I've been running this deck through leagues today and I've been having a ton of fun. The worst I've done is 3-2, with most of my losses coming due to Remand. Graveyard hate has been pretty easy to fight through as keyword soup creatures can still be hardcast relatively easily. I feel like Hexproof has been super important to my wins, but there aren't very many choices we seem to have.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I feel like Hexproof has been super important to my wins, but there aren't very many choices we seem to have.
I agree that hexproof is the most important keyword for Soulflayer. Currently I'm playing Rhonas the Indomitable as replacement for Vampire Nighthawk for additional indestructible which is like psudo-hexproof. I'm also considering Carnage Tyrant and Thrun, the Last Troll as additional hexproof fodder.
If you were to play again what would you change about the deck?
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If can get my hands on one, I might give it a go. Being able to snag it off of 8 cards in the main helps out too.
I agree that hexproof is the most important keyword for Soulflayer. Currently I'm playing Rhonas the Indomitable as replacement for Vampire Nighthawk for additional indestructible which is like psudo-hexproof. I'm also considering Carnage Tyrant and Thrun, the Last Troll as additional hexproof fodder.
I do like the death touch indestructible combination as well to help fight against other creature decks, and Tyrant seems fine to hard cast if necessary against control decks as well.
If you were to play again what would you change about the deck?
Honestly, I'm not too sure yet. Something about the sideboard feels off to me, but I haven't been able to pin point what it is. I'll probably just need to play more games first.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
This deck idea looks really cool, and it includes two of my favorite cards from their respective blocks. Kudos to the people who designed it.
If I may offer a suggestion, the decklist posted above might benefit from more enchantment hate in the sideboard. Rest in Peace and Blood Moon can both be extremely disruptive for this deck, and it would be beneficial to have more than two ways to deal with them.
Maybe Nature's Claim. Hits problem enchantments and can act as extra Grudge copies.
Rest In Peace and Blood Moon aren't the worst things ever, you can still use mana dorks for Moon and hardcasting Samut will still get there sometimes, but I do agree that is one of the things I think might need a tweak.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Some ramblings without too much effort put into coherent thought:
I've been playing some more, this time trying out Stubborn Denials over Birds, and a Rhonas and Tasigur as an additional enabler. Rhonas has never been seen at all, while Tasigur always eats a path. Might cut Tasigur for the 4th main deck Stubborn, or maybe a Carnage Tyrant as an additional hexproofer that also has some meat behind it. I've contemplated adding in a white shock so hardcast the Flayer is able to be done without relying on Caryatid, but haven't decided yet.
I'm thinking of trying Courier over Lotleth, but Troll beats have been relevant before, and they also provide another way of turning on the Denial.
I would like some more main deck board interaction, as something like a main deck Ensnaring Bridge is pretty much always game over. Sometimes Hazoret activations can get there, but Bridge decks usually have a Pithing Needle for her too.
Some more bullet Traverse targets in the board might be interesting, like a Reclamation Sage over a Grudge. I'm playing a Staticaster and it's been great.
Grisly Salvage is also a reason I'm thinking of this as it lets you grab the cards, and doesn't make flipping the top 5 become a risk of binning your hate cards when you also need to go for a Flayer.
Gravehate is more annoying than game ending at least. Troll and Samut's usually become the beat sticks as people assume we fold to grave hate and keep sketchy hands, and then lose to our bad mythic beats.
We could also cut the Nighthawk / God and focus on Samut and Chroma, opening up slots for interaction or Lingering Souls, but then I feel like we're just trying to be a bad 5 color Death's Shadow. Death Touch and Indestructible are also occasionally relevant.
Last thought is I think I want Fulminator's to help against Tron and Valakut since we can Traverse for it, but maybe it's better to just embrace the Blue and use Disdainful Strokes.
Sorry for the ramblings and any potential brain damage I've caused to people. Deck is a blast though.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I've been playing some more, this time trying out Stubborn Denials over Birds, and a Rhonas and Tasigur as an additional enabler. Rhonas has never been seen at all, while Tasigur always eats a path. Might cut Tasigur for the 4th main deck Stubborn, or maybe a Carnage Tyrant as an additional hexproofer that also has some meat behind it. I've contemplated adding in a white shock so hardcast the Flayer is able to be done without relying on Caryatid, but haven't decided yet.
Going beyond 3 color is always fun. I usually like splashing white for Oketra the True, Worship, Lingering Souls, etc. I feel like blue has lot to offer but I haven't found a deck I like with blue yet. Going 5 color sound hella risky tho, even with Birds of Paradise and Sylvan Caryatid.
Instead of adding additional hexproof creature as an approach against removal spells, I've been brewing this deck with Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality in the mainboard.
Benefit of running hand removal is that it can get rid of removal spells, counter spells, force opponent to cast Snapcaster Mage, and disrupting their game plan. The last part is the most important part. I've noticed after multiple test play that typical Soulflayer deck, at least the ones I use, will die immediately unless I cast Soulflayer by turn 4. I am usually forced to cast Soulflayer within turn 4 even if the graveyard doesn't have sufficient keyword creature in it. It like giving birth to a premature baby. Sometimes when I'm lucky I am able to cast Soulflayer with dozen ability by turn 4, but not the entire time. In other word, I want to make Soulflayer deck a bit more grindy in order to cast Soulflayer when the graveyard has plenty of ability enablers in it. Running counter spells in addition to hexproof enables sound great though.
I would like some more main deck board interaction, as something like a main deck Ensnaring Bridge is pretty much always game over. Sometimes Hazoret activations can get there, but Bridge decks usually have a Pithing Needle for her too.
Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to play around game 1. That the reason I play 4 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard but if we're able to find a good interaction spell for mainboard maybe we can cut back on some Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. I think Liliana of the Veil is good answer against Bridge because Bridge deck usually don't attack with creature so they can't stop Liliana from growing and hopefully we can care for pithing needle with grudge or Reclamation Sage. Potential mainboard interaction that doesn't require activation cost I can think of is Abrupt Decay. I am bit afraid of playing cards that doesn't synergize with Soulflayer and its combo pieces though.
We could also cut the Nighthawk / God and focus on Samut and Chroma, opening up slots for interaction or Lingering Souls, but thenI feel like we're just trying to be a bad 5 color Death's Shadow.
I try to avoid that by focusing on cards that can synergize with Soulflayer and its combo pieces, mainly Grisly Salvage and Traverse the Ulvenwald. I think Lingering Souls are great. Anything that benefits from going to graveyard or anything castable from graveyard is great with Grisly Salvage and Faithless Looting. We can probably take advantage of Lingering Souls better then Death's Shadow for that reason.
I'll give a try on playing blue too. Thanks for the ideas!
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Going beyond 3 color is always fun. I usually like splashing white for Oketra the True, Worship, Lingering Souls, etc. I feel like blue has lot to offer but I haven't found a deck I like with blue yet. Going 5 color sound hella risky tho, even with Birds of Paradise and Sylvan Caryatid.
Instead of adding additional hexproof creature as an approach against removal spells, I've been brewing this deck with Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality in the mainboard.
This list looks sweet! Double strike and lifelink has usually been what seals games away, so I can see replacing the Chromanticore with the Reaver. Although it costs 2 more, I can see that being much more manageable than all 5 colors when on the hardcast plan. Drawing cards is always sweet too if it comes to it. I've noticed that flying and lifelink are really the only keywords I benefit from with the Chroma itself, although the rare instances I get a Nighthawk / Rhonas the trample becomes relevant.
I feel like 12 doublestrike is a lot. Is the full 4 Oketra worth it? Indestructible is good, but I'm curious if maybe a 2/2 split with Hazoret is worth it. Both seem easy enough to "activate" if they are hard cast thanks to Souls and Lili/Axe/Brutality.
I tried some Liliana's in the side and enjoyed bringing them in. We don't care about discarding, and the interaction is a huge plus.
Nahiri and Lightning Axe seem sweet. I have a soft spot for Nahiri anyways, and Axe hitting 5 toughness, along with being a discard outlet, seems like it would fit in well.
Hopefully I can give this a few league runs and see if that spins the wheels some more.
Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to play around game 1. That the reason I play 4 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard but if we're able to find a good interaction spell for mainboard maybe we can cut back on some Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. I think Liliana of the Veil is good answer against Bridge because Bridge deck usually don't attack with creature so they can't stop Liliana from growing and hopefully we can care for pithing needle with grudge or Reclamation Sage. Potential mainboard interaction that doesn't require activation cost I can think of is Abrupt Decay. I am bit afraid of playing cards that doesn't synergize with Soulflayer and its combo pieces though.
Abrupt Decay or maybe Kolaghan's Command were really my only ideas. Both seem alright but with their own cons. Abrupt Decay can be a dud in the match up (Scapeshift) while K. Command doesn't really have anything we want to return other than Soulflayer.
I'll give a try on playing blue too. Thanks for the ideas!
The 4 main deck Stubborn have been huge for me. It's a light splash so it doesn't "hurt", and being able to have some interaction has lead to some sweet plays. I was able to Stubborn an Aether Vial game 1 and that just destroyed the opponent's hand alone.
It also provides a way to answer top decks that discard alone can not. I have had plenty of Relic / Rest in Peace off the top after a Thoughtseize.
With regards to updates on my ramblings, I'm going to try a Sage in the board in place of a Grudge as a tutorable target. Bomat Courier also been a solid "decent." The extra draw / discard has been nice, but the biggest bonus was having faster delirium for Traverse. Im still not sure if I want to include the little robot going forward though.
Edit:
As an update, I made the switch of Chromanticore to Drogskol Reaver, and so far I really like it. Double strike, Flying, Lifelink is key to taking over or stabilizing. Consistent Vigilance will be missed, but Double Strike is so good.
I also am going to move back to the Troll over the Courier. The Traverse + Activation, or multiple Courier Activation tricks are cool when they happen, but so often I'm about to pop the Courier to discard keywords and then draw a Soulflayer. Troll would let me still pitch those guys, while holding onto the Soulflayer. Given that Chroma is gone, this also gives me additional enablers for the Stubborn Denials.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Here is Soulflayer deck I'm experimenting with Liliana of the Veil that more similar to the delirium version. I wanted to keep the consistency of turn 3~4 Soulflayer while having some interactions. I want to play more Liliana mainboard but that most likely means removing some Lotleth Troll due to similarity in function as self-discard engine, but it seemed wrong because Trolls have better synergy with the deck. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is also huge. I don't want to remove anything else because that would slow the deck down or make Soulflayer weaker in game 1. So it comes down to just 1 Liliana in the mainboard. It should still make a big difference in a match up Liliana shines against such as control deck.
Liliana is really strong and I think it comes down to what's the cut rather than "is she worth it" like you've mentioned. Last Hope also seems pretty decent too as she can rebuy Flayers or just pick off little dorks. If I had either in paper I would definitely run them.
Speaking of which, after a week long delay with USPS, i finally receieved the paper cards for this deck. Granted it is still using Chromanticore over Drogskol Reaver, but that will work.
One thing I'm interested is something to help in this matchups where the opponent brings in a large amount of hate. We can still hard cast everything, which does work, but I was looking for some additional threats to bring in. One thought was Deaths Shadow given the fetch shock heavy mana base, but that doesn't seem super reliable without also going up to 4 Thoughtseize and probably Street Wraith as well.
Similarly, I think my hardest problem is determining when or how much to shave on the Flayers and Traverses when expecting graveyard hate. Lotleth Troll is a way to fight through it, but I'm always hesitant to shave the Flayer in case they dont have or dont see hate. What are your thoughts?
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
One thing I'm interested is something to help in this matchups where the opponent brings in a large amount of hate. We can still hard cast everything, which does work, but I was looking for some additional threats to bring in. One thought was Deaths Shadow given the fetch shock heavy mana base, but that doesn't seem super reliable without also going up to 4 Thoughtseize and probably Street Wraith as well.
For additional threat we can possibly increase the number of Hazoret the Fervent? I tried Hollow One before, but it didn't get along with Grisly Salvage and I prefer a beater that can contribute to Soulflayer. I feel like Death's Shadow will be like Hollow One but slightly worse because unlike Hollow One it doesn't help activate delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Similarly, I think my hardest problem is determining when or how much to shave on the Flayers and Traverses when expecting graveyard hate. Lotleth Troll is a way to fight through it, but I'm always hesitant to shave the Flayer in case they dont have or dont see hate. What are your thoughts?
I usually never shave off Soulflayer. As you mentioned it not always guaranteed that opponent will draw their graveyard hate. I usually start from cutting off unnecessary ability fodders and some Traverse the Ulvenwald depending on my opponent's deck.
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I have some really short notes, as these games were all pretty fast and lopsided.
Round 1: UW Tron
This is my other deck that a friend was borrowing. Both games were roughly the same with me pitching Keywords to a Lotleth Troll that eventually forced a response. This gave me a window to play a Soulflayer with Hexproof and Indestructible to seal the game away. Notably in game 2 my opponent went for a main phase Gifts to set up land drops but was hit by a naked Stubborn Denial.
2-0
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1 he mulled to 5, keeping a pretty slow hand. I had a Brutality and was able to fully Escalate to get Samut and Chroma into the yard. Unfortunately, I hadn't hit a fetch so I was one card off playing the Flayer and just hard cast a Caryatid. This chumped a Plated Ravager giving me my 4th card, and Hexproof. This led to the concession. Game 2 was a slower start from him as well. Turn 2 I Grisly Salvaged to get some keywords into the yard, picking up a Flayer. Turn 3 I Ancient Grudge'd his Overseer and Vault Skirge, which let me play the keyword soup Flayer and get a concession.
2-0
Round 3: Burn
Game 1 he had no idea what was going on, but had a Guide and Eidolon out with me at 8. He only had one land open so I Traversed, dropping to 6, grabbing the Flayer and then cracking in with 8 Lifelink. He untapped, realized he couldn't come back and scooped. Game 2 I kept a decent hand but ended up never being able to get anything into the yard and just died. Game 3 was similar in that he got me somewhat low but eventually tapped all but 1 land for an Eidolon. I Traversed down to 6 to pick up the Flayer and steal the game again
2-1
Round 4: Affinity (Split)
We decided to play this out just for fun. Game 1 I was only able to get a Chroma underneath a Flayer, and while that was slowly taking over the game, he was able to eventually get a Galv blast and win from there. Game 2 My turn 2 was Caryatid while his was Blood Moon. Fortunately I had played the Caryatid, and had a basic Swamp out, to which I followed up with a Staticaster. This took care of his dudes while a hardcast Samut continually cracked in. Highlight, Izzet Staticaster tap targetting 1 of 3 Ornithopters. Samut attacks, before blocks, tap Caryatid for white to untap Staticaster and kill all 3 Ornithopters. Game 3 I had a great hand, and I could either slow down a turn or 2 to play around Blood Moon, or force him to have it. I decided to force him to have it. He didn't have it... but he did have Rest In Peace. Eventually 2 Vault Scourges pumped by an Overseer got there as I kept drawing dead Traverses.
1-2
Overall, I felt good about the deck. 2 of the sideboard Ancient Grudge's were supposed to be Lightning Axe, but I had totally forgot them at home and the store was somehow all out. I would still make that change as I feel 2 Grudge, 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, and a Staticaster are more than enough to handle what I should run into. Nissa helps in the Rest In Peace games and as just a general grindy good stuff card. Stubborn Denial wasn't at it's best tonight, but I'm wondering if I should keep some in against Affinity. I've been siding all 4 out, but given they go for the early Blood Moon or Rest In Peace, maybe holding one up in those early turns is a good idea.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I'm surprised you took out Birds of Paradise for Stubborn Denial, but at the same time it seems reasonable since Birds are the most weakest and vulnerable card in the deck. I personally don't think you should keep Stubborn Denial against affinity. It better to swap it out for Ancient Grudge and other removal spell since it has more versatility. I'd rather have option to get rid of creatures against Affinity. In addition, keeping land open for Stubborn Denial means we have less action per turn which can slow us down and that seems more hurtful for us against fast opponent like affinity. If opponent doesn't cast any noncreature spell it'd be a waste of mana that could of been spent on something on our turn. I'd keep Stubborn Denial beyond game 2 against anything but aggro deck.
I like Nissa, Steward of Elements in your sideboard. I can imagine it will provide utility and alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. I've always wanted to play Keranos, God of Storms if I were to play blue since it'll also provide utility and possible alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. Not to mention it has indestructilble. Would you still prefer Nissa over Keranos or would you play both?
I also like Disdainful Stroke in your sideboard. Combined with Stubborn Denial, I can feel safe playing against tron. Izzet Staticaster is interestring. I forgot it had haste!
Do you mind if I post your deck on the introduction page of this thread? I feel like you have the best 4 color deck with blue and I'd help other people use your deck as reference.
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I'm surprised you took out Birds of Paradise for Stubborn Denial, but at the same time it seems reasonable since Birds are the most weakest and vulnerable card in the deck. I personally don't think you should keep Stubborn Denial against affinity. It better to swap it out for Ancient Grudge and other removal spell since it has more versatility. I'd rather have option to get rid of creatures against Affinity. In addition, keeping land open for Stubborn Denial means we have less action per turn which can slow us down and that seems more hurtful for us against fast opponent like affinity. If opponent doesn't cast any noncreature spell it'd be a waste of mana that could of been spent on something on our turn. I'd keep Stubborn Denial beyond game 2 against anything but aggro deck.
That's how I feel about it now too. I think it was just confirmation bias speaking since I was blindsided by the Rest in Peace. I was expecting Blood Moon, but not the other. I think it's better to just stick to the standard plan and consider it as an option, but not sideboard against something that may or may not be there.
I like Nissa, Steward of Elements in your sideboard. I can imagine it will provide utility and alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. I've always wanted to play Keranos, God of Storms if I were to play blue since it'll also provide utility and possible alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. Not to mention it has indestructilble. Would you still prefer Nissa over Keranos or would you play both?
Totally forgot about Keranos, and I think they both have merit. I haven't found indestructible totally relevant (locally) but he does serve the same purpose of an alt wincon. The reason I originally went with Nissa was that the Scry helps get rid of dead cards (like Traverse) and the 0 can cheat in stuff like Chroma that we may not have the mana for at the time. It also circumvents counter spells. I've only gotten to actually Nissa once, and at the point I played her she was win-more, so I can't give a definitive answer on that.
I also like Disdainful Stroke in your sideboard. Combined with Stubborn Denial, I can feel safe playing against tron. Izzet Staticaster is interestring. I forgot it had haste!
Disdainful has been an amazing card, especially given my local meta is infested with Eldrazi. It's also nice against control decks to snipe Gideons or Cryptics.
Do you mind if I post your deck on the introduction page of this thread? I feel like you have the best 4 color deck with blue and I'd help other people use your deck as reference.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
My plan with Stubborn Denial is to use it against graveyard hate after game 1. I think utilizing Birds of Paradise to play Soulflayer asap is better plan rather then holding on to counter spell that may not have valid target on game 1. After game 1 I plan on replacing whatever unnecessary ability enabler (for example Chromanticore against Storm) for Stubborn Denial. This way we can keep Birds of Paradise for extra mana we need for Stubborn Denial so we don't lose tempo. Then again, it all comes down to the local meta game. By all means, mainboard Stubborn Denial is a must if local meta is full of tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, and other spell heavy decks.
I want to play Keranos, God of Storms in the maindeck because It'll help trigger delirium and I don't think it a bad idea to have multiple alternative wincons in mainboard.
I like Striped Riverwinder because I can discard it immediately after drawing it or searching it with Traverse the Ulvenwald and casting Soulflayer right after. I think 5 is a good number for Hexproof since having too many is a problem too.
I chose Collective Brutality over Liliana of the Veil in this deck because this deck deals lot of damage to itself. And when it comes to playing counter spells, the difference between 2 and 3 mana is game changing.
By the way are there reason why you don't play Stomping Ground? It may not be necessary in your deck since you don't play Birds of Paradise but I was just curious.
My plan with Stubborn Denial is to use it against graveyard hate after game 1. I think utilizing Birds of Paradise to play Soulflayer asap is better plan rather then holding on to counter spell that may not have valid target on game 1. After game 1 I plan on replacing whatever unnecessary ability enabler (for example Chromanticore against Storm) for Stubborn Denial. This way we can keep Birds of Paradise for extra mana we need for Stubborn Denial so we don't lose tempo. Then again, it all comes down to the local meta game. By all means, mainboard Stubborn Denial is a must if local meta is full of tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, and other spell heavy decks.
I would say that is a fair assessment. I never felt Birds was a bad card, it just seemed like the easiest cut for the Denials. I also tried out Insolent Neonate but I was pretty unimpressed with the little vampire.
I want to play Keranos, God of Storms in the maindeck because It'll help trigger delirium and I don't think it a bad idea to have multiple alternative wincons in mainboard.
That's a pretty good point and I think I'll make the switch from Rhonas to Keranos. The deathtouch has almost never been relevant, and although Rhonas turns on Stubborn Denial, he's generally always just a dead body. Keranos will at least draw more stuff or kill the opponent. Helping power up Delirum is nice as well.
I like Striped Riverwinder because I can discard it immediately after drawing it or searching it with Traverse the Ulvenwald and casting Soulflayer right after. I think 5 is a good number for Hexproof since having too many is a problem too.
That is amazing. I'm definitely going to throw one in the deck. There have been many times where I have the Flayer and want to tutor up Hexproof but don't have a discard outlet.
I chose Collective Brutality over Liliana of the Veil in this deck because this deck deals lot of damage to itself. And when it comes to playing counter spells, the difference between 2 and 3 mana is game changing.
Liliana is definitely great in some match ups, but after playing Brutality, the ability to dump 2 keyword dues and steal an answer before dropping the Flayer has been huge. I definitely prefer the Brutality, at least Main.
By the way are there reason why you don't play Stomping Ground? It may not be necessary in your deck since you don't play Birds of Paradise but I was just curious.
I swapped it out for Breeding Pool to help with the blue, and at first didn't really miss it. I never wanted to fetch Stomping because it meant double Black was turn 3 at the earliest, but after playing the deck a few times last night, I really miss it. I had so many hands with a Looting Turn 1 and only a fetch land, with everything else taking Green. It's coming back in.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Newly spoiled white dinosaur in RIX. Flying, Double Strike, Vigilance, Trample, Indestructible. Any thought to it getting play here? 3/5 of Chromanticore’s keywords, swapping First Strike and Lifelink for Double Strike and Indestructible.
I want to say this is definitely an auto include. Obvious cut targets are Samut and Chromanticore, but they both have a single keyword that I actually like from them a lot, namely Haste and Lifelink. This pretty much covers every other important aspect.
A downside is that this will almost never be hardcast in games where gravehate is a thing, but there are ways around that like Quicksilver Amulet I suppose (or just pitch to Lotleth Troll).
The only two "lifelink haste" creatures we currently have access to are:
I much prefer the Spark Trooper since it includes Trample as well, and both are relatively easy to cast but 6 power is less embarassing than 3/3.
I might be wrong though and we don't need the Haste, but I have won a ton of games off of Lifelink so I think a replacement is mandatory.
Maybe we just go to 2 Chroma 2 Samut and 4 Primal Dawns.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I've definitely won a number of games thanks to a hardcast Samut, so that is a major point.
Although it is similar to the Sphinx and Akroma, Indestructible is big. Previously our only real options were Amonkhet gods which brought along another keyword, while this brings FOUR including the best combination of Samut and Chromanticore. Haste and Lifelink missing are noticeable though, but I don't think we will ever have the perfect soup card printed.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Another advantage Chromanticore has over this is being an enchantment... when we’re Traversing the Ulvenwald, a Chromanticore in our grave is halfway to Delirium on its own, while this would be just-a-Creature.
Although it may not be as relevant as Zetalpa, Primal Dawn, I was also pretty excited when I saw Enter the Unknown. This card can be used as semi-cantrip/mill, ramp, and pump spell with just one mana. Ramping can help hardcast samut and Hazoret(if we're still playing it). Down side is that it can't be played on turn 1, and it can fizzle if target creature is gone. I can't guarantee the consistency as of now but I think it worth test playing.
Zetalpa is for sure worth playing. Biggest question is to replace it with which card. I am planning to replace it with either Birds of Paradise, Hazoret the Fervent or both.
Happy new year everyone!
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Do you still plan on playing the full 4 Samut and Chromanticore as well?
I'm thinking of trying a 2/2/4 Samut/Chroma/Zetalpa split or a 4/4 split with Spark Trooper and Zetalpa, and then turning my Hazorets into more interaction. Although hardcasting Zetalpa is likely out of the question, moving my Blue splash to White let'lets s me run Souls which has a great synergy with Salvage and Souls.
Denial was really for Storm, but with Traverse I can probably just run a sideboard Eidolon of Rhetoric and bank on the more useful Discard for interaction.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Acis, looking at your most recent list, I'm wondering about how reliably you'd get the Delirium condition if you move out your deck's enchantments (the Chromanticores) while still having no planeswalkers, artifacts, or tribals. Land-Instant-Sorcery-Creature is possible, sure, but it seems a much riskier proposition when you don't have a fifth-type safety net. I'd be worried those Traverses are just basic land finders all too often.
If you're moving out of blue ... does that leave Grisly Salvage as your sole Instants?
I've been running this deck through leagues today and I've been having a ton of fun. The worst I've done is 3-2, with most of my losses coming due to Remand. Graveyard hate has been pretty easy to fight through as keyword soup creatures can still be hardcast relatively easily. I feel like Hexproof has been super important to my wins, but there aren't very many choices we seem to have.
You should try a version with Cavern of Souls in maindeck. It searchable with Traverse the Ulvenwald and Grisly Salvage.
I agree that hexproof is the most important keyword for Soulflayer. Currently I'm playing Rhonas the Indomitable as replacement for Vampire Nighthawk for additional indestructible which is like psudo-hexproof. I'm also considering Carnage Tyrant and Thrun, the Last Troll as additional hexproof fodder.
If you were to play again what would you change about the deck?
If can get my hands on one, I might give it a go. Being able to snag it off of 8 cards in the main helps out too.
I do like the death touch indestructible combination as well to help fight against other creature decks, and Tyrant seems fine to hard cast if necessary against control decks as well.
Honestly, I'm not too sure yet. Something about the sideboard feels off to me, but I haven't been able to pin point what it is. I'll probably just need to play more games first.
If I may offer a suggestion, the decklist posted above might benefit from more enchantment hate in the sideboard. Rest in Peace and Blood Moon can both be extremely disruptive for this deck, and it would be beneficial to have more than two ways to deal with them.
Rest In Peace and Blood Moon aren't the worst things ever, you can still use mana dorks for Moon and hardcasting Samut will still get there sometimes, but I do agree that is one of the things I think might need a tweak.
I've been playing some more, this time trying out Stubborn Denials over Birds, and a Rhonas and Tasigur as an additional enabler. Rhonas has never been seen at all, while Tasigur always eats a path. Might cut Tasigur for the 4th main deck Stubborn, or maybe a Carnage Tyrant as an additional hexproofer that also has some meat behind it. I've contemplated adding in a white shock so hardcast the Flayer is able to be done without relying on Caryatid, but haven't decided yet.
I'm thinking of trying Courier over Lotleth, but Troll beats have been relevant before, and they also provide another way of turning on the Denial.
I would like some more main deck board interaction, as something like a main deck Ensnaring Bridge is pretty much always game over. Sometimes Hazoret activations can get there, but Bridge decks usually have a Pithing Needle for her too.
Some more bullet Traverse targets in the board might be interesting, like a Reclamation Sage over a Grudge. I'm playing a Staticaster and it's been great.
Grisly Salvage is also a reason I'm thinking of this as it lets you grab the cards, and doesn't make flipping the top 5 become a risk of binning your hate cards when you also need to go for a Flayer.
Gravehate is more annoying than game ending at least. Troll and Samut's usually become the beat sticks as people assume we fold to grave hate and keep sketchy hands, and then lose to our bad mythic beats.
We could also cut the Nighthawk / God and focus on Samut and Chroma, opening up slots for interaction or Lingering Souls, but then I feel like we're just trying to be a bad 5 color Death's Shadow. Death Touch and Indestructible are also occasionally relevant.
Last thought is I think I want Fulminator's to help against Tron and Valakut since we can Traverse for it, but maybe it's better to just embrace the Blue and use Disdainful Strokes.
Sorry for the ramblings and any potential brain damage I've caused to people. Deck is a blast though.
Going beyond 3 color is always fun. I usually like splashing white for Oketra the True, Worship, Lingering Souls, etc. I feel like blue has lot to offer but I haven't found a deck I like with blue yet. Going 5 color sound hella risky tho, even with Birds of Paradise and Sylvan Caryatid.
Instead of adding additional hexproof creature as an approach against removal spells, I've been brewing this deck with Liliana of the Veil and Collective Brutality in the mainboard.
4x Soulflayer
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Drogskol Reaver
4x Samut, Voice of Dissent
4x Oketra the True
Spell x16
4x Faithless Looting
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Lightning Axe
1x Collective Brutality
3x Lingering Souls
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Godless Shrine
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Thoughtseize
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Ancient Grudge
1x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to play around game 1. That the reason I play 4 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard but if we're able to find a good interaction spell for mainboard maybe we can cut back on some Ancient Grudge in the sideboard. I think Liliana of the Veil is good answer against Bridge because Bridge deck usually don't attack with creature so they can't stop Liliana from growing and hopefully we can care for pithing needle with grudge or Reclamation Sage. Potential mainboard interaction that doesn't require activation cost I can think of is Abrupt Decay. I am bit afraid of playing cards that doesn't synergize with Soulflayer and its combo pieces though.
I try to avoid that by focusing on cards that can synergize with Soulflayer and its combo pieces, mainly Grisly Salvage and Traverse the Ulvenwald. I think Lingering Souls are great. Anything that benefits from going to graveyard or anything castable from graveyard is great with Grisly Salvage and Faithless Looting. We can probably take advantage of Lingering Souls better then Death's Shadow for that reason.
I'll give a try on playing blue too. Thanks for the ideas!
This list looks sweet! Double strike and lifelink has usually been what seals games away, so I can see replacing the Chromanticore with the Reaver. Although it costs 2 more, I can see that being much more manageable than all 5 colors when on the hardcast plan. Drawing cards is always sweet too if it comes to it. I've noticed that flying and lifelink are really the only keywords I benefit from with the Chroma itself, although the rare instances I get a Nighthawk / Rhonas the trample becomes relevant.
I feel like 12 doublestrike is a lot. Is the full 4 Oketra worth it? Indestructible is good, but I'm curious if maybe a 2/2 split with Hazoret is worth it. Both seem easy enough to "activate" if they are hard cast thanks to Souls and Lili/Axe/Brutality.
I tried some Liliana's in the side and enjoyed bringing them in. We don't care about discarding, and the interaction is a huge plus.
Nahiri and Lightning Axe seem sweet. I have a soft spot for Nahiri anyways, and Axe hitting 5 toughness, along with being a discard outlet, seems like it would fit in well.
Hopefully I can give this a few league runs and see if that spins the wheels some more.
Abrupt Decay or maybe Kolaghan's Command were really my only ideas. Both seem alright but with their own cons. Abrupt Decay can be a dud in the match up (Scapeshift) while K. Command doesn't really have anything we want to return other than Soulflayer.
The 4 main deck Stubborn have been huge for me. It's a light splash so it doesn't "hurt", and being able to have some interaction has lead to some sweet plays. I was able to Stubborn an Aether Vial game 1 and that just destroyed the opponent's hand alone.
It also provides a way to answer top decks that discard alone can not. I have had plenty of Relic / Rest in Peace off the top after a Thoughtseize.
With regards to updates on my ramblings, I'm going to try a Sage in the board in place of a Grudge as a tutorable target. Bomat Courier also been a solid "decent." The extra draw / discard has been nice, but the biggest bonus was having faster delirium for Traverse. Im still not sure if I want to include the little robot going forward though.
Edit:
As an update, I made the switch of Chromanticore to Drogskol Reaver, and so far I really like it. Double strike, Flying, Lifelink is key to taking over or stabilizing. Consistent Vigilance will be missed, but Double Strike is so good.
I also am going to move back to the Troll over the Courier. The Traverse + Activation, or multiple Courier Activation tricks are cool when they happen, but so often I'm about to pop the Courier to discard keywords and then draw a Soulflayer. Troll would let me still pitch those guys, while holding onto the Soulflayer. Given that Chroma is gone, this also gives me additional enablers for the Stubborn Denials.
4x Soulflayer
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Chromanticore
4x Samut, Voice of Dissent
2x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
Spell x13
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Faithless Looting
4x Grisly Salvage
1x Liliana of the Veil
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Thoughtseize
3x Collective Brutality
4x Ancient Grudge
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Liliana of the Veil
Here is Soulflayer deck I'm experimenting with Liliana of the Veil that more similar to the delirium version. I wanted to keep the consistency of turn 3~4 Soulflayer while having some interactions. I want to play more Liliana mainboard but that most likely means removing some Lotleth Troll due to similarity in function as self-discard engine, but it seemed wrong because Trolls have better synergy with the deck. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is also huge. I don't want to remove anything else because that would slow the deck down or make Soulflayer weaker in game 1. So it comes down to just 1 Liliana in the mainboard. It should still make a big difference in a match up Liliana shines against such as control deck.
Speaking of which, after a week long delay with USPS, i finally receieved the paper cards for this deck. Granted it is still using Chromanticore over Drogskol Reaver, but that will work.
One thing I'm interested is something to help in this matchups where the opponent brings in a large amount of hate. We can still hard cast everything, which does work, but I was looking for some additional threats to bring in. One thought was Deaths Shadow given the fetch shock heavy mana base, but that doesn't seem super reliable without also going up to 4 Thoughtseize and probably Street Wraith as well.
Similarly, I think my hardest problem is determining when or how much to shave on the Flayers and Traverses when expecting graveyard hate. Lotleth Troll is a way to fight through it, but I'm always hesitant to shave the Flayer in case they dont have or dont see hate. What are your thoughts?
For additional threat we can possibly increase the number of Hazoret the Fervent? I tried Hollow One before, but it didn't get along with Grisly Salvage and I prefer a beater that can contribute to Soulflayer. I feel like Death's Shadow will be like Hollow One but slightly worse because unlike Hollow One it doesn't help activate delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald.
I usually never shave off Soulflayer. As you mentioned it not always guaranteed that opponent will draw their graveyard hate. I usually start from cutting off unnecessary ability fodders and some Traverse the Ulvenwald depending on my opponent's deck.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Chromanticore
4 Samut, Voice of Dissent
4 Soulflayer
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Faithless Looting
2 Collective Brutality
4 Stubborn Denial
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Disdainful Stroke
I have some really short notes, as these games were all pretty fast and lopsided.
Round 1: UW Tron
This is my other deck that a friend was borrowing. Both games were roughly the same with me pitching Keywords to a Lotleth Troll that eventually forced a response. This gave me a window to play a Soulflayer with Hexproof and Indestructible to seal the game away. Notably in game 2 my opponent went for a main phase Gifts to set up land drops but was hit by a naked Stubborn Denial.
2-0
Round 2: Affinity
Game 1 he mulled to 5, keeping a pretty slow hand. I had a Brutality and was able to fully Escalate to get Samut and Chroma into the yard. Unfortunately, I hadn't hit a fetch so I was one card off playing the Flayer and just hard cast a Caryatid. This chumped a Plated Ravager giving me my 4th card, and Hexproof. This led to the concession. Game 2 was a slower start from him as well. Turn 2 I Grisly Salvaged to get some keywords into the yard, picking up a Flayer. Turn 3 I Ancient Grudge'd his Overseer and Vault Skirge, which let me play the keyword soup Flayer and get a concession.
2-0
Round 3: Burn
Game 1 he had no idea what was going on, but had a Guide and Eidolon out with me at 8. He only had one land open so I Traversed, dropping to 6, grabbing the Flayer and then cracking in with 8 Lifelink. He untapped, realized he couldn't come back and scooped. Game 2 I kept a decent hand but ended up never being able to get anything into the yard and just died. Game 3 was similar in that he got me somewhat low but eventually tapped all but 1 land for an Eidolon. I Traversed down to 6 to pick up the Flayer and steal the game again
2-1
Round 4: Affinity (Split)
We decided to play this out just for fun. Game 1 I was only able to get a Chroma underneath a Flayer, and while that was slowly taking over the game, he was able to eventually get a Galv blast and win from there. Game 2 My turn 2 was Caryatid while his was Blood Moon. Fortunately I had played the Caryatid, and had a basic Swamp out, to which I followed up with a Staticaster. This took care of his dudes while a hardcast Samut continually cracked in. Highlight, Izzet Staticaster tap targetting 1 of 3 Ornithopters. Samut attacks, before blocks, tap Caryatid for white to untap Staticaster and kill all 3 Ornithopters. Game 3 I had a great hand, and I could either slow down a turn or 2 to play around Blood Moon, or force him to have it. I decided to force him to have it. He didn't have it... but he did have Rest In Peace. Eventually 2 Vault Scourges pumped by an Overseer got there as I kept drawing dead Traverses.
1-2
Overall, I felt good about the deck. 2 of the sideboard Ancient Grudge's were supposed to be Lightning Axe, but I had totally forgot them at home and the store was somehow all out. I would still make that change as I feel 2 Grudge, 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, and a Staticaster are more than enough to handle what I should run into. Nissa helps in the Rest In Peace games and as just a general grindy good stuff card. Stubborn Denial wasn't at it's best tonight, but I'm wondering if I should keep some in against Affinity. I've been siding all 4 out, but given they go for the early Blood Moon or Rest In Peace, maybe holding one up in those early turns is a good idea.
I like Nissa, Steward of Elements in your sideboard. I can imagine it will provide utility and alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. I've always wanted to play Keranos, God of Storms if I were to play blue since it'll also provide utility and possible alternative wincon against graveyard hate and control deck. Not to mention it has indestructilble. Would you still prefer Nissa over Keranos or would you play both?
I also like Disdainful Stroke in your sideboard. Combined with Stubborn Denial, I can feel safe playing against tron. Izzet Staticaster is interestring. I forgot it had haste!
Do you mind if I post your deck on the introduction page of this thread? I feel like you have the best 4 color deck with blue and I'd help other people use your deck as reference.
That's how I feel about it now too. I think it was just confirmation bias speaking since I was blindsided by the Rest in Peace. I was expecting Blood Moon, but not the other. I think it's better to just stick to the standard plan and consider it as an option, but not sideboard against something that may or may not be there.
Totally forgot about Keranos, and I think they both have merit. I haven't found indestructible totally relevant (locally) but he does serve the same purpose of an alt wincon. The reason I originally went with Nissa was that the Scry helps get rid of dead cards (like Traverse) and the 0 can cheat in stuff like Chroma that we may not have the mana for at the time. It also circumvents counter spells. I've only gotten to actually Nissa once, and at the point I played her she was win-more, so I can't give a definitive answer on that.
Disdainful has been an amazing card, especially given my local meta is infested with Eldrazi. It's also nice against control decks to snipe Gideons or Cryptics.
Not at all!
4x Soulflayer
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Striped Riverwinder
2x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Keranos, God of Storms
4x Chromanticore
4x Samut, Voice of Dissent
Spells x13
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Faithless Looting
4x Grisly Salvage
1x Collective Brutality
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Stomping Ground
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Stubborn Denial
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Collective Brutality
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
My plan with Stubborn Denial is to use it against graveyard hate after game 1. I think utilizing Birds of Paradise to play Soulflayer asap is better plan rather then holding on to counter spell that may not have valid target on game 1. After game 1 I plan on replacing whatever unnecessary ability enabler (for example Chromanticore against Storm) for Stubborn Denial. This way we can keep Birds of Paradise for extra mana we need for Stubborn Denial so we don't lose tempo. Then again, it all comes down to the local meta game. By all means, mainboard Stubborn Denial is a must if local meta is full of tron, Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, and other spell heavy decks.
I want to play Keranos, God of Storms in the maindeck because It'll help trigger delirium and I don't think it a bad idea to have multiple alternative wincons in mainboard.
I like Striped Riverwinder because I can discard it immediately after drawing it or searching it with Traverse the Ulvenwald and casting Soulflayer right after. I think 5 is a good number for Hexproof since having too many is a problem too.
I chose Collective Brutality over Liliana of the Veil in this deck because this deck deals lot of damage to itself. And when it comes to playing counter spells, the difference between 2 and 3 mana is game changing.
By the way are there reason why you don't play Stomping Ground? It may not be necessary in your deck since you don't play Birds of Paradise but I was just curious.
I would say that is a fair assessment. I never felt Birds was a bad card, it just seemed like the easiest cut for the Denials. I also tried out Insolent Neonate but I was pretty unimpressed with the little vampire.
That's a pretty good point and I think I'll make the switch from Rhonas to Keranos. The deathtouch has almost never been relevant, and although Rhonas turns on Stubborn Denial, he's generally always just a dead body. Keranos will at least draw more stuff or kill the opponent. Helping power up Delirum is nice as well.
That is amazing. I'm definitely going to throw one in the deck. There have been many times where I have the Flayer and want to tutor up Hexproof but don't have a discard outlet.
Liliana is definitely great in some match ups, but after playing Brutality, the ability to dump 2 keyword dues and steal an answer before dropping the Flayer has been huge. I definitely prefer the Brutality, at least Main.
I swapped it out for Breeding Pool to help with the blue, and at first didn't really miss it. I never wanted to fetch Stomping because it meant double Black was turn 3 at the earliest, but after playing the deck a few times last night, I really miss it. I had so many hands with a Looting Turn 1 and only a fetch land, with everything else taking Green. It's coming back in.
Giving space to a mire consistent deck
I want to say this is definitely an auto include. Obvious cut targets are Samut and Chromanticore, but they both have a single keyword that I actually like from them a lot, namely Haste and Lifelink. This pretty much covers every other important aspect.
A downside is that this will almost never be hardcast in games where gravehate is a thing, but there are ways around that like Quicksilver Amulet I suppose (or just pitch to Lotleth Troll).
The only two "lifelink haste" creatures we currently have access to are:
I much prefer the Spark Trooper since it includes Trample as well, and both are relatively easy to cast but 6 power is less embarassing than 3/3.
I might be wrong though and we don't need the Haste, but I have won a ton of games off of Lifelink so I think a replacement is mandatory.
Maybe we just go to 2 Chroma 2 Samut and 4 Primal Dawns.
This new creature is pretty similar to Akroma, Angel of Wrath (or Sphinx of the Steel Wind) which is eqaully hard to cast.
Although it is similar to the Sphinx and Akroma, Indestructible is big. Previously our only real options were Amonkhet gods which brought along another keyword, while this brings FOUR including the best combination of Samut and Chromanticore. Haste and Lifelink missing are noticeable though, but I don't think we will ever have the perfect soup card printed.
Zetalpa is for sure worth playing. Biggest question is to replace it with which card. I am planning to replace it with either Birds of Paradise, Hazoret the Fervent or both.
Happy new year everyone!
I'm thinking of trying a 2/2/4 Samut/Chroma/Zetalpa split or a 4/4 split with Spark Trooper and Zetalpa, and then turning my Hazorets into more interaction. Although hardcasting Zetalpa is likely out of the question, moving my Blue splash to White let'lets s me run Souls which has a great synergy with Salvage and Souls.
Denial was really for Storm, but with Traverse I can probably just run a sideboard Eidolon of Rhetoric and bank on the more useful Discard for interaction.
If you're moving out of blue ... does that leave Grisly Salvage as your sole Instants?