So with the release of Eldritch Moon, BUG Delver gets a new tool in Grim Flayer. This new two drop fuels the graveyard, helps flip delver, and stops us from drawing unnecessary lands. With 10 "Goyfs", our deck can play the aggresive and reactive roles quite well. Our removal and counter suite in BUG offers some of the most reliable answers outside of Bolt in Abrupt Decay and Mana Leak. If you enjoy aggresive decks with the possibility to play the long game, then this is the deck for you.
Went 3-1 at last Modern Tuesday.
1-2 vs Scapeshift. He topdecked the Scapeshift when I had lethal on board two games in a row.
2-0 vs UB Control. Easy matchup.
2-0 vs Merfolk. Abrupt Decay was very good here.
2-0 vs BG rock. Bobs were good and I outgrinded.
A build like this is not trying to capitalize on a Turn 2 Delve fatty, but rather disrupt the opponent for long enough that a Delver/Goyf goes all the way. Tasigurs are here to mop up.
The archetype already possesses a good game against Tron variants (early threat, Stubborn Denial backup), Splinter Twin (discard, Abrupt Decay, counters), and Burn (Feed the Clan and Spellskite) - the first two of which should be cropping up all over the place because of Tron's high profile finish recently. Burn is always around and we have the tools to fight it. Delver strategies are traditionally weak against BG/x shells and swarmy aggro decks (Fish, Affinity) so most of my sideboard is dedicated to combat that.
I think a build like this takes a pretty good, balanced approach against most decks in the format. Let me know what you think - I may go up to 2 Deathmarks in the side by cutting the Darkblast. Unsure of how necessary Deglamer is, either - this can possibly become a Flashfreeze or something else that is good against Jund/Abzan.
I´m working on this deck too, but believe that a key card is Grisly Salvage. Dig 5 Deep at instant speed for a Delve creature, which incidently also will pay for it. And I don´t like Shoal. Something like this:
Not using Serum Visions is a great take on the archetype. That's what lets you use both Thought Scour and Grisly salvage in the list. I don't know that it is the right take but when I saw no Serum Visions in the list it immediately made me look at it more closely for possible synergies. I'd try this with a Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter and at least 1 Life from the Loam in the list, alongside a loam in the SB with a couple more land kill lands.
I might start with -1 Hooting Mandrills, -1 Stubborn Denial, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Ghost Quarter and see how things went.
A build like this is not trying to capitalize on a Turn 2 Delve fatty, but rather disrupt the opponent for long enough that a Delver/Goyf goes all the way. Tasigurs are here to mop up.
The archetype already possesses a good game against Tron variants (early threat, Stubborn Denial backup), Splinter Twin (discard, Abrupt Decay, counters), and Burn (Feed the Clan and Spellskite) - the first two of which should be cropping up allover the place because of Tron's high profile finish recently. Burn is always around and we have the tools to fight it. Delver strategies are traditionally weak against BG/x shells and swarmy aggro decks (Fish, Affinity) so most of my sideboard is dedicated to combat that.
I think a build like this takes a pretty good, balanced approach against most decks in the format. Let me know what you think - I may go up to 2 Deathmarks in the side by cutting the Darkblast. Unsure of how necessary Deglamer is, either - this can possibly become a Flashfreeze or something else that is good against Jund/Abzan.
I think the Deprives and Spell Snares are too much. You definitely need Leak or Remand instead. Simic Charm is super solid in the deck and the golgari should be in the side. A 2/1 split of Tasigur and Gurmag Angler would be more appropriate. The last thing you want to do is use Tasigurs ability and put a Tasigur in the graveyard and be given back a Tasigur. Gurmag eats opposing Tasigurs and Goyfs.
I've been on disrupting shoal bandwagon a lot lately and when it hits, it's the blow outs. Often times, I'll have a threat, be tapped out, and counter their best chance to kill my fatty.
Shoal is incredible game 1, then you side it out game 2 and they still have to respect it and so it makes them change their line of play because they can't prepare for a force of will type effect.
Also, Thought Scour is a must have because it's like casting Dark Ritual for Tasigur. It is the reason you can land Tassy turn 2.
It's great with Hooting Mandrills because of the trample damage. It not only gives your creatures hexproof, it also protects your lands, which I found very relevant the other day playing against a Land Destruction deck playing Boom // Bust, and Fulminator mage. The unsummon ability is great as well... it's very versatile. You should try a couple and see how you like it.
hi,
i'm playing right now with two copy of Simic Charm in side and 1 in main. I found this card perfect for the deck because all three effect are relevant. +3/+3 can save one creature from bolt or can win the combat (i.e. 2 Tarmo) or can assest the letal damage. hexproof save your creature (rarly your land) from removal or distruction. and bounce can change the ratio with blocker or, in a tempo perspective, get back problematic creature like wurmcoil.
I think Ghost Quarter is better vs Tron and Amulet than Tec Edge is. Also Warden seems like too much mana? Maybe cut Delvers and add Liliana OTV if you like Loam.
I really like the warden idea, but would only put 2 in there at the most. Life gain is much needed for this deck, and I have a 1 of Jorubai Murk Lurker in the side I'm trying out.
I run 2 Vapor Snags, 2 Simic Charm, 3 Abrupt Decay for the main removal. I may add in a murderous cut as well.
Not sure, I may jam him in there as a 1 of for now and see how it goes. The fact that you can dump a total of 7 mana in him and he still does to bolt is why its a hard call.
Thank god I finally found a sultai delver thread! I have been playing the following list for the last week online and have been floored by its consistency and success rate:
This deck just feels like it has outs to everything while also being able to present quick and serious threats. It feels like a jund/junk deck where you don't just die if you can't thoughtseize their combo piece in time, or like a grixis delver deck that can put 7 power on the board turn 2 and protect it. Stubborn denial is everything spell pierce wishes it could be - a force spike early on and then a negate by the mid game.
Some notes on the 1-ofs:
disrupting shoal - drawing this early makes sticking that turn 2 goyf happen. It's an awesome security blanket that lets you tap out for goyfs or snap-thoughtscour without worrying that you're going to get blown out by a path or snapcaster in response. It can mostly just counter 1 and 2 cmc spells but that's the bulk of what you want. Once your opponent knows you have it it can seriously affect how they play the game too so bonus psychological points.
rancor I was looking for something like bolt to finish off games where the opponent is almost dead but then walls up somehow, I was also looking for better maindeck outs to lingering souls. This is still in testing but so far it feels like 1 rancor is the correct call. Scouring it gives the goyfs +1+1, slapping it on a delver/snapcaster turns on ferocious, and putting it on goyf/tas/angler means no more chump blocking tokens.
sultai charm I put this in to test over maelstrom pulse - I'm not yet sold and strongly considering changing it to golgari charm or back to pulse. In theory instant speed is important for a counterspell deck, but with 3 abrupt decays hitting enchantments and artifacts is kind of meh and the cycling mode is kind of expensive for what it does.
dismemeber and vapor snag - I desperately needed ways to interact with fast decks on turns 1-3 beyond abrupt decay. Both of these have overperformed, but I do not think that I would want more than 1 of each. vapor snagging a hierarch/bird turn 1 can buy you the time you need to setup a threat and get your counterspell online, but its just awesome against enemy tasigurs and anglers too.
cryptic command I'm still on the fence whether this is worth the slot - its a little hard to cast and we're almost never snapcastering it with 19 lands.
gitaxian probe too many of these and we can draw very awkward hands against burn/aggro. Just 1 is usually safe, and its a card that if you topdeck late game still has value. I could see going up by 1, but we almost always take 3 dmg turn 1 from our lands, and taking 5 t1 is a recipe for free wins to aggro opponents.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
You guys are nuts if you think its a good idea to play warden of the first tree in modern, but especially in this deck. Delver is good because if it gets bolted you traded a 1 mana card for a 1 mana card, and having him flip into a 3 power flyer at no cost to you is amazing upside.
Warden... nice nessian courser? Figure of destiny is borderline playable in some t2 decks because if the 2nd level resolves it gets out of bolt range. Even if you get the warden to 3/3 lifelink trample - this is a 19 land deck... you are not (usually) even threatening to get him any higher than that, and 3/3 trample lifelink for a 7 mana investment is atrocious.
I would love to get some maindeck lifegain here, but I don't want any GG or BB commitments which seriously limits the options. I tried scavenging ooze and was not impressed (we are pretty much maxed out on our graveyard usage between delve/goyf/snap). I don't think maindecking a feed the clan would be correct, but it is the perfect life gain card for the deck with our ferocious enablers and snapcasters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
About Warden: I´m just theorising for fun and we already know that the Tarmogoyf package is decent as Fronsee already showed. That said Goyf has an issue with being stuck at 4/5, translated into it being chumped by Tas and killed by Angler, unless you start including stuff that may not really belong. Chapin's Baubles, Curiosity in the Temur deck and now Rancor. Sure they work, but it´s still iffy.
You might want to consider Simic Charm. It fits very well as the Temur deck showed.
Scooze is a bad comparison to Warden as it is dependent on extraneous circumstances. I.e. it poses no threat unless it has something to eat and even worse it lessens the odds of getting your own Delve creatures into play. Not to mention the nonbo with Goyf.
Scooze is way better than Warden because it hurts Coco decks, Kolaghan's command, Snapcaster, etc and can grow easier.
Fair points - I've dropped the shoal and the sultai charm for the 2nd angler and maelstrom pulse. Probably not a good idea to have too many cutesy cards and for now I'll go with the 2x bauble 1x rancor as my flavour. Rancor seems like it can do real work in this deck - stubborn denial and mana leak makes it pretty easy to protect the target from any 2-for-1 action and the upside seems very real - goyfs win the goyf battle and can no longer be chumped by souls tokens, snapcaster trades up for resto angel and breaks throug annoying things like wall of omens(although not quite tasigurs :()
Having delver flip t2 and suited up with a rancor with sutbborn denial in hand is pretty incredible too. If a 4/5 with denial backup t2 is good, a 5/2 trample flyer swinging on t2 with denial back up is very good. You block the first bolt, and even if they have the snap bolt and we don't have another counter in response they've taken 10 and the rancor comes back In matchups where you don't need it, sometimes you can even intentionally thought scour it to the graveyard for goyfs by scrying with visions or peeking with bauble.
The only games I've played where I just felt dead in the water were a dredge deck that put vengeful pharoah and golgari grave troll in the GY turn 1 off faithless looting (I won the other 2 games...), and burn deck that went t1 guide t2 eidolon on the play (game 3). Sometimes I think I'd want darkblast or disfigure but then I'll come up on another deck where either would be completely dead ><
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@BadMcFadden, I'm liking your list a lot, and the several reasons for a 1 of Rancor all seem good. The only thing I'd miss would be the Simic Charm. I'm curious, did you start with any and decide you didn't like them or have you not tested with them yet?
Edit: perhaps since you mentioned you were unsure about the inclusion of cryptic command you could put a simic charm in its place since all three modes line up with the game plan of this deck.
I haven't given simic charm a very good look to be honest, I dropped it in for a few games, didn't draw it, and moved on to other ideas. Right now yeah I think its about whether pulse and cryptic are correct for this build or if we'd be better off with:
a) disfigure
b) golgari charm
c) simic charm
d) a second dismember
e) darkblast
f) go for the throat
g) maindeck 1 feed the clan (probably a major meta call)
h) echoing truth (a snag that deals with tokens)
i) disrupting shoal (buy a turn vs aggro for loss of CA, or pants a combo deck)
In general I worry about 1 and 2 drops that can apply more pressure than we can easily deal with (esp if we don't stick a goyf). Swiftspear, goblin guide, wild nacatl, young pyromancer, dark confidant, and to a lesser extent birds/hierarch/elves are examples of this. Abrupt decay works but that usually means no counterspell available next turn and they may hit us with a liliana or choke or blood moon while the counter mana is down. My build is also almost always fetching a shock turn 1 to ensure I have the mana I need, so aggro/burn has an advantage already, getting hit by a nacatl and having a goyf pathed is a painfully awful turn 2 if you've already fetch shock fetched to -4 yourself.
Disrupting shoal was an inefficient way to hedge against both the fast aggro decks and the combo decks - being able to drop a goyf and then shoal the helix/path/eidolon if needed could buy that one turn needed to untap and get all our other interaction online. But a lot of times shoal just sits in the hand until late game where it becomes the world's worst cancel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Haven't played with shoal myself, but I've heard good things, especially paired with the hyper aggressive version of the deck. My fears for the card are pretty much what you describe so it's interesting to hear that perspective since it's been fairly positive reports otherwise.
I still like feed the clan coming out of the board rather than main deck even though it's tempting. I feel like when you need it, you need more than one, and when you're boarding in 2 to 3 copies against burn or aggro it's hard to lose those games except to maybe the most perfect nut draw. disfigure is a great card, however with the full suite of heavy hitters this deck packs, I still feel like simic charm is more valuable for it's applications to the game one plan.
Overall I think this deck wants to be more proactive than reactive and charm allows for a little of both depending on board state.
If you're ahead, the plus 3 on mandrils over a chump blocker to push through trample damage or tossing it on a flipped delver in the sky simply gives the deck reach that we miss from not packing bolts. If you're behind, use the protection mode from targeted removal when you're low on threats and need to turn the corner. It's real good for the versatility.
Should sultai even play mandrils? I feel like you're just better off playing tasigur/angler since they line up better with goyfs/rhinos/etc. Mandrils seems more for RUG where you don't have the option of the black delve guys.
I played an 18 man tourney tonight with my list - went 3-1 for 3rd place:
Round 1: 2-0 vs Jeskai control
Game 1 he played like land land land remand (which i countered) and died to delver+goyf.
Game 2 was longer, he had multiple colonades and I had a 3/4 goyf, 2 tar pits, and a fist full of counterspells including cryptic. TSN turning point he casts a keranos that I counter, buffing goyf to 4/5 and overpowering colonnades.
Round 2: 2-0 vs RUG twin
G1: He bolts my t1 delver and then visions or something, which lets me get a t2 goyf online that he never handles. I counter his exarchs/snapcasters.
G2: His first turn is serum, second turn is serum serum, third turn is snap serum miss land drop... he still almost gets there with a Thragtuks into keranos into goyf+goyf+cryptic. I drew goyf-dispel-goyf and while keranos bolted away my snaps and delvers, the dispel got the command and my 3 goyfs > his 2 goyfs.
Round 3: 1-2 vs Rakdos Burn
G1: He is stuck on one land for 3 turns... but despite t1 serum t2 thought scour I have 0 creatures and af ist full of counterspells instead. I get to 6 lands without playing a single body and am attacking him with a tar pit at 17 life... he draws 2 lands and empties his hand while i look on in disgust. A single tasigur or goyf and this is not even close. A snapcaster and at least its a game.
G2: I keep a one lander with a visions goyf and tasigur, t1 visions finds no lands, AND forces me to scry two feed the clans to the bottom :/ on next draw step finds no lands. T3 I hit 2nd land drop and lay the goyf which is frankly all it takes to beat this mogg fanatic deck. He gets me to 9 when I cast a feed the clan on a 4/5 tas 4/5 goyf just for the feel-goods. Other interesting note - I countered his t2 thunderous wrath miracle with a stubborn denial and a t4 thunderous wrath miracle with mana leak
G3: I keep a reasonable hand with 2 stubborn denials and draw a 3rd. He goes swiftspear swiftspear bump (denial but still take 5 off swift+fetch). The other 2 denials sit there uselessly as he just leaves 1 mana up all the time and pounds me down with swiftspears. 0 goyf, 0 tasigur, 0 feed the clan
Round 4: 2-0 vs merfolk
G1: t1 delver, flip, t2 thought scour tasigur fist pump. He vapor snags the tasigur... untaps and casts silvergill. t3 I thought scour and recast tasigur... he dismembers it, I play another delver and decay his reejery - delvers get there in the air (100% hit on blind flips).
G2: Keep fetch + tomb and a bunch of blue spells. T1 delver, T2 flip he vapor snags it. I decide i need to hit my land drops and go for the serum visions, drawing breeding pool and scrying into a vapor snag (perfect). Recast delver, untap flip cast 2nd delver etc. Meanwhile he goes t2 nothing... (how does this happen in merfolk) t3 thassa, t4 master of waves. Snag the master. He recasts, snap-snag the master gg.
Honestly burn matchup felt like just plain old bad beats. I have 2 skites a dispel and THREE feed the clans. If one feed the clan goes off with ferocious, or if 2 go off non-ferocious (ie snapcaster) this one is not close. I need early goyf though to block and get ferocious up
Still a great finish despite the bad luck on the burn match up, good stuff dude! Skites and 3 feed the clan will usually go the distance, but unfortunately mana screw is a thing sometimes.
As far as hooting mandrils goes, it really depends on the style of play you're aiming for. Adam Fronsee ran three in his BUG list at the SCG event and I believe he went 11 games undefeated with the more aggressive version he put together, and he had 2 tasigur and 1 angler on top of the 3 hooters'. Only 2 snapcaster to make room for them, plus of course the 4 goyfs.
He was on camera for one match against Jund that you can catch on YouTube.
mandrils also gives you a decent body to put next to tasigur since you can't have two tasigur in play at the same time, diversifying your threats. Plus trample in nice against chumps.
Also, if you find that you're often not hitting your delve creatures often enough like you mentioned a couple times tonight, something you might consider is grisly salvage , it will find you the threat and pay for the delve to cast it all in one. Could be useful in some cases.
Salvage is definitely on my radar for testing. Mandrils is basically competing with angler in this deck. I think with stuff like simic charm it makes more sense since it can still win that goyf battle with the buff. If you don't have many ways to help the monkeys punch through a banana king then I think angler is the better choice.
Also sidenotes for last night, Pulse was never useful - I used it vs jeskai to kill a snapcaster (it was otherwise dead in the matchup really). cryptic was meh, I bounced a colonnade and drew at one point, and vs merfolk I flipped it to delver and drew it but didn't have triple blue on my 4 lands :S. Rancor was worse - the losses to burn included rancor sitting in hand both losses. In the twin matchup it shortened my clock by a turn when I laid it on a tasigur, and would ensure he won any goyf battle, but was not super relevant as the game looked pretty well in hand.
Small sample size of course, but all 3 are still up for rotating out for other cards. Salvage always looked interesting as you could hit a snapcaster while binning the target you need, or hit a delve guy while paying 5 of the mana cost off the 4 binned cards and the salvage. I'm just not sure how much more cantripping the deck needs with 4 visions 4 scour 1 probe already.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Im going to test grisly salvage by cutting 1 or two thought scour depending on how many I want to try. Essentially you're still drawing a card so it's similar in that regard to scour, only it's less blind and narrowed to grabbing a creature, but this is a creature beat down deck so perhaps this is the wiser choice. But yeah, don't think you need 4 scours next to any number of salvage, too much at that point. A split could be nice.
I definitely want to try disrupting shoal for myself, it seems like a great fit with how many extra blue can trips we run that are an easy chunk to the bin if it means dodging removal. It doesn't help on the CA front, but it has that 'protect the hive' vibe that may be what this deck wants. Not too worried about being down a card if all you're threats are going the distance on your opponents' life total. I'll have to see for myself.
And maybe rancor is a little to win-more of a card here... it's great with the right opener and no disruption when you're ahead but does little to nothing if your on the back foot. Bad top deck in that regard. I still think simic charm might be the better flavor for a pump spell here since it has the other modes but I might try it as a one of anyways.
4 Grim Flayer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Simic Charm
4 Serum Visions
1 Go for the Throat
4 Mana Leak
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Thought Scour
2 Rancor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1-2 vs Scapeshift. He topdecked the Scapeshift when I had lethal on board two games in a row.
2-0 vs UB Control. Easy matchup.
2-0 vs Merfolk. Abrupt Decay was very good here.
2-0 vs BG rock. Bobs were good and I outgrinded.
Without access to Wasteland, Hymn or Jace, you're playing an inferior midrange deck compared to Junk/Jund, essentially.
Here is a relevant article: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30987_Delve-And-Delver.html
And here is my list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (28)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Golgari Charm
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellskite
2 Feed the Clan
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
1 Deglamer
1 Deathmark
1 Darkblast
A build like this is not trying to capitalize on a Turn 2 Delve fatty, but rather disrupt the opponent for long enough that a Delver/Goyf goes all the way. Tasigurs are here to mop up.
The archetype already possesses a good game against Tron variants (early threat, Stubborn Denial backup), Splinter Twin (discard, Abrupt Decay, counters), and Burn (Feed the Clan and Spellskite) - the first two of which should be cropping up all over the place because of Tron's high profile finish recently. Burn is always around and we have the tools to fight it. Delver strategies are traditionally weak against BG/x shells and swarmy aggro decks (Fish, Affinity) so most of my sideboard is dedicated to combat that.
I think a build like this takes a pretty good, balanced approach against most decks in the format. Let me know what you think - I may go up to 2 Deathmarks in the side by cutting the Darkblast. Unsure of how necessary Deglamer is, either - this can possibly become a Flashfreeze or something else that is good against Jund/Abzan.
Sales Thread
http://youtu.be/WfFqr1o4wbg
https://youtu.be/TjD9YzpSGEI
I'm running the following list at the moment
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands - 18
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
2 Simic Charm
4 Disrupting Shoal
Sorcery's - 7
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Planeswalkers - 2
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Feed the Clan
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Countersquall
1 Abrupt Decay
Not using Serum Visions is a great take on the archetype. That's what lets you use both Thought Scour and Grisly salvage in the list. I don't know that it is the right take but when I saw no Serum Visions in the list it immediately made me look at it more closely for possible synergies. I'd try this with a Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter and at least 1 Life from the Loam in the list, alongside a loam in the SB with a couple more land kill lands.
I might start with -1 Hooting Mandrills, -1 Stubborn Denial, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Ghost Quarter and see how things went.
I think the Deprives and Spell Snares are too much. You definitely need Leak or Remand instead. Simic Charm is super solid in the deck and the golgari should be in the side. A 2/1 split of Tasigur and Gurmag Angler would be more appropriate. The last thing you want to do is use Tasigurs ability and put a Tasigur in the graveyard and be given back a Tasigur. Gurmag eats opposing Tasigurs and Goyfs.
I've been on disrupting shoal bandwagon a lot lately and when it hits, it's the blow outs. Often times, I'll have a threat, be tapped out, and counter their best chance to kill my fatty.
Shoal is incredible game 1, then you side it out game 2 and they still have to respect it and so it makes them change their line of play because they can't prepare for a force of will type effect.
Also, Thought Scour is a must have because it's like casting Dark Ritual for Tasigur. It is the reason you can land Tassy turn 2.
i'm playing right now with two copy of Simic Charm in side and 1 in main. I found this card perfect for the deck because all three effect are relevant. +3/+3 can save one creature from bolt or can win the combat (i.e. 2 Tarmo) or can assest the letal damage. hexproof save your creature (rarly your land) from removal or distruction. and bounce can change the ratio with blocker or, in a tempo perspective, get back problematic creature like wurmcoil.
I run 2 Vapor Snags, 2 Simic Charm, 3 Abrupt Decay for the main removal. I may add in a murderous cut as well.
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 snapcaster mage
2 tasigur, the golden fang
1 gurmag angler
Instants (18)
4 thought scour
3 stubborn denial
3 mana leak
3 abrupt decay
1 sultai charm
1 dismember
1 vapor snag
1 cryptic command
1 disrupting shoal
4 serum visions
1 gitaxian probe
Artifact (2)
2 mishra's bauble
Enchantments (1)
1 rancor
Lands (19)
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
2 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 watery grave
2 island
1 swamp
1 forest
2 creeping tar pit
3 feed the clan
2 spellskite
2 hurkyll's recall
2 surgical extraction
2 deathmark
1 dispel
1 murderous cut
1 golgari charm
1 stubborn denial
This deck just feels like it has outs to everything while also being able to present quick and serious threats. It feels like a jund/junk deck where you don't just die if you can't thoughtseize their combo piece in time, or like a grixis delver deck that can put 7 power on the board turn 2 and protect it. Stubborn denial is everything spell pierce wishes it could be - a force spike early on and then a negate by the mid game.
Some notes on the 1-ofs:
disrupting shoal - drawing this early makes sticking that turn 2 goyf happen. It's an awesome security blanket that lets you tap out for goyfs or snap-thoughtscour without worrying that you're going to get blown out by a path or snapcaster in response. It can mostly just counter 1 and 2 cmc spells but that's the bulk of what you want. Once your opponent knows you have it it can seriously affect how they play the game too so bonus psychological points.
rancor I was looking for something like bolt to finish off games where the opponent is almost dead but then walls up somehow, I was also looking for better maindeck outs to lingering souls. This is still in testing but so far it feels like 1 rancor is the correct call. Scouring it gives the goyfs +1+1, slapping it on a delver/snapcaster turns on ferocious, and putting it on goyf/tas/angler means no more chump blocking tokens.
sultai charm I put this in to test over maelstrom pulse - I'm not yet sold and strongly considering changing it to golgari charm or back to pulse. In theory instant speed is important for a counterspell deck, but with 3 abrupt decays hitting enchantments and artifacts is kind of meh and the cycling mode is kind of expensive for what it does.
dismemeber and vapor snag - I desperately needed ways to interact with fast decks on turns 1-3 beyond abrupt decay. Both of these have overperformed, but I do not think that I would want more than 1 of each. vapor snagging a hierarch/bird turn 1 can buy you the time you need to setup a threat and get your counterspell online, but its just awesome against enemy tasigurs and anglers too.
cryptic command I'm still on the fence whether this is worth the slot - its a little hard to cast and we're almost never snapcastering it with 19 lands.
gitaxian probe too many of these and we can draw very awkward hands against burn/aggro. Just 1 is usually safe, and its a card that if you topdeck late game still has value. I could see going up by 1, but we almost always take 3 dmg turn 1 from our lands, and taking 5 t1 is a recipe for free wins to aggro opponents.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Warden... nice nessian courser? Figure of destiny is borderline playable in some t2 decks because if the 2nd level resolves it gets out of bolt range. Even if you get the warden to 3/3 lifelink trample - this is a 19 land deck... you are not (usually) even threatening to get him any higher than that, and 3/3 trample lifelink for a 7 mana investment is atrocious.
I would love to get some maindeck lifegain here, but I don't want any GG or BB commitments which seriously limits the options. I tried scavenging ooze and was not impressed (we are pretty much maxed out on our graveyard usage between delve/goyf/snap). I don't think maindecking a feed the clan would be correct, but it is the perfect life gain card for the deck with our ferocious enablers and snapcasters.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Scooze is way better than Warden because it hurts Coco decks, Kolaghan's command, Snapcaster, etc and can grow easier.
Having delver flip t2 and suited up with a rancor with sutbborn denial in hand is pretty incredible too. If a 4/5 with denial backup t2 is good, a 5/2 trample flyer swinging on t2 with denial back up is very good. You block the first bolt, and even if they have the snap bolt and we don't have another counter in response they've taken 10 and the rancor comes back In matchups where you don't need it, sometimes you can even intentionally thought scour it to the graveyard for goyfs by scrying with visions or peeking with bauble.
The only games I've played where I just felt dead in the water were a dredge deck that put vengeful pharoah and golgari grave troll in the GY turn 1 off faithless looting (I won the other 2 games...), and burn deck that went t1 guide t2 eidolon on the play (game 3). Sometimes I think I'd want darkblast or disfigure but then I'll come up on another deck where either would be completely dead ><
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Edit: perhaps since you mentioned you were unsure about the inclusion of cryptic command you could put a simic charm in its place since all three modes line up with the game plan of this deck.
a) disfigure
b) golgari charm
c) simic charm
d) a second dismember
e) darkblast
f) go for the throat
g) maindeck 1 feed the clan (probably a major meta call)
h) echoing truth (a snag that deals with tokens)
i) disrupting shoal (buy a turn vs aggro for loss of CA, or pants a combo deck)
In general I worry about 1 and 2 drops that can apply more pressure than we can easily deal with (esp if we don't stick a goyf). Swiftspear, goblin guide, wild nacatl, young pyromancer, dark confidant, and to a lesser extent birds/hierarch/elves are examples of this. Abrupt decay works but that usually means no counterspell available next turn and they may hit us with a liliana or choke or blood moon while the counter mana is down. My build is also almost always fetching a shock turn 1 to ensure I have the mana I need, so aggro/burn has an advantage already, getting hit by a nacatl and having a goyf pathed is a painfully awful turn 2 if you've already fetch shock fetched to -4 yourself.
Disrupting shoal was an inefficient way to hedge against both the fast aggro decks and the combo decks - being able to drop a goyf and then shoal the helix/path/eidolon if needed could buy that one turn needed to untap and get all our other interaction online. But a lot of times shoal just sits in the hand until late game where it becomes the world's worst cancel.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I still like feed the clan coming out of the board rather than main deck even though it's tempting. I feel like when you need it, you need more than one, and when you're boarding in 2 to 3 copies against burn or aggro it's hard to lose those games except to maybe the most perfect nut draw.
disfigure is a great card, however with the full suite of heavy hitters this deck packs, I still feel like simic charm is more valuable for it's applications to the game one plan.
Overall I think this deck wants to be more proactive than reactive and charm allows for a little of both depending on board state.
If you're ahead, the plus 3 on mandrils over a chump blocker to push through trample damage or tossing it on a flipped delver in the sky simply gives the deck reach that we miss from not packing bolts. If you're behind, use the protection mode from targeted removal when you're low on threats and need to turn the corner. It's real good for the versatility.
I played an 18 man tourney tonight with my list - went 3-1 for 3rd place:
Round 1: 2-0 vs Jeskai control
Game 1 he played like land land land remand (which i countered) and died to delver+goyf.
Game 2 was longer, he had multiple colonades and I had a 3/4 goyf, 2 tar pits, and a fist full of counterspells including cryptic. TSN turning point he casts a keranos that I counter, buffing goyf to 4/5 and overpowering colonnades.
Round 2: 2-0 vs RUG twin
G1: He bolts my t1 delver and then visions or something, which lets me get a t2 goyf online that he never handles. I counter his exarchs/snapcasters.
G2: His first turn is serum, second turn is serum serum, third turn is snap serum miss land drop... he still almost gets there with a Thragtuks into keranos into goyf+goyf+cryptic. I drew goyf-dispel-goyf and while keranos bolted away my snaps and delvers, the dispel got the command and my 3 goyfs > his 2 goyfs.
Round 3: 1-2 vs Rakdos Burn
G1: He is stuck on one land for 3 turns... but despite t1 serum t2 thought scour I have 0 creatures and af ist full of counterspells instead. I get to 6 lands without playing a single body and am attacking him with a tar pit at 17 life... he draws 2 lands and empties his hand while i look on in disgust. A single tasigur or goyf and this is not even close. A snapcaster and at least its a game.
G2: I keep a one lander with a visions goyf and tasigur, t1 visions finds no lands, AND forces me to scry two feed the clans to the bottom :/ on next draw step finds no lands. T3 I hit 2nd land drop and lay the goyf which is frankly all it takes to beat this mogg fanatic deck. He gets me to 9 when I cast a feed the clan on a 4/5 tas 4/5 goyf just for the feel-goods. Other interesting note - I countered his t2 thunderous wrath miracle with a stubborn denial and a t4 thunderous wrath miracle with mana leak
G3: I keep a reasonable hand with 2 stubborn denials and draw a 3rd. He goes swiftspear swiftspear bump (denial but still take 5 off swift+fetch). The other 2 denials sit there uselessly as he just leaves 1 mana up all the time and pounds me down with swiftspears. 0 goyf, 0 tasigur, 0 feed the clan
Round 4: 2-0 vs merfolk
G1: t1 delver, flip, t2 thought scour tasigur fist pump. He vapor snags the tasigur... untaps and casts silvergill. t3 I thought scour and recast tasigur... he dismembers it, I play another delver and decay his reejery - delvers get there in the air (100% hit on blind flips).
G2: Keep fetch + tomb and a bunch of blue spells. T1 delver, T2 flip he vapor snags it. I decide i need to hit my land drops and go for the serum visions, drawing breeding pool and scrying into a vapor snag (perfect). Recast delver, untap flip cast 2nd delver etc. Meanwhile he goes t2 nothing... (how does this happen in merfolk) t3 thassa, t4 master of waves. Snag the master. He recasts, snap-snag the master gg.
Honestly burn matchup felt like just plain old bad beats. I have 2 skites a dispel and THREE feed the clans. If one feed the clan goes off with ferocious, or if 2 go off non-ferocious (ie snapcaster) this one is not close. I need early goyf though to block and get ferocious up
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
As far as hooting mandrils goes, it really depends on the style of play you're aiming for. Adam Fronsee ran three in his BUG list at the SCG event and I believe he went 11 games undefeated with the more aggressive version he put together, and he had 2 tasigur and 1 angler on top of the 3 hooters'. Only 2 snapcaster to make room for them, plus of course the 4 goyfs.
He was on camera for one match against Jund that you can catch on YouTube.
mandrils also gives you a decent body to put next to tasigur since you can't have two tasigur in play at the same time, diversifying your threats. Plus trample in nice against chumps.
Also, if you find that you're often not hitting your delve creatures often enough like you mentioned a couple times tonight, something you might consider is grisly salvage , it will find you the threat and pay for the delve to cast it all in one. Could be useful in some cases.
Also sidenotes for last night, Pulse was never useful - I used it vs jeskai to kill a snapcaster (it was otherwise dead in the matchup really). cryptic was meh, I bounced a colonnade and drew at one point, and vs merfolk I flipped it to delver and drew it but didn't have triple blue on my 4 lands :S. Rancor was worse - the losses to burn included rancor sitting in hand both losses. In the twin matchup it shortened my clock by a turn when I laid it on a tasigur, and would ensure he won any goyf battle, but was not super relevant as the game looked pretty well in hand.
Small sample size of course, but all 3 are still up for rotating out for other cards. Salvage always looked interesting as you could hit a snapcaster while binning the target you need, or hit a delve guy while paying 5 of the mana cost off the 4 binned cards and the salvage. I'm just not sure how much more cantripping the deck needs with 4 visions 4 scour 1 probe already.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I definitely want to try disrupting shoal for myself, it seems like a great fit with how many extra blue can trips we run that are an easy chunk to the bin if it means dodging removal. It doesn't help on the CA front, but it has that 'protect the hive' vibe that may be what this deck wants. Not too worried about being down a card if all you're threats are going the distance on your opponents' life total. I'll have to see for myself.
And maybe rancor is a little to win-more of a card here... it's great with the right opener and no disruption when you're ahead but does little to nothing if your on the back foot. Bad top deck in that regard. I still think simic charm might be the better flavor for a pump spell here since it has the other modes but I might try it as a one of anyways.