Hmmmmmm. I like it. Have you tried moving Green to Red? By moving green to red, you open yourself to some new cards, and some good cards at that. It makes the deck move much faster because of cards like Akroan Crusader and Coordinated Assualt.
I've also got a GW heroic deck that I've been trying to whip into Modern playable shape. I'm really surprised that Solidarity of Heroes hasn't come up in this discussion. It's really fantastic, especially with Hardened Scales. You cast it on a heroic creature and instantly get 5 counters. I usually use it as an instant speed win condition.
Although I can't afford the mana base yet, I'm very strongly considering adding red to my deck. Although it's definitely the worst of the creatures, it'd be really nice to have four more heroic one-drops in Satyr Hoplite; Temur Battle Rage is amazing in any strategy that relies on swinging with big creatures; and Titan's Strength also seems really good.
The problem I've been having is that my deck can swing in for 86 damage on turn four (or even for, say, 21 through disruption), but cannot win before turn 4. That's just not good enough; even though the slogan is, "Modern is a turn 4 format," I feel that strategies like this have to be able to have the game mostly wrapped up by that time, or else we'll get completely flattened by decks with huge top ends like Tron (Ugin is the absolute **worst**), Eldrazi (All is Dust is also horrible to see), and so on.
Also, how competitive are you trying to make your deck? I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion of sideboard options. Pithing Needle is a must-have for shutting down Liliana of the Veil and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and it also hates on some other cards (e.g. it can give Ad Nauseam and Grishoalbrand decks a hard time by turning off their win conditions Lightning Storm and Borborygmos Enraged). You'll probably also want to try Eidolon of Rhetoric, which hoses some decks that give you a really hard time (e.g. Living End, because it turns off cascade) and it also stops the Ad Nauseam combo. Stony Silence is just obvious because it's in your colors and Affinity, Tron, etc. are huge problems. Kor Firewalker and Ordeal of Heliod are what I use to beat Burn. Beast Within seems like a necessary sideboard card too, because there are so many permanents that can cause serious problems that you might need to kill, from Liliana of the Veil to Blood Moon to Ensnaring Bridge. Giving the opponent a 3/3 is not a big downside in a Heroic deck designed to create some really big creatures (that hopefully have trample from Rancor or similar).
Finally, I'm a little surprised at how many creatures you're running vs. how many instants. I find that although I need enough creatures to be able to avoid mulligans, running too many means that my deck just dries up and can't win. A creature on turn 3 or later often feels like a dead draw. And what's the point of running so many protection spells when you don't have enough instants to make your creatures huge? I would definitely add back in a few copies of Defiant Strike to add gas to the fire. Also, Rancor really is a phenomenal card. I would consider adding a few copies in. It's better than having protection for just one turn, which still doesn't always get you through blockers if they have several colors, and its permanent +3/+1 (counting the trigger) is a lot better than the single trigger you get from protection spells.
1. I'm aware of Solidarity of Heroes but never considered it good enough for the deck.
Without Hardened Scales it doesn't do much while costing 2 mana, in it's place Vines of Vastwood seems much better as it can add a massive power boost while protecting the creature (and some fringe utility againt opponent's enchants/equips/pump spells).
2. I don't think that Red benefits the deck that much to justify splashing a third color (I actually think that Blue is a better addition but probably still isn't worth it).
3. I'm not sure how competitive it can be as it will probably never be as good as Infect or even Bogles but it can probably surprise some people with cards that aren't seeing play in other decks.
I haven't actually given much thought to the Sideboard but it should be pretty standard and in line with other G/W decks.
4. You are probably right abour the high creature count (I'll probably cut 5-6 creatures) although your deck seems a bit too creature-lite in opinion.
I also agree that the deck needs cantrips to keep going and not lose steam too quickly.
In my opinion Warriors' Lesson can be a better option than Defiant Strike and I want to try it out.
Rancor is also a great idea and should also be included.
5. About your deck, I'm not a fan of Lagonna-Band Trailblazer as a 0-power creature and would even prefer Seeker of the Way over it even though it's not heroic and costs more mana.
