I would also use Path to Exile over Vapor Snag as you are probably not quick enough to kill them before the card disadvantage becomes relevant and can't counter the creatures if they recast them.
Saheeli Rai is a decent card but I would probably sideboard her for something which is more relevant to the maindeck (removal/counters).
Yes, something like this (though a couple of Spell Snare seem good as well).
Also, cutting some copies of Mutagenic Growth might be reasonable as well as they don't help against the new Fatal Push anyway and you are a "pump-combo" deck that needs a critical mass of free pump spells like "Infect" or "UR Prowess".
Did you guys get a chance to watch Caleb's stream? It's a really cool new style jeskai delver list that may be the way to go in the new meta. I'm surprised that no one was excited that caleb mentioned our forum ideas on stream on Channel Fireball. I was super excited!
Here is the question(s) of the week- Do you think Cryptic Command is a good top deck choice in delver in the new meta? Are you adding more counter magic to your 75 with the resurgence of combo decks like Griselhoardbrand, AD Nauseum, etc?
Without knowing the new meta yet (we will need a lot more info) I can't say for sure, but the little info we do have has showed that midrange/value based decks and combo decks have seen an increase. If that holds, Cryptic Command will be a great choice. It really depends on the remainder of the deck, but I think the aggressive decks would also have no problem running it as a one of. I am personally sticking with Bedlam Reveler at the top end, but Cryptic Command could make a resurgence. What do you all think?
As for the counter magic question, I have been thinking about adding more counter magic for awhile now and if the meta continues to have more combo decks I will likely add another counter magic spell in place of Forked Bolt or a Sleight of Hand. As for which one I'm not sure yet. The candidates are Izzet Charm, Logic Knot, Cryptic Command, Dispel, Negate, and/or another Remand. I'm not a huge fan of Mana Leak. What do you all think?
i did watch it and the games he won and lost is quite atypical for the jeskai delver decks.
just slightly off the tangent, i have been testing esper delver (because of fatal push) and that deck could run 2-3 cryptic commands because its a very durdle-ly deck. granted, my version has the snapcaster/delver/tasigur assault package and lingering souls as back up. i even run 1 copy of sphinx revelation and get to cast it for 2/3 because the deck was THAT durdle-ly. i found that after about 10+ games, cryptic command has some play in that deck. and no, i don't like the EVEN more durdle-ly planeswalker version of the esper control deck... it spends so much time just turtle-ing until turn 8 - 10. esper also tends to prefer to end games with Celestial Colonnade because their threat level is so low... but man-lands now get hit by fatal push so you need to play around that when facing up any deck that has black.
i feel that jeskai delver could run cryptic command at the sacrifice of remands... but i can never get used to it because i always play the tempo game with the deck and early tempo play with remands and vapor snags won me countless games. remand always has play because its such an elegant card. jeskai delver also doesn't have the option of running a big fatty like tasigur or angler, which is another problem. i guess bedlam reveler is a good 1-2 off to play the similar game as an example:
grixis and sultai are stronger because snapcaster mage has 3 different options to target for removal. esper and jeskai only have 2. all versions can run cryptic commands which adds to the snapcaster targets but at 6 mana late game play.
i think the jeskai delver variant that runs a 19 land / 1 - 3 cryptic command variant is a viable build but only if you sacrifice deck building space for a less tempo-y aggro line up. and that build requires you load up more on cantrips to max out on land drops. i think think twice is a must have here instead of sleigh of hand.
one of my biggest bane with regards to playing control decks of today is i can no longer pack sweepers like wrath of god / supreme verdict in the main as they are actually a type of card disadvantage if you are already loading up on 1 for 1s. 10-15 years ago, 4 mana sweepers are mandatory in control decks... but in today's modern magic... its so different... and to an extent, skill intensive.
Did you guys get a chance to watch Caleb's stream? It's a really cool new style jeskai delver list that may be the way to go in the new meta. I'm surprised that no one was excited that caleb mentioned our forum ideas on stream on Channel Fireball. I was super excited!
Hi CurdBros. I have to say that I didn't like the games. First match he only wins because the opponent can't use Remand right. Second match he loses because Dredge has very good draws, but also because he has too many high cost cards in hand and not enough mana. This shows why it's not a good idea to run CMC4 cards like Cryptic in a 19 land deck. Third match is completely pointless, because the opponent doesn't do anything even with 14 mana available in a Tron deck and 4 cards in hand. Burn match is interesting though...
The MTGO algorithm for drawing lands looks so weird to me. He ends up with 5-6 lands in play almost every single game which never happens in real life--at least not to me. Otherwise I would be running Thundermaw Hellkite in my Delver deck...
I wish he used a more interesting Jeskai Delver list with Reveler and Saheeli for example or at least with some cards that can help Geist go through blockers, like Emerge Unscathed or Slip Through Space (1 Mutagenic Growth is not enough imho if you run 3 Geists).
I have to disagree here. You should keep at least one Jeskai Charm because that card actually is awesome even without Mentor. With Mentor that card will just win you a lot of games! I use the mode with +1/+1 & Lifelink most of the time and it helped me winning a lot of races. Also, 4 dmg to the face is awesome when your opponent has Spell Snare and he can't use it
Jeskai Charm is an okay choice in my decklist, but if you were to replace it, CurdBros. what would you run in its place? It's a meta call for me, but I am just wondering if there is a better choice.
@needmoredps, I feel like you're comparing apples to oranges on the removal lists, especially regarding snappy. Bolt Snap bolt, push Snap push, hell, even path Snap path are leagues easier to pull off than decay Snap decay. Particularly in a single turn (it comes up from time to time.). Also, Jeskai has, and tends to run, helix at its disposal, as well as boros charm when it wants to build more burn-like. Not weighing in at which color scheme is "better", just feel you're selling Jeskai short.
First off, I really like the strategy this deck utilizes. Kill them quickly and if they interact either land a mentor and take over or burn them out.
