You can also see against Splinter Twin how the deck is not "comfortable" in playing the draw-go approach that was advocated because your pressure cards cost three or more, thus if you are holding up mana for reactive measures, you can avoid being comboed out but you are not racing them properly. Also, this leaves them free to go with the beatdown plan.
I've run up against twin maybe 8-10 times in playing and have had much greater success playing the draw-go strategy rather than trying to force the action. I *definitely* agree with Stephen when he says that playing Twin requires close to optimal play at all times. I've never felt like it was an unwinnable matchup, but noticed a couple of times when I made one mistake that cascaded into losing the game.
I've tweaked the mana slightly to enable hitting double blue, and added 1-2 Vendilion Clique. I think it is a valuable addition, especially against twin and it has good synergy with what the rest of the deck wants to do. I've also included 2 Resto Angels. They are hyper useful. Being able to flickerwisp at instant speed is great, or just getting some extra ETB value.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
You can also see against Splinter Twin how the deck is not "comfortable" in playing the draw-go approach that was advocated because your pressure cards cost three or more, thus if you are holding up mana for reactive measures, you can avoid being comboed out but you are not racing them properly. Also, this leaves them free to go with the beatdown plan.
I've run up against twin maybe 8-10 times in playing and have had much greater success playing the draw-go strategy rather than trying to force the action. I *definitely* agree with Stephen when he says that playing Twin requires close to optimal play at all times. I've never felt like it was an unwinnable matchup, but noticed a couple of times when I made one mistake that cascaded into losing the game.
I restate my question, perhaps I wasn't clear.
Leaving up Path to Exile/Spellbomb from turn three on means you are slowing down that crucial turn when you feel safe to drop a beatstick to pressure them- because at a certain point you clearly have to, and not playing Restoration Angel means you have to do it on your own turn.
The problem I saw in some games is that your less-costed creatures line up poorly against their SnapBolt + Electrolyze plan, namely Missionary and Flickerwisp. At least something like Kitchen Finks would be slightly more annoying for them.
If you adopt the draw-go approach you'll reach a point where this dilemma will catch you. The only thing that they can't beat with red removal in the current list is Sun Titan, which is absolutely a luxury at six mana.
You can see that this clearly comes up in the videos I mentioned. Regardless of how he played and what tweaks he made, look at the way the game is being played out. He is locked at 3-4 mana doing anything because of risking being comboed out. This is why i'm honestly skeptical about this "draw-go" approach in a deck that's structurally meant to do the opposite. Sure you can start staying open for 1-2-3 mana at time to ensure your cc1 disruption is active even despites Exarch/Mite tapping you, but at that point you're invalidating your ways of actively winning the game.
Hence why I advocate that the current build is too heavy on drops and/or needs Restoration Angel to break the tempo of matchups like Twin, UWr and Scapeshift. Whereas the latter two have become more fringe lately, the first is on all-time high. Of course it requires "optimal plays", but honestly I don't feel your list can do well on a consistent basis against a competent opponent (I say "your" because I play one with fewer 3-drops, Resto and Finks). There is too much inherent clunkiness and the lack of a fast, difficult-to-kill beater like Tarmogoyf means that most times the momentum of the game is shifted towards their favor.
Twin being in the format makes the other strategies needing to adapt- for example cutting down their curve, unless epecific cases (like Tron, which is a total underdog in the matchup). In my opinion the OP build is skipping this step a bit too much. But if the 3-1s and 4-0s in Dailies are being accumulated against lots of Twin then I won't bother anymore.
Playing draw/go against twin changes their win condition from twin to keranos and burn. I side out a Sun Titan, verdicts, and pilgrim's eyes to lower the curve and play the whole game with mana up to deal with an end of turn exarch. There is no reason to play anything to press the tempo when you can hold answers to twin and stall the game. Twin is a tough matchup, but I have a lot of fun playing it as it does require optimal play and I am pretty 50/50 in the matchup to date.
The deck is 'structurally designed' to stall the game by any means necessary. Most changes that people make to my core list weaken this plan in favor of more tempo plays like restoration angel. There are definitely advantages to being able to press the tempo of a match, but I've found that the deck tends to get overpowered when going in that direction.
Playing control decks in any format requires a deep knowledge of the format and the deck that you are piloting. Modern is a very difficult format to control and I have learned to accept that it is not possible to win every match with any deck in this format. Winning in modern requires a high level of competence as well as a decent amount of luck in matchups and draws. Even the great matchups can go against you sometimes. Yesterday I lost to living end for the first time ever. That being said, if I'm going to play modern, I'm going to play something that I enjoy that is capable of taking down a tournament when the matchups and draws roll in your favor. I feel like this is a fairly difficult list to pilot optimally and I don't expect people to have the same success with it as soon as they pick it up.
It is a fun list that will reward you for getting to know it, but I'd highly recommend that you keep the deck's focus on controlling and stalling games rather than optimizing specific interactions or trying to push the tempo.
I continue to be having difficulties with the BGx matchup.
Is there something I'm just missing with regards to those matchups? I'm not getting Emeria online before they kill me and they get me Hellbent and eat all of my creatures that Emeria could recur, etc etc.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
The situations that recur most when I'm losing are when they simply have enough threat density that the deck preboarded can't deal with it consistently- something like going Ooze, Goyf, Tasigur.
Post-board, I tend to lose because they bring in the Fulminator Mages and kill my lands.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Very interesting deck, TurboG73!
Given the number of artifacts you run... what about Thirst for knowledge in those 3 flexible slots? How often do you find the limited amount of counters maindeck really useful? Do they not dilute the deck a little?
Very interesting deck, TurboG73!
Given the number of artifacts you run... what about Thirst for knowledge in those 3 flexible slots? How often do you find the limited amount of counters maindeck really useful? Do they not dilute the deck a little?
The main deck counters are basically outs for some matchups that are almost unwinnable without them. The goal with those slots is to provide outs against tough matchups without dilluting the deck. That is why I am on mana leak right now as it is flexible enough that it is decent in most all matchups. I like monastery siege over thirst for knowledge. I could definitely see running up to a playset of that card but I haven't found the room for it yet. currently have 1 main and 1 sideboard and have found that I haven't been using the sb copy much so probably just going to stick with the 1 main myself. I haven't been able to play much recently. Haven't been in a daily for a while.
How long does a game usually goes on with this kind of deck? Modern is kinda fast, usually, so i was wondering on the place of Emeria, the Sky Ruin, as a 4 of. Of course it depends on what you face i guess, but i was wondering about the utility of going for esper colors for Necrotic Sliver, Nihil Spellbomb, Sin Collector and Tidehollow Sculler . Has it been concidered?
I'va played a mono white version of this back in the scars of mirrodin block, was great, of course by this i mean the sun titan and card value aspect, since a lot of the tools here weren't accessible, but anyways... How usefull is the sky ruin and has a splash for black ever been concidered instead?
Has anyone tried a version with suppression field? Seems like it would be handy against a lot of our troublesome threats like scavenging ooze, liliana, and twin. This would probably require the deck to switch to mono white.
I decided to go for the full tap out approach- the biggest issue this deck faces, I've found, is hoser creatures like Scavenging Ooze rather than spells specifically, so I decided to mainboard all 4 Supreme Verdicts.
Round 1 was up against Br Devotion; I lost match one due to a stupid play error, putting me at low enough life to die to a Gray Merchant trigger. Game two my opponent got down Leyline of the Void turn one, and then eventually drew into 3 Phyrexian Obliterators 0-1.
Round 2 was up against a new player, who was playing GR Ramp. Her deck wasn't particularly tuned, so overall I just got Sun Titans into play and attacked with them.
Round 3 was up against someone playing Tarmoffinity. I won match 1; match 2 and 3 I didn't draw into enough removal- sometimes you just can't beat the double Cranial Plating draw.
Round 4 was up against UW Control. The Emeria engine gave me inevitability game 1, which I won easily enough. Game 2, we went to time, and I beat him in extra turns by attacking over an Aetherling with a Flickerwisp.
Not exactly good testing, but I had fun with the deck, which is more or less I'm looking for, although I'd appreciate being able to start 4-0ing FNMs with it if I can. Sometimes I can miss some lines of play and interactions which end up killing me. I'll get better.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Haven't played this deck in a while as I've been drafting the new set and developing my den protector/deathmist standard list that I've been playing since release weekend. Had some time this evening and jumped in the 4 PM daily. Went 4-0 beating grixis twin, grixis delver twice and affinity in that order.
I did stick a third verdict back into the main and am only running one main deck mana leak. If the daily that I played isn't published tomorrow then I'll get an updated list on here.
White sun's zenith and sunblast angel both work very well with this shell. I played one of each when I played this deck in standard, but I can't quite justify their inclusion in this list.
This is my first post over here on this forum and I just wanted you to know that I love the deck. I waited until MM2015 was fully spoiled to see if I could catch lower prices due to reprints, but I think I'm ready to take the plunge now. What, if any, effects or answers do you think this deck is missing that are keeping it from rising to tier 1 status? Or do you think it is already at that level, just criminally underplayed?
Hopefully you see this and keep myself and all of the other lurkers updated on your decklist/opinion on the archetype!
I noticed that my deck was very similar to this just I'm running no blue because I prefer the pain free life and consistency playing one color affords me. Also makes me less weak too Blood Moon and Tectonic Edge
If 2 mana life gain is critical just play Marty of the Sands. You can block with it and gain life. The other option which is my preference is Auriok Champion for lifegain. It enables you too soft lock splinter twin with one on the board stopping Deciever Exarch and 2 stopping Pestermite. Just make sure you don't attack with it because they could flash in a blue guy and block. It's protection from red and black is important as well because it helps a ton in the delver matchups and will block a Tasigur all day long.
I also prefer Restoration Angel myself because you can use her as a blocker and as a surprise beater for beating down planeswalkers or messing up combat math. Sure you can't bring her back from Sun Titan, but she can make any of your creatures dodge removal. I would much rather be proactive than reactive so you can win faster. Also with 4 toughness she dodges bolt and abrupt decay making her in a great spot for modern. Especially when your looking to grind.
My last recommendation would be to play Venser, the Sojourner if your playing azorius. He can flicker for value while ticking up to his ridiculous ultimate or let you swing for game.
I would prefer it if you would link your lists in your post using the deck function. Really annoying to have to click on a link to another website then click back to read your post. Also using the card feature is nice as well so we don't have to go look cards up that you mention.
I've run up against twin maybe 8-10 times in playing and have had much greater success playing the draw-go strategy rather than trying to force the action. I *definitely* agree with Stephen when he says that playing Twin requires close to optimal play at all times. I've never felt like it was an unwinnable matchup, but noticed a couple of times when I made one mistake that cascaded into losing the game.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Playing draw/go against twin changes their win condition from twin to keranos and burn. I side out a Sun Titan, verdicts, and pilgrim's eyes to lower the curve and play the whole game with mana up to deal with an end of turn exarch. There is no reason to play anything to press the tempo when you can hold answers to twin and stall the game. Twin is a tough matchup, but I have a lot of fun playing it as it does require optimal play and I am pretty 50/50 in the matchup to date.
The deck is 'structurally designed' to stall the game by any means necessary. Most changes that people make to my core list weaken this plan in favor of more tempo plays like restoration angel. There are definitely advantages to being able to press the tempo of a match, but I've found that the deck tends to get overpowered when going in that direction.
Playing control decks in any format requires a deep knowledge of the format and the deck that you are piloting. Modern is a very difficult format to control and I have learned to accept that it is not possible to win every match with any deck in this format. Winning in modern requires a high level of competence as well as a decent amount of luck in matchups and draws. Even the great matchups can go against you sometimes. Yesterday I lost to living end for the first time ever. That being said, if I'm going to play modern, I'm going to play something that I enjoy that is capable of taking down a tournament when the matchups and draws roll in your favor. I feel like this is a fairly difficult list to pilot optimally and I don't expect people to have the same success with it as soon as they pick it up.
It is a fun list that will reward you for getting to know it, but I'd highly recommend that you keep the deck's focus on controlling and stalling games rather than optimizing specific interactions or trying to push the tempo.
Is there something I'm just missing with regards to those matchups? I'm not getting Emeria online before they kill me and they get me Hellbent and eat all of my creatures that Emeria could recur, etc etc.
Post-board, I tend to lose because they bring in the Fulminator Mages and kill my lands.
Given the number of artifacts you run... what about Thirst for knowledge in those 3 flexible slots? How often do you find the limited amount of counters maindeck really useful? Do they not dilute the deck a little?
The main deck counters are basically outs for some matchups that are almost unwinnable without them. The goal with those slots is to provide outs against tough matchups without dilluting the deck. That is why I am on mana leak right now as it is flexible enough that it is decent in most all matchups. I like monastery siege over thirst for knowledge. I could definitely see running up to a playset of that card but I haven't found the room for it yet. currently have 1 main and 1 sideboard and have found that I haven't been using the sb copy much so probably just going to stick with the 1 main myself. I haven't been able to play much recently. Haven't been in a daily for a while.
I'va played a mono white version of this back in the scars of mirrodin block, was great, of course by this i mean the sun titan and card value aspect, since a lot of the tools here weren't accessible, but anyways... How usefull is the sky ruin and has a splash for black ever been concidered instead?
I think I'll go down to 3 Emeria, mostly because I've found that often I won't be able to get one online because I've drawn into too many of them.
I'll keep experimenting, see if I can improve the Junk matchup to better levels.
I decided to go for the full tap out approach- the biggest issue this deck faces, I've found, is hoser creatures like Scavenging Ooze rather than spells specifically, so I decided to mainboard all 4 Supreme Verdicts.
Round 1 was up against Br Devotion; I lost match one due to a stupid play error, putting me at low enough life to die to a Gray Merchant trigger. Game two my opponent got down Leyline of the Void turn one, and then eventually drew into 3 Phyrexian Obliterators 0-1.
Round 2 was up against a new player, who was playing GR Ramp. Her deck wasn't particularly tuned, so overall I just got Sun Titans into play and attacked with them.
Round 3 was up against someone playing Tarmoffinity. I won match 1; match 2 and 3 I didn't draw into enough removal- sometimes you just can't beat the double Cranial Plating draw.
Round 4 was up against UW Control. The Emeria engine gave me inevitability game 1, which I won easily enough. Game 2, we went to time, and I beat him in extra turns by attacking over an Aetherling with a Flickerwisp.
Not exactly good testing, but I had fun with the deck, which is more or less I'm looking for, although I'd appreciate being able to start 4-0ing FNMs with it if I can. Sometimes I can miss some lines of play and interactions which end up killing me. I'll get better.
MODERN
BRG Jund
WU Control
UBRG Dredge
BG Elves
G Tron
Affinity
Building:
WR Boros Burn
UB Tezzerator
I also play Legacy, and EDH. Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter.
I did stick a third verdict back into the main and am only running one main deck mana leak. If the daily that I played isn't published tomorrow then I'll get an updated list on here.
White sun's zenith and sunblast angel both work very well with this shell. I played one of each when I played this deck in standard, but I can't quite justify their inclusion in this list.
This is my first post over here on this forum and I just wanted you to know that I love the deck. I waited until MM2015 was fully spoiled to see if I could catch lower prices due to reprints, but I think I'm ready to take the plunge now. What, if any, effects or answers do you think this deck is missing that are keeping it from rising to tier 1 status? Or do you think it is already at that level, just criminally underplayed?
Hopefully you see this and keep myself and all of the other lurkers updated on your decklist/opinion on the archetype!
Why no meddling mage?
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
I'm thinking about cutting the swords for Demonmail Hauberk so I can go infinite with Kitchen Finks and Anafenza. Also thinking about putting Heliod, God of the Sun in because Devotion should be easy.
Here is my list
4x Auriok Champion
4x Blade Splicer
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Knight of the White Orchid
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3x Restoration Angel
4x Squadron Hawk
2x Sun Titan
3x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2x Weathered Wayfarer
2x Emeria, The Sky Ruin
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Mistveil Plains
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
8x Plains
Artifact (2)
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of War and Peace
Planeswalker (2)
2x Gideon Jura
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Path to Exile
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Celestial Purge
2x Disenchant
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Ghostly Prison
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mirran Crusader
In regards to splashing blue I would play the Flagstones of Trokair and Ghost Quarter Package to fetch Hallowed Fountains. When you run Flagstones and Ghost Quarter over Tectonic Edge you get to play the same amount of land hate, but still keep your Plains count high because in the matchups where you want ld you pop it on there lands and the matchups you don't you pop it on Flagstones of Trokair to deck thin and get Plains for Emeria, the Sky Ruin. On the note of Emeria, I wouldn't play more than 2. Also Knight of the White Orchid would be able to fetch Hallowed Fountain as well while being a good body that trumps combat with first strike. I also prefer Kitchen Finks over Lone Missionary.
If 2 mana life gain is critical just play Marty of the Sands. You can block with it and gain life. The other option which is my preference is Auriok Champion for lifegain. It enables you too soft lock splinter twin with one on the board stopping Deciever Exarch and 2 stopping Pestermite. Just make sure you don't attack with it because they could flash in a blue guy and block. It's protection from red and black is important as well because it helps a ton in the delver matchups and will block a Tasigur all day long.
I also prefer Restoration Angel myself because you can use her as a blocker and as a surprise beater for beating down planeswalkers or messing up combat math. Sure you can't bring her back from Sun Titan, but she can make any of your creatures dodge removal. I would much rather be proactive than reactive so you can win faster. Also with 4 toughness she dodges bolt and abrupt decay making her in a great spot for modern. Especially when your looking to grind.
My last recommendation would be to play Venser, the Sojourner if your playing azorius. He can flicker for value while ticking up to his ridiculous ultimate or let you swing for game.
I would prefer it if you would link your lists in your post using the deck function. Really annoying to have to click on a link to another website then click back to read your post. Also using the card feature is nice as well so we don't have to go look cards up that you mention.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
Has anyone tried running lyev skyknight?
Deck List
2 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Wall of Omens
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Restoration Angel
2 Sun Titan
4 Path to Exile
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dismember
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Banishing Light
2 Wrath of God
2 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Mistveil Plain
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
2 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
3 Auriok Champion
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Wrath of God
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Link
Couple of 3-1's on mtgo!
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy