The reason for dragonlord ojutai is 3-fold actually. The 5 power turns on Stubborn Denial and the attack trigger digs you through your deck to find key cards you need in many situations. Also, the hexproof before combat and flying makes interacting with the damage difficult, so it is a valuable threat. The only creature comparative to that would not be restoration angel but batterskull in my opinion, simply because it keeps you in the game just as much.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
How about Geist of Saint Traft? With the reckoner set up and drop bird you could run around 3 and basically force a really strong early game beat and end with burn/skreding the reckoner.
And I think BBD played a few crucial points wrong, but I need to watch it again with analytical thinking...but from the jump I think the list he is using needs more fleshing out. There should be another vendillion clique and another dragonlord ojutai in place of the Soulfire Grand Masters I believe (a third stubborn denial is a debate-able inclusion)
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Went 2-1-1 with a variation of Sled-Dog's list. Basically took out the Boros Reckoners and modified the sideboard/mana base because I didn't have Blood Moon. Beat Affinity (crushed actually, even after mulling to five in Game 2), tied with Abzan, lost to this weird Blue Black Zombie Korlash Mill thing, and beat Mono Blue Tron.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
I've just been tinkering with boros variant trying to focus on shining shoal and brave the elements as ways to protect a swan from removal or opposing bolts. They are both also decent/good with reckoner.
Another idea - if we play mark of asylum we get to choose which prevention effect gets used right? Swans or mark? So we could shut down enemy burn in one fell swoop while still having access to our own burn-draw? Probably only out of the board, but it could do some work vs delver/snap-bolt/burn decks.
The other angle im considering is land destruction - I've tried lots of different RW decks around boom/bust or wildfire. That deck has 2 big weaknesses - it doesnt generate any CA, and it struggles to find a reliable win condition. Swans could be an answer to both problems. If opponent is missing land from the LD it may reduce the odds they can hit a swan for value, and just a single bolt on our swan for +3 might draw us the boom bust to lock up the game. Does that deck use mana rocks or spirit guides? maybe... right now just an idea!
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
The main tinkering I want to try would be a base Azorius version centered on Cavern of Souls and Geist of Saint Traft, with the red being a splash for Bolt and Helix and some sideboard goodies.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
it seems to me that mark of asylum prevents damage whether you like it or not, so skredding your own swan would get no draws. Frankly I think something like leyline of sanctity is the right anti-burn card. Something else to consider would either redirect or deflecting palm.
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On a different note, I'm wondering if there's a way to squeeze notion thief in somewhere. Being able to shut off the downside of swans would rule. It would take a small splash, which makes it a 4 color deck, but what would come out? Maybe it's a win-more card anyway.
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On a different note, I'm wondering if there's a way to squeeze notion thief in somewhere. Being able to shut off the downside of swans would rule. It would take a small splash, which makes it a 4 color deck, but what would come out? Maybe it's a win-more card anyway.
You could always cut the white splash in favor for a black one. In addition to Notion Thief you get access to hand disruption like Inquisition of Kozilek as well as hard removal like Terminate. You could even try running Tasigur too. The sideboard is probably where you'd lose the most ground when it comes to hosers, but it's an option.
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Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
Yeah, I think you're right. The other issue is notion thief doesn't win on it's own. Swans, ojutai, and reckoner can all give you wins. I think it's just too cute in a four color build. Grixis swans might have legs though, cruel ultimatum anyone? Or even kolaghan's command.
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I really do think black gives us better cards than white does for certain things, but it really comes down to how efficiently you can fetch through around your own blood moon; I say this because of the versus video I was watching, it felt very threat light. Kolaghan's Command and tasigur and terminate give us maindeck use of the splash color. lol @ Black Swan tho
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
The ? designates a flex spot; I could see a 1-1 split between Clique and Fulminator Mage there.
I don't think the mana base would be too much of an issue either; I mean, look at Grixis Delver. They have some pretty specific color requirements and they manage to squeeze in a couple Blood Moons pretty reliably. Or we could just go on the safe side and copy Chapin and run a full suite of Fulminator Mage
I do wonder how we'd manage to make room for goodies IOKs and Kommand in the main though.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
I would take out serum visions for thoughtsieze; counterflux and harvest pyre for 2x kolaghan's command, and both reckoners and ojutai for 2x tasigur and 2x notion thief. At least that's where I'd start. Maybe serum visions is neede to smooth out draws, but I want my early play to be disruption first if I'm running black.
Also, I'd move terminate to the sideboard in place of path to exile. I want burn main to facilitate swan draws. I also think something like redirect would be a great sideboard card. Now I'm intrigued.
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I think Serum Visions is too important to cut for the exact reasons you stated. Honestly the first things I'd look to cut would be the Stubborn Denials. One mana counters are great, but it's too conditional.
EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
That's reasonable. If notion thief is moved to the side would you run 4 tasigur? I was thinking 2 and 2 thief, though 2 vendilion clique might be right.
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I think 2 Tasgir is the correct number. While it's powerful, it is a legendary creature, and unless we run Thought Scour we won't be able to cast it reliably for one or two mana. I don't want to have my hand clogged with what's essentially a six drop. I like Vendilion Clique as a way to apply pressure and disruption, so I'd probably go with two of them or a 1-1 split between Clique and Notion Thief if I wanted to get cute. Maindeck Fulminator Mage wouldn't be out of the question either depending on your meta.
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Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
This thread is grabbing onto the wrong ideas and running amok... the first things to establish are what the alternate colors/manabases would provide, and then analyze which ones to bother with.
UR has better mana for Blood Moon and Cryptic, worse matchup against Burn/beats.
UBR has discard for combo, which is redundant with all the counterspells. Notion Thief is completely useless because it's just easier to not play into a deck that can abuse Swans and mitigate that angle by deriving an alternate plan of our own with the card slots we would've devoted to Notion Thief in the first place. There are some intriguing choices as far as tech go (I've flirted with the idea of Death's Shadow + Stubborn Denial,) but we will inevitably be playing a worse Jund deck if we strive to take away from the shell of the deck, and the critical mass of spells needed to drive that shell forward.
Instead of a pure WR shell, we might as well play Skred Red splashing white for Swans... but then what are we gaining by playing Swans, if we cannot reliably protect it with permission and tempo strategies?
Green? Doesn't do anything for the Swans + Burn plan. If we are going to go into Loam or anything similar we might as well play RBG Loam Rock unless we decide on Tarmogoyf for some reason. Seems a bit forced, and makes Harvest Pyre much worse.
Ultimately, after analyzing why white is so crucial... the answer lies solely in Soulfire Grand Master. This card can singlehandedly support Batterskull when fighting the Burn matchup as a solid core. Playing a host of permission/removal and using one of the aforementioned 3-4 spells as a "finisher" in the control sense is paramount. There is no other way you're going to successfully deter the burn plan without detracting from a host of great sideboard options, mucking up all your other matchups for no reason at all.
I could go on and on with my ideas for the deck but I'm pretty tired and don't want any double post infractions. However I will end on this note: the deck needs the following as a core at the very least
As for the Harvest Pyre, I'm not putting all my money on this one, but it is a fine choice for the shell instead of a late 'finisher' like Sphinx's Revelation, because of mana constraints. It's hard to tell if it is win-more just yet without testing, since Skred might be enough reach, but the deck needs something akin to either of the previously mentioned, or a Dig through Time, etc. etc. The further you steer away from the shell above, though, the better off you are changing strategies entirely.
EDIT: Upon further study I feel like 1x or 2x Spellskite in the main is something to be tweaked around for and tested. It is a huge boon in the Affinity, Burn, Bogles, Infect, and Twin matchups (among a number of other matchups as well, I'm sure). Also, in a vacuum, it's one of the best at stopping the opponent from taking out Swans or Grand Masters, which is absolutely critical in a list like this. Helps the deck shape up as a nice control-oriented build!
There's some problems with the Soulfire plan, namely that she is fragile as all get out and if you get to the point where you are looping Skreds you probably will be winning anyways. When I played with her, I found I was boarding her out in basically every matchup except Burn and other aggressive red decks. A bear with upside is still just that, a bear, and with the meta shifting more and more to Jund when it comes to BGx midrange--and by extension, Lightning Bolt--she's just too easily killed for my liking. She definitely hoses Burn, but she would be more useful in the side I think.
Also, Stubborn Denial should not be anything more than a 2-of. Early game, it's a Force Spike for non-creatures, which has flexibility, but ultimately I never want to see it until I have Swans on the board. Too often I've had it dead in my hand. If you want to protect Swans from instant-speed removal or burn, supplement the two Denial with a Dispel.
