What did you play against? I've got a pptq I'm playing in this weekend.
I was thinking 2 in the side. In the rug delver deck they use huntmaster specifically for decks that play path.
I agree about the deck not having enough reach as there is no direct damage like Grixis or RUG. I feel like the only reason to play it is because of how much money I've spent on Goyfs.
I played a 4 round Modern event last week and here is a tournament report.
R1 vs Burn
Game 1 he goose fetch, Stomping Ground, goblin guide and I groan. Guide nets me a land, I play my own fetch and pass. He drops another guide and comes in for 4. I end step crack for an Island, Scour myself, then drop another fetch, crack it, drop Mandrills. I slowly eke out advantage until he Atarka's Commands his guides to block my mandrills, after which I have another. The game gets close but I close with a Shoal pitching Chsrm on a Boros charm.
G2 is a blowout in my favor as I open with two fetches, scour, mandrills, vampiric link and stubborn denial. Fetch, scour and t2 mandrills with Denial backup then link up mandrills for beats was game.
G2 vs Abzan/Mardu midrange
G1 I get Thiughtseized t1 and am beaten to death by Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary as I flood out.
G2 is pretty much the same.
I walked away from this game realizing I need ways to "out-midrange" a midrange deck. I played without Snaps this tournament and missed them this round.
G3 vs Rakdos Artifacts
Strange deck that played Ravager, Ornithopter, burn, and thunderous wrath (in 3 games he managed 5 or 6 of these miracles off the top - I tilted a bit)
G1 he bolts my t1 delver, thunderous wraths my Tasigur, ditto on my Mandrills, then burns me out.
G2 I draw multiple threats and he can't keep up with 6/7 Goyfs.
G3 is a repeat of g1. I saw multiple miracles wraths this game too.
G4 vs Storm
This was a really awkward match. I realized while shuffling his sleeves were different colors - some were bright white and others were an off-white. I make a mental note of it but move on. After all, we are at the 2-2 table...
G1 is a little drawn out as I repeatedly answer his permanents but ultimately lose to an electromancer that I had no removal for and he combos out.
G2 I play t1 probe and see he kept a 1 lander with a ton of gas. He sleights and makes his second land drop on time and every land drop he needs thereafter, but he scoops after I thought scour in response to him storming out to kill a Tas and Goyf. We do a quick recount and we realize they still would have died but he wrapped turn with no cards in hand. Scoop stands and we move to g3. I flip through his bin after the game and realize that the lands all have older sleeves on them but the spells had crisp, white sleeves. I grab judge and pull him aside to let him know, but don't feel comfortable calling he opponent out as we are still at the 2-2 table...
G3 he plays tarn and passes. I probe and see no lands. He end step fetches and main phase sleights. Puts an older sleeved card in hand then plays his land (same card he drew). The same behavior continues for a bit. He starts combining off and I call the judge. We begin to thumb through the deck, and I'm pulling cars off the top asking if they are lands for the judge to verify. Turns out, not all of the older sleeved cards were lands - there were two dispels that were in older sleeves too. (Clearly sideboard cards). Judge flips through and the rest of the older sleeved cards in the deck were lands. Judge rules a game loss for the opponent and instructs him to change sleeves before next event, threatens to ban he opponent from next event if he gets caught again. Opponent pleads innocence claiming bad eyesight and asks me to help him flip through his deck and ID the suspicious sleeves. I politely (but not too politely) decline and walk away.
So that's it - part of me felt only a little bit bad about how the last round went but part of me is still fuming about getting cheated game 1. I've never had to call out a cheater before but to me this was pretty blatant. What's worse is it seemed like my round 3 opponent was pretty buddy-buddy with the cheater I played round 4, and I suspected some funny business with all the top decked miracles I saw vs him but have no proof.
Some final thoughts on the deck:
I played 18 lands (9 fetches, 4 basics, 4 shocks, 1 check land) and felt like I was drawing a lot of land. I've trimmed back down to 17.
Shoal was either incredible or a dud. No in-between.
Charms felt strained pulling double (triple?) duty between: protecting threats, bounce, and pitching to shoal. Maybe some hard removal is in order to ease the workload on the charm.
I missed Snapcaster.
I have been tinkering with numbers that allow us to run Shackles - cutting Shoal may be in order - and upping island count to support the artifact in question. Between Chsrm and Denial, we should be able to protect Shackles, and this occupies two needed gaps in the deck: it works as pseudo-removal and another (relatively cheap) win condition which also lets us "out-midrange" the midrange decks.
I played a 4 round Modern event last week and here is a tournament report.
R1 vs Burn
Game 1 he goose fetch, Stomping Ground, goblin guide and I groan. Guide nets me a land, I play my own fetch and pass. He drops another guide and comes in for 4. I end step crack for an Island, Scour myself, then drop another fetch, crack it, drop Mandrills. I slowly eke out advantage until he Atarka's Commands his guides to block my mandrills, after which I have another. The game gets close but I close with a Shoal pitching Chsrm on a Boros charm.
G2 is a blowout in my favor as I open with two fetches, scour, mandrills, vampiric link and stubborn denial. Fetch, scour and t2 mandrills with Denial backup then link up mandrills for beats was game.
G2 vs Abzan/Mardu midrange
G1 I get Thiughtseized t1 and am beaten to death by Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary as I flood out.
G2 is pretty much the same.
I walked away from this game realizing I need ways to "out-midrange" a midrange deck. I played without Snaps this tournament and missed them this round.
G3 vs Rakdos Artifacts
Strange deck that played Ravager, Ornithopter, burn, and thunderous wrath (in 3 games he managed 5 or 6 of these miracles off the top - I tilted a bit)
G1 he bolts my t1 delver, thunderous wraths my Tasigur, ditto on my Mandrills, then burns me out.
G2 I draw multiple threats and he can't keep up with 6/7 Goyfs.
G3 is a repeat of g1. I saw multiple miracles wraths this game too.
G4 vs Storm
This was a really awkward match. I realized while shuffling his sleeves were different colors - some were bright white and others were an off-white. I make a mental note of it but move on. After all, we are at the 2-2 table...
G1 is a little drawn out as I repeatedly answer his permanents but ultimately lose to an electromancer that I had no removal for and he combos out.
G2 I play t1 probe and see he kept a 1 lander with a ton of gas. He sleights and makes his second land drop on time and every land drop he needs thereafter, but he scoops after I thought scour in response to him storming out to kill a Tas and Goyf. We do a quick recount and we realize they still would have died but he wrapped turn with no cards in hand. Scoop stands and we move to g3. I flip through his bin after the game and realize that the lands all have older sleeves on them but the spells had crisp, white sleeves. I grab judge and pull him aside to let him know, but don't feel comfortable calling he opponent out as we are still at the 2-2 table...
G3 he plays tarn and passes. I probe and see no lands. He end step fetches and main phase sleights. Puts an older sleeved card in hand then plays his land (same card he drew). The same behavior continues for a bit. He starts combining off and I call the judge. We begin to thumb through the deck, and I'm pulling cars off the top asking if they are lands for the judge to verify. Turns out, not all of the older sleeved cards were lands - there were two dispels that were in older sleeves too. (Clearly sideboard cards). Judge flips through and the rest of the older sleeved cards in the deck were lands. Judge rules a game loss for the opponent and instructs him to change sleeves before next event, threatens to ban he opponent from next event if he gets caught again. Opponent pleads innocence claiming bad eyesight and asks me to help him flip through his deck and ID the suspicious sleeves. I politely (but not too politely) decline and walk away.
So that's it - part of me felt only a little bit bad about how the last round went but part of me is still fuming about getting cheated game 1. I've never had to call out a cheater before but to me this was pretty blatant. What's worse is it seemed like my round 3 opponent was pretty buddy-buddy with the cheater I played round 4, and I suspected some funny business with all the top decked miracles I saw vs him but have no proof.
Some final thoughts on the deck:
I played 18 lands (9 fetches, 4 basics, 4 shocks, 1 check land) and felt like I was drawing a lot of land. I've trimmed back down to 17.
Shoal was either incredible or a dud. No in-between.
Charms felt strained pulling double (triple?) duty between: protecting threats, bounce, and pitching to shoal. Maybe some hard removal is in order to ease the workload on the charm.
I missed Snapcaster.
I have been tinkering with numbers that allow us to run Shackles - cutting Shoal may be in order - and upping island count to support the artifact in question. Between Chsrm and Denial, we should be able to protect Shackles, and this occupies two needed gaps in the deck: it works as pseudo-removal and another (relatively cheap) win condition which also lets us "out-midrange" the midrange decks.
This thread seems to have faded into obscurity these past few weeks. Anyhow I'm still tweaking it. I've been testing two Agony Warp main and two Disdainful Stroke side.
Anything that runs Delve creatures as a win con
Twin? (Haven't tested this yet. Hits Cryptic, Splinter Twin, Keranos)
Tron
Scapeshift
Board is set up like this right now:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Vampiric Link
1 Dispel
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Stubborn Denial
1 undecided - 2nd Dispel? 3rd Agony Warp?
I am liking Agony Warp a lot right now as my meta has a lot of Affinity, Fish, and Elf Aggro and AW is great at blanking attack steps to give our team enough turns to get through for lethal. Killing an x/3 and blanking the other 3/x is a lot better in this type of deck than going 1-for-1 with the opponent with Abrupt Decay or Simic Charm. That being said I am still running both those cards too. It also works well on offense, allowing out Mandrills to trample through just a little bit more.
Round 1: 1-2 vs infect.
G1: can't kill inkmoth nexus.
G2: t2 tasigur, t3 goyf + deathmark his t2 hierarch. he never hits 3rd land gg.
G3: can't kill 2x inkmoth nexus on 5 land mandrils keep.
Round 2: 2-0 vs merfolk
G1: he gets stuck on 2 lands and i bounce his lords and beat with goyf/tas
G2: he goes lord of atl x2, I maelstrom pulse. He has tidebinder and harbinger but simic charm for hexproof and then flashback charm for hexproof - gg.
Round 3: 2-1 vs burn
G1: I'm at 5. Her hand is atarkas command, her board is goblin guide 3 lands, my hand is stubborn denial so I can counter the command, my board is easy lethal. She has to draw a one mana 3 dmg spell to win. I ashiok +2 exling a land, a searing blaze, and a wild nacatl - she topdecks lava spike for gg.
G2: long game as I have to avoid tapping out and losing to burns but i get there.
G3: same. I have vampiric link in opener and a spellskite t2 - she won't kill the ******* spellskite and there's no sorcery - 3/4 goyfs vs guide+nacatl with vampiric link stuck in hand. Goes to turns and I win because she doesn't pay the 3 mana for mana leak on nacatl... just puts it in the GY.
Round 4: 1-2 vs grixis twin
G1: incorrectly put him on grixis control after t1 bolt delver t2 IoK. I tap out for ashiok, he flashes in exarch untaps and twins t4 gg.
G2: Torpor orb and he runs out of answers for my 3x goyf. He hits a keranos but it doesnt matter vs 5/6 goyfs.
G3: he spell snares my t2 goyf but t3 goyf lands. Neither of us has black mana - I probe him and know he has terminate - I have simic charm and golgari charm in hand. I decide to snap-serum to dig for the black leaving 1 mana up and fail to rip a land. He untaps and rips a fetch off the top to terminate the goyf while I look stupidly down at my simic charm. Takes a long ass time, and I do mana leak his keranos this time, but with me on murderous cut and 2 life and him hellbent he rips a bolt.
Vampiric link is not better than feed the clan in this deck. ashiok is ******* terrible - everytime i cast it it literally did nothing and then I lost. Vs infect I stole a blighted agent that never attacked or blocked. Vs burn it actually milled away 3 cards that would win me the game and gave her 1 to kill me. Vs twin I tapped out for it and died immediately as a result. Disrupting shoal did some good work vs infect burn and merfolk though - helps a tonne at weathering the early aggro when you can tap out for a goyf and then shoal a charm to counter their 2 cmc play then untap and have denial/leak/charm/decay online.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Round 1: 1-2 vs infect.
G1: can't kill inkmoth nexus.
G2: t2 tasigur, t3 goyf + deathmark his t2 hierarch. he never hits 3rd land gg.
G3: can't kill 2x inkmoth nexus on 5 land mandrils keep.
Round 2: 2-0 vs merfolk
G1: he gets stuck on 2 lands and i bounce his lords and beat with goyf/tas
G2: he goes lord of atl x2, I maelstrom pulse. He has tidebinder and harbinger but simic charm for hexproof and then flashback charm for hexproof - gg.
Round 3: 2-1 vs burn
G1: I'm at 5. Her hand is atarkas command, her board is goblin guide 3 lands, my hand is stubborn denial so I can counter the command, my board is easy lethal. She has to draw a one mana 3 dmg spell to win. I ashiok +2 exling a land, a searing blaze, and a wild nacatl - she topdecks lava spike for gg.
G2: long game as I have to avoid tapping out and losing to burns but i get there.
G3: same. I have vampiric link in opener and a spellskite t2 - she won't kill the ******* spellskite and there's no sorcery - 3/4 goyfs vs guide+nacatl with vampiric link stuck in hand. Goes to turns and I win because she doesn't pay the 3 mana for mana leak on nacatl... just puts it in the GY.
Round 4: 1-2 vs grixis twin
G1: incorrectly put him on grixis control after t1 bolt delver t2 IoK. I tap out for ashiok, he flashes in exarch untaps and twins t4 gg.
G2: Torpor orb and he runs out of answers for my 3x goyf. He hits a keranos but it doesnt matter vs 5/6 goyfs.
G3: he spell snares my t2 goyf but t3 goyf lands. Neither of us has black mana - I probe him and know he has terminate - I have simic charm and golgari charm in hand. I decide to snap-serum to dig for the black leaving 1 mana up and fail to rip a land. He untaps and rips a fetch off the top to terminate the goyf while I look stupidly down at my simic charm. Takes a long ass time, and I do mana leak his keranos this time, but with me on murderous cut and 2 life and him hellbent he rips a bolt.
Vampiric link is not better than feed the clan in this deck. ashiok is ******* terrible - everytime i cast it it literally did nothing and then I lost. Vs infect I stole a blighted agent that never attacked or blocked. Vs burn it actually milled away 3 cards that would win me the game and gave her 1 to kill me. Vs twin I tapped out for it and died immediately as a result. Disrupting shoal did some good work vs infect burn and merfolk though - helps a tonne at weathering the early aggro when you can tap out for a goyf and then shoal a charm to counter their 2 cmc play then untap and have denial/leak/charm/decay online.