I like that you included Peek in your list a lot because it is very important to have plenty of cantrips in a mentor build and it's super helpful to know if the coast is clear to play mentor. While I typcially only play one Boros Charm I do think they gain additional value in a mentor/young p build to protect your army so running two here is great. Another card that gains a ton of value in a mentor build is Jeskai Charm. As Twanicus mentioned to another poster, I too tend to sell this card short as well because I haven't played it much. It's great in some of our worse matchups and if I played Mentor maindeck I would likely play 1 or two of these.
I know I have said this a lot above, but mentor changes the way decks are built. He is so strong he can take over games, but he is a bit fragile. I think Mutagenic Growth is a great card in a Mentor build especially one running swiftspear as well. With that said, I don't think you want a full playset. I would probably suggest running 2 copies. I feel like you want a few more versatile spells in the deck and possibly more cantrips. Another card I have yet to test is Noxious Revival so I can't give to much advice as to how strong this card is in the deck.
If I were to make any changes I would likely cut two mutagenic growth and 1 lightning helix (as you have 2 boros charm and jeskai charm so your a bit heavy on burn) and add at least two Path to Exile and two cantrips such as Sleight of Hand. I know path is a nonbo sometimes with the deck's strategy, but sometimes it's just the only answer we have to some threats. If you don't like mainboard paths I would suggest adding a few sideboard and possibly bring the swerve in to the mainboard.
As for the sideboard, what are the Rending Volley in the deck for? If your meta is heavy in merfolk and or saheeli rai combo I totally understand, I was just interested to find out. I have noticed that the saheeli rai combo has been skyrocketing in some recent events so we may need to add these back into our boards anyways.
Let me know what you think about my suggestions and how the deck performs. Thanks again for posting it!
Jeskai Charm is an okay choice in my decklist, but if you were to replace it, CurdBros. what would you run in its place? It's a meta call for me, but I am just wondering if there is a better choice.
To be honest, your list looks really good right now. I would likely try to fit two copies of Sleight of Hand or Peek into the deck to give Grim Lavamancer a bit more food and to smooth our draws in general. Because your running 20 lands the deck manipulation is not as big of a problem for you as it is for those of us running 18ish lands. I have also really liked Forked Bolt lately.
@needmoredps, I feel like you're comparing apples to oranges on the removal lists, especially regarding snappy. Bolt Snap bolt, push Snap push, hell, even path Snap path are leagues easier to pull off than decay Snap decay. Particularly in a single turn (it comes up from time to time.). Also, Jeskai has, and tends to run, helix at its disposal, as well as boros charm when it wants to build more burn-like. Not weighing in at which color scheme is "better", just feel you're selling Jeskai short.
You are not wrong.
Jeskai players are spoilt for choice when it comes to instants! They can lean harder on burn strategies (i even ran Rift Bolt once) with a slight tempo-ish set up with some Cryptic Command as a top of the curve play. Jeskai also boasts the best sideboard set up, second to Esper, mainly because of White.
I did watch the games and I was surprised on how often cryptic could be cast on curve. As I do not have actual experience with cryptic I can't say if it really fits into the curve so nicely but I am curious so I am going to try 2 copies just like Caleb. Cryptic can act as a huge tempo swing and is just so versatile.
Caleb said that boros charm was just doing the one thing which is being aggressive, but it can also act very well on defense, giving everything indestructible can be very surprising when it comes to blocking.
I do have a problem as of now. 4 geists are to many in my opinion, but reveler didn't work out very well in conjunction with lavamancer and snapcasters. Furthermore with 8 total counterspells + snapcasters reveler gets even worse so I wanted to include a walker again, my options being saheeli and chandra, ToD.
I have my problems with both walkers, saheeli smooths out the draws which is very good with counterspells and preventing to flood. Her -2 and ultimate though are not that good, her -2 only gets snap and delver, the other cards aren't worth it or legendary and her -7 is completely useless.
Chandra would deal more dmg over a short period of time but with all the counterspells and legendaries I run her exile could be an issue, the second plus ability doesnt do that much anymore because I don't really run much mono r Spells, the minus abilities are others very useful, the ultimate basically winning you the game.
What are your thoughts on that matter?
His deck is definitely a bit more on the midrange side and can handle cryptic command. I'm not convinced that is the best way to build a jeskai delver deck, but Caleb is pretty awesome and is a great player so I will definitely test it out. I have found that the major benefit to playing the jeskai shard is the burn damage and ability to be aggressive. I have also found that I typically need all three colors in play. Therefore, cryptic feels like a tough addition to me. However, in the decks that are more tempo oriented and then side into a more conrol oriented deck, cryptic is a great bridge card at the top end to be able to play both a tempo game and control game. Basically, if someone's deck can play cryptic command it's probably correct to be playing it.
As for your planeswalker dilemma I think Chandra sounds better. To be honest, a vast majority of the time I use Saheeli's -2 ability it's on a Bedlam Reveler and/or Snapcaster Mage. I probably would only recommend her if your playing reveler or Torrential Gearhulk. I have thought of adding a Torrential Gearhulk to my sideboard and possibly another artifact (maybe a sword) to utilize her ultimate. I have gotten to her ultimate ability several times and would have loved to ulimate her. It may just be win more, but it's always fun to tinker. For your deck, Chandra sounds a lot better.
On another note, I see a lot of 4x helix in a lot of lists and I was trying to find another card for my burn matchup so I think you guys are probably right and I need another helix. I cut one sleight of hand and added a third helix to my maindeck.
First off, I really like the strategy this deck utilizes. Kill them quickly and if they interact either land a mentor and take over or burn them out.
I like that you included Peek in your list a lot because it is very important to have plenty of cantrips in a mentor build and it's super helpful to know if the coast is clear to play mentor. While I typcially only play one Boros Charm I do think they gain additional value in a mentor/young p build to protect your army so running two here is great. Another card that gains a ton of value in a mentor build is Jeskai Charm. As Twanicus mentioned to another poster, I too tend to sell this card short as well because I haven't played it much. It's great in some of our worse matchups and if I played Mentor maindeck I would likely play 1 or two of these.
I know I have said this a lot above, but mentor changes the way decks are built. He is so strong he can take over games, but he is a bit fragile. I think Mutagenic Growth is a great card in a Mentor build especially one running swiftspear as well. With that said, I don't think you want a full playset. I would probably suggest running 2 copies. I feel like you want a few more versatile spells in the deck and possibly more cantrips. Another card I have yet to test is Noxious Revival so I can't give to much advice as to how strong this card is in the deck.
If I were to make any changes I would likely cut two mutagenic growth and 1 lightning helix (as you have 2 boros charm and jeskai charm so your a bit heavy on burn) and add at least two Path to Exile and two cantrips such as Sleight of Hand. I know path is a nonbo sometimes with the deck's strategy, but sometimes it's just the only answer we have to some threats. If you don't like mainboard paths I would suggest adding a few sideboard and possibly bring the swerve in to the mainboard.
As for the sideboard, what are the Rending Volley in the deck for? If your meta is heavy in merfolk and or saheeli rai combo I totally understand, I was just interested to find out. I have noticed that the saheeli rai combo has been skyrocketing in some recent events so we may need to add these back into our boards anyways.
Let me know what you think about my suggestions and how the deck performs. Thanks again for posting it!
Hello,
Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure of what to replace the Gitaxian Probes with. I figured one additional Mutagenic Growth and Peek made sense. Not sure on Noxious Revival. It just seemed it could be useful in various ways (get back something useful or mess up an opponents draw). I added it to test. I could see myself cutting 1/2 Growth + Revival for 2 more Peek and Path?
As far as cutting Lightning Helix. There is a good amount of aggro and/or burn. I feel that in those matchups Helix would shine.
Rending Volley: We have 1 resident merfolk player, and Kira is annoying. I figured this would warrant the Rending volleys. Also, there is no graveyard based decks, so therefore no GY hate, making room for Spellskite (vs boggles). Overall I tuned my SB to my lgs.
I appreciate the feedback, and will definitely consider different options as I play more.
While it feels strange to say this, I think looking for a direct replacement for Gitaxian Probe is not actually what the deck wants to do post-ban. Instead, you want to look at the specific game plan of your version and add cards that support that plan. It might be counterspells, it might be burn spells, it might be cantrips, it might be carddraw, hell it could even be creatures for some versions but in any case, there's no single answer of 'replace it with this card and you're done'.
As to the conversation about land, personally in most matches I play I am quickly sitting on 4-5 land and I tend to end games with 7-8 land. I play 18 land in my list. I've been playing the deck regularly for months now and can count the times I've gotten mana screwed on two hands. I am aware this may be observational bias or statistical anomalies at work but over such a long period of time that seems unlikely.
About Lightning Helix I don't think cutting it is a good idea. The fact that it gains life, deals damage and can hit either creatures or the face makes it a very versatile card. Even against more control-oriented deck it feels like the card helps me stave off their finisher long enough for me to kill them.
In the meta I expect to face at tournaments I go to, I expect to see a good deal more Ad Nauseam, which is a terrible matchup for my version at the very least, so I'm going to try making room in my sideboard for two copies of Counterflux.
Similarly, it feels like I need more 'hard' counters so I'm going to drop my 3rd Remand and something else for Logic Knot. I feel like I fill up the graveyard quickly enough to make use of at least two copies and I don't think the deck can afford another narrow counter i.e. Negate or Dispel.
While it feels strange to say this, I think looking for a direct replacement for Gitaxian Probe is not actually what the deck wants to do post-ban. Instead, you want to look at the specific game plan of your version and add cards that support that plan. It might be counterspells, it might be burn spells, it might be cantrips, it might be carddraw, hell it could even be creatures for some versions but in any case, there's no single answer of 'replace it with this card and you're done'.
As to the conversation about land, personally in most matches I play I am quickly sitting on 4-5 land and I tend to end games with 7-8 land. I play 18 land in my list. I've been playing the deck regularly for months now and can count the times I've gotten mana screwed on two hands. I am aware this may be observational bias or statistical anomalies at work but over such a long period of time that seems unlikely.
About Lightning Helix I don't think cutting it is a good idea. The fact that it gains life, deals damage and can hit either creatures or the face makes it a very versatile card. Even against more control-oriented deck it feels like the card helps me stave off their finisher long enough for me to kill them.
In the meta I expect to face at tournaments I go to, I expect to see a good deal more Ad Nauseam, which is a terrible matchup for my version at the very least, so I'm going to try making room in my sideboard for two copies of Counterflux.
Similarly, it feels like I need more 'hard' counters so I'm going to drop my 3rd Remand and something else for Logic Knot. I feel like I fill up the graveyard quickly enough to make use of at least two copies and I don't think the deck can afford another narrow counter i.e. Negate or Dispel.
I generally agree on your assessments after some tinkering around post Probe ban.
I am currently tinkering with a burn heavy build with 2 logic knots and 2 deprives maindeck. playsets of lightning helix, lightning bolt and rift bolt for the aggressive line up.
i haven't decided on the vapor snag and remand numbers yet. will let you guys know later when i can more games in.
While it feels strange to say this, I think looking for a direct replacement for Gitaxian Probe is not actually what the deck wants to do post-ban. Instead, you want to look at the specific game plan of your version and add cards that support that plan. It might be counterspells, it might be burn spells, it might be cantrips, it might be carddraw, hell it could even be creatures for some versions but in any case, there's no single answer of 'replace it with this card and you're done'.
As to the conversation about land, personally in most matches I play I am quickly sitting on 4-5 land and I tend to end games with 7-8 land. I play 18 land in my list. I've been playing the deck regularly for months now and can count the times I've gotten mana screwed on two hands. I am aware this may be observational bias or statistical anomalies at work but over such a long period of time that seems unlikely.
About Lightning Helix I don't think cutting it is a good idea. The fact that it gains life, deals damage and can hit either creatures or the face makes it a very versatile card. Even against more control-oriented deck it feels like the card helps me stave off their finisher long enough for me to kill them.
In the meta I expect to face at tournaments I go to, I expect to see a good deal more Ad Nauseam, which is a terrible matchup for my version at the very least, so I'm going to try making room in my sideboard for two copies of Counterflux.
Similarly, it feels like I need more 'hard' counters so I'm going to drop my 3rd Remand and something else for Logic Knot. I feel like I fill up the graveyard quickly enough to make use of at least two copies and I don't think the deck can afford another narrow counter i.e. Negate or Dispel.
Great call on Counterflux. There has been a definite uptick in combo decks lately and we have a very good recipe for beating them. Early pressure with counter magic along with the unbeatable counterflux and we should have a fairly awesome combo matchup. I just need to decide what to cut. I think I'm going to cut one deflecting plam since I added another Lightning Helix to my maindeck. I already had one open slot so two counterflux may just be the ticket. We will just have to see if combo continues to win tournaments and make top 8's.
Goryo's Vengeance is another combo deck that has been doing very well right now. Currently I have Hallowed Moonlight, Deflecting Palm, Negate, Dispel, Echoing Truth in the board, but counterflux may also work. It might be to slow, but maybe not. Also the main deck has a lot of disruption too.
I keep thinking Izzet Charm would be a great card in my maindeck, but every time I try it out it seems underwhelming. Maybe now is the best time for it. What do you all think of Izzet Charm?
The more I have thought about it, I don't think the aggressive builds need counterflux. I have played ad nauseum 5 or so times in tournament/online and haven't lost to them yet. I'm sure luck has a lot to do with that, but with an early threat, I think messing with their mana rocks is often enough. I have tested against the deck and have definitely lost my fair share, but I do think we are favored against them. Dispel, Remand, Negate, Shattering Spree, Wear/Tear, and Stony Silence are all good to slow them down enough to allow our pressure to finish them off. I have had a ton of success destroying their mana rocks, remanding lotus blooms, and/or stony silencing them.
There are other decks I am worried about though, specifically the cheerios deck that has gained a ton of steam. I haven't tested against yet. Obviously our removal is amazing against them so as long as we keep the board clear of Srams and Puresteel Paladins I assume we will win. Has anyone played against them yet? I assume EE is good if they don't combo off. counter magic is probably good against retract. The aforementioned counterflux would be great against the Grapeshot finish. Theoretically, we may have the tools to beat them already now that I am thinking about it, but I haven't tried yet. I am going to test against them tonight so I will let you all know how it goes. Any suggestions as for what to side against them from those who have tested against the deck.
Also what other combo decks are you worried about?
The more I have thought about it, I don't think the aggressive builds need counterflux. I have played ad nauseum 5 or so times in tournament/online and haven't lost to them yet. I'm sure luck has a lot to do with that, but with an early threat, I think messing with their mana rocks is often enough. I have tested against the deck and have definitely lost my fair share, but I do think we are favored against them. Dispel, Remand, Negate, Shattering Spree, Wear/Tear, and Stony Silence are all good to slow them down enough to allow our pressure to finish them off. I have had a ton of success destroying their mana rocks, remanding lotus blooms, and/or stony silencing them.
There are other decks I am worried about though, specifically the cheerios deck that has gained a ton of steam. I haven't tested against yet. Obviously our removal is amazing against them so as long as we keep the board clear of Srams and Puresteel Paladins I assume we will win. Has anyone played against them yet? I assume EE is good if they don't combo off. counter magic is probably good against retract. The aforementioned counterflux would be great against the Grapeshot finish. Theoretically, we may have the tools to beat them already now that I am thinking about it, but I haven't tried yet. I am going to test against them tonight so I will let you all know how it goes. Any suggestions as for what to side against them from those who have tested against the deck.
Also what other combo decks are you worried about?
mainly ad nausuem and cheeri0s.
storm is all but dead but its replaced by cheeri0s though.
i did playtest cheeri0s a bunch when Sram went live on xmage and its a real deck and can/will spike tournaments if enough people play it and get past the pairing lottery.
another sideboard ammunition card you can pack against cheerios is chalice of the void. x for 0 and they are pretty much dead as long as u are able to race them and protect the chalice.
I watched the Twiddle Storm deck videos as well and it looks like a really cool deck. I do think Goryo's Vengeance, Ad Nauseum, and Cheerios are definitely the most played and most competitive combo decks right now. Jeskai tempo is typically a great place to be against combo decks, but boy are some of these decks fast!
Cheerios-
I practiced last night against the Cherrios deck that Zac Elsick played. I do have to say it seems like the real deal. With that said, both Puresteel Paladin and Sram, Senior Edificer die to basically all of the removal in our deck. Because they have to have one of these on the board we can land a threat and then just make sure they never get to keep a paladin or sram on the battlefield. After testing, I'm not going to change the deck in any way for this deck. I was able to beat it often enough with just the ample amount of bolt, helix, path, etc in our deck backed with a delver, swiftspear, etc. In a couple of games, simply bouncing their threat was enough to keep them off of the combo long enough. We also already have Stony Silence, Negate, Dispel, etc in our sideboard. They do sideboard in Silence and Leyline of Sanctity, but neither are too bad. Leyline is just not great against us because we have so many efficient creatures and can use our burn against their threats. Silence is very good against us because they can silence and then counter a removal spell and go off. There isn't a ton we can do about that and they do have to have a threat down, a silence, and a counter spell as well as mana to spend so they often don't get to that point. If they are on the play and have a god hand we basically have to have path/bolt to even hold on. Like most combo decks they will go off sometimes very quickly and there is simply nothing we can do about it. My conclusion is that unless this deck really becomes a tier one deck and is played a lot, I don't think we need any additional help to beat this deck 50% of the time.
Goryo's Vengeance-
Goryo's Vengeance is in the same boat. If you currently run any graveyard hate (surgical extraction, rest in peace or animation hate like Hallowed Moonlight) this should be enough in combination with path, vapor snag, spell snare, spell pierce, etc. Deflecting Palm is also a great option against this deck because they often attack with a Griselbrand and/or Emrakul, The Aeons Torn and they typically don't have any way to counter the deflecting palm. I have seen both the grixis and jund version of this deck, but I think the Jund version with Worldspine Wurm is the more popular version. Attacking this from several angles with hallowed moonlight, counter magic, deflecting palm, and removal, leaves the opponent on the back foot having to hope we don't have it. As with Cherrios, there is no way to really insure that we have a 80-20 matchup against them because they can just be too fast for us to deal with and beat us through the hate. Thus is the life against combo and that's something you have to live with. However, I don't think we need to add any additional specific hate for this deck at this time if you are already playing some type of graveyard hate, animation hate, and/or deflecting palm.
Storm-
This is the one I am really not prepared for. I don't have any Rule of Law style affects and don't currently play Counterflux. Thankfully this is the least played combo deck right now. If this does become popular I may have to include Counterflux as hate for this deck as well as others and/or Rule of Law for this and Cheerios. However, Rule of Law forces us to sideboard differently because it hurts the prowes/reveler plan. Right now I am not going to do anything about this deck as it is not very prevalent.
Ad Nauseam-
I wrote about this earlier and still basically feel the same way. I feel like we may even be slightly favored against Ad Nauseam. They hate a fast clock backed by disruption and that's basically what we do best. I spoke to a local Ad Nauseam player and he said the best thing an opponent can do is basically slow them down as much as possible. He informed me that many players try to counter or disrupt the combo finish, but they often have plenty of tools by the time they go off that there isn't much the opponent can do. He also said that Stony Silence is a card that is often not played that is tough for them to deal with (however they side in answers, but it still slows them down). So any type of hate for their mana rocks slows them down and Remand is surprisingly good against the Lotus Blooms in their deck. A good ad nauseam player will be patient and wait until they are safe and that's why we have to force their hand by having a decent clock. Echoing Truth can also be very good to bounce several mana rocks or bounce their Phyrexian Unlife to mess up their combo. This is another deck that takes some testing to become comfortable with, but I don't think we need any additional hate cards to beat them.
Let me know where you agree and/or disagree.
Excalibur- I think you are correct. It's time for me to come to the conclusion that Engineered Explosives is just to versatile to to have in my board. It's been in my board for 2 years now, but I keep thinking I can remove it. I need to just consider the sideboard like 10 cards with Negate, Dispel, 2x Stony Silence, and EE as cards that are never leaving the board.
Thanks for posting the video. This is awesome! I hope he does really well and helps put Jeskai delver on the map. As I have said before, I think Jeskai delver is very well positioned right now and more people are thinking about it with Caleb streaming it and now Magic the Gathering Strat. I will definitely be following his progress. Thanks again.
hey gang. I apologized to StevomatUWR awhile back via messager cuz i kinda called him out for no reason and acted like a complete douche. So just apologizing here just to clean the air. Now moving on...
This is my list! I've been getting deSTROYED online via xmage ( Ruthejc19 is my name, friend me! )
Ive been learning a lot about my playstlyle. I made a lot of misplays throughout this xmage journey. Heres my record... not a lot of wins to be warned... i have to get used to when to lean on pressure vs my counter magic. sometimes I realized I should have played my burn spell vs counter magic and sometimes vice/versa.
0-2 Cheerios (new puresteel paladin build)
2-0 Through the breach
1-2 Burn
1-2 R/W control (dont remember the record... its possible a 2-1)
0-2 Amulet Titan
0-2 Mill
1-2 U/W control (w/ sphinx's revelation)
Notes about the deck:
-I have never been able to cast Elspeth, every single time ive had it in my hand ive been stuck on lands. May drop her.
-I like Negate Mainboard
-I kinda want more spell pierce, it has been good.
-delver is great when it flips and is terrible when it doesnt lol
-there was only 1 game where i couldnt cast cryptic command (when i got to 4 mana)
-im thinking for the online thing i need to fix the manabase with another fetch and more basics + check lands like sulfur falls. its annoying when i get those fast lands on t4 lol
-i think geist has to go up to 4, just not seeing it enough to play it on curve.
-Vapor snag was in the place of path, and every single time... i absolutely hated it. so i dropped it for now lol
im getting my ass handed to me out here guys so anything you can say to help, i will greatly appreciate it lol will probably put sahili in the place of elsepth to test, or another geist. we will see!
*edit* went 1-0 against a bant exaulted deck (random casual player)
Got disconnected against infect but I would have 1-0'ed him. He had 1 card left iin hand with no infector on the field and i was about to slam geist and he was aat 12.
I was hoping to get some feedback for my deck. I was thinking about playing this at my lgs' modern FNM's.
4 delver of secrets
4 snapcaster mage
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Monastery Mentor
Sorceries:
4 serum visions
Instants:
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
2 boros charm
3 vapor snag
2 jeskai Charm
2 Peek
4 Mutagenic Growth
1 noxious revival
1 Saheeli Rai
Lands:
1 scalding tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 flooded strand
1 Steam vents
1 sacred foundry
1 hallowed fountain
4 spirebluff canal
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 seachrome coast
2 island
1 mountain
1 plains
3 Deflecting Palm
2 Rending Volley
2 wear//tear
2 negate
2 dispel
2 Spellskite
1 Swerve
1 Blessed Alliance
I'm not really a fan of cards like:
Jeskai Charm (not worth the 3 mana imho), Peek (I would rather use Sleight of Hand for selection), Noxious Revival (unless you are a combo deck).
I would also use Path to Exile over Vapor Snag as you are probably not quick enough to kill them before the card disadvantage becomes relevant and can't counter the creatures if they recast them.
Saheeli Rai is a decent card but I would probably sideboard her for something which is more relevant to the maindeck (removal/counters).
Saheeli is my fun card. I may end up cutting her, but would like to try playing with her.
Also, cutting some copies of Mutagenic Growth might be reasonable as well as they don't help against the new Fatal Push anyway and you are a "pump-combo" deck that needs a critical mass of free pump spells like "Infect" or "UR Prowess".
i did watch it and the games he won and lost is quite atypical for the jeskai delver decks.
just slightly off the tangent, i have been testing esper delver (because of fatal push) and that deck could run 2-3 cryptic commands because its a very durdle-ly deck. granted, my version has the snapcaster/delver/tasigur assault package and lingering souls as back up. i even run 1 copy of sphinx revelation and get to cast it for 2/3 because the deck was THAT durdle-ly. i found that after about 10+ games, cryptic command has some play in that deck. and no, i don't like the EVEN more durdle-ly planeswalker version of the esper control deck... it spends so much time just turtle-ing until turn 8 - 10. esper also tends to prefer to end games with Celestial Colonnade because their threat level is so low... but man-lands now get hit by fatal push so you need to play around that when facing up any deck that has black.
i feel that jeskai delver could run cryptic command at the sacrifice of remands... but i can never get used to it because i always play the tempo game with the deck and early tempo play with remands and vapor snags won me countless games. remand always has play because its such an elegant card. jeskai delver also doesn't have the option of running a big fatty like tasigur or angler, which is another problem. i guess bedlam reveler is a good 1-2 off to play the similar game as an example:
4 delver
4 snapcaster
2 bedlam reveler
2-3 mantis rider?
mandatory cantrips
4 serum visions
x remand
1-2 cryptic command
2 - 4 think twice
the usual stuff
4 x lightning bolt
4 x path to exile
counter magic
1-2 logic knot
1-2 deprive
1 negate
1 dispel
another observation i made after testing many of the different wedge delver builds is that the other wedge builds have their own staple removals:
grixis: fatal push /terminate/ lightning bolt
sultai: maelstrom pulse / abrupt decay/ fatal push
esper: path to exile / fatal push
jeskai: path to exile/ lightning bolt
grixis and sultai are stronger because snapcaster mage has 3 different options to target for removal. esper and jeskai only have 2. all versions can run cryptic commands which adds to the snapcaster targets but at 6 mana late game play.
i think the jeskai delver variant that runs a 19 land / 1 - 3 cryptic command variant is a viable build but only if you sacrifice deck building space for a less tempo-y aggro line up. and that build requires you load up more on cantrips to max out on land drops. i think think twice is a must have here instead of sleigh of hand.
one of my biggest bane with regards to playing control decks of today is i can no longer pack sweepers like wrath of god / supreme verdict in the main as they are actually a type of card disadvantage if you are already loading up on 1 for 1s. 10-15 years ago, 4 mana sweepers are mandatory in control decks... but in today's modern magic... its so different... and to an extent, skill intensive.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Hi CurdBros. I have to say that I didn't like the games. First match he only wins because the opponent can't use Remand right. Second match he loses because Dredge has very good draws, but also because he has too many high cost cards in hand and not enough mana. This shows why it's not a good idea to run CMC4 cards like Cryptic in a 19 land deck. Third match is completely pointless, because the opponent doesn't do anything even with 14 mana available in a Tron deck and 4 cards in hand. Burn match is interesting though...
The MTGO algorithm for drawing lands looks so weird to me. He ends up with 5-6 lands in play almost every single game which never happens in real life--at least not to me. Otherwise I would be running Thundermaw Hellkite in my Delver deck...
I wish he used a more interesting Jeskai Delver list with Reveler and Saheeli for example or at least with some cards that can help Geist go through blockers, like Emerge Unscathed or Slip Through Space (1 Mutagenic Growth is not enough imho if you run 3 Geists).
I have to disagree here. You should keep at least one Jeskai Charm because that card actually is awesome even without Mentor. With Mentor that card will just win you a lot of games! I use the mode with +1/+1 & Lifelink most of the time and it helped me winning a lot of races. Also, 4 dmg to the face is awesome when your opponent has Spell Snare and he can't use it
Welcome to the jeskai prowess/delver topic Eur0n!
First off, I really like the strategy this deck utilizes. Kill them quickly and if they interact either land a mentor and take over or burn them out.
I like that you included Peek in your list a lot because it is very important to have plenty of cantrips in a mentor build and it's super helpful to know if the coast is clear to play mentor. While I typcially only play one Boros Charm I do think they gain additional value in a mentor/young p build to protect your army so running two here is great. Another card that gains a ton of value in a mentor build is Jeskai Charm. As Twanicus mentioned to another poster, I too tend to sell this card short as well because I haven't played it much. It's great in some of our worse matchups and if I played Mentor maindeck I would likely play 1 or two of these.
I know I have said this a lot above, but mentor changes the way decks are built. He is so strong he can take over games, but he is a bit fragile. I think Mutagenic Growth is a great card in a Mentor build especially one running swiftspear as well. With that said, I don't think you want a full playset. I would probably suggest running 2 copies. I feel like you want a few more versatile spells in the deck and possibly more cantrips. Another card I have yet to test is Noxious Revival so I can't give to much advice as to how strong this card is in the deck.
If I were to make any changes I would likely cut two mutagenic growth and 1 lightning helix (as you have 2 boros charm and jeskai charm so your a bit heavy on burn) and add at least two Path to Exile and two cantrips such as Sleight of Hand. I know path is a nonbo sometimes with the deck's strategy, but sometimes it's just the only answer we have to some threats. If you don't like mainboard paths I would suggest adding a few sideboard and possibly bring the swerve in to the mainboard.
As for the sideboard, what are the Rending Volley in the deck for? If your meta is heavy in merfolk and or saheeli rai combo I totally understand, I was just interested to find out. I have noticed that the saheeli rai combo has been skyrocketing in some recent events so we may need to add these back into our boards anyways.
Let me know what you think about my suggestions and how the deck performs. Thanks again for posting it!
To be honest, your list looks really good right now. I would likely try to fit two copies of Sleight of Hand or Peek into the deck to give Grim Lavamancer a bit more food and to smooth our draws in general. Because your running 20 lands the deck manipulation is not as big of a problem for you as it is for those of us running 18ish lands. I have also really liked Forked Bolt lately.
You are not wrong.
Jeskai players are spoilt for choice when it comes to instants! They can lean harder on burn strategies (i even ran Rift Bolt once) with a slight tempo-ish set up with some Cryptic Command as a top of the curve play. Jeskai also boasts the best sideboard set up, second to Esper, mainly because of White.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
His deck is definitely a bit more on the midrange side and can handle cryptic command. I'm not convinced that is the best way to build a jeskai delver deck, but Caleb is pretty awesome and is a great player so I will definitely test it out. I have found that the major benefit to playing the jeskai shard is the burn damage and ability to be aggressive. I have also found that I typically need all three colors in play. Therefore, cryptic feels like a tough addition to me. However, in the decks that are more tempo oriented and then side into a more conrol oriented deck, cryptic is a great bridge card at the top end to be able to play both a tempo game and control game. Basically, if someone's deck can play cryptic command it's probably correct to be playing it.
As for your planeswalker dilemma I think Chandra sounds better. To be honest, a vast majority of the time I use Saheeli's -2 ability it's on a Bedlam Reveler and/or Snapcaster Mage. I probably would only recommend her if your playing reveler or Torrential Gearhulk. I have thought of adding a Torrential Gearhulk to my sideboard and possibly another artifact (maybe a sword) to utilize her ultimate. I have gotten to her ultimate ability several times and would have loved to ulimate her. It may just be win more, but it's always fun to tinker. For your deck, Chandra sounds a lot better.
On another note, I see a lot of 4x helix in a lot of lists and I was trying to find another card for my burn matchup so I think you guys are probably right and I need another helix. I cut one sleight of hand and added a third helix to my maindeck.
Hello,
Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure of what to replace the Gitaxian Probes with. I figured one additional Mutagenic Growth and Peek made sense. Not sure on Noxious Revival. It just seemed it could be useful in various ways (get back something useful or mess up an opponents draw). I added it to test. I could see myself cutting 1/2 Growth + Revival for 2 more Peek and Path?
As far as cutting Lightning Helix. There is a good amount of aggro and/or burn. I feel that in those matchups Helix would shine.
Rending Volley: We have 1 resident merfolk player, and Kira is annoying. I figured this would warrant the Rending volleys. Also, there is no graveyard based decks, so therefore no GY hate, making room for Spellskite (vs boggles). Overall I tuned my SB to my lgs.
I appreciate the feedback, and will definitely consider different options as I play more.
As to the conversation about land, personally in most matches I play I am quickly sitting on 4-5 land and I tend to end games with 7-8 land. I play 18 land in my list. I've been playing the deck regularly for months now and can count the times I've gotten mana screwed on two hands. I am aware this may be observational bias or statistical anomalies at work but over such a long period of time that seems unlikely.
About Lightning Helix I don't think cutting it is a good idea. The fact that it gains life, deals damage and can hit either creatures or the face makes it a very versatile card. Even against more control-oriented deck it feels like the card helps me stave off their finisher long enough for me to kill them.
In the meta I expect to face at tournaments I go to, I expect to see a good deal more Ad Nauseam, which is a terrible matchup for my version at the very least, so I'm going to try making room in my sideboard for two copies of Counterflux.
Similarly, it feels like I need more 'hard' counters so I'm going to drop my 3rd Remand and something else for Logic Knot. I feel like I fill up the graveyard quickly enough to make use of at least two copies and I don't think the deck can afford another narrow counter i.e. Negate or Dispel.
I generally agree on your assessments after some tinkering around post Probe ban.
I am currently tinkering with a burn heavy build with 2 logic knots and 2 deprives maindeck. playsets of lightning helix, lightning bolt and rift bolt for the aggressive line up.
i haven't decided on the vapor snag and remand numbers yet. will let you guys know later when i can more games in.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Great call on Counterflux. There has been a definite uptick in combo decks lately and we have a very good recipe for beating them. Early pressure with counter magic along with the unbeatable counterflux and we should have a fairly awesome combo matchup. I just need to decide what to cut. I think I'm going to cut one deflecting plam since I added another Lightning Helix to my maindeck. I already had one open slot so two counterflux may just be the ticket. We will just have to see if combo continues to win tournaments and make top 8's.
Goryo's Vengeance is another combo deck that has been doing very well right now. Currently I have Hallowed Moonlight, Deflecting Palm, Negate, Dispel, Echoing Truth in the board, but counterflux may also work. It might be to slow, but maybe not. Also the main deck has a lot of disruption too.
I keep thinking Izzet Charm would be a great card in my maindeck, but every time I try it out it seems underwhelming. Maybe now is the best time for it. What do you all think of Izzet Charm?
There are other decks I am worried about though, specifically the cheerios deck that has gained a ton of steam. I haven't tested against yet. Obviously our removal is amazing against them so as long as we keep the board clear of Srams and Puresteel Paladins I assume we will win. Has anyone played against them yet? I assume EE is good if they don't combo off. counter magic is probably good against retract. The aforementioned counterflux would be great against the Grapeshot finish. Theoretically, we may have the tools to beat them already now that I am thinking about it, but I haven't tried yet. I am going to test against them tonight so I will let you all know how it goes. Any suggestions as for what to side against them from those who have tested against the deck.
Also what other combo decks are you worried about?
can hit paladins and Srams, or hit their eggs before retract can resolve.
mainly ad nausuem and cheeri0s.
storm is all but dead but its replaced by cheeri0s though.
i did playtest cheeri0s a bunch when Sram went live on xmage and its a real deck and can/will spike tournaments if enough people play it and get past the pairing lottery.
another sideboard ammunition card you can pack against cheerios is chalice of the void. x for 0 and they are pretty much dead as long as u are able to race them and protect the chalice.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Cheerios-
I practiced last night against the Cherrios deck that Zac Elsick played. I do have to say it seems like the real deal. With that said, both Puresteel Paladin and Sram, Senior Edificer die to basically all of the removal in our deck. Because they have to have one of these on the board we can land a threat and then just make sure they never get to keep a paladin or sram on the battlefield. After testing, I'm not going to change the deck in any way for this deck. I was able to beat it often enough with just the ample amount of bolt, helix, path, etc in our deck backed with a delver, swiftspear, etc. In a couple of games, simply bouncing their threat was enough to keep them off of the combo long enough. We also already have Stony Silence, Negate, Dispel, etc in our sideboard. They do sideboard in Silence and Leyline of Sanctity, but neither are too bad. Leyline is just not great against us because we have so many efficient creatures and can use our burn against their threats. Silence is very good against us because they can silence and then counter a removal spell and go off. There isn't a ton we can do about that and they do have to have a threat down, a silence, and a counter spell as well as mana to spend so they often don't get to that point. If they are on the play and have a god hand we basically have to have path/bolt to even hold on. Like most combo decks they will go off sometimes very quickly and there is simply nothing we can do about it. My conclusion is that unless this deck really becomes a tier one deck and is played a lot, I don't think we need any additional help to beat this deck 50% of the time.
Goryo's Vengeance-
Goryo's Vengeance is in the same boat. If you currently run any graveyard hate (surgical extraction, rest in peace or animation hate like Hallowed Moonlight) this should be enough in combination with path, vapor snag, spell snare, spell pierce, etc. Deflecting Palm is also a great option against this deck because they often attack with a Griselbrand and/or Emrakul, The Aeons Torn and they typically don't have any way to counter the deflecting palm. I have seen both the grixis and jund version of this deck, but I think the Jund version with Worldspine Wurm is the more popular version. Attacking this from several angles with hallowed moonlight, counter magic, deflecting palm, and removal, leaves the opponent on the back foot having to hope we don't have it. As with Cherrios, there is no way to really insure that we have a 80-20 matchup against them because they can just be too fast for us to deal with and beat us through the hate. Thus is the life against combo and that's something you have to live with. However, I don't think we need to add any additional specific hate for this deck at this time if you are already playing some type of graveyard hate, animation hate, and/or deflecting palm.
Storm-
This is the one I am really not prepared for. I don't have any Rule of Law style affects and don't currently play Counterflux. Thankfully this is the least played combo deck right now. If this does become popular I may have to include Counterflux as hate for this deck as well as others and/or Rule of Law for this and Cheerios. However, Rule of Law forces us to sideboard differently because it hurts the prowes/reveler plan. Right now I am not going to do anything about this deck as it is not very prevalent.
Ad Nauseam-
I wrote about this earlier and still basically feel the same way. I feel like we may even be slightly favored against Ad Nauseam. They hate a fast clock backed by disruption and that's basically what we do best. I spoke to a local Ad Nauseam player and he said the best thing an opponent can do is basically slow them down as much as possible. He informed me that many players try to counter or disrupt the combo finish, but they often have plenty of tools by the time they go off that there isn't much the opponent can do. He also said that Stony Silence is a card that is often not played that is tough for them to deal with (however they side in answers, but it still slows them down). So any type of hate for their mana rocks slows them down and Remand is surprisingly good against the Lotus Blooms in their deck. A good ad nauseam player will be patient and wait until they are safe and that's why we have to force their hand by having a decent clock. Echoing Truth can also be very good to bounce several mana rocks or bounce their Phyrexian Unlife to mess up their combo. This is another deck that takes some testing to become comfortable with, but I don't think we need any additional hate cards to beat them.
Let me know where you agree and/or disagree.
Excalibur- I think you are correct. It's time for me to come to the conclusion that Engineered Explosives is just to versatile to to have in my board. It's been in my board for 2 years now, but I keep thinking I can remove it. I need to just consider the sideboard like 10 cards with Negate, Dispel, 2x Stony Silence, and EE as cards that are never leaving the board.
Thanks for posting the video. This is awesome! I hope he does really well and helps put Jeskai delver on the map. As I have said before, I think Jeskai delver is very well positioned right now and more people are thinking about it with Caleb streaming it and now Magic the Gathering Strat. I will definitely be following his progress. Thanks again.
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Spell Queller
Instant (20)
2x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
1x Negate
3x Path to Exile
4x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
4x Serum Visions
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land (20)
2x Arid Mesa
2x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Inspiring Vantage
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
sideboard
Sideboard (15)
1x Dispel
1x Echoing Truth
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kari Zev's Expertise
1x Negate
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Spell Pierce
2x Stony Silence
2x Wear / Tear
hey gang. I apologized to StevomatUWR awhile back via messager cuz i kinda called him out for no reason and acted like a complete douche. So just apologizing here just to clean the air. Now moving on...
This is my list! I've been getting deSTROYED online via xmage ( Ruthejc19 is my name, friend me! )
Ive been learning a lot about my playstlyle. I made a lot of misplays throughout this xmage journey. Heres my record... not a lot of wins to be warned... i have to get used to when to lean on pressure vs my counter magic. sometimes I realized I should have played my burn spell vs counter magic and sometimes vice/versa.
0-2 Cheerios (new puresteel paladin build)
2-0 Through the breach
1-2 Burn
1-2 R/W control (dont remember the record... its possible a 2-1)
0-2 Amulet Titan
0-2 Mill
1-2 U/W control (w/ sphinx's revelation)
Notes about the deck:
-I have never been able to cast Elspeth, every single time ive had it in my hand ive been stuck on lands. May drop her.
-I like Negate Mainboard
-I kinda want more spell pierce, it has been good.
-delver is great when it flips and is terrible when it doesnt lol
-there was only 1 game where i couldnt cast cryptic command (when i got to 4 mana)
-im thinking for the online thing i need to fix the manabase with another fetch and more basics + check lands like sulfur falls. its annoying when i get those fast lands on t4 lol
-i think geist has to go up to 4, just not seeing it enough to play it on curve.
-Vapor snag was in the place of path, and every single time... i absolutely hated it. so i dropped it for now lol
im getting my ass handed to me out here guys so anything you can say to help, i will greatly appreciate it lol will probably put sahili in the place of elsepth to test, or another geist. we will see!
*edit* went 1-0 against a bant exaulted deck (random casual player)
Got disconnected against infect but I would have 1-0'ed him. He had 1 card left iin hand with no infector on the field and i was about to slam geist and he was aat 12.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.