1st thing you'll notice is the inclusion of Thing in the Ice and only 17 lands. I really love Thing because he becomes a removal magnet and draws attention away from Delver while he gets in there. If Thing doesn't get delt with he flips real easy in this deck. Delver decks already run low on lands so maximizing the number of spells to flip delver and thing becomes a "2 birds with 1 stone" deal. I had a game where i used A.Vision into 2 Goyfs and it was a beautiful site to win the following round also beating down with both flipped delver and thing. I'll continue to play on xmage and update with new changed and opinions on the deck.
Well, most force of will decks in legacy don't play more than 16 blue cards beside force, so shoal should be supported enough. And that is without counting pitching shoal to shoal. But if you really want to tune it up you might want to switch out the baubles for 2 more thought scours, thats 2 additional blue spells that should help fighting bolt and path. Disfigure could be Vapor Snag. so theres room to switch some things around. With all the Kiki-Chord, Abzan Company and EtB effect optimizing decks out there i feel that vapor snag is a bad choice though. Cutting 1 Flayer 1 DC for 2 Snapcaster Mage might address this issue too, but reduces the number of must answer threats.
I don't know where you got the traverse or go for the throat from or if you are just listing random cards that could be reasonable to splash, so i don't know what you actually tested, but i haven't had Problems supporting shoal in threat-low draws, while in threat heavy draws you are able to just push through removal.
You say it's tested fine for you so far, but does that testing include any event results? PPTQs? Local monthlies? Would like to hear more about the testing!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
If you're on a grind plan post sideboard, Ancestral Visions is pretty good at doing that. However I'm not sure if you want to sideboard a bunch of lands when you can just tweak your deck a little according to the matchup. Vision lets you go long for only one mana, as well as comboing with Shoal to counter opposing Vision. Side boarding some number of hand disruption spells goes a long way in the combo matchups and when you want to ride a Bob/Goyf to victory. If you thought Shoaling their first removal spell was good, how about taking it and countering their second spell?
I know, I linked it for the discussion about the Grixis list especially, since a lot of it pertains to what you're trying to do here (including the section on Shoal math vs. Force math).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I just think we need more blue cards with Shoal than we do with FoW, for a couple reasons:
- It's less crucial to interact on turn zero in Modern than it is in Legacy
- Shoal demands a specific casting cost. When playing 8 one-drops and 7 two-drops (hypothetical), that's not 15 blue cards for Shoal when you want to counter your opponent's one- or two-drop spell. It's either 7 or 8
- Modern is an overall faster format than Legacy. Shoal must pretty much be guaranteed live on turns two-four to warrant inclusion, or else it's a dead card in hand against, potentially, one of the format's many linear decks that force you to interact as much as possible
I agree though the author could have fleshed all that out in the article. He is pretty lazy IMO
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've spent a lot of time the past two weeks brewing Sultai Delver, and have gotten it to about a 50% win percentage on xmage. Haven't taken it to my LGS yet, as I'm waiting for cards to arrive in the mail. Our builds are similar, but with some key differences I'd like to ask you about.
1. Snapcaster. I decided Snap wasn't worth it. I also run 18 lands, so he's a bit expensive to use properly. And, honestly, I haven't found that the things you can flashback in this deck are that impactful. We don't get Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile, and we would rarely, if ever, have enough mana to flashback a bomb like Cryptic. I went with Dark Confidant instead. He's another "must answer" turn 2 creature; our avg. CMC is absurdly low; and he provides actual card advantage, whereas Snap is virtual. From what I understand, the only reason Grixis Delver DOESN'T run Bob is because of the high CMC of the delve creatures. We're not pushed into that corner. Have you had success with Snap in this build?
2. What's your rationale behind running Gitaxian Probe? Again, we don't need the "free" spell for delve. Why not an impactful card like Inquisition or Thoughtseize? Looking at BUG Delver in Legacy, you often see Bob, you always see discard, and you almost never see Gitaxian Probe.
I'd really, really like to get this deck semi-competitive, as I love this color combo and think that Blossoming Defense and Grim Flayer have given Delver the chance to be viable. Any insights you can offer would be very appreciated.
I've spent a lot of time the past two weeks brewing Sultai Delver, and have gotten it to about a 50% win percentage on xmage. Haven't taken it to my LGS yet, as I'm waiting for cards to arrive in the mail. Our builds are similar, but with some key differences I'd like to ask you about.
1. Snapcaster. I decided Snap wasn't worth it. I also run 18 lands, so he's a bit expensive to use properly. And, honestly, I haven't found that the things you can flashback in this deck are that impactful. We don't get Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile, and we would rarely, if ever, have enough mana to flashback a bomb like Cryptic. I went with Dark Confidant instead. He's another "must answer" turn 2 creature; our avg. CMC is absurdly low; and he provides actual card advantage, whereas Snap is virtual. From what I understand, the only reason Grixis Delver DOESN'T run Bob is because of the high CMC of the delve creatures. We're not pushed into that corner. Have you had success with Snap in this build?
2. What's your rationale behind running Gitaxian Probe? Again, we don't need the "free" spell for delve. Why not an impactful card like Inquisition or Thoughtseize? Looking at BUG Delver in Legacy, you often see Bob, you always see discard, and you almost never see Gitaxian Probe.
I'd really, really like to get this deck semi-competitive, as I love this color combo and think that Blossoming Defense and Grim Flayer have given Delver the chance to be viable. Any insights you can offer would be very appreciated.
Snapcaster Mage does not provide "virtual" card advantage. He provides hard card advantage.
On discard: Delver is a tempo deck that wants to play threats and then disrupt opponents. If you want to run stuff like IoK and TS, which are best used early in the game, you might as well run higher-curve threats like Scavenging Ooze or Clique and play a midrange deck. You're already headed in that direction with Bob anyway (who really isn't a tempo card without free permission available since he's so expensive).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey! New to playing Sultai but I've been toying with a RUG Monkey/Delver deck for a while now. What is the consensus on running Tombstalker like the legacy version tends to do? 5/5 flying seems like a contender in the current meta, would Disrupting Shoal and Stubborn Denial be enough to back it up?
Explanation of choices: 19 lands. I don't feel comfortable playing fewer with Snapcaster, and I like the flexibility of a 1x Clique. I played a version of this deck at a small tournament on Monday, and though it performed relatively well, I got repeatedly mana-screwed on 18 lands.
4x Blossoming Defense. In my opinion, the main reason that BUG Delver can be viable. I'm curious about cutting one for a singleton Become Immense, but so far I've been happy with 4.
2x Vapor Snag. Shores up holes in our removal. Value with Snapcaster. Last-ditch protection for a threat.
1x Vendetta. A seemingly odd choice that has performed well in testing. Offers the flexibility to kill a larger creature, and also an early, small threat without taking 4 damage a la Dismember.
2x Flayers. An excellent card, and another reason that I feel this deck now has legs. I've settled on two to lessen the conflict with:
2x Hooting Mandrills. I wanted a bigger threat that I didn't need to enable; Delirium can be surprisingly difficult to achieve in a deck that doesn't want to run planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments. Why monkeys over zombie-fish or Tasigur? They trample, and I'm playing four pump-spells. I could see an argument for Tasigur, though.
So I've been playing around with a list of Sultai Delver that makes use of of the new card Fatal Push. I'm not sure if it's good enough, but this is what I've been brewing. It kind of reminds me of the the old Monkey Grow list, but with a few updates and personal twists.
The one-offs while nice could be Abrupt Decays and dropping a Mana Leak/Stuborn and the Sleigh of Hand could give us room for one more land, another delve Threat and Collected Brutality.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
To maximize the curve of blue spells in order to fight with Shoal a bunch of threats. If modern becomes a 3 cmc threat format, Shoal does nothing with a hand full of casters, snapback, remand and so on.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Wow, that's embarrassing haha. I'm not 100% sold that it couldn't be run as a 2-of in BUG delver though. It's an instant speed cantrip tutor that dumps five cards into your graveyard, There's a lot to like there. You can turn 2 EOT it directly into a Tasigur, huge Goyf, delerium-enabled Flayer, etc. for turn 3. That doesn't seem that slow to me. Am I missing something?
Wow, that's embarrassing haha. I'm not 100% sold that it couldn't be run as a 2-of in BUG delver though. It's an instant speed cantrip tutor that dumps five cards into your graveyard, There's a lot to like there. You can turn 2 EOT it directly into a Tasigur, huge Goyf, delerium-enabled Flayer, etc. for turn 3. That doesn't seem that slow to me. Am I missing something?
No, it seems like you are aware that it costs 2 mana. You're just wrong in assuming it's efficient enough for any non-graveyard strategy (and even any of those). Run them and see for yourself 🤓
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It looks like you are posting in the wrong thread. That build is closer to BUG Midrange, not Delver. Especially because it, you know, doesn't contain Delver.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
Sorceries x12
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants x15
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Thought Scour
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Cryptic Command
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cryptic Command
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Reclamation Sage
3 Feed the Clan
1st thing you'll notice is the inclusion of Thing in the Ice and only 17 lands. I really love Thing because he becomes a removal magnet and draws attention away from Delver while he gets in there. If Thing doesn't get delt with he flips real easy in this deck. Delver decks already run low on lands so maximizing the number of spells to flip delver and thing becomes a "2 birds with 1 stone" deal. I had a game where i used A.Vision into 2 Goyfs and it was a beautiful site to win the following round also beating down with both flipped delver and thing. I'll continue to play on xmage and update with new changed and opinions on the deck.
You say it's tested fine for you so far, but does that testing include any event results? PPTQs? Local monthlies? Would like to hear more about the testing!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
- It's less crucial to interact on turn zero in Modern than it is in Legacy
- Shoal demands a specific casting cost. When playing 8 one-drops and 7 two-drops (hypothetical), that's not 15 blue cards for Shoal when you want to counter your opponent's one- or two-drop spell. It's either 7 or 8
- Modern is an overall faster format than Legacy. Shoal must pretty much be guaranteed live on turns two-four to warrant inclusion, or else it's a dead card in hand against, potentially, one of the format's many linear decks that force you to interact as much as possible
I agree though the author could have fleshed all that out in the article. He is pretty lazy IMO
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
1. Snapcaster. I decided Snap wasn't worth it. I also run 18 lands, so he's a bit expensive to use properly. And, honestly, I haven't found that the things you can flashback in this deck are that impactful. We don't get Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile, and we would rarely, if ever, have enough mana to flashback a bomb like Cryptic. I went with Dark Confidant instead. He's another "must answer" turn 2 creature; our avg. CMC is absurdly low; and he provides actual card advantage, whereas Snap is virtual. From what I understand, the only reason Grixis Delver DOESN'T run Bob is because of the high CMC of the delve creatures. We're not pushed into that corner. Have you had success with Snap in this build?
2. What's your rationale behind running Gitaxian Probe? Again, we don't need the "free" spell for delve. Why not an impactful card like Inquisition or Thoughtseize? Looking at BUG Delver in Legacy, you often see Bob, you always see discard, and you almost never see Gitaxian Probe.
I'd really, really like to get this deck semi-competitive, as I love this color combo and think that Blossoming Defense and Grim Flayer have given Delver the chance to be viable. Any insights you can offer would be very appreciated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage#Virtual_card_advantage
On discard: Delver is a tempo deck that wants to play threats and then disrupt opponents. If you want to run stuff like IoK and TS, which are best used early in the game, you might as well run higher-curve threats like Scavenging Ooze or Clique and play a midrange deck. You're already headed in that direction with Bob anyway (who really isn't a tempo card without free permission available since he's so expensive).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Something like this for example:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
4x Thought Scour
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
4x Disrupting Shoal
4x Mana Leak
2x Murderous Cut
4x Abrupt Decay
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Flayer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Serum Visions
4 Blossoming Defense
2 Vapor Snag
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thought Scour
1 Vendetta
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Mana Leak
Explanation of choices: 19 lands. I don't feel comfortable playing fewer with Snapcaster, and I like the flexibility of a 1x Clique. I played a version of this deck at a small tournament on Monday, and though it performed relatively well, I got repeatedly mana-screwed on 18 lands.
4x Blossoming Defense. In my opinion, the main reason that BUG Delver can be viable. I'm curious about cutting one for a singleton Become Immense, but so far I've been happy with 4.
2x Vapor Snag. Shores up holes in our removal. Value with Snapcaster. Last-ditch protection for a threat.
1x Vendetta. A seemingly odd choice that has performed well in testing. Offers the flexibility to kill a larger creature, and also an early, small threat without taking 4 damage a la Dismember.
2x Flayers. An excellent card, and another reason that I feel this deck now has legs. I've settled on two to lessen the conflict with:
2x Hooting Mandrills. I wanted a bigger threat that I didn't need to enable; Delirium can be surprisingly difficult to achieve in a deck that doesn't want to run planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments. Why monkeys over zombie-fish or Tasigur? They trample, and I'm playing four pump-spells. I could see an argument for Tasigur, though.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells(30)
4 Fatal Push
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mana Leak
2 Simic Charm
1 Eyeblight's Ending
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
The one-offs while nice could be Abrupt Decays and dropping a Mana Leak/Stuborn and the Sleigh of Hand could give us room for one more land, another delve Threat and Collected Brutality.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
It's too expensive for Modern.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
Creatures = 19
4 Architects of Will
4 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Serum Visions
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Negate
Have you considered using Death's Shadow here ?
It is doing really well right now in "Jund" and also "Grixis" (so why not in "Sultai" as well ?).
You can probably slot it in this deck over Grim Flayer with some adjustment to the manabase (more fetches+shocks) and maxing out on Thoughtseize.
Some Street Wraith might be necessary as well (not sure what to cut for them, maybe some Serum Visions/Architects of Will) and maybe Traverse the Ulvenwald as well (over Stubborn Denial).
Thought Scour would also be good here.
It looks like you are posting in the wrong thread. That build is closer to BUG Midrange, not Delver. Especially because it, you know, doesn't contain Delver.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow