So like many other people, I'm on a quest to squeeze as much possible value out of collected company as possible and I was thinking about how successful so many of the delver lists have been lately. Many of the threats in these lists are insane if brought in with collected company, and the card itself can single handedly out value entire decks. With that, I've been experimenting with Temur and Sultai versions, and both are testing very well.
The main idea is VERY efficient creatures, instant speed interaction, and collected company to push us over the top or help us win top deck wars. As of right now, the deck is succeeding in playtesting on all fronts with these goals in mind.
The RUG and BUG decks both differ in some of their offerings, BUG opting for Confidants, Abrupt Decays and Murderous Cuts, and RUG looking at Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze and Savage Knuckleblade (who has been pretty cool in testing so far). In both decks I'm trying out a 1 of Skaab Ruinator (these lists are VERY creature heavy, so casting him from hand isn't difficult, and Cocoing into him feels amazing), abd looking at Simic Charms as well.
Does anyone think that this could actually be a pretty cool thing, or is it better to just forego CoCo entirely and just play lower to the ground midrange in these colors?
I'll post the full BUG list I've been using here. It's probably running too many lands. It's flooded out quite a few times, not enough to shut us down, but enough to make life rough. 19 might be just right.
I think that some more blue interaction might be better than the discard, either vapor snags, or more cheap counters (dispel, spell pierce, negate) but I need to keep testing more than anything.
Cheers and happy brewing!
EDIT:
I've actually been testing this quite a bit and I feel that BUG is definitely the way to go for a Blue Based Collected company deck, so I don't feel there's any reason to pursue the Temur version.
I like the idea, but unlike the really efficient CC decks (elves/abzan) these versions lack a clear vision. There's not enough creatures to fully take advantage of CC (~22 you'll most frequently get 1/0 and not 2). Snappy has good targets, but you wont be able to CC into snappy into a spell. I think you should start by taking a step back and asking what you want this deck to do.
He's not wrong. Take a look at this thread and see what others have to say on Snapcaster and Collected Company and why it isn't going to work. You ARE running a good amount of spells for Tiago, but when will you ever be flashing back Collected Company or some of those counters? Meaning now you actually have ~13 targets for snapcaster which is too low. You have 22 targets for your 3 CCs where the recommended amount is 28 and absolutely lowest you should ever be playing is 22. Off of only 20 lands you will be very stretched to ever get to 4 mana, especially with only 3 dorks. You are just weakening all of the strategies rather than building around very powerful ones (CC/Snapcaster). Maybe there is a good balance somewhere in there but it would be very inconsistent.
It hasn't felt inconsistent, but with only 10-15 games, over the long haul it certainly should be. I think fundamentally the deck is indeed flawed because I'm not looking to 'abuse' company in the same way that so many other decks are looking to, but rather just to use it as insurance for board wipes and or in late game situations to help break stalls. It's been able to do both of those things very well, but I've definitely whiffed a few times by hitting 1 hierarch or 1 snapcaster without any additional mana to abuse a flashback activation. It's probably better to just fully embrace a tempo based BUG shell than to try and jam company. Most of the time it wins without really needing it (even though it's nice to potentially hit a finks/goyf in the lategame).
Thanks for the feedback. I think this one is probably closed.
Collecting into value creatures would definitely be cool - in that instance, Kira does not work that way, whereas Judge's familiar or Curse Catcher would. As far as Bant company goes, I think everyone is looking at it only because of Geist, and I'm just not convinced he's good in this format right now. Too many big bodies in the way.
i think a mass appeal that draws people into this would be CCing for say a V-Click + Geist, untapping and Cyrptic Commanding down any blockers. i think there's a viable idea in that, although the line to walk as pointed out is keeping the creature count high. early game tempo + midgame disruption aiming for a turn 5-6 win seems like that sort of game plan. spells = cryptics, maybe boomerang for some early tempo (maybe azorious charm is a better idea here). creatures = Scooze, Goyf, Clique, Geist + somethings else with good evasion? perhaps thalias? it seems you want path but that would be a bit of a non-bo. vapor snags? anything to put stuff from play to the top of thier decks would be optimal.
What do we lose by leaving black and entering white? I think Bob is potentially great in a deck like this with so many things being low cost, we lose fulminators, and we lose abrupt decay. Are thalia, smiter, and geist better than the other three? Maybe. I like your creature count breakdown though, the higher count definitely makes the most of CC.
i think black is perfectly reasonable, so long as you can find <=3 CMC creatures that pack a punch, have relavant ETB effects, or have good evasion. i worry you might come up short finding better then knight or rhox or loxodon in terms of their size. i really think out tempo'ing our opponents is the path towards this kind deck winning games. Fulminators are fantastic for that, i totally agree. Bob would be good for those times you dont hit a CC.
Agreed. I'll try it out on cockatrice later this evening.
Other creatures I'm currently considering:
Coiling Oracle
Judge's Familiar
Courser of Kruphix
Shadowmage Infiltrator (I've always wanted it to work)
Thassa
So I ran this quite a few times tonight and didn't really have any problems and worked pretty much as I wanted. It comes out of the gate like an aggro deck and establishes board presence/card advantage VERY quickly, and it's possibly to play through MULTIPLE board wipes. I played an Esper Control opponent who in our 2 game series successfully casted 3 supreme verdicts, 1 wrath, 1 White sun's zenith for 6, and an Elesh Norn, and I fought through all of it. Here's the list:
Some thoughts: the sideboard is not at all tuned for anything, just things I thought might be cool to try in various places. I like the cryptics in the side, and the fulminators make a lot of sense in helping some of our poorer matchups out (tron, amulet), and spellskite stops a whole lot of decks cold and gets hit by CC, but I'm not sure about any of the rest. Honestly, V Cliques work much better here than discard, so the inquisitions don't really do much. Also not sure if Thassa is too cute or not. Other than that, pulling an abrupt decay for a one of Maelstrom Pulse is probably good, and I think I might rather have one of the Simic Charms be a boomerang or another Cryptic (wary of the cryptic because of curve, but I'm not sure). Anyway, the deck plays very well. Grinds hard. Fast pressure. Answers. I think it's worth exploring. Thanks for suggesting the drop of Snapcasters, definitely a good call.
Maybe I'm placing value too high on this card, but Renegade Doppelganger has some really neat synergies with cards played in UGx style CC's. With a Geist token its an extra 4/4 flier everytime you attack (an attacking 3/3 first striker the turn Blade Splicer comes down). turn 2 Doppelganger into turn 3 Knight lets you tutor up and use Ghost Quarter turn 3 (assuming you used a fetch at this point your knight is now a 5/5). It's ridonkulous tempo with Fulminator Mage (a turn 3 double stone rain will just flat out win a decent percentage of your games). Its an Scooze for a turn but it will keep the tokens it gains (breaking any Goyf mirrors when you land one). I really dislike Shadowmage Infiltrator, but turn 3 recouping cards is sweet. CC during upkeep (maye/maybe not?) with it in play and land a Bob? It will double any exhalted triggers with Noble Hierarch. Even just as an extra bear crashing in as a copy of finks or voice still gives it some value (it'll persist back as a 0/1 or give you a token should it die in combat).
and if someone wastes a removal spell on it, all the better.
t1 noble, t2 clique, t3 CC into doppelganger + geist. t4 Scooze + counters on doppleganger post attack or hold up a Unified Will or remand? or just cryptic command at that point. If they kill your creatures, presumably they'll leave doppelganger which makes any creature draw of yours live. GG.
edit: while not a 3CMC, straight casting a Wilt-Leaf Liege with a doppelganger in play makes him a 6/6, and your WG greatures all get +4/+4. landing a wilt-leaf with a board of pridemage, finks and doppleganger means you're swinging for 19 that turn. It's also 19 on t4 in the previous example (i believe) with one hexproff creature and some hand interaction with your opponent. that aint too shabby.
Admittedly, infiltrator is in there for funsies. His cost is probably spent better somewhere else, but if he could POTENTIALLY work in any type of modern shell, I think it's this one.
Still not sure about the board, but the main feels pretty solid against most of the field. Doesn't lose to twin, can grind with BG(x), can pressure affinity, has lifegain against burn..
As a long time fan of dark bant zoo, I threw this together.
It's reasonable. Using refecting pool, the mana base is particularly vulnerable to tectonic edge / ghost quarter but with birds and noble you have a little padding. I'd love to use Ziggeraut but then you couldn't reliably cast CoCo.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Collected Company
3 Dark Confidant
2 Rafiq of the Many
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Forest
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Abzan Charm
1 Sultai Charm
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rhox War Monk
The main idea is VERY efficient creatures, instant speed interaction, and collected company to push us over the top or help us win top deck wars. As of right now, the deck is succeeding in playtesting on all fronts with these goals in mind.
The core of both decks looks like this:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Collected Company
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
The RUG and BUG decks both differ in some of their offerings, BUG opting for Confidants, Abrupt Decays and Murderous Cuts, and RUG looking at Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze and Savage Knuckleblade (who has been pretty cool in testing so far). In both decks I'm trying out a 1 of Skaab Ruinator (these lists are VERY creature heavy, so casting him from hand isn't difficult, and Cocoing into him feels amazing), abd looking at Simic Charms as well.
Does anyone think that this could actually be a pretty cool thing, or is it better to just forego CoCo entirely and just play lower to the ground midrange in these colors?
I'll post the full BUG list I've been using here. It's probably running too many lands. It's flooded out quite a few times, not enough to shut us down, but enough to make life rough. 19 might be just right.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Skaab Ruinator
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
Noncreature (18):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Collected Company
1 Murderous Cut
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Thragtusk
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Spellskite
I think that some more blue interaction might be better than the discard, either vapor snags, or more cheap counters (dispel, spell pierce, negate) but I need to keep testing more than anything.
Cheers and happy brewing!
EDIT:
I've actually been testing this quite a bit and I feel that BUG is definitely the way to go for a Blue Based Collected company deck, so I don't feel there's any reason to pursue the Temur version.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Thanks for the feedback. I think this one is probably closed.
That seems the direction you want to start off with for bant versions of the CC deck.
Although now that I think of it, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner may not work the way I think it does as a resposne to a creature of yours being targeted.
Either way, a strat of going wide early with efficient creatures and then disruption via counterspells seems the best idea, with CC adding value.
just some thoughts here
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Eternal Witness
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Skaab Ruinator
2x Breeding Pool
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Gavony Township
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
2x Boomerang
4x Collected Company
2x Cryptic Command
4x Vapor Snag
it seems like it needs to be faster. perhaps Become Immense could have a place here??
Other creatures I'm currently considering:
Coiling Oracle
Judge's Familiar
Courser of Kruphix
Shadowmage Infiltrator (I've always wanted it to work)
Thassa
Thanks for the ideas!
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Collected Company
2 Go for the Throat
3 Simic Charm
Creature (27):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Skaab Ruinator
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Spellskite
2 Cryptic Command
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
Some thoughts: the sideboard is not at all tuned for anything, just things I thought might be cool to try in various places. I like the cryptics in the side, and the fulminators make a lot of sense in helping some of our poorer matchups out (tron, amulet), and spellskite stops a whole lot of decks cold and gets hit by CC, but I'm not sure about any of the rest. Honestly, V Cliques work much better here than discard, so the inquisitions don't really do much. Also not sure if Thassa is too cute or not. Other than that, pulling an abrupt decay for a one of Maelstrom Pulse is probably good, and I think I might rather have one of the Simic Charms be a boomerang or another Cryptic (wary of the cryptic because of curve, but I'm not sure). Anyway, the deck plays very well. Grinds hard. Fast pressure. Answers. I think it's worth exploring. Thanks for suggesting the drop of Snapcasters, definitely a good call.
and if someone wastes a removal spell on it, all the better.
t1 noble, t2 clique, t3 CC into doppelganger + geist. t4 Scooze + counters on doppleganger post attack or hold up a Unified Will or remand? or just cryptic command at that point. If they kill your creatures, presumably they'll leave doppelganger which makes any creature draw of yours live. GG.
edit: while not a 3CMC, straight casting a Wilt-Leaf Liege with a doppelganger in play makes him a 6/6, and your WG greatures all get +4/+4. landing a wilt-leaf with a board of pridemage, finks and doppleganger means you're swinging for 19 that turn. It's also 19 on t4 in the previous example (i believe) with one hexproff creature and some hand interaction with your opponent. that aint too shabby.
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Collected Company
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Skaab Ruinator
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Go for the Throat
3 Simic Charm
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Nature's Claim
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Spellskite
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
Still not sure about the board, but the main feels pretty solid against most of the field. Doesn't lose to twin, can grind with BG(x), can pressure affinity, has lifegain against burn..
As a long time fan of dark bant zoo, I threw this together.
It's reasonable. Using refecting pool, the mana base is particularly vulnerable to tectonic edge / ghost quarter but with birds and noble you have a little padding. I'd love to use Ziggeraut but then you couldn't reliably cast CoCo.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Collected Company
3 Dark Confidant
2 Rafiq of the Many
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Forest
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Abzan Charm
1 Sultai Charm
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rhox War Monk
what about adding thing in ice + vampire hexmage in this company?