Another option is Hero of Iroas (even though his second ability won't be a factor).
I also think that Quirion Dryad is really good in this deck (unless you run too many mono-green spells) especially with Hardened Scales.
Another card I highly recommend is Prey's Vengeance which pumps and triggers heroic twice.
It should be good against board wipes and grow nicely with all the instants (with rebound to boot) in my deck.
On the other hand it isn't good if drawn late and doesn't synergize with Phalanx Leader like Quirion Dryad which it could replace.
I found this thread and I'll probably be contributing to it quite a bit, since I had a gloriously fun THS/KTK-standard Bant Heroic Counters deck (link in my sig, even) which sadly died when THS rotated out, and I'm trying to make the shift to modern. From what I remember of playing the standard version, my motto was "always use protection" so I maxed out on Gods Willing and Ajani's Presence. Aqueous Form was another bomb which actually made an opponent scoop once; placing it on a 10/10 was no joke, and the scry let me get protection spells more reliably. Ordeal of Thassa was also great, since with a heroic creature and Hardened Scales it immediately drew you 2 cards. But best of all was Solidarity of Heroes, which once let me win a game with a 31/31 Akroan Skyguard. I haven't come up with a decklist for Modern yet but I'll be searching through existing cards to see what's best.
edit: Ok, after some searching, if we want to max out on +1/+1 counters, there's something to be said for cards like Corpsejack Menace. I'd love Doubling Season but it's too highly costed, really. Combine Corpsejack with Solidarity of Heroes and we have a real party going. Not sure if that's practical though.
I'm actually trying to avoid 4-drops, 3-drops (besides Fabled Hero) and Aura's in this deck for efficiency's sake.
The deck isn't the fastest as it is and I don't want to slow it down.
The only Aura I might consider using is Hyena Umbra which is cheap and provides protection.
G/W version seems a bit slow with not enough cheap creatures (basically only Favored Hoplite and Myth Realized) so I want to test another version which seems more promising.
The W/U version uses better creatures like Battlewise Hoplite and Nivmagus Elemental
(which works very well with Heroic creatures as you can get the trigger and also exile the spell to grow him).
It also has a ton of unblockapble effects at the expense of less pump spells.
All the spells are 1-cmc (or less) except for Wings of Velis Vel which provides both evasion and power boost (basically a situationally better Mighty Leap).
It is the card I'm least sure about in the deck.
I have a fast RW heroic that utilizes pumps and can do turn four wins but is a terrible top deck.Its either win fast or lose fast.its still a work in progress but I'll post it tonight with some info on card choices.
Btw,d90dennis,seen you post in a few diffrent spots,i like some of your ideas,glad to see you in this thread. I've actually used a few of your ideas,and they've done well.keep em coming.
It's still a work in progress,i used to have 4 satyr in there but I don't like them much so I've slowly been replacing them.The guide is something new I'm trying.
I originally build it for my kid,its his first magic deck moving from pokemon,he can't read to well,hes too young, so I had to make it simple.After playing it a few times with him I found its actually a fast deck,but dies fast too.Hes pretty happy with it,he beats tron and affinity which he loves(one of my best friends favorite decks).
I've thought about YP or swiftspear but I haven't sleeved them yet.
In your RW do you find yourself topdecking alot?Ive been looking at card draw options and haven't found one yet.I found its either win turn 4-5 or lose,no middle ground.
I see potential in heroic.
Yes, lack of card draw and getting to top deck mode early are my main problems too.
The Scry 1 from Titan's Strength and Gods Willing helps draw into more relevant cards but is not enough.
I also have Abbot of Keral Keep which is kind of card draw but I don't often have 3 lands to fully utilize it.
A card I thought about adding is Expedite/Crimson Wisps as it can help get in some damage with a non-hasty creature while replacing itself, if it's useless it either cycles or can be fed to Nivmagus Elemental.
Another option can be Defiant Strike.
I will also probably replace Assault Strobe with Boros Charm for added versatility and instant speed (though I try to avoid 2-cmc spells in this deck for consistency and Abbot sunergy).