The main reason to run white is to take advantage of the multitude of hosers the color has at its disposal. Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Rule of Law, and other such cards can essentially shut down opposing decks. I don't even run Soulfire Grandmaster in my UWR list, and I can handle burn just fine. I just go with a radical sideboard shift, boarding out all my Swans in favor of Timely Reinforcements and Batterskull, becoming a traditional albeit very strange UWR Control list. Granted, I also run Dragonlord Ojutai as a backup win-con.
Finally, the deck is still in Deck Creation for a reason. The optimum list hasn't been found yet. We shouldn't limit ourselves to just a particular set of cards unless we absolutely know for certain that it works. At this point, we're still at the experimentation stage, tweaking numbers and colors to find that idea that can solidify the deck's place in the meta.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
I think you're dismissing just how important a card like that is in the grand scheme of things...in far too many situations it will be hard for the pilot to turn a losing board state around against aggro without Soulfires. This tech will turn your 60-40s on their heads and make things comfortable enough to actually leave a slight margin of error and allot for variance; with enough test games you ought to come to the same conclusion. There's nothing else that can allow for the critical mass of spells in the deck while keeping the player alive in more Game One scenarios. Control is about more options, and if you can manage to tweak the list into something that doesn't just roll over to a huge chunk of the meta without good reason, then there's no sense in not hedging your matchups to be more favorable across the board.
I've played way too many UB lists with edict effects in them to understand that just because you're boarding something out in "basically every matchup" it is still a necessary evil by a wide margin.
i can see soulfire against burn, but it doesn't help against aggro more than boros reckoner. Reckoner often takes out two dudes after damage is assigned, and can be skred late as a finisher. Against burn I take out a couple swans for kor firewalker which hoses them good. Maybe the black splash isn't an improvement, but I'm not sold on the SGM plan either.
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i can see soulfire against burn, but it doesn't help against aggro more than boros reckoner. Reckoner often takes out two dudes after damage is assigned, and can be skred late as a finisher. Against burn I take out a couple swans for kor firewalker which hoses them good. Maybe the black splash isn't an improvement, but I'm not sold on the SGM plan either.
Totally wrong. Against Affinity I would have lost in numerous situations where I had to block a smaller guy then shoot down whatever they strapped Plating to. It was much much more efficient to go from blocker -> Bolt their guy for a 3pt life cushion at 3 mana than at 4 mana. I could go on and on about how it provides insane reach in different matchups and how the ability can help you clutch out against midrange but if you're inclined to disagree then by all means.
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Resto Angel might be a good addition. Flash creatures I'm general are nice in the izzet build
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
And I think BBD played a few crucial points wrong, but I need to watch it again with analytical thinking...but from the jump I think the list he is using needs more fleshing out. There should be another vendillion clique and another dragonlord ojutai in place of the Soulfire Grand Masters I believe (a third stubborn denial is a debate-able inclusion)
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Another idea - if we play mark of asylum we get to choose which prevention effect gets used right? Swans or mark? So we could shut down enemy burn in one fell swoop while still having access to our own burn-draw? Probably only out of the board, but it could do some work vs delver/snap-bolt/burn decks.
The other angle im considering is land destruction - I've tried lots of different RW decks around boom/bust or wildfire. That deck has 2 big weaknesses - it doesnt generate any CA, and it struggles to find a reliable win condition. Swans could be an answer to both problems. If opponent is missing land from the LD it may reduce the odds they can hit a swan for value, and just a single bolt on our swan for +3 might draw us the boom bust to lock up the game. Does that deck use mana rocks or spirit guides? maybe... right now just an idea!
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
You could always cut the white splash in favor for a black one. In addition to Notion Thief you get access to hand disruption like Inquisition of Kozilek as well as hard removal like Terminate. You could even try running Tasigur too. The sideboard is probably where you'd lose the most ground when it comes to hosers, but it's an option.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 ?
The ? designates a flex spot; I could see a 1-1 split between Clique and Fulminator Mage there.
I don't think the mana base would be too much of an issue either; I mean, look at Grixis Delver. They have some pretty specific color requirements and they manage to squeeze in a couple Blood Moons pretty reliably. Or we could just go on the safe side and copy Chapin and run a full suite of Fulminator Mage
I do wonder how we'd manage to make room for goodies IOKs and Kommand in the main though.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Also, I'd move terminate to the sideboard in place of path to exile. I want burn main to facilitate swan draws. I also think something like redirect would be a great sideboard card. Now I'm intrigued.
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B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Notion Thief to me seems better off in the side.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I think 2 Tasgir is the correct number. While it's powerful, it is a legendary creature, and unless we run Thought Scour we won't be able to cast it reliably for one or two mana. I don't want to have my hand clogged with what's essentially a six drop. I like Vendilion Clique as a way to apply pressure and disruption, so I'd probably go with two of them or a 1-1 split between Clique and Notion Thief if I wanted to get cute. Maindeck Fulminator Mage wouldn't be out of the question either depending on your meta.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
UR has better mana for Blood Moon and Cryptic, worse matchup against Burn/beats.
UBR has discard for combo, which is redundant with all the counterspells. Notion Thief is completely useless because it's just easier to not play into a deck that can abuse Swans and mitigate that angle by deriving an alternate plan of our own with the card slots we would've devoted to Notion Thief in the first place. There are some intriguing choices as far as tech go (I've flirted with the idea of Death's Shadow + Stubborn Denial,) but we will inevitably be playing a worse Jund deck if we strive to take away from the shell of the deck, and the critical mass of spells needed to drive that shell forward.
Instead of a pure WR shell, we might as well play Skred Red splashing white for Swans... but then what are we gaining by playing Swans, if we cannot reliably protect it with permission and tempo strategies?
Green? Doesn't do anything for the Swans + Burn plan. If we are going to go into Loam or anything similar we might as well play RBG Loam Rock unless we decide on Tarmogoyf for some reason. Seems a bit forced, and makes Harvest Pyre much worse.
Ultimately, after analyzing why white is so crucial... the answer lies solely in Soulfire Grand Master. This card can singlehandedly support Batterskull when fighting the Burn matchup as a solid core. Playing a host of permission/removal and using one of the aforementioned 3-4 spells as a "finisher" in the control sense is paramount. There is no other way you're going to successfully deter the burn plan without detracting from a host of great sideboard options, mucking up all your other matchups for no reason at all.
I could go on and on with my ideas for the deck but I'm pretty tired and don't want any double post infractions. However I will end on this note: the deck needs the following as a core at the very least
2 Soulfire Grand Master
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
1 Harvest Pyre
As for the Harvest Pyre, I'm not putting all my money on this one, but it is a fine choice for the shell instead of a late 'finisher' like Sphinx's Revelation, because of mana constraints. It's hard to tell if it is win-more just yet without testing, since Skred might be enough reach, but the deck needs something akin to either of the previously mentioned, or a Dig through Time, etc. etc. The further you steer away from the shell above, though, the better off you are changing strategies entirely.
EDIT: Upon further study I feel like 1x or 2x Spellskite in the main is something to be tweaked around for and tested. It is a huge boon in the Affinity, Burn, Bogles, Infect, and Twin matchups (among a number of other matchups as well, I'm sure). Also, in a vacuum, it's one of the best at stopping the opponent from taking out Swans or Grand Masters, which is absolutely critical in a list like this. Helps the deck shape up as a nice control-oriented build!
Also, Stubborn Denial should not be anything more than a 2-of. Early game, it's a Force Spike for non-creatures, which has flexibility, but ultimately I never want to see it until I have Swans on the board. Too often I've had it dead in my hand. If you want to protect Swans from instant-speed removal or burn, supplement the two Denial with a Dispel.
The main reason to run white is to take advantage of the multitude of hosers the color has at its disposal. Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Rule of Law, and other such cards can essentially shut down opposing decks. I don't even run Soulfire Grandmaster in my UWR list, and I can handle burn just fine. I just go with a radical sideboard shift, boarding out all my Swans in favor of Timely Reinforcements and Batterskull, becoming a traditional albeit very strange UWR Control list. Granted, I also run Dragonlord Ojutai as a backup win-con.
Finally, the deck is still in Deck Creation for a reason. The optimum list hasn't been found yet. We shouldn't limit ourselves to just a particular set of cards unless we absolutely know for certain that it works. At this point, we're still at the experimentation stage, tweaking numbers and colors to find that idea that can solidify the deck's place in the meta.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
I've played way too many UB lists with edict effects in them to understand that just because you're boarding something out in "basically every matchup" it is still a necessary evil by a wide margin.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Totally wrong. Against Affinity I would have lost in numerous situations where I had to block a smaller guy then shoot down whatever they strapped Plating to. It was much much more efficient to go from blocker -> Bolt their guy for a 3pt life cushion at 3 mana than at 4 mana. I could go on and on about how it provides insane reach in different matchups and how the ability can help you clutch out against midrange but if you're inclined to disagree then by all means.