What do you guys think is the best creature to use with hexproof in Soulflayer deck?
I've been using Sylvan Caryatid but the fact that it can't attack and be used for alternative wincon like Viashino Slaughtermaster hurts.
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What do you guys think is the best creature to use with hexproof in Soulflayer deck?
I've been using Sylvan Caryatid but the fact that it can't attack and be used for alternative wincon like Viashino Slaughtermaster hurts.
I have Gladecover Scout and Caryatid currently acting as placeholders until I can get my hands on Troll Ascetic and/or Thrun, the Last Troll. Playing out a turn one Scout can give your opponent the wrong idea about your deck, but is pretty lame in the pressure department.
Has anybody tried out Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for a shell of this? He helps loot and can give us the ability to reuse our spells already cast. I also can't help but think to include like a 1 of Gifts Ungiven and potentially have some catch all 2 card creatures you can dump into the yard and get all the abilities you want. Like a hypothetical chromanticore and Troll Ascetic dumped to yard at EOT and then cast Mindflayer on your turn to give Soulflayer all the abilities. As I am brainstorming, I remember one of the reasons I initially was turned off of Soulflayer when he was spoiled. He doesn't get protection :-(... Anyway, just some thoughts. Another potential option is to run Zombie Infestation because it doubles as both a discard outlet and puts dudes onto the board.
Has anybody tried out Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for a shell of this? He helps loot and can give us the ability to reuse our spells already cast. I also can't help but think to include like a 1 of Gifts Ungiven and potentially have some catch all 2 card creatures you can dump into the yard and get all the abilities you want. Like a hypothetical chromanticore and Troll Ascetic dumped to yard at EOT and then cast Mindflayer on your turn to give Soulflayer all the abilities. As I am brainstorming, I remember one of the reasons I initially was turned off of Soulflayer when he was spoiled. He doesn't get protection :-(... Anyway, just some thoughts. Another potential option is to run Zombie Infestation because it doubles as both a discard outlet and puts dudes onto the board.
I prefer keeping it to as few colors as possible. The manabase I have in currently is very painful already. White has promise, but Blue doesn't add much to Plan A of a super Soulflayer. Gifts Ungiven is too slow for us, unless we give up on our Turn 3 win plan. We don't really play any spells that we really want to flashback, outside of the already able Faithless Looting. Chromanticore was the creature Flayer got paired with throughout their common standard, but while Chromanticore added a lot of keywords, it didn't add most of the important ones for this build, which are Double Strike, Haste, Hexproof/Indestructible and Flying/Trample. If I were to add a creature just for the abilities, I would instead add Akroma, Angel of Wrath. That would also allow us to play a stronger Cairn Wanderer as a backup plan. Protection would have been nice, but Hexproof and Indestructible make it mostly redundant. Your proposed role for Zombie Infestation is already done better by Lotleth Troll and Oona's Prowler.
Has anybody tried out Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for a shell of this? He helps loot and can give us the ability to reuse our spells already cast. I also can't help but think to include like a 1 of Gifts Ungiven and potentially have some catch all 2 card creatures you can dump into the yard and get all the abilities you want. Like a hypothetical chromanticore and Troll Ascetic dumped to yard at EOT and then cast Mindflayer on your turn to give Soulflayer all the abilities. As I am brainstorming, I remember one of the reasons I initially was turned off of Soulflayer when he was spoiled. He doesn't get protection :-(... Anyway, just some thoughts. Another potential option is to run Zombie Infestation because it doubles as both a discard outlet and puts dudes onto the board.
Jace and Gifts Ungiven would fit nice in the control version Travis Woo once made. Nice idea, but unless there's plenty of removal spells to buy time, Jace and Gift Ungiven is not quick enough. Goal of this deck is to play super soulflayer by turn 2~4 so it doesn't play much removal spells unfortunately. If you really like tutor spell, I recommend Jarad's Orders since it fit in the color and unlike Gift Ungiven it can grab Soulflayer too. Reason why we prefer Lotleth Troll and Oona's Prowler over Zombie Infestation is because they are creature. Soulflayer doesn't get any ability by delving Zombie Infestation. Zombie Infestation might see play if this deck starts utilizing dredge mechanic more often though
I'm thinking of adding Mortuary Mire so this deck can utilize dredge mechanic more aggressively. It also convenient when Soulflayer is discarded by Thoughtseize. Here's a rough sketch.
I can't believe no one has mentioned Gurmag Swiftwing. It was basically tailor made for Soulflayer. They even came out in the same block!
Pyrewild Shaman isn't quite what Ghor-Clan is because it grants trample but if you manage to Delve a Swiftwing then hopefully the trample won't be necessary because of flying. Pyrewild is awesome though because its repeatable, potentially. Its an option at least.
Wrecking Ogre is probably too expensive but I thought I'd through him out there. The Bloodrush ability is very tempting because it puts him in the yard to Delve out later but it can still grant Double Strike from the hand AND it comes with a +3/+3 buff if you can Bloodrush it. That makes Soulflayer a 7/7 double strike even if you hard cast him.
Tormenting Voice would basically replace Grisly Salvage. You only discard 1 card which sucks but you draw two and that may get you what you need. Plus it goes to the yard itself and still enables a turn 3 Soulflayer. Best you can do outside of green I think.
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I believe I did bring up the Standard Version I ran at one FNM. Gurmag Swiftwing is an adequate replacement for Uktabi Drake, but it doesn't self sacrifice, which we want. Tormenting Voice seems fine on paper, but is ridiculously slow in practice. Xathrid Slyblade is a black source of Hexproof, which is important.
Cards that weren't in the Standard version I tried. I gave Wrecking Ogre a shot, but it is just too slow. Pyrewild Shaman is just a bad card. It doesn't help with anything we want to be doing. Ghor-Clan Rampager gives a bigger boost and Trample, which is very important, especially when you are using it on Viashino Slaughtermaster, and is not a bad creature to have on board if plans A and B both fail.
So adding Vengevine along with Spark Elemental made plan B a lot dependable. Now I just need to find space for more Ghor-Clan to stabilize plan A. Problem is Ghor-Clan and Vengvine don't get along. I need help figuring this dilemma out. Is cutting Ghor-Clan the right choice?
p.s. thank you BigGrizzly for commenting on almost every reply since I'm not very good at explaining I tend to ignore some..
Sweet thread. I was messing around with this card upon release, as I love Black, love Demons, and love Delve. :]
A few cards I dont see if we morph away from Combo and into Midrange are Life from the Loam, Woodland Wanderer, Stinkweed Imp. If you are able to get a Soulflayer in hand, and dump a Dredge card, it sets up your T2/T3 really well I find.
Cairn Wanderer was actually what gave me the idea to look at Soulflayer, as I've been crushed by it before.
I was actually considering using Tainted Strike again instead of Ghor-Clan Rampager if we're using both Soulflayer and Cairn Wanderer since they both have power 4. If the deck consist 4 Soulflayer and 2~4 Cairn Wanderer it less likely for tainted strike to rot in hand. I don't have a decklist or anything but it seems like a fun idea.
It also interesting how there are various methods to tutor for Cairn Wanderer like Treefolk Harbinger, Flamekin Harbinger, and other harbingers. They can provide early blocker and give us reason to run only 1~2 Carin Wanderer. We don't want to run too many Cairn Wanderer since they don't synergize with Soulflayer.
I am very against Tainted Strike in this deck since it is only good when we have an unimpeded, double striking Soulflayer or Cairn Wanderer. Ghor-Clan Rampager is infinitely better in those games where Viashino Slaughtermaster or Prophetic Flamespeaker are doing your heavy lifting, otherwise known as Plan B. It also works as a respectable threat on its own, which is Plan C. Tainted Strike is Plan A or Bust.
As for Cairn Wanderer, I like the card, but it feels so slow in this deck. We are sitting at 18-20 lands in our builds and games rarely go long enough for Wanderer to see the field. I feel that if we are going to put more win conditions into this deck, we want to go with something quicker, like Vengevine or one of my pet cards Splinterfright.
See some kind of Dredgevine deck or Grave-Troll reanimator is more what I'd run with this rather than an aggro shell. Multicolour aggro decks with combos are historically incredibly inconsistent.
Keep in mind that going all in Grixis Delve with Thought Scour and two fetchlands can drop Gurmag Angler on you turn 2 as it is and then sit on counterspells and removal until you die from it. While it might be less impressive it is pretty consistent.
This is the Vengevine list I'm working on currently. I'm still testing on the consistency, but Vengevine allows alternative turn 3 kill without help of Ghor-Clan Rampager. Example; turn 1 cast Faithless Looting discarding Vengevine. Turn 2 cast Uktabi Drake and Spark Elemental and attack with Vengevine, Spark Elemental, and Drake for 9 Damage. Turn 3 cast Soulflayer and attack along with Vengevine for 8~12 damage. In this decklist there are choice of going Ghor-Clan plan or Vengevine plan depending on the opening hand.
While I never got to live the dream, this was a lot of fun, fast as I was maxing on the Vengevine plan, and less on Soulflayer (so more 1 drops, vs the value package I had going for Soulflayer) but good and something I want to tune up.
Well before, I was running a lot of 3 drops, which where decent enough, but didnt bring much quickly. I'd been looking for a home for Prophetic Flamespeaker and Vampire Nighthawk, and with the added value for SoulFlayer those seem borderline playable.
Instead though, with the 4 Vengevines, I like the smaller guys more so I can push out multiple creatures at a time.
I'm running Gravecrawler, Gurmag Swiftwing, and Vault Skirge and while Gravecrawler isnt adding anything to Soulflayer, its still a solid enough recursive creature for Vengevine abuse.
I don't want this deck to be another Dredgevine varient (although it showing the most success) so I'm thinking of going back to the non-vengevine approach. Currently brainstorming for new plan B idea.
Here's a deck by Alec Wilson. This deck uses Serum Powder, Gemstone Caverns, and Pull from Eternity as main engine to basically tutor a card into graveyard. Pull from Eternity can be used as an Entomb to grab a creature with relevant keyword for Soulflayer or used to flashback Unburial Rites. I haven't tested this deck personally but it an interesting approach that hasn't been mentioned here so I though I should share.
Here's a deck by Alec Wilson. This deck uses Serum Powder, Gemstone Caverns, and Pull from Eternity as main engine to basically tutor a card into graveyard. Pull from Eternity can be used as an Entomb to grab a creature with relevant keyword for Soulflayer or used to flashback Unburial Rites. I haven't tested this deck personally but it an interesting approach that hasn't been mentioned here so I though I should share.
I don't know the numbers, but the Serum Powder/Gemstone Caverns + Pull From Eternity seems like a horribly inconsistent combo with very little payoff. Even with a perfect hand, You aren't doing anything quickly. Turn 3 win is out the window. This really just looks like it wants to be the Gifts Ungiven list, which could be a viable plan, but is a completely different deck than the original intent of this thread. The original deck wanted to kill quickly with a hasty, double-striking Soulflayer. The Esper lists look like Unburial Gifts decks with a Soulflayer Plan B. Vengevine stays on the same line as the original, beating down with a hasted threat on turn 2, while also feeding Soulflayer if necessary.
I don't know the numbers, but the Serum Powder/Gemstone Caverns + Pull From Eternity seems like a horribly inconsistent combo with very little payoff. Even with a perfect hand, You aren't doing anything quickly. Turn 3 win is out the window. This really just looks like it wants to be the Gifts Ungiven list, which could be a viable plan, but is a completely different deck than the original intent of this thread. The original deck wanted to kill quickly with a hasty, double-striking Soulflayer. The Esper lists look like Unburial Gifts decks with a Soulflayer Plan B. Vengevine stays on the same line as the original, beating down with a hasted threat on turn 2, while also feeding Soulflayer if necessary.
One thing I like about this deck beside the unique synergy between Powder/Caverns/Pull is that it can play turn 1 Soulflayer with haste and double strike. Maybe we can figure out a method to play soulflayer on turn 1 more consistently. Another thing that caught my attention was Leyline of Lifeforce. I'm considering using this card for sideboard on Soulvine list since over half of the card in that deck are creature spells.
I've been using Sylvan Caryatid but the fact that it can't attack and be used for alternative wincon like Viashino Slaughtermaster hurts.
Jace and Gifts Ungiven would fit nice in the control version Travis Woo once made. Nice idea, but unless there's plenty of removal spells to buy time, Jace and Gift Ungiven is not quick enough. Goal of this deck is to play super soulflayer by turn 2~4 so it doesn't play much removal spells unfortunately. If you really like tutor spell, I recommend Jarad's Orders since it fit in the color and unlike Gift Ungiven it can grab Soulflayer too. Reason why we prefer Lotleth Troll and Oona's Prowler over Zombie Infestation is because they are creature. Soulflayer doesn't get any ability by delving Zombie Infestation. Zombie Infestation might see play if this deck starts utilizing dredge mechanic more often though
4x Soulflayer
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Hellspark Elemental
2x Uktabi Drake
4x Viashino Slaughtermaster
2x Prophetic Flamespeaker
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Faithless Looting
4x Grisly Salvage
Lands x21
4x Mortuary Mire
17x fetch, shock, basics etc
Life from the Loam would make Mortuary Mire even better but maybe that going too far.
4x Soulflayer
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Viashino Slaughtermaster
4x Spark Elemental
4x Vengevine
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Uktabi Drake
2x Vault Skirge
4x Faithless Looting
3x Grisly Salvage
2x Lightning Axe
Lands x20
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mortuary Mire
This is the list I've been working on lately. New additions are Mortuary Mire, Stinkweed Imp, and Vengevine. Spark Elemental made a comeback and Ghor-Clan Rampager is out as of now. I want to eventually return atleast 3 Ghor-Clan back in the deck though.
I can't believe no one has mentioned Gurmag Swiftwing. It was basically tailor made for Soulflayer. They even came out in the same block!
Pyrewild Shaman isn't quite what Ghor-Clan is because it grants trample but if you manage to Delve a Swiftwing then hopefully the trample won't be necessary because of flying. Pyrewild is awesome though because its repeatable, potentially. Its an option at least.
Wrecking Ogre is probably too expensive but I thought I'd through him out there. The Bloodrush ability is very tempting because it puts him in the yard to Delve out later but it can still grant Double Strike from the hand AND it comes with a +3/+3 buff if you can Bloodrush it. That makes Soulflayer a 7/7 double strike even if you hard cast him.
Tormenting Voice would basically replace Grisly Salvage. You only discard 1 card which sucks but you draw two and that may get you what you need. Plus it goes to the yard itself and still enables a turn 3 Soulflayer. Best you can do outside of green I think.
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Cards that weren't in the Standard version I tried. I gave Wrecking Ogre a shot, but it is just too slow. Pyrewild Shaman is just a bad card. It doesn't help with anything we want to be doing. Ghor-Clan Rampager gives a bigger boost and Trample, which is very important, especially when you are using it on Viashino Slaughtermaster, and is not a bad creature to have on board if plans A and B both fail.
4x Soulflayer
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Viashino Slaughtermaster
4x Spark Elemental
4x Vengevine
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Uktabi Drake
2x Vault Skirge
4x Faithless Looting
3x Grisly Salvage
Lands x20
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mortuary Mire
So adding Vengevine along with Spark Elemental made plan B a lot dependable. Now I just need to find space for more Ghor-Clan to stabilize plan A. Problem is Ghor-Clan and Vengvine don't get along. I need help figuring this dilemma out. Is cutting Ghor-Clan the right choice?
p.s. thank you BigGrizzly for commenting on almost every reply since I'm not very good at explaining I tend to ignore some..
A few cards I dont see if we morph away from Combo and into Midrange are Life from the Loam, Woodland Wanderer, Stinkweed Imp. If you are able to get a Soulflayer in hand, and dump a Dredge card, it sets up your T2/T3 really well I find.
I also really like Wanderer.
I'll write up my list in a bit.
Spirits
You could also run Unburial Rites with a monstrosity you could Delve with Soulflayer like Sphinx Of The Steel Wind and Akroma, Angel of Wrath
While Cairn Wanderer isn't as fast as Soulflayer it could be considered for an alternate win.
Spirits
I was actually considering using Tainted Strike again instead of Ghor-Clan Rampager if we're using both Soulflayer and Cairn Wanderer since they both have power 4. If the deck consist 4 Soulflayer and 2~4 Cairn Wanderer it less likely for tainted strike to rot in hand. I don't have a decklist or anything but it seems like a fun idea.
It also interesting how there are various methods to tutor for Cairn Wanderer like Treefolk Harbinger, Flamekin Harbinger, and other harbingers. They can provide early blocker and give us reason to run only 1~2 Carin Wanderer. We don't want to run too many Cairn Wanderer since they don't synergize with Soulflayer.
As for Cairn Wanderer, I like the card, but it feels so slow in this deck. We are sitting at 18-20 lands in our builds and games rarely go long enough for Wanderer to see the field. I feel that if we are going to put more win conditions into this deck, we want to go with something quicker, like Vengevine or one of my pet cards Splinterfright.
Keep in mind that going all in Grixis Delve with Thought Scour and two fetchlands can drop Gurmag Angler on you turn 2 as it is and then sit on counterspells and removal until you die from it. While it might be less impressive it is pretty consistent.
4x Soulflayer
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Viashino Slaughtermaster
4x Vengevine
4x Uktabi Drake
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Spark Elemental
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Vault Skirge
Spells x7
4x Faithless Looting
3x Grisly Salvage
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Forest
4x Thoughtseize
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Pyroclasm
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Vault Skirge
1x Spellskite
This is the Vengevine list I'm working on currently. I'm still testing on the consistency, but Vengevine allows alternative turn 3 kill without help of Ghor-Clan Rampager. Example; turn 1 cast Faithless Looting discarding Vengevine. Turn 2 cast Uktabi Drake and Spark Elemental and attack with Vengevine, Spark Elemental, and Drake for 9 Damage. Turn 3 cast Soulflayer and attack along with Vengevine for 8~12 damage. In this decklist there are choice of going Ghor-Clan plan or Vengevine plan depending on the opening hand.
Spirits
Spirits
Instead though, with the 4 Vengevines, I like the smaller guys more so I can push out multiple creatures at a time.
I'm running Gravecrawler, Gurmag Swiftwing, and Vault Skirge and while Gravecrawler isnt adding anything to Soulflayer, its still a solid enough recursive creature for Vengevine abuse.
Spirits
4 Soulflayer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Ascended Lawmage
3 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Drogskol Reaver
Spells x18
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Serum Powder
2 Unburial Rites
4 Gemstone Caverns
1 Polluted Delta
1 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass
2 Mana Confluence
3 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
1 Arid Mesa
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Unburial Rites
4 Erase
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
You can find this list on bottom comment section here. http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/brew-with-woo-soulflayer/
One thing I like about this deck beside the unique synergy between Powder/Caverns/Pull is that it can play turn 1 Soulflayer with haste and double strike. Maybe we can figure out a method to play soulflayer on turn 1 more consistently. Another thing that caught my attention was Leyline of Lifeforce. I'm considering using this card for sideboard on Soulvine list since over half of the card in that deck are creature spells.
edit: this is his updated list
4 Soulflayer
4 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Drogskol Reaver
4 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells x19
4 Serum Powder
4 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
3 Pull from Eternity
2 Unburial Rites
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Mana Confluence
4 Polluted Delta
3 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
4x Wear // Tear
2x Dismember
1x Unburial Rites
I really like Spoils of the Vault as an additional tutor spell for Soulflayer.