Sounds like bad beats on the Twin match. I agree with Ashiok being bad, Liliana would likely be better. Thanks for the report.
Anything that runs Delve creatures as a win con
Twin? (Haven't tested this yet. Hits Cryptic, Splinter Twin, Keranos)
Tron
Scapeshift
Board is set up like this right now:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Vampiric Link
1 Dispel
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Stubborn Denial
1 undecided - 2nd Dispel? 3rd Agony Warp?
I am liking Agony Warp a lot right now as my meta has a lot of Affinity, Fish, and Elf Aggro and AW is great at blanking attack steps to give our team enough turns to get through for lethal. Killing an x/3 and blanking the other 3/x is a lot better in this type of deck than going 1-for-1 with the opponent with Abrupt Decay or Simic Charm. That being said I am still running both those cards too. It also works well on offense, allowing out Mandrills to trample through just a little bit more.
I like Agony Warp but Drown in Sorrow would likely be good in the matchups so you're bringing in Warp. Disdainful stroke seems pretty sweet in those matchups.
I like Agony Warp but Drown in Sorrow would likely be good in the matchups so you're bringing in Warp. Disdainful stroke seems pretty sweet in those matchups.
Thanks. Maybe it'll be a Maelstrom Pulse.
The general consensus going around seems to be that RUG is better vs. Aggro while BUG is better vs. midrange - which seems right given that in BUG we have Abrupt Decay, which is better against a broad spread of problems as it is a maindeckable answer to everything from a Tarmogoyf to Cranial Plating.
Jamming in Agony Warp seems like the next component of this style of deck - while it is useful as a pseudo Bolt replacement, it also buys us one turn longer than a Bolt which helps it gain a little ground. The cost is high compared to bolt, but being able to nullify 6 damage on a critical turn or using it as a combat trick to set up a bad block to clear the opponent's board seems ever so important as we are constantly managing our life total and winning games in the single digits. It also pitches to Shoal on 2 and hits most manlands, which Decay cannot.
Played this kind of list at local 4 round event. No delve cards because I just like Dark Confidant so much and he actually was the MVP today!
Round 1: Burn (0-2)
G1: No idea what he was playing, but he was also surprised when I pitched Serum Visions to Disrupting Shoal and countered his T1 Swiftspear. After that I was just struggling to stabilize and managed to live several turns with the help of counterspells and Snapcaster flashing back GFTT. Eventually he just gets there. Sideboarding: OUT: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Dark Confidant. IN: 2 Dragon's Claw, 2 Spellskite, 2 Negate.
G2: I keep hand with some lands, Serum Visions, Spellskite and Dragon's Claw. Play out Claw and Spellskite. Claw gains me some life but I am behind all the time and he is beating me with Guide and Swiftspears. I get out goyf at 4 life but he can't help me much at that point.
Got really stomped here. Dragon's Claws felt pretty crap. I figured that I probably need to get Kitchen Finkses to side..
Round 2: BYE (whee some points!)
Round 3: Time Warp combo (2-0)
G1: I know what he is up to and I keep a solid hand with Dark Confidant, counterspells and some discard. I make him discard Remand T1, leaving him some lands and couple of expensive cards which would grant him extra turns. T2 Confidant following Tarmogoyf couple turns later gets me there. Confidant was a real boss here, drawing me so much gas. Sideboarding: OUT: 2 Go for the Throat. IN: 2 Negate
G2: T1 Delver, does not flip T2. T2 Serum Visions shows two creatures on top of deck, I bottom both since I have Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster in hand already. T3 Delver flips finally and starts eating face. I Abrupt Decay two Dictate of Kruphixes which he plays at my end steps. I drop Tarmogoyf and sit with Mana Leak in my hand. He is not able to go off.
Round 4: Infect (2-0)
G1: Opponent mulligans to 5. I know what he is up to and I keep a solid hand with T1 Thoughtseize (taking his Spellskite) into T2 Tarmogoyf. Playing 4/5 creature on T2 feels quite overpowered and my opponent agrees. He is also surprised when I counter his Rancor with Disrupting Shoal after he saw me tapping out. I keep him out of threats with Abrupt Decay and Vapor Snag. I make a huge punt and kill his Blighted Agent with Abrupt Decay even I had Go for the Throat in my hand and I knew he had Ichorclaw Myr in his hand. Luckily this punt does not cost me the game and Tarmogoyf does what Tarmogoyf does. Sideboarding: OUT: 2 Go for the Throat, 2 Deprive. IN: 1 Darkblast, 1 Dismember, 2 Spellskite
G2: Opponent mulligans to 6. He starts with fetch, pass. I start with Thoughtseize and take his only creature. I follow up with Dark Confidant who starts building me the card advantage. I land out Spellskite and slowly eat his life total with Dark Confidant, while he also eats my life total. He gets the Inkmoth Nexus on the table but my Spellskite prevents him from doing anything crazy with it. Eventually I land Tarmogoyf and also draw the Darkblast and harass the Nexus with it, forcing him to burn his boost spells at his end step. GGs.
This deck felt super fun! I have also played with the Adam Fronsee's Sultai Delve(r) list and did not really like it.
I am currently planning to add Inquisitions of Kozileks to main. Maybe 3 IoK + 3 Thoughtseize?
Kitchen Finkses are going to replace Dragon's Claws at sideboard. Sideboard is a bit mess still, but I knew that I could see tron, boggles and infect at the event.
I agree that Inquisition is great in this deck. Another suggestion is Logic Knot. Early on you can delve a fetch and late game you'll have a large enough grave to make delving fine. Deprive is quite awkward early turns. Simic Charm is great to save your Bobs and to bounce guys as well as being blue for Shoal.
Finally getting around to picking up my own set of 'Goyfs, and I wanted to try and build a BG deck but I've found myself gravitating back towards tempo, so I think this is a happy medium. I did play Grixis Delver for a while, so I'm looking forward to giving this a try. Here is my current list, and any feedback is appreciated.
So, I've been wanting to work on this deck some more as of late. I've gone back through my matches and really I am ONLY losing to one thing and that is aggro. I am winning in very high percentages against everything else. So what I'm going to do is try and take my deck that dominates everything except aggro, and shave some percentage points against those other decks to try and get aggro closer to 50/50. Below is my old deck.
How do we even fight aggro?
The way I see it we have two options; we either race them, or we delay them. I find neither a legitimate choose a mixture of the two. While we can be quick, we aren't fast. A straight race doesn't end terribly well for us most of the time because they are putting out quantity where we are putting out quality. The flip side of this is delaying, where we could wait until we have a locked up board state and then start beating in and while in some matchups this might be our best option I don't think this is realistic here. My concern is that our best locked up board state requires Tarmogoyf plus Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Hooting Mandrills. Two creatures isn't enough to hold the line for an extended period of time, so unless we draw into multiple Tarmogoyf we're probably in trouble because we're not dropping multiple delve creatures fast. Further more Delver of Secrets really isn't a great defender. Sure we can block with him, but the point is we're not using our resources very well then (obviously sometimes it's absolutely necessary though). My primary game plan versus aggro then becomes balancing the two of these as appropriate for the matchup and more importantly cards in hand. I've had many aggro matchups where if I could just get through a blocker it would be game over, or if I could have just delayed my opponent one more turn I would have been able to put lethal through as well. So at this point the goal is to add tools to our deck to help us fight this delay/race game.
Game one we're not overhauling our deck or anything, just setting it up a little better to fight this tempo battle giving up points against Combo and Control which already strongly favor us. To do this we add one of each of the following cards. Send to Sleep - Buying you time and or getting you in for the final blows. Spell mastery on this is fairly trivial and when you're running into a wall of Knight of the Reliquaries or Wurmcoil Engine's it can do the job you need. Delay a Nacatl and Goblin Guide from attacking for 1-2 turns. Tapping down Primeval Titan in Amulet Bloom before attackers step, and it also hits lands, Raging Ravine, Inkmoth Nexus etc. Snapcaster Mage - Moving up to two here. A couple reasons, if nothing else it's a chump blocker buying you 3 more life in most cases...or 5-7 against Knight of the Reliquary. However it's re-buy is more valuable in these matchups now than before. Stubborn Denial - The card is insane. Without ferocious I've countered T3 Karn, T4 Ugin. With ferocious it's the spine you need to stand up to combo and control having moved Lily to the sideboard. Piracy Charm - Heavily used in Infect this card offers a ton of potential options. While technically there are 3 options there are 6 options Infect uses it to do and almost all of them are relevant for us.
Target creature gets +2/-1 (Pump yours). To help you race. Other than Snapcaster Mage, every creature we have can wear this for beats. Yeah a 1/1 Delver can't but we aren't often attacking with a 1/1 Delver either. Be wary though as this can turn your Hooting Mandrills into Bolt fodder.
Target creature gains Islandwalk until end of turn. I can't tell you how many times I've run into a wall against Merfolk chump blockers knowing that they were attacking back with Islandwalk for lethal the next turn. Or versus Grixis where I just needed one more attack and was stonewalled by a Gurmag Angler. This feature also pairs well with a new sideboard card I've been toying with in Spreading Seas as a way of slowing down GR Tron and getting past the ultimate wall in Wurmcoil Enginge.
Target player discards a card (Opponent). Useful in a variety of situations, most notably against burn.
Target player discards a card (Yourself). Not as likely as in Infect when you're trying to setup a Become Immense, but it can add 2 more cards towards a Delve creature setup in a pinch.
Target creature gets +2/-1 (Kill Yours). Kill your own Delver or Snapcaster. Very tiny corner case where you may again just need a delve creature and the only way to do it is to kill your own creature. The best example I can think of would be to counter a Cryptic Command targeting your creature, or to fizzle a Searing Blood...doesn't fizzle Searing Blaze unfortunately. There's also the chance you can get another +1 or +2 to an unblocked Goyf killing a Snapcaster that can't get through if you don't have any creature's or instants in the GY.
*NOTE* It is also totally intentional that every single one of the replacement cards can be pitched to Disrupting Shoal. Again the point here is to delay your opponent while giving yourself the time to put your more mana efficient creatures into play. Disrupting Shoal is one of the best cards we have against Aggro style decks, especially against the Combo Aggro decks like Affinity, Burn and Elves (when they don't have an active Cavern of Souls)
What I cut - 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Tasigur the Golden Fang, 1 Thought Scour Liliana of the Veil is a great card against control and a variety of other decks. Much as I love her and much as I feel she wins games...she is generally to slow/not good enough against Aggro. In conjunction with Lightning Bolt into Abrupt Decay into Lily, then sure she mops up wonderfully, but this isn't Jund. The other thing is it strains your life quite literally forcing double black to get her out. The matchups she is best the life totals are less of an immediate concern. I still want 2-3 in the 75 but we can get away without main decking her to help fight aggro. Tasigur, the Golden Fang again is great, and I may find room for two of him again at some point, but right now I think 1 is correct. Thought Scour while excellent at setting up delve is otherwise the worst cantrip of the bunch.
Do I think this will suddenly turn my previously 23.5% win rate versus Aggro and Combo Aggro decks to favorable or even 50/50, no but in conjunction with the sideboard, it will hopefully allow us to get up to the 40-45% range.
Speaking of the sideboard:
Piracy Charm - See above for when you need more of these effects
Spell Snare - Unfortunately there are no good 1 cmc counter target creature spells but this hits a lot of good two drop threats while incidentally being great against Burn, Affinity, having further value against a lot of other decks as well and can be pitched to Disrupting Shoal to counter your opponents Æther Vial, Amulet of Vigor or one drop creature.
Spellskite - Primarily for Infect and Bogles, it also has strong game versus Splinter Twin (already a good matchup) and can be a buy you time as a wall versus aggro decks hopefully baiting out the first Path to Exile so your real threats stay on board.
Feed the Clan - Primarily Burn but a strong consideration versus other aggro decks as well.
Hurkyl's Recall - Affinity primarily, but also does work against Lantern Control and Tron, bouncing those Wurmcoil Engines to buy you another turn of damage.
Send to Sleep - Again see above for when you need more of this effect
Spreading Seas - Slows down GR Tron, and greedy manabases like Jund. Decks like Grixis that don't have access to Enchantment removal can get locked down for a while, and coincidentally this can offer, when combined with Piracy Charm a way to get past walls like Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf...oh and it cantrips. I want to get this up to 3, might consider cutting Spellskite #2.
Deprive - Just for combo and control decks primarily. This is for when you need a hard counter for two mana.
Liliana of the Veil - Good against decks like Bogles and Infect, or decks that focus on one large threat. Fantastic against control and combo. Another card I'd love to get to 3 of, but the fact that we have such a good matchup versus those decks typically anyway means we can get away with two.
Drown in Sorrow - Like Golgari Charm this wrecks Elves, Affinity and token Strategies. Sometimes it can hit other aggro decks hard too. It may be that the card should just be a Languish that we try to delay to, but it's the best we have until we eventually get a 2 mana -2/-2 spell in black.
I took the below list to FNM last night. It is identical to the list above save I swapped a Darkslick Shores for a 4th Polluted Delta. I went 4-0 and below is the report.
Match 1 vs Storm Game 1: We both scryed to 6. I turn one Gitaxian Probed to see he was on Storm. I then stuck an T2 Hooting Mandrills and just countered important spells and Abrupt Decayed his Goblin Electromancer as I beat down to victory. Game 2: I scryed to 6 and with two Delvers in hand I scryed a 3rd to the bottom in hopes of hitting a second land. Only had an Island in hand creature wise. T1 he plays a tapped land, T1 I play Island into Delver. T2 he Pyretic Ritual's twice to cast Blood Moon and Bolt my Delver. He bolted my next delver as well, and then we just passed turns for a good while as he Gitaxian Probed me to see I had three Stubborn Denial. Eventually he was able to work around them to the win. Game 3: I keep a hand with Forest, Fetch, Delver, Tarmogoyf, something, something. He mulliganed to 5 and I ran over him swiftly.
BUG Delver wins 2-1
Match 2 vs Burn Game 1: I was able to get down early Hooting Mandrills and quickly back it up with a Tarmogoyf to stop my opponents attacks. Beyond that I had just enough counter magic to hold him off and ended the game a turn earlier than he may have expected due to Piracy Charm. Game 2: I kept a one lander that had a Goyf, Mandrills, Serum Visions, Thought Scour and a couple Stubborn Denial. That was real potential if I could get a T2 Goyf down. Unfortunately my draw and Serum visions (both to bottom) did not yield a second land. I did hit my second land T3, but with the damage I had to do via lands in conjunction with no interaction with my opponent and being on the draw meant I was just to slow. Game 3: I kept Goyf, Goyf, Tasigur, Simic Charm, Darkslick, Forest. T1 Darkslick drawing Disrupting Shoal. He played Monastery Swiftspear and attacked for 1. I played an 0-1 Goyf. He bolts the Goyf Lava Spikes me and attacks for 3. Down to 13. I draw Stubborn Denial and play another Goyf. He plays Goblin Guide and I Disrupting Shoal it pitching Stubborn Denial. Then he Boros Charms me down to 9 with one card in hand. I wish I was better at remembering exact details, but I know he got me down to two the turn after I started attacking, but I was comfortable because he was top decking, and my attack phases were coming across for 8 with Goyf plus Tasigur and I had counter spell backup to close it out.
BUG Delver wins 2-1
Match 3 vs Ninja Bear Delver Game 1: This was interesting one. He was playing primarily Phantasmal Bear and Delver of Secrets using Ninja of the Deep Hours for card advantage. Game one was a grindy battle in the early game as we fought over trying to resolve/keep our one drop threats alive. He was also on Disrupting Shoal and the game quickly got into a top Decking war and while he started faster and looked like he was going to take it, I was able to use Send to Sleep to let my more powerful threats turn the tide in my favor. Game 2: This one started more in my favor from the get go as I didn't really stumble like I did in the early part of Game 1. I basically stuck a Goyf and then beat down. He tried to get a couple Vedalken Shackles down but Stubborn Denial was there to shut that down.
BUG Delver wins 2-0
Match 4 vs Taking Turns Game 1: Game one he almost got there as he was able to use Elixir of Immortality to buy himself a 6th turn but I was able to Mana Leak his Cryptic attempt before my lethal attack. Disrupting Shoal was big in helping me fight through is early "delay" package. Game 2: He was a bit slow on land development, and I was able to get a Mandrills down T2 followed by Liliana of the Veil T3. From there, just as he got to 4 land I was able to ultimate Lily making him choose two land, and then I with Stubborn Denial backup I finished him off.
BUG Delver wins 2-0
Thoughts on the list and the night.
1)Stubborn Denial is insane in this deck. I am confident going up to 4 was the right call.
2)Snapcaster Mage count being upped to 2 felt good. I was worried cutting Tasigur #2 for this would bite me, but the 8 big creatures is plenty.
3)The cards Piracy Charm, Send to Sleep were both able to be powerful plays at key points in different games. I was also able to Disrupting Shoal both spells during the night, something I could never do with Liliana of the Veil.
4)I'm not a proponent of any changes at this point. I do wonder if with the lessened requirement on black main deck if I could get away with playing a one of Deprive in the main over the 3rd Mana Leak. Furthermore I'd like to consider putting another counter spell... Spell Snare or Deprive in the side in place of Spellskite number two, but this is all
I went a little different direction than most in this thread for better or for worse. Plan A in a lot of the decks in the thread is Delver/Serum Visions or Thought Scour into Devle guy. With this dech, the ideal start is hand destruction into Delver with a 1cc counter backup. If Plan A isn't online, then it can follow the same lines the traditional Sultai Delver decks are following.
I don't love my manabase right now and have been occasionally starved for G. I tried it with 18 land and it felt like too few. I know 19 is on the high end for this kind of deck, but it has been smoother with 19. Also, this is a blue deck with GB splashes. I think Deprive is worth trying to support, but I don't have a ton of testing to back it up. I can't decide if Overgrown Tomb is a necessary evil or not.
Yes, the Psionic Blast is probably wrong. What can I can, its one of my favorite magic cards and unexpected reach has its moments of being game winning. Its a "flex" spot at best, and I won't argue too strenuously if you guys want to heckle me about it.
Last thought is, this is much more of a tempo deck than the midrange decks in the recent pages. That means Disrupting Shoal might be right, I am trying the deck without it for now, but its certainly on the list to be tested.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
Have you done any initial testing with him yet? Thoughts?
Yeah I actually like him a lot, even if you drop him early he is a 2/2 with trample and bears are serviceable if you need the early body. Turn 4/5 if delirium hits it is like playing a hooting mandrills. I think as far as my build goes, I need to cut a few creatures and add more removal.
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
I really like this and will by trying it out! Big fan of Confidant + Shoal in Delver decks, but so far have only ever tried Grixis. YP is pretty bad in this format.
Edit---there's a lot of tension with Shoal here since many of the cards Delver gains with the BG splash aren't blue. Decay, Flayer, Traverse, GftT, Dismember, and Confidant are all examples.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I was thinking 2 in the side. In the rug delver deck they use huntmaster specifically for decks that play path.
I agree about the deck not having enough reach as there is no direct damage like Grixis or RUG. I feel like the only reason to play it is because of how much money I've spent on Goyfs.
R1 vs Burn
Game 1 he goose fetch, Stomping Ground, goblin guide and I groan. Guide nets me a land, I play my own fetch and pass. He drops another guide and comes in for 4. I end step crack for an Island, Scour myself, then drop another fetch, crack it, drop Mandrills. I slowly eke out advantage until he Atarka's Commands his guides to block my mandrills, after which I have another. The game gets close but I close with a Shoal pitching Chsrm on a Boros charm.
G2 is a blowout in my favor as I open with two fetches, scour, mandrills, vampiric link and stubborn denial. Fetch, scour and t2 mandrills with Denial backup then link up mandrills for beats was game.
G2 vs Abzan/Mardu midrange
G1 I get Thiughtseized t1 and am beaten to death by Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary as I flood out.
G2 is pretty much the same.
I walked away from this game realizing I need ways to "out-midrange" a midrange deck. I played without Snaps this tournament and missed them this round.
G3 vs Rakdos Artifacts
Strange deck that played Ravager, Ornithopter, burn, and thunderous wrath (in 3 games he managed 5 or 6 of these miracles off the top - I tilted a bit)
G1 he bolts my t1 delver, thunderous wraths my Tasigur, ditto on my Mandrills, then burns me out.
G2 I draw multiple threats and he can't keep up with 6/7 Goyfs.
G3 is a repeat of g1. I saw multiple miracles wraths this game too.
G4 vs Storm
This was a really awkward match. I realized while shuffling his sleeves were different colors - some were bright white and others were an off-white. I make a mental note of it but move on. After all, we are at the 2-2 table...
G1 is a little drawn out as I repeatedly answer his permanents but ultimately lose to an electromancer that I had no removal for and he combos out.
G2 I play t1 probe and see he kept a 1 lander with a ton of gas. He sleights and makes his second land drop on time and every land drop he needs thereafter, but he scoops after I thought scour in response to him storming out to kill a Tas and Goyf. We do a quick recount and we realize they still would have died but he wrapped turn with no cards in hand. Scoop stands and we move to g3. I flip through his bin after the game and realize that the lands all have older sleeves on them but the spells had crisp, white sleeves. I grab judge and pull him aside to let him know, but don't feel comfortable calling he opponent out as we are still at the 2-2 table...
G3 he plays tarn and passes. I probe and see no lands. He end step fetches and main phase sleights. Puts an older sleeved card in hand then plays his land (same card he drew). The same behavior continues for a bit. He starts combining off and I call the judge. We begin to thumb through the deck, and I'm pulling cars off the top asking if they are lands for the judge to verify. Turns out, not all of the older sleeved cards were lands - there were two dispels that were in older sleeves too. (Clearly sideboard cards). Judge flips through and the rest of the older sleeved cards in the deck were lands. Judge rules a game loss for the opponent and instructs him to change sleeves before next event, threatens to ban he opponent from next event if he gets caught again. Opponent pleads innocence claiming bad eyesight and asks me to help him flip through his deck and ID the suspicious sleeves. I politely (but not too politely) decline and walk away.
So that's it - part of me felt only a little bit bad about how the last round went but part of me is still fuming about getting cheated game 1. I've never had to call out a cheater before but to me this was pretty blatant. What's worse is it seemed like my round 3 opponent was pretty buddy-buddy with the cheater I played round 4, and I suspected some funny business with all the top decked miracles I saw vs him but have no proof.
Some final thoughts on the deck:
I played 18 lands (9 fetches, 4 basics, 4 shocks, 1 check land) and felt like I was drawing a lot of land. I've trimmed back down to 17.
Shoal was either incredible or a dud. No in-between.
Charms felt strained pulling double (triple?) duty between: protecting threats, bounce, and pitching to shoal. Maybe some hard removal is in order to ease the workload on the charm.
I missed Snapcaster.
I have been tinkering with numbers that allow us to run Shackles - cutting Shoal may be in order - and upping island count to support the artifact in question. Between Chsrm and Denial, we should be able to protect Shackles, and this occupies two needed gaps in the deck: it works as pseudo-removal and another (relatively cheap) win condition which also lets us "out-midrange" the midrange decks.
Sales Thread
Sales Thread
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tsrmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Simic Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Remand
1 Deprive
1 Darkblast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Vampiric Link
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Go for the Throat
1 Dispel
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Negate
1 Bitterblossom
17 lands was fine with no Snaps. The more you play, the more lands I would add.
Sales Thread
Sales Thread
Anything that runs Delve creatures as a win con
Twin? (Haven't tested this yet. Hits Cryptic, Splinter Twin, Keranos)
Tron
Scapeshift
Board is set up like this right now:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Vampiric Link
1 Dispel
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
2 Go for the Throat
1 Stubborn Denial
1 undecided - 2nd Dispel? 3rd Agony Warp?
I am liking Agony Warp a lot right now as my meta has a lot of Affinity, Fish, and Elf Aggro and AW is great at blanking attack steps to give our team enough turns to get through for lethal. Killing an x/3 and blanking the other 3/x is a lot better in this type of deck than going 1-for-1 with the opponent with Abrupt Decay or Simic Charm. That being said I am still running both those cards too. It also works well on offense, allowing out Mandrills to trample through just a little bit more.
Sales Thread
4 tarmogoyf
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 hooting mandrils
2 snapcaster mage
1 ashiok, nightmare weaver
4 serum visions
2 gitaxian probe
2 mishra's bauble
4 stubborn denial
2 mana leak
1 disrupting shoal
1 shadow of doubt
2 abrupt decay
2 simic charm
1 murderous cut
1 maelstrom pulse
1 vapor snag
Round 1: 1-2 vs infect.
G1: can't kill inkmoth nexus.
G2: t2 tasigur, t3 goyf + deathmark his t2 hierarch. he never hits 3rd land gg.
G3: can't kill 2x inkmoth nexus on 5 land mandrils keep.
Round 2: 2-0 vs merfolk
G1: he gets stuck on 2 lands and i bounce his lords and beat with goyf/tas
G2: he goes lord of atl x2, I maelstrom pulse. He has tidebinder and harbinger but simic charm for hexproof and then flashback charm for hexproof - gg.
Round 3: 2-1 vs burn
G1: I'm at 5. Her hand is atarkas command, her board is goblin guide 3 lands, my hand is stubborn denial so I can counter the command, my board is easy lethal. She has to draw a one mana 3 dmg spell to win. I ashiok +2 exling a land, a searing blaze, and a wild nacatl - she topdecks lava spike for gg.
G2: long game as I have to avoid tapping out and losing to burns but i get there.
G3: same. I have vampiric link in opener and a spellskite t2 - she won't kill the ******* spellskite and there's no sorcery - 3/4 goyfs vs guide+nacatl with vampiric link stuck in hand. Goes to turns and I win because she doesn't pay the 3 mana for mana leak on nacatl... just puts it in the GY.
Round 4: 1-2 vs grixis twin
G1: incorrectly put him on grixis control after t1 bolt delver t2 IoK. I tap out for ashiok, he flashes in exarch untaps and twins t4 gg.
G2: Torpor orb and he runs out of answers for my 3x goyf. He hits a keranos but it doesnt matter vs 5/6 goyfs.
G3: he spell snares my t2 goyf but t3 goyf lands. Neither of us has black mana - I probe him and know he has terminate - I have simic charm and golgari charm in hand. I decide to snap-serum to dig for the black leaving 1 mana up and fail to rip a land. He untaps and rips a fetch off the top to terminate the goyf while I look stupidly down at my simic charm. Takes a long ass time, and I do mana leak his keranos this time, but with me on murderous cut and 2 life and him hellbent he rips a bolt.
Vampiric link is not better than feed the clan in this deck. ashiok is ******* terrible - everytime i cast it it literally did nothing and then I lost. Vs infect I stole a blighted agent that never attacked or blocked. Vs burn it actually milled away 3 cards that would win me the game and gave her 1 to kill me. Vs twin I tapped out for it and died immediately as a result. Disrupting shoal did some good work vs infect burn and merfolk though - helps a tonne at weathering the early aggro when you can tap out for a goyf and then shoal a charm to counter their 2 cmc play then untap and have denial/leak/charm/decay online.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Sounds like bad beats on the Twin match. I agree with Ashiok being bad, Liliana would likely be better. Thanks for the report.
I like Agony Warp but Drown in Sorrow would likely be good in the matchups so you're bringing in Warp. Disdainful stroke seems pretty sweet in those matchups.
Thanks. Maybe it'll be a Maelstrom Pulse.
The general consensus going around seems to be that RUG is better vs. Aggro while BUG is better vs. midrange - which seems right given that in BUG we have Abrupt Decay, which is better against a broad spread of problems as it is a maindeckable answer to everything from a Tarmogoyf to Cranial Plating.
Jamming in Agony Warp seems like the next component of this style of deck - while it is useful as a pseudo Bolt replacement, it also buys us one turn longer than a Bolt which helps it gain a little ground. The cost is high compared to bolt, but being able to nullify 6 damage on a critical turn or using it as a combat trick to set up a bad block to clear the opponent's board seems ever so important as we are constantly managing our life total and winning games in the single digits. It also pitches to Shoal on 2 and hits most manlands, which Decay cannot.
Sales Thread
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Deprive
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Go for the Throat
2 Mana Leak
2 Vapor Snag
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
2 Breeding Pool
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkblast
1 Deathmark
1 Dismember
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
Played this kind of list at local 4 round event. No delve cards because I just like Dark Confidant so much and he actually was the MVP today!
Round 1: Burn (0-2)
G1: No idea what he was playing, but he was also surprised when I pitched Serum Visions to Disrupting Shoal and countered his T1 Swiftspear. After that I was just struggling to stabilize and managed to live several turns with the help of counterspells and Snapcaster flashing back GFTT. Eventually he just gets there.
Sideboarding: OUT: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Dark Confidant. IN: 2 Dragon's Claw, 2 Spellskite, 2 Negate.
G2: I keep hand with some lands, Serum Visions, Spellskite and Dragon's Claw. Play out Claw and Spellskite. Claw gains me some life but I am behind all the time and he is beating me with Guide and Swiftspears. I get out goyf at 4 life but he can't help me much at that point.
Got really stomped here. Dragon's Claws felt pretty crap. I figured that I probably need to get Kitchen Finkses to side..
Round 2: BYE (whee some points!)
Round 3: Time Warp combo (2-0)
G1: I know what he is up to and I keep a solid hand with Dark Confidant, counterspells and some discard. I make him discard Remand T1, leaving him some lands and couple of expensive cards which would grant him extra turns. T2 Confidant following Tarmogoyf couple turns later gets me there. Confidant was a real boss here, drawing me so much gas.
Sideboarding: OUT: 2 Go for the Throat. IN: 2 Negate
G2: T1 Delver, does not flip T2. T2 Serum Visions shows two creatures on top of deck, I bottom both since I have Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster in hand already. T3 Delver flips finally and starts eating face. I Abrupt Decay two Dictate of Kruphixes which he plays at my end steps. I drop Tarmogoyf and sit with Mana Leak in my hand. He is not able to go off.
Round 4: Infect (2-0)
G1: Opponent mulligans to 5. I know what he is up to and I keep a solid hand with T1 Thoughtseize (taking his Spellskite) into T2 Tarmogoyf. Playing 4/5 creature on T2 feels quite overpowered and my opponent agrees. He is also surprised when I counter his Rancor with Disrupting Shoal after he saw me tapping out. I keep him out of threats with Abrupt Decay and Vapor Snag. I make a huge punt and kill his Blighted Agent with Abrupt Decay even I had Go for the Throat in my hand and I knew he had Ichorclaw Myr in his hand. Luckily this punt does not cost me the game and Tarmogoyf does what Tarmogoyf does.
Sideboarding: OUT: 2 Go for the Throat, 2 Deprive. IN: 1 Darkblast, 1 Dismember, 2 Spellskite
G2: Opponent mulligans to 6. He starts with fetch, pass. I start with Thoughtseize and take his only creature. I follow up with Dark Confidant who starts building me the card advantage. I land out Spellskite and slowly eat his life total with Dark Confidant, while he also eats my life total. He gets the Inkmoth Nexus on the table but my Spellskite prevents him from doing anything crazy with it. Eventually I land Tarmogoyf and also draw the Darkblast and harass the Nexus with it, forcing him to burn his boost spells at his end step. GGs.
This deck felt super fun! I have also played with the Adam Fronsee's Sultai Delve(r) list and did not really like it.
I am currently planning to add Inquisitions of Kozileks to main. Maybe 3 IoK + 3 Thoughtseize?
Kitchen Finkses are going to replace Dragon's Claws at sideboard. Sideboard is a bit mess still, but I knew that I could see tron, boggles and infect at the event.
Any other suggestions that could be tried out?
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
28
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deprive
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Murderous Cut
4 Serum Visions
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Sultai Charm
4 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Island
2 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Flooded Strand
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dismember
2 Dispel
4 Feed the Clan
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Marsh Casualties
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands - 18
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Echoing Truth
1 Simic Charm
4 Disrupting Shoal
Sorcery's - 7
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Planeswalkers - 2
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Feed the Clan
1 Desecration Demon
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Echoing Truth
1 Countersquall
1 Deprive
1 Flashfreeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vapor Snag
1 Deathmark
1 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
1 Drown in Sorrow
How do we even fight aggro?
The way I see it we have two options; we either race them, or we delay them. I find neither a legitimate choose a mixture of the two. While we can be quick, we aren't fast. A straight race doesn't end terribly well for us most of the time because they are putting out quantity where we are putting out quality. The flip side of this is delaying, where we could wait until we have a locked up board state and then start beating in and while in some matchups this might be our best option I don't think this is realistic here. My concern is that our best locked up board state requires Tarmogoyf plus Tasigur, the Golden Fang or Hooting Mandrills. Two creatures isn't enough to hold the line for an extended period of time, so unless we draw into multiple Tarmogoyf we're probably in trouble because we're not dropping multiple delve creatures fast. Further more Delver of Secrets really isn't a great defender. Sure we can block with him, but the point is we're not using our resources very well then (obviously sometimes it's absolutely necessary though). My primary game plan versus aggro then becomes balancing the two of these as appropriate for the matchup and more importantly cards in hand. I've had many aggro matchups where if I could just get through a blocker it would be game over, or if I could have just delayed my opponent one more turn I would have been able to put lethal through as well. So at this point the goal is to add tools to our deck to help us fight this delay/race game.
Game one we're not overhauling our deck or anything, just setting it up a little better to fight this tempo battle giving up points against Combo and Control which already strongly favor us. To do this we add one of each of the following cards.
Send to Sleep - Buying you time and or getting you in for the final blows. Spell mastery on this is fairly trivial and when you're running into a wall of Knight of the Reliquaries or Wurmcoil Engine's it can do the job you need. Delay a Nacatl and Goblin Guide from attacking for 1-2 turns. Tapping down Primeval Titan in Amulet Bloom before attackers step, and it also hits lands, Raging Ravine, Inkmoth Nexus etc.
Snapcaster Mage - Moving up to two here. A couple reasons, if nothing else it's a chump blocker buying you 3 more life in most cases...or 5-7 against Knight of the Reliquary. However it's re-buy is more valuable in these matchups now than before.
Stubborn Denial - The card is insane. Without ferocious I've countered T3 Karn, T4 Ugin. With ferocious it's the spine you need to stand up to combo and control having moved Lily to the sideboard.
Piracy Charm - Heavily used in Infect this card offers a ton of potential options. While technically there are 3 options there are 6 options Infect uses it to do and almost all of them are relevant for us.
What I cut - 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Tasigur the Golden Fang, 1 Thought Scour
Liliana of the Veil is a great card against control and a variety of other decks. Much as I love her and much as I feel she wins games...she is generally to slow/not good enough against Aggro. In conjunction with Lightning Bolt into Abrupt Decay into Lily, then sure she mops up wonderfully, but this isn't Jund. The other thing is it strains your life quite literally forcing double black to get her out. The matchups she is best the life totals are less of an immediate concern. I still want 2-3 in the 75 but we can get away without main decking her to help fight aggro.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang again is great, and I may find room for two of him again at some point, but right now I think 1 is correct.
Thought Scour while excellent at setting up delve is otherwise the worst cantrip of the bunch.
Do I think this will suddenly turn my previously 23.5% win rate versus Aggro and Combo Aggro decks to favorable or even 50/50, no but in conjunction with the sideboard, it will hopefully allow us to get up to the 40-45% range.
Speaking of the sideboard:
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands - 18
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Thought Scour
4 Stubborn Denial
1 Piracy Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Echoing Truth
1 Send to Sleep
1 Simic Charm
4 Disrupting Shoal
Sorcery's - 7
3 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Piracy Charm
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
2 Feed the Clan
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Send to Sleep
2 Spreading Seas
1 Deprive
1 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Drown in Sorrow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands - 18
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Thought Scour
4 Stubborn Denial
1 Piracy Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Echoing Truth
1 Send to Sleep
1 Simic Charm
4 Disrupting Shoal
Sorcery's - 7
3 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Piracy Charm
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
2 Feed the Clan
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Send to Sleep
2 Spreading Seas
1 Deprive
1 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Drown in Sorrow
Match 1 vs Storm
Game 1: We both scryed to 6. I turn one Gitaxian Probed to see he was on Storm. I then stuck an T2 Hooting Mandrills and just countered important spells and Abrupt Decayed his Goblin Electromancer as I beat down to victory.
Game 2: I scryed to 6 and with two Delvers in hand I scryed a 3rd to the bottom in hopes of hitting a second land. Only had an Island in hand creature wise. T1 he plays a tapped land, T1 I play Island into Delver. T2 he Pyretic Ritual's twice to cast Blood Moon and Bolt my Delver. He bolted my next delver as well, and then we just passed turns for a good while as he Gitaxian Probed me to see I had three Stubborn Denial. Eventually he was able to work around them to the win.
Game 3: I keep a hand with Forest, Fetch, Delver, Tarmogoyf, something, something. He mulliganed to 5 and I ran over him swiftly.
BUG Delver wins 2-1
Match 2 vs Burn
Game 1: I was able to get down early Hooting Mandrills and quickly back it up with a Tarmogoyf to stop my opponents attacks. Beyond that I had just enough counter magic to hold him off and ended the game a turn earlier than he may have expected due to Piracy Charm.
Game 2: I kept a one lander that had a Goyf, Mandrills, Serum Visions, Thought Scour and a couple Stubborn Denial. That was real potential if I could get a T2 Goyf down. Unfortunately my draw and Serum visions (both to bottom) did not yield a second land. I did hit my second land T3, but with the damage I had to do via lands in conjunction with no interaction with my opponent and being on the draw meant I was just to slow.
Game 3: I kept Goyf, Goyf, Tasigur, Simic Charm, Darkslick, Forest. T1 Darkslick drawing Disrupting Shoal. He played Monastery Swiftspear and attacked for 1. I played an 0-1 Goyf. He bolts the Goyf Lava Spikes me and attacks for 3. Down to 13. I draw Stubborn Denial and play another Goyf. He plays Goblin Guide and I Disrupting Shoal it pitching Stubborn Denial. Then he Boros Charms me down to 9 with one card in hand. I wish I was better at remembering exact details, but I know he got me down to two the turn after I started attacking, but I was comfortable because he was top decking, and my attack phases were coming across for 8 with Goyf plus Tasigur and I had counter spell backup to close it out.
BUG Delver wins 2-1
Match 3 vs Ninja Bear Delver
Game 1: This was interesting one. He was playing primarily Phantasmal Bear and Delver of Secrets using Ninja of the Deep Hours for card advantage. Game one was a grindy battle in the early game as we fought over trying to resolve/keep our one drop threats alive. He was also on Disrupting Shoal and the game quickly got into a top Decking war and while he started faster and looked like he was going to take it, I was able to use Send to Sleep to let my more powerful threats turn the tide in my favor.
Game 2: This one started more in my favor from the get go as I didn't really stumble like I did in the early part of Game 1. I basically stuck a Goyf and then beat down. He tried to get a couple Vedalken Shackles down but Stubborn Denial was there to shut that down.
BUG Delver wins 2-0
Match 4 vs Taking Turns
Game 1: Game one he almost got there as he was able to use Elixir of Immortality to buy himself a 6th turn but I was able to Mana Leak his Cryptic attempt before my lethal attack. Disrupting Shoal was big in helping me fight through is early "delay" package.
Game 2: He was a bit slow on land development, and I was able to get a Mandrills down T2 followed by Liliana of the Veil T3. From there, just as he got to 4 land I was able to ultimate Lily making him choose two land, and then I with Stubborn Denial backup I finished him off.
BUG Delver wins 2-0
Thoughts on the list and the night.
1)Stubborn Denial is insane in this deck. I am confident going up to 4 was the right call.
2)Snapcaster Mage count being upped to 2 felt good. I was worried cutting Tasigur #2 for this would bite me, but the 8 big creatures is plenty.
3)The cards Piracy Charm, Send to Sleep were both able to be powerful plays at key points in different games. I was also able to Disrupting Shoal both spells during the night, something I could never do with Liliana of the Veil.
4)I'm not a proponent of any changes at this point. I do wonder if with the lessened requirement on black main deck if I could get away with playing a one of Deprive in the main over the 3rd Mana Leak. Furthermore I'd like to consider putting another counter spell... Spell Snare or Deprive in the side in place of Spellskite number two, but this is all
1 Breeding Pool
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Deprive
2 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Night's Whisper
1 Psionic Blast
3 Serum Visions
2 Simic Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Torpor Orb
3 Feed the Clan
2 Smother
2 Wipe Away
2 Dismember
2 Disfigure
//Maybeboard
1 Sultai Charm
1 Damping Matrix
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vedalken Shackles
I went a little different direction than most in this thread for better or for worse. Plan A in a lot of the decks in the thread is Delver/Serum Visions or Thought Scour into Devle guy. With this dech, the ideal start is hand destruction into Delver with a 1cc counter backup. If Plan A isn't online, then it can follow the same lines the traditional Sultai Delver decks are following.
I don't love my manabase right now and have been occasionally starved for G. I tried it with 18 land and it felt like too few. I know 19 is on the high end for this kind of deck, but it has been smoother with 19. Also, this is a blue deck with GB splashes. I think Deprive is worth trying to support, but I don't have a ton of testing to back it up. I can't decide if Overgrown Tomb is a necessary evil or not.
Yes, the Psionic Blast is probably wrong. What can I can, its one of my favorite magic cards and unexpected reach has its moments of being game winning. Its a "flex" spot at best, and I won't argue too strenuously if you guys want to heckle me about it.
Last thought is, this is much more of a tempo deck than the midrange decks in the recent pages. That means Disrupting Shoal might be right, I am trying the deck without it for now, but its certainly on the list to be tested.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
My 1st draft of a BUG deck using grim flayer
Yeah I actually like him a lot, even if you drop him early he is a 2/2 with trample and bears are serviceable if you need the early body. Turn 4/5 if delirium hits it is like playing a hooting mandrills. I think as far as my build goes, I need to cut a few creatures and add more removal.
Edit---there's a lot of tension with Shoal here since many of the cards Delver gains with the BG splash aren't blue. Decay, Flayer, Traverse, GftT, Dismember, and Confidant are all examples.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy