tragic Slips? Better than Disfigures? I always felt like Disfigure let's us handle the Burn matchup much better.
I don't like Geralf's Messenger either. Especially in the Zoo and Affinity match-up, but there really isnt a viable replacement for him in this kind of deck. A lot of times I wish he was Vampire Nighthawk even (as bad as that sounds) lol. But he is a live threat when playing against any Grixis deck, Abzan, meh against Collected Company. Also can make Stubborn Denial a hard counter and with a -2 on Liliana of the Veil you can push out a game win to deal that last bit of damage. So there are ups and downs to him.
Have you thought about remand instead of mana leak? Or maybe instead of the shadow of doubt, as you may notice that card stopped being played as much again recently and I believe that is because it just isn't that great unless the player only had the one or two lands. I also think that the three drop should be Vendilion Clique instead of Lili...
This does look like great fun though
Ah yes the pondering question for me when setting this deck up for the PPTQ. I came to the conclusion that Mana Leak permantly answers threats I dont want to see early game. Where Remand just puts them back into your hand for a recast later. If played right later in some match-ups you can hit a full cast Chord of Calling, Collected Company, or Cryptic Command. At the very least you can make them tap out so they aren't able to play additional things that turn. It's still better for a deck like this because this is more of a midrange deck and not a combo deck. I think a lot of people see the U and instantly go to the traditional U playstyle to time walk your opponent and Snap/Grind/Combo win.
It's definitely a preference card. If you haven't had much success with it, it might not be a card that fits your playstyle. At the very least it's just a cycle card for 2.
I am looking forward to trying out at least 3 cards from the Origins list. Send to Sleep, Languish, and Titan of Erebos. Also there are no Affinity players in my local area so I will have to wait until July 19 when the next PPTQ is and try out Hurkyl's Recall. So I really wont know if it is good until then, plus I have to draw an Affinity player, and then I have to see it in my hand. LOL so slim chances I will know anytime soon if it is good in this deck as a side or not
Be careful with how many Islands you run. It will bite you in the ass in a lot of games with Obliterator's quad B cast. Blood Moon is a card. It will definitely hurt you if resolved. With that being said, you have 3 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Thoughtseize, and 6 counter spells. If you suspect your opponent siding into Blood Moon in games 2 and 3 bring in your Countersqualls and just try and stop them from resolving it. I'm not 100% sure you want to be playing Dimir Charm in this deck. It really doesn't benefit you in any way. I also recommend that you run 2 Languish. Elves, Zoo, Collected Company, Jund, and BW Tokens are all real threats to this deck so you need to give them the attention they deserve.
Those are actually all really good points for shadow of doubt! I hadn't thought about the tron match up where people take one land hands in hopes of Expedition Map... As for Mana Leak, I get what you're saying, but if you are a mid range deck, by the time you get to the mid game you should be out classing their threats. So buying you that extra turn is all the control aspect needs. And the card draw is very important I find to get that extra removal card or threat etc. As well as Mana Leak no longer doing much after turn 3 or 4 unless your opponent just happened to curve out perfectly, where remand works unless they are playing a turn twice as late as they would usually...
EDIT: What do you feel about Vendilion Clique? I think it is more the midrange option than lili, but can fill partly the same roll as controlling their hand. You even get to look at it which I find amazingly powerful.
Those are actually all really good points for shadow of doubt! I hadn't thought about the tron match up where people take one land hands in hopes of Expedition Map... As for Mana Leak, I get what you're saying, but if you are a mid range deck, by the time you get to the mid game you should be out classing their threats. So buying you that extra turn is all the control aspect needs. And the card draw is very important I find to get that extra removal card or threat etc. As well as Mana Leak no longer doing much after turn 3 or 4 unless your opponent just happened to curve out perfectly, where remand works unless they are playing a turn twice as late as they would usually...
EDIT: What do you feel about Vendilion Clique? I think it is more the midrange option than lili, but can fill partly the same roll as controlling their hand. You even get to look at it which I find amazingly powerful.
I'm sure Vendilion Clique could gain some spots in the deck, but honestly I would drop Geralf's Messenger before I dropped Liliana of the Veil. Maybe I'm just sentimental, but I have taken over plenty of games with her. I just don't see a one time swap out being as lasting of a threat like she is. Are there times where Vendilion Clique would be great? Of course, but there are too many scenarios that Liliana of the Veil is just the better choice.
For all who was inquiring about a Thought Scour version of this deck. I did some long and hard thinking and this is what I came up with based on my experience with playing this deck.
This primer needs some love or more detail. I'm possibly looking at deck like this, but it would be nice to see more people going in dept on their results etc.
This primer needs some love or more detail. I'm possibly looking at deck like this, but it would be nice to see more people going in dept on their results etc.
I will definitely update it. Tonight I ran the Thought Scour version listed above and by far had the worst showing since I've built the deck. I went 2 and 3. I lost to Tron, Merfolk, and Esper Control. I beat Abzan and Grixis Delver. I am going to try a different version on Friday. It is listed below.
I think this will get a serious bump when Languish comes out for good, in my testings I had many situations where
Damnation was a bad play but Languish would've won me the game.
How are Tombstalker and the Merchant with only 22 lands? What about Remands in place of Leak?
I haven't ran into any land issues, but like I said I will be testing the Gray Merchant of Asphodel this Friday. I doubt it will be an issue since they are just 1 of's. As far as Remand is concerned, I thought the extra draw power would be useful.
Tombstalker really isn't about speed... I believe board presence is not as important as effective board presence. The Flying 5/5 for 1 extra mana is very very strong. You can leave Phyrexian Obliterator up and just swing over for 5. Gurmag Angler is good but for example in the situation where you are keeping a Tron Wurmcoil Engine from swinging at you with Phyrexian Obliterator the Tombstalker will just get in there for 5 where the Gurmag Angler will die.
These are just the situations I have run into. Collected Company decks can block/sac with Viscera Seer and you will never get through, then eventually they will find the combo and kill you. I run the deck in real life, not online. So I'm only speaking from that perspective. I don't know how the computer generates randomness with probability online so the deck may not play the same online like it does in real life. Then you have to take into account which cards you foil/don't foil, how old your sleeves are, and humidity in the card shop you are physically in.
Snapcaster has been brought up a couple times, but I don't believe his exclusion from the deck has really been addressed yet. Surely he's got to be better than Geralf's Messenger? As a 3 drop, snappy can serum visions or iok, both of which seem like better plays than Messenger. And at 4 and 5 mana he really starts to shine.
I realize he'll never be able to turn on Stubborn Denial like an undead Messenger can, but getting every other instant/sorcery in your graveyard turned on seems like a good trade. With only 3 delve guys in the current list, I'm sure you'll be able to manage the graveyard resource just fine.
I dont really know to be honest. I dont own Snapcaster Mage in real life. Therefore he isn't in the deck. Geralf's Messenger just goes with the theme of the deck. If you want to build a list with Snapcaster Mage be my guest. Take it to FNMs and PPTQs and let us know how that works out for you. Geralf's Messenger may have some downsides to it, but so do a lot of cards. I wouldn't discard him so quickly he is easily in the top 5 of the strongest mono B cards in Modern.
Availability issue. Gotcha. I wasn't sure if you had tried him and discarded him as not good (which would really have surprised me), or if he just hadn't been tested.
All my good cards are in paper, which I don't really play anymore. So sadly I just mess around with sub-par budget lists on MODO while slowly building up my collection. Gonna be a long, long time before I have Liliana and Snappy online.
Alright, the PPTQ is this Sunday. This is a build that I will be testing tomorrow night at Modern FNM. If it does well(1st or 2nd place), I will be taking this build to the PPTQ. I've done my very best to make most of the match-ups easier with still keeping the same basic concept of the deck alive.
FNM didn't go well, but I got 15th in the PPTQ last Sunday the 19th. I have another PPTQ next Saturday and I am working on a different build. I am trying to fit this card Monastery Siege into the build.
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Shadows of Innistrad update...
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Spellskite
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Thing in the Ice
Lands
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
3x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
3x Liliana of the Veil
Instants
2x Disfigure
4x Remand
1x Shadow of Doubt
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Victim of Night
Artifact
1x Engineered Explosives
Sorcery
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Languish
2x Thoughtseize
1x Batterskull
2x Countersquall
3x Disfigure
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Flashfreeze
1x Illness in the Ranks
1x Languish
1x Shadow of Doubt
1x Spell Snare
1x Surgical Extraction
The new card Thing in the Ice combos well with Spellskite and Phyrexian Obliterator when he flips into Awoken Horror since both of them are Horror creatures as well.
Original List
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Watery Grave
Sorcery: 12
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Disfigure
4x Remand
3x Victim of Night
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Spell Snare
Planeswalker: 3
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 11
3x Geralf's Messenger
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Tombstalker
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Shadow of Doubt
1x Illness in the Ranks
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Countersquall
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Disfigure
1x Surgical Extraction
- Rapid Hybridization should just be actual removal
- Engineered Explosives might serve you better in the sideboard only?
- Have you looked at the new ORI card Languish? In your list it would work as a plague wind which is obviously very powerful. It's almost certainly better than drown in Sorrow and in this instance perhaps better than Damnation (and MUCH cheaper!)
- I'd cut one Geralf's Messenger and the Tombstalker in favor of 2 Gurmags. Maybe even add another and cut 1 Obliterator.
- If you're going to go heavy into Delve - Thought Scours are basically dark rituals. If you run them with snapcasters - they are Dark Ritual Ancestral Recalls. Pretty insane.
- I'm not sure how good Lilly is when running blue. If you're playing the attrition game hard, it becomes very difficult to have cards in your hand, namely any counters.
- Run one island in case you need to fetch in the face of blood moon. I don't know that a list like this needs a full 8 fetches either.
Anyway, cool idea. Cheers.
This does look like great fun though
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
I don't like Geralf's Messenger either. Especially in the Zoo and Affinity match-up, but there really isnt a viable replacement for him in this kind of deck. A lot of times I wish he was Vampire Nighthawk even (as bad as that sounds) lol. But he is a live threat when playing against any Grixis deck, Abzan, meh against Collected Company. Also can make Stubborn Denial a hard counter and with a -2 on Liliana of the Veil you can push out a game win to deal that last bit of damage. So there are ups and downs to him.
My thoughts on Tragic Slip over Disfigure..... Disfigure gets progressively worse as the game goes on, where as Tragic Slip gets better. Tragic Slip still hits some pretty important creatures like Noble Hierarch, Viscera Seer, Aven Mindcensor, Dark Confidant, Pestermite, Glistener Elf, Inkmoth Nexus, and Birds of Paradise. On the other hand you miss Goblin Guide, Monastery Swiftspear, and Eidolon of the Great Revel. Which can become a huge problem if left unchecked and I understand that. Tragic Slip just helps out a lot in the Jund match up. It was a tough line I had to walk before making a final call on it, but I am not unhappy with Tragic Slip at the moment. Where I have been unhappy with Disfigure in the past which lead me to seek alternative options.
Ah yes the pondering question for me when setting this deck up for the PPTQ. I came to the conclusion that Mana Leak permantly answers threats I dont want to see early game. Where Remand just puts them back into your hand for a recast later. If played right later in some match-ups you can hit a full cast Chord of Calling, Collected Company, or Cryptic Command. At the very least you can make them tap out so they aren't able to play additional things that turn. It's still better for a deck like this because this is more of a midrange deck and not a combo deck. I think a lot of people see the U and instantly go to the traditional U playstyle to time walk your opponent and Snap/Grind/Combo win.
Shadow of Doubt is really good, I have won entire games based on the fact I didn't allow my opponent to fetch for a land. It's very powerful. Not to mention it stops cards like Chord of Calling, Expedition Map, Gifts Ungiven, Eye of Ugin, Summoner's Pact and Scapeshift. Oh yea and all of these;
It's definitely a preference card. If you haven't had much success with it, it might not be a card that fits your playstyle. At the very least it's just a cycle card for 2.
Be careful with how many Islands you run. It will bite you in the ass in a lot of games with Obliterator's quad B cast. Blood Moon is a card. It will definitely hurt you if resolved. With that being said, you have 3 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Thoughtseize, and 6 counter spells. If you suspect your opponent siding into Blood Moon in games 2 and 3 bring in your Countersqualls and just try and stop them from resolving it. I'm not 100% sure you want to be playing Dimir Charm in this deck. It really doesn't benefit you in any way. I also recommend that you run 2 Languish. Elves, Zoo, Collected Company, Jund, and BW Tokens are all real threats to this deck so you need to give them the attention they deserve.
EDIT: What do you feel about Vendilion Clique? I think it is more the midrange option than lili, but can fill partly the same roll as controlling their hand. You even get to look at it which I find amazingly powerful.
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
I'm sure Vendilion Clique could gain some spots in the deck, but honestly I would drop Geralf's Messenger before I dropped Liliana of the Veil. Maybe I'm just sentimental, but I have taken over plenty of games with her. I just don't see a one time swap out being as lasting of a threat like she is. Are there times where Vendilion Clique would be great? Of course, but there are too many scenarios that Liliana of the Veil is just the better choice.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
Sorcery: 11
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Tragic Slip
2x Shadow of Doubt
3x Mana Leak
3x Victim of Night
3x Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker: 2
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 12
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Geralf's Messenger
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Countersquall
2x Drown in Sorrow
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Slaughter Pact
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Spellskite
1x Surgical Extraction
You could drop an Inquisition of Kozilek and 1 Geralf's Messenger and add 2 Vendilion Clique if you want to test it. That would be where I would put them. Not to replace Liliana of the Veil though. You just need to be mindful when siding in cards like Night of Souls' Betrayal
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Watery Grave
Sorcery: 12
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant: 12
2x Remand
4x Victim of Night
3x Stubborn Denial
3x Thought Scour
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 12
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Bloodghast
1x Gurmag Angler
1x Tombstalker
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Countersquall
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Slaughter Pact
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Spellskite
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Dispel
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Illness in the Ranks
For all who was inquiring about a Thought Scour version of this deck. I did some long and hard thinking and this is what I came up with based on my experience with playing this deck.
I will definitely update it. Tonight I ran the Thought Scour version listed above and by far had the worst showing since I've built the deck. I went 2 and 3. I lost to Tron, Merfolk, and Esper Control. I beat Abzan and Grixis Delver. I am going to try a different version on Friday. It is listed below.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
Sorcery: 12
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Spell Snare
1x Slaughter Pact
4x Remand
3x Victim of Night
3x Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker: 2
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 12
3x Geralf's Messenger
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Tombstalker
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Shadow of Doubt
3x Disfigure
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Spellskite
1x Surgical Extraction
I haven't ran into any land issues, but like I said I will be testing the Gray Merchant of Asphodel this Friday. I doubt it will be an issue since they are just 1 of's. As far as Remand is concerned, I thought the extra draw power would be useful.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Drowned Catacomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
Sorcery: 12
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Smother
1x Kolaghan's Command
4x Remand
3x Victim of Night
2x Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker: 3
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 11
3x Geralf's Messenger
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Tombstalker
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Illness in the Ranks
2x Smother
2x Pyroclasm
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Snare
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Surgical Extraction
I realize he'll never be able to turn on Stubborn Denial like an undead Messenger can, but getting every other instant/sorcery in your graveyard turned on seems like a good trade. With only 3 delve guys in the current list, I'm sure you'll be able to manage the graveyard resource just fine.
All my good cards are in paper, which I don't really play anymore. So sadly I just mess around with sub-par budget lists on MODO while slowly building up my collection. Gonna be a long, long time before I have Liliana and Snappy online.
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Creeping Tar Pit
5x Swamp
3x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Watery Grave
Sorcery: 12
2x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Disfigure
3x Remand
2x Mana Leak
3x Victim of Night
1x Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker: 3
3x Liliana of the Veil
Creature: 10
3x Geralf's Messenger
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Shadow of Doubt
1x Illness in the Ranks
1x Dispel
1x Flashfreeze
1x Languish
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Countersquall
1x Spell Snare
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
Alright, the PPTQ is this Sunday. This is a build that I will be testing tomorrow night at Modern FNM. If it does well(1st or 2nd place), I will be taking this build to the PPTQ. I've done my very best to make most of the match-ups easier with still keeping the same basic concept of the deck alive.