Nice to finally see some activity here, I've almost given up.
Here are my thoughts about the cards choices:
1. Creatures - I came to the conclusion that the heroic creatures outside of Favored Hoplite (and Battlewise Hoplite in W/U) are not good enough so I went with some prowess guys (Monastery Swiftspear, Abbot of Keral Keep and Seeker of the Way) that function well with and without targetting which makes them good alongside the "hero" as the backup creature. Nivmagus Elemental is actually very good in this deck as it can "eat" any spell for 2 counters while still getting the heroic/prowess trigger even if the spell doesn't get to resolve, it is also good against counterspells.
About the other heroic creatures: Lagonna-Band Trailblazer - the 0-power is a deal-breaker for me as it needs too much spells to become a threat, the immunity to L.Bolt is less relevant for me becuase I pack many protection spells to deal with removal anyway. Akroan Skyguard - is rather weak as a 1/1 and the built-in evasion (flying) isn't very necessary if there are enough evasion-granting (trample, pro-color and flying) spells in the deck. Hero of Iroas - is just a vanilla 2/2 heroic guy as the second ability is only relevant with 2+ cmc auras which I'm not going to run in the deck, too slow. Satyr Hoplite - vanilla 1/1 heroic, I see no reason to play him over the better Monastery Swiftspear and Nivmagus Elemental. Fabled Hero - can actually be a very powerful creature in the deck but at 3-cmc it is way too slow.
2. Spells - I've actually considered Hyena Umbra as it is probably the best aura for the deck (and is used in Bogles) but ultimately decided against it because it doesn't work with Nivmagus Elemental and I also prefer to operate at instant speed with my pump/protection spells (like Infect).
The core spells in my opinion are: Emerge Unscathed and Gods Willing for protecion and evasion (with Rebound and Scry 1 respectively) and Mutagenic Growth as a 0-mana pump spell that can also save from L.Bolt. Ajani's Presence is also a good protection spell (can protect from non-targeted removal like Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict) that also provides a small (+1/+1) power boost. Titan's Strength boosts power and provides a Scry which is important as we don't have card draw.
The other slots are more flexible and I decided to go with 2x Brute Force (the Red Giant Growth) which serves as more Mutagenic Growth and 2x Rush of Adrenaline (slightly better than Rouse the Mob as it won't be cast with "strive" anyway) for trample.
I also think that the deck needs to have manlands as backup in case our creatures get removed and we are left with useless pump spells, it is also good against edict effects like Liliana of the Veil. Mutavault makes the most sense with 2-power and cheap activation cost (in Green Treetop Village is good) as White and Red manlands are rather weak for their activation cost.
4 Phalanx Leader
4 Akroan Crusader
4 Fabled Hero
2 Anax and Cymede
2 Favored Hoplite
4 Coordinated Assault
4 Defiant Strike
4 Temur Battle Rage
3 Tormenting Voice
3 Hammerhand
3 Magmatic Insight
3 Scourge of the Nobilis
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Plains
4 Mountain
Here's my deck. This deck is great earlygame but terrible lategame.
I hold the job of resurrecting dead threads.
Formerly presumed dead, but also formerly presumed alive.
Also for this deck to work it needs to deal with removal which Red doesn't realy help with.
That's why I chose Green as my secondary color.
For your deck I would suggest checking out:
Boros Swiftblade, Martial Glory, Titan's Strength (Brute Force), Crimson Wisps, Blades of Velis Vel
and enchantments like:
Ordeal of Purphoros, Madcap Skills, Dust Corona, Furor of the Bitten and Taste for Mayhem.
Although I can't afford the mana base yet, I'm very strongly considering adding red to my deck. Although it's definitely the worst of the creatures, it'd be really nice to have four more heroic one-drops in Satyr Hoplite; Temur Battle Rage is amazing in any strategy that relies on swinging with big creatures; and Titan's Strength also seems really good.
The problem I've been having is that my deck can swing in for 86 damage on turn four (or even for, say, 21 through disruption), but cannot win before turn 4. That's just not good enough; even though the slogan is, "Modern is a turn 4 format," I feel that strategies like this have to be able to have the game mostly wrapped up by that time, or else we'll get completely flattened by decks with huge top ends like Tron (Ugin is the absolute **worst**), Eldrazi (All is Dust is also horrible to see), and so on.
Also, how competitive are you trying to make your deck? I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion of sideboard options. Pithing Needle is a must-have for shutting down Liliana of the Veil and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and it also hates on some other cards (e.g. it can give Ad Nauseam and Grishoalbrand decks a hard time by turning off their win conditions Lightning Storm and Borborygmos Enraged). You'll probably also want to try Eidolon of Rhetoric, which hoses some decks that give you a really hard time (e.g. Living End, because it turns off cascade) and it also stops the Ad Nauseam combo. Stony Silence is just obvious because it's in your colors and Affinity, Tron, etc. are huge problems. Kor Firewalker and Ordeal of Heliod are what I use to beat Burn. Beast Within seems like a necessary sideboard card too, because there are so many permanents that can cause serious problems that you might need to kill, from Liliana of the Veil to Blood Moon to Ensnaring Bridge. Giving the opponent a 3/3 is not a big downside in a Heroic deck designed to create some really big creatures (that hopefully have trample from Rancor or similar).
Finally, I'm a little surprised at how many creatures you're running vs. how many instants. I find that although I need enough creatures to be able to avoid mulligans, running too many means that my deck just dries up and can't win. A creature on turn 3 or later often feels like a dead draw. And what's the point of running so many protection spells when you don't have enough instants to make your creatures huge? I would definitely add back in a few copies of Defiant Strike to add gas to the fire. Also, Rancor really is a phenomenal card. I would consider adding a few copies in. It's better than having protection for just one turn, which still doesn't always get you through blockers if they have several colors, and its permanent +3/+1 (counting the trigger) is a lot better than the single trigger you get from protection spells.
Any thoughts? I'm not really happy with my current deck, but it's fun and I'm hoping to make it better; you can find it here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/362454#paper
In case you're wondering, cards I'm currently planning to test in my deck include Become Immense, Hyena Umbra, Bioshift (this actually looks really sweet! It's almost like a Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager. How did I not know about it?), and maybe Keen Sense. And I'd really like to splash red for Satyr Hoplite, Expedite, Temur Battle Rage, and Titan's Strength if that ever becomes possible.
I will address some of the points you've raised:
1. I'm aware of Solidarity of Heroes but never considered it good enough for the deck.
Without Hardened Scales it doesn't do much while costing 2 mana, in it's place Vines of Vastwood seems much better as it can add a massive power boost while protecting the creature (and some fringe utility againt opponent's enchants/equips/pump spells).
2. I don't think that Red benefits the deck that much to justify splashing a third color (I actually think that Blue is a better addition but probably still isn't worth it).
3. I'm not sure how competitive it can be as it will probably never be as good as Infect or even Bogles but it can probably surprise some people with cards that aren't seeing play in other decks.
I haven't actually given much thought to the Sideboard but it should be pretty standard and in line with other G/W decks.
4. You are probably right abour the high creature count (I'll probably cut 5-6 creatures) although your deck seems a bit too creature-lite in opinion.
I also agree that the deck needs cantrips to keep going and not lose steam too quickly.
In my opinion Warriors' Lesson can be a better option than Defiant Strike and I want to try it out.
Rancor is also a great idea and should also be included.
5. About your deck, I'm not a fan of Lagonna-Band Trailblazer as a 0-power creature and would even prefer
Seeker of the Way over it even though it's not heroic and costs more mana.
Another option is Hero of Iroas (even though his second ability won't be a factor).
I also think that Quirion Dryad is really good in this deck (unless you run too many mono-green spells) especially with Hardened Scales.
Another card I highly recommend is Prey's Vengeance which pumps and triggers heroic twice.
6. Another thing that can potentially improve the deck is including some Manlands to avoid sorcery speed removal and sink mana into once we start running out of gas.
Treetop Village seems to be the best candidate (or maybe Stirring Wildwood) over Forbidding Watchtower or Mutavault/Blinkmoth Nexus.
-2x Bramblewood Paragon, -3x Seeker of the Way, -2x Canopy Vista.
+2x Rancor, +1x Dromoka's Command, +2x Warriors' Lesson, +2x Treetop Village.
He is the updated build:
4x Fabled Hero
4x Favored Hoplite
4x Phalanx Leader
4x Quirion Dryad
1x Seeker of the Way
Enchantment (4)
2x Hardened Scales
2x Rancor
4x Dromoka's Command
4x Emerge Unscathed
3x Gods Willing
4x Prey's Vengeance
2x Vines of Vastwood
2x Warriors' Lesson
2x Treetop Village
1x Forest
5x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Will it be a good replacement for Quirion Dryad ?
It should be good against board wipes and grow nicely with all the instants (with rebound to boot) in my deck.
On the other hand it isn't good if drawn late and doesn't synergize with Phalanx Leader like Quirion Dryad which it could replace.
edit: Ok, after some searching, if we want to max out on +1/+1 counters, there's something to be said for cards like Corpsejack Menace. I'd love Doubling Season but it's too highly costed, really. Combine Corpsejack with Solidarity of Heroes and we have a real party going. Not sure if that's practical though.
The deck isn't the fastest as it is and I don't want to slow it down.
The only Aura I might consider using is Hyena Umbra which is cheap and provides protection.
It triggers of 23 cards in the deck compared to 24 with Quirion Dryad.
But it is also cheaper and only dies to instant speed removal.
It can also be a mana sink in case of flooding or if the game goes long.
Is it a good idea ?
I also consider splashing Blue for Battlewise Hoplite (instead of 1x Seeker of the Way and 3x Phalanx Leader), is it worth the less consistent manabase ?
If so how many blue sources should I add ? (will +2x Hallowed Fountain, -2x Plains be enough ?)
With these changes in mind (removing Quirion Dryad and Phalanx Leader) I'm not sure that Hardened Scales is worth it any more, what can be a good replacement ?
Here is the latest version of the deck (eventually I decided to cut Fabled Hero and Phalanx Leader for Myth Realized and Seeker of the Way):
4x Favored Hoplite
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Seeker of the Way
Enchantment (7)
4x Myth Realized
3x Rancor
4x Dromoka's Command
4x Emerge Unscathed
4x Gods Willing
4x Prey's Vengeance
2x Vines of Vastwood
3x Ajani's Presence
2x Treetop Village
2x Forest
4x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
The W/U version uses better creatures like Battlewise Hoplite and Nivmagus Elemental
(which works very well with Heroic creatures as you can get the trigger and also exile the spell to grow him).
It also has a ton of unblockapble effects at the expense of less pump spells.
Here it is:
4x Favored Hoplite
4x Nivmagus Elemental
4x Battlewise Hoplite
4x Seeker of the Way
Instant (18)
4x Ajani's Presence
4x Emerge Unscathed
4x Gods Willing
4x Mutagenic Growth
2x Wings of Velis Vel
4x Distortion Strike
4x Slip Through Space
Land (18)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Mutavault
2x Plains
4x Seachrome Coast
All the spells are 1-cmc (or less) except for Wings of Velis Vel which provides both evasion and power boost (basically a situationally better Mighty Leap).
It is the card I'm least sure about in the deck.
What do you think ?
4x Favored Hoplite
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Nivmagus Elemental
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
Instant (24)
4x Ajani's Presence
4x Emerge Unscathed
4x Gods Willing
4x Mutagenic Growth
4x Titan's Strength
2x Brute Force
2x Rush of Adrenaline
2x Assault Strobe
Land (18)
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Mountain
2x Mutavault
3x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
3x Windswept Heath
How can it be improved ?
Btw,d90dennis,seen you post in a few diffrent spots,i like some of your ideas,glad to see you in this thread. I've actually used a few of your ideas,and they've done well.keep em coming.
4 phalanx leader
2 monastery mentor
2 favored hoplite
1 satyr hoplite
1 legion loyalist
1 iroas, god of victory
4 brute force
4 artful maneuver
4 gods willing
2 brute strength
2 titan's strength
2 mighty leap
2 assault strobe
1 simian spirit guide
4 arid mesa
8 plains
4 mountain
It's still a work in progress,i used to have 4 satyr in there but I don't like them much so I've slowly been replacing them.The guide is something new I'm trying.
I originally build it for my kid,its his first magic deck moving from pokemon,he can't read to well,hes too young, so I had to make it simple.After playing it a few times with him I found its actually a fast deck,but dies fast too.Hes pretty happy with it,he beats tron and affinity which he loves(one of my best friends favorite decks).
I've thought about YP or swiftspear but I haven't sleeved them yet.
In your RW do you find yourself topdecking alot?Ive been looking at card draw options and haven't found one yet.I found its either win turn 4-5 or lose,no middle ground.
I see potential in heroic.
The Scry 1 from Titan's Strength and Gods Willing helps draw into more relevant cards but is not enough.
I also have Abbot of Keral Keep which is kind of card draw but I don't often have 3 lands to fully utilize it.
A card I thought about adding is Expedite/Crimson Wisps as it can help get in some damage with a non-hasty creature while replacing itself, if it's useless it either cycles or can be fed to Nivmagus Elemental.
Another option can be Defiant Strike.
I will also probably replace Assault Strobe with Boros Charm for added versatility and instant speed (though I try to avoid 2-cmc spells in this deck for consistency and Abbot sunergy).
Here are my thoughts about the cards choices:
1. Creatures - I came to the conclusion that the heroic creatures outside of Favored Hoplite (and Battlewise Hoplite in W/U) are not good enough so I went with some prowess guys (Monastery Swiftspear, Abbot of Keral Keep and Seeker of the Way) that function well with and without targetting which makes them good alongside the "hero" as the backup creature.
Nivmagus Elemental is actually very good in this deck as it can "eat" any spell for 2 counters while still getting the heroic/prowess trigger even if the spell doesn't get to resolve, it is also good against counterspells.
About the other heroic creatures:
Lagonna-Band Trailblazer - the 0-power is a deal-breaker for me as it needs too much spells to become a threat, the immunity to L.Bolt is less relevant for me becuase I pack many protection spells to deal with removal anyway.
Akroan Skyguard - is rather weak as a 1/1 and the built-in evasion (flying) isn't very necessary if there are enough evasion-granting (trample, pro-color and flying) spells in the deck.
Hero of Iroas - is just a vanilla 2/2 heroic guy as the second ability is only relevant with 2+ cmc auras which I'm not going to run in the deck, too slow.
Satyr Hoplite - vanilla 1/1 heroic, I see no reason to play him over the better Monastery Swiftspear and Nivmagus Elemental.
Fabled Hero - can actually be a very powerful creature in the deck but at 3-cmc it is way too slow.
2. Spells - I've actually considered Hyena Umbra as it is probably the best aura for the deck (and is used in Bogles) but ultimately decided against it because it doesn't work with Nivmagus Elemental and I also prefer to operate at instant speed with my pump/protection spells (like Infect).
The core spells in my opinion are: Emerge Unscathed and Gods Willing for protecion and evasion (with Rebound and Scry 1 respectively) and Mutagenic Growth as a 0-mana pump spell that can also save from L.Bolt.
Ajani's Presence is also a good protection spell (can protect from non-targeted removal like Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict) that also provides a small (+1/+1) power boost.
Titan's Strength boosts power and provides a Scry which is important as we don't have card draw.
The other slots are more flexible and I decided to go with 2x Brute Force (the Red Giant Growth) which serves as more Mutagenic Growth and 2x Rush of Adrenaline (slightly better than Rouse the Mob as it won't be cast with "strive" anyway) for trample.
I also think that the deck needs to have manlands as backup in case our creatures get removed and we are left with useless pump spells, it is also good against edict effects like Liliana of the Veil.
Mutavault makes the most sense with 2-power and cheap activation cost (in Green Treetop Village is good) as White and Red manlands are rather weak for their activation cost.