Good, but there are plenty of good cards. The question is whether it shores up a bad match-up (Affinity, Burn, Infect), and I don't think it really does.
I've been using drinkard version lately. But I still die to burn.....not drawing leyline in opening hand means a loss. Drawing it after mulling means you die as your creatures are burned off......
Yeah, you have to mull to Death's Shadow or Leyline. It's a rough matchup.
for the more budget friendly, what do people think about rest for the weary? it isnt quite as good as the shoal and the apes but it is only 1 card vs 2 and can (lots of the time) gain 8 life rather than 6..
thought?
most of the lists that i have seen are running the full set of bolts but the Fabrizio Anteri list ran thoughtseize instead. what are the thoughts on one vs the other? i'm more on the thoughtseize board vs bolt but havent tried either yet; just finished building the deck yesterday.
I've had opponents stabilize at 1-3 a statistically significant number of times.
I've also topdecked Thoughtseize when at 1-2 life another significant number of times.
Thoughtseize is fine, but still, it's a moot point. If your deck is good (which Top 16 of GP Copenhagen and Top 4 of MOCS suggest), great, play it. There may be variants. Discussions of new tech should really be about two things only:
Burn.
Affinity.
These are the worst two matchups. Thoughtseize is worse in them than Lightning Bolt. Thoughtseize is also probably worse in closer matchups like Infect.
most of the lists that i have seen are running the full set of bolts but the Fabrizio Anteri list ran thoughtseize instead. what are the thoughts on one vs the other? i'm more on the thoughtseize board vs bolt but havent tried either yet; just finished building the deck yesterday.
Fabrizio himself said that he had TS in the board and kept siding them in every g2-3 so they made the jump to the mainboard.
I can see it being as more of a catch all while still paying life, but I do agree sometimes you're a bolt short of winning.
I would say it's a meta call, at the same time not having bolt lets you focus on your game plan of huge unopposed creatures trampling over and not worry if you should bolt the creature or the player.
Besides, there are definitely times where you're looking for extra life loss, Death's shadow is such a game-changer against pretty much every non-path deck that I think it's worth keeping TS in.
Whatever you do, however, don't ever bolt yourself to grow a Shadow
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"Dying with good cards in your hand is the surest sign that you did something wrong, somewhere." -Caleb Durward
Has anyone suggested Phyrexian unlife vs Affinity and Burn? It essentially adds 10 life to you and is only really blanked by Inkmoth in affinity. Kataki, war's mage is still pretty good against affinity and it's critter you can swing and pump with.
i always run at least 2 regardless of the version i played and many times i used them as an offensive card but its an invaluable defensive card when u have only 1 creature in play and need it to finish off the game the next turn.
isnt that why the deck plays some number of vines? sometimes giving protection in response to a removal spell can blank your pump spell that is either on the stack or that you want to cast. i can understand either way thought!
This is wildly inaccurate. The deck has a good Grixis matchup even though they are infinite spot-removal and counter. Even the Abzan matchup, with Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, Path, Liliana, was good, back when people played it.
I have only just picked this deck up, still short a few pieces from completing it. (Mostly a few fetches along with the Mishra's Baubles) Curious about how necessary the baubles are. I am currently running a pair of Gut shot s and a pair of Vines of Vastwood in their place. It has been treating me rather well, but I am honestly not quite sure what I am missing out on at this point.
How about Sheltering Word for both hexproof and life gain for Burn and Affinity?
I know it's subpar but it's basically taking 2 cards into one.
The obvious things we lose are the cheap utility of Vines and Blessing and the pump from Vines and the unblockability of Blessing. But most of the time I feel like the main reason to even play Vines and Blessing is for pseudo-hexproof.
I personally am playing Phyrexian Unlife in my side anyway, but this is for people who don't.
I am currently running the paper version of this. Ideally, I'd run a playset of Blackcleave Cliffs but that card spiked so hard recently its not worth it. I preferred the list I posted earlier (the one with Rancor) for better sustained damage but this list is more exciting and YOLO.
I played this exact 75 last night at a local 3 round tourney and went
3-0
(with a round 1 bye). Was pretty happy with the list as I faced non-traditional decks. After the rounds started, another guy showed up so we played a "round" but I still got the win since he was too late.
He was playing R/W Moon Taxes with Blood Moon & Magus of the Moon along with Thalia, Splicer & Mindcensor. I ended up losing but we were playing pretty casually, not sideboarding, even though my SB doesn't have a whole lot against this deck.. Played the full and won the second due to him not getting red. Kept pretty risky hands, that I normally wouldn't if it was a "real" round. Tough deck to face since Moon wrecks before a Death's Shadow can come down.
Round 2 was vs a W/B tokens list and a less experienced player. I was just able to race him and Thoughtseize the business cards. Didn't sideboard anything as there isn't much to use against them. Won in 2 because of so much pressure and some questionable blocks (not blocking and a pump spell out of nowhere.)
Round 3 faced a mono green (devotion) list. Was a very close match and came down to: if I didn't win on my turn, he would win on the crack-back in game 3. Won game 1 with quick beats, not showing the Shadow or the pump tech, just beating down with the zoo, monkeys, cats & humans, oh my! Sided in Dismember game 2 to make sure I could answer his big stompy dudes. Turned out, that was a good thing because I killed his Leatherback Baloth before it could get out of hand. Too bad I kept a VERY greedy hand of no lands with 3 Street Wraith to see if I could find the land. It worked as the first card I drew was a fetch but that was the only land that game. Lesson learned: don't be greedy in a suicide style deck!
Game 3 was pretty sweet and I was able to utilize the Dismember again as he tried to double Rancor his Dryad Militant. Backed up the game so only 1 was on the stack, although he was able to save it with a Vines, it was still a good play, putting my life total down so Shadow could come out and play. Was down to 5 or 6 life and he was egging me on play some pyrexian spells, dropping my life so far that he was sure to win, but it didn't work out so well for him. I had the Become Immense and Temur Battle Rage for the win! Ended 3-0 (with the round 1 bye, technically)
Again, very happy with the deck as this was my first time playing, other than goldfishing! I'm not sure what I would change because the decks that I faced were pretty tier 2.5 or lower and the SB is more for the really bad match-ups like Burn and Affinity which I think it's pretty solid for (coming from no actual testing).
Hi guys, I'm new here. What do you think about goblin guide vs lightning bolt? I don't know what's the good number of creatures : 15 or 19 with goblin guide.
Thx for help, and sorry for my bad english ^^
For you to swap bolt out for goblin guide, I would be swapping out thoughtseize and I don't see that being a good swap, personally. What is guide going to do for you that the other creatures aren't already doing? Yes, he has haste but I see the potential "card draw" as a downside for a deck that can't afford to lose the advantage. I think that either bolt or thoughtseize are better options than guide.
Beat a budgetish Naya Midrange 2-0, lost to affinity 1-2, beat 8-rack 2-0 and RUG scapeshift 2-0.
I like the deck a lot but am feeling tension between the amount of creatures and the amount of pump. I like having a lot of pump to just win fast in G1, but sometimes I can't find a creature. Dryad Arbor + 8 green fetches helps, but it's probably not ideal.
I feel like potential cuts are Dryad Arbor, Vines and even TBR for some more creatures (probably Kird Apes).
Vines can be awkward since we don't always have GG, but what I like about it specifically is that it can be good tech against Twin (when they tap out for twin on their exarch, you Vines the exarch and Twin fizzles) and Affinity (they sac ravager, you vines the target, no counters).
I have also heard of some tech in the wild in the form of Ghor-Clan Rampager, which occupies a space somewhere between Become Immense and TBR.
Also, Lightning Helix is my burn solution. The 3 life you gain is basically a counterspell for them, and it helps you win the race since they have the inevitability.
Has anyone tested any of these ideas?
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Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Good, but there are plenty of good cards. The question is whether it shores up a bad match-up (Affinity, Burn, Infect), and I don't think it really does.
Yeah, you have to mull to Death's Shadow or Leyline. It's a rough matchup.
thought?
I've also topdecked Thoughtseize when at 1-2 life another significant number of times.
Thoughtseize is fine, but still, it's a moot point. If your deck is good (which Top 16 of GP Copenhagen and Top 4 of MOCS suggest), great, play it. There may be variants. Discussions of new tech should really be about two things only:
Burn.
Affinity.
These are the worst two matchups. Thoughtseize is worse in them than Lightning Bolt. Thoughtseize is also probably worse in closer matchups like Infect.
Fabrizio himself said that he had TS in the board and kept siding them in every g2-3 so they made the jump to the mainboard.
I can see it being as more of a catch all while still paying life, but I do agree sometimes you're a bolt short of winning.
I would say it's a meta call, at the same time not having bolt lets you focus on your game plan of huge unopposed creatures trampling over and not worry if you should bolt the creature or the player.
Besides, there are definitely times where you're looking for extra life loss, Death's shadow is such a game-changer against pretty much every non-path deck that I think it's worth keeping TS in.
Whatever you do, however, don't ever bolt yourself to grow a Shadow
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Currently all these lists lose to spot removal.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
*shrugs*
i always run at least 2 regardless of the version i played and many times i used them as an offensive card but its an invaluable defensive card when u have only 1 creature in play and need it to finish off the game the next turn.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
This is wildly inaccurate. The deck has a good Grixis matchup even though they are infinite spot-removal and counter. Even the Abzan matchup, with Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, Path, Liliana, was good, back when people played it.
I know it's subpar but it's basically taking 2 cards into one.
The obvious things we lose are the cheap utility of Vines and Blessing and the pump from Vines and the unblockability of Blessing. But most of the time I feel like the main reason to even play Vines and Blessing is for pseudo-hexproof.
I personally am playing Phyrexian Unlife in my side anyway, but this is for people who don't.
Edit: I also like Timely Reinforcements.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
4x Monastery Swiftspear
3x Blistercoil Weird
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Kiln Fiend
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Death's Shadow
2x Apostle's Blessing
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Gut Shot
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Manamorphose
3x Temur Battle Rage
4x Titan's Strength
4x Mutagenic Growth
1x Dragonskull Summit
6x Mountain
1x Sulfurous Springs
4x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
I am currently running the paper version of this. Ideally, I'd run a playset of Blackcleave Cliffs but that card spiked so hard recently its not worth it. I preferred the list I posted earlier (the one with Rancor) for better sustained damage but this list is more exciting and YOLO.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I played this exact 75 last night at a local 3 round tourney and went
He was playing R/W Moon Taxes with Blood Moon & Magus of the Moon along with Thalia, Splicer & Mindcensor. I ended up losing but we were playing pretty casually, not sideboarding, even though my SB doesn't have a whole lot against this deck.. Played the full and won the second due to him not getting red. Kept pretty risky hands, that I normally wouldn't if it was a "real" round. Tough deck to face since Moon wrecks before a Death's Shadow can come down.
Round 2 was vs a W/B tokens list and a less experienced player. I was just able to race him and Thoughtseize the business cards. Didn't sideboard anything as there isn't much to use against them. Won in 2 because of so much pressure and some questionable blocks (not blocking and a pump spell out of nowhere.)
Round 3 faced a mono green (devotion) list. Was a very close match and came down to: if I didn't win on my turn, he would win on the crack-back in game 3. Won game 1 with quick beats, not showing the Shadow or the pump tech, just beating down with the zoo, monkeys, cats & humans, oh my! Sided in Dismember game 2 to make sure I could answer his big stompy dudes. Turned out, that was a good thing because I killed his Leatherback Baloth before it could get out of hand. Too bad I kept a VERY greedy hand of no lands with 3 Street Wraith to see if I could find the land. It worked as the first card I drew was a fetch but that was the only land that game. Lesson learned: don't be greedy in a suicide style deck!
Game 3 was pretty sweet and I was able to utilize the Dismember again as he tried to double Rancor his Dryad Militant. Backed up the game so only 1 was on the stack, although he was able to save it with a Vines, it was still a good play, putting my life total down so Shadow could come out and play. Was down to 5 or 6 life and he was egging me on play some pyrexian spells, dropping my life so far that he was sure to win, but it didn't work out so well for him. I had the Become Immense and Temur Battle Rage for the win! Ended 3-0 (with the round 1 bye, technically)
Again, very happy with the deck as this was my first time playing, other than goldfishing! I'm not sure what I would change because the decks that I faced were pretty tier 2.5 or lower and the SB is more for the really bad match-ups like Burn and Affinity which I think it's pretty solid for (coming from no actual testing).
For you to swap bolt out for goblin guide, I would be swapping out thoughtseize and I don't see that being a good swap, personally. What is guide going to do for you that the other creatures aren't already doing? Yes, he has haste but I see the potential "card draw" as a downside for a deck that can't afford to lose the advantage. I think that either bolt or thoughtseize are better options than guide.
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Hooting Mandrills
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Become Immense
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
4 Lightning Helix
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Forked Bolt
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Orzhov Charm
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear // Tear
Beat a budgetish Naya Midrange 2-0, lost to affinity 1-2, beat 8-rack 2-0 and RUG scapeshift 2-0.
I like the deck a lot but am feeling tension between the amount of creatures and the amount of pump. I like having a lot of pump to just win fast in G1, but sometimes I can't find a creature. Dryad Arbor + 8 green fetches helps, but it's probably not ideal.
I feel like potential cuts are Dryad Arbor, Vines and even TBR for some more creatures (probably Kird Apes).
Vines can be awkward since we don't always have GG, but what I like about it specifically is that it can be good tech against Twin (when they tap out for twin on their exarch, you Vines the exarch and Twin fizzles) and Affinity (they sac ravager, you vines the target, no counters).
I have also heard of some tech in the wild in the form of Ghor-Clan Rampager, which occupies a space somewhere between Become Immense and TBR.
Also, Lightning Helix is my burn solution. The 3 life you gain is basically a counterspell for them, and it helps you win the race since they have the inevitability.
Has anyone tested any of these ideas?