I'm thinking about building something like this list. I'm not sure about the path to exile and vapor snag split. Should I even be playing vapor snag since this list isn't super Aggro?
Based on my experience spell pierce in the main is hurting the consistency of the deck. Also, I'd suggest cutting a land and adding a basic plains, it does come in handy in many situations. Lastly, I believe Snags are better in the mainboard and Snapcaster Mage is a hell of a card to omit even as a 2-of.
Please tell me that Ascendancy works, I ******* love that card!
Hope the above help! (Also siding in mentors against infect, why? )
delver + yp/mm builds do exist but usually not together.
as a general guideline, yp/mm builds are semi control (aka tempo) builds that tries to go
i) early aggro
ii) disruption (lightning bolt, vapor snag, light counter magic like remand)
iii) close the game with burn or mid game drop like mm.
fundamentally, you need gas to power mm as a mid game drop. cantrips like serum visions, remand and gitaxian probe helps. it is not unheard of to use snapcaster mage to power up cantrips in the graveyard to keep the handsize healthy.
why is mm preferred than yp?
prowess. and the tokens has prowess. for just 1 mana more you get tonnes of extra value compared to yp.
monk tokens are also harder to block because the prowess triggers can threaten a blow out.
early drops for jeskai tempo/prowess decks are usually monastery swiftspear / delver anyways to leave the other 1/2 mana open for tempo spells. so a turn 4-5 mentor drop is fine as any disruption coming your way will result in some reaction from you (creation of monk tokens) if/before mm would die.
as a general guide, the creature template for mm builds looks like this:
i have tinkered with yp in jeskai shells but just didn't feel right for me. the 1/1 tokens just didn't do enough for me.
i proxied up mms recently and they feel much better.
between geist and mm, imho i would go mm simply because of prowess. it encourages me to be aggressive. geist is just feels bad when i am encouraged to attack for the 4/4 angel but good chance will lose geist to a blocker that i might not be able to remove. or i may able to remove after combat damage dealt, but it will be a 2 for 1 on my part which is card disadvantage.
Hello guys, i think im going to make my 1post on the jeskai community.
Im currently testing this brew with some friends at the stores right now. I got inspired for all the posts on this thread, and let me tell you to keep on the good work :P.
At this moment i dont have a clear idea for the sideboard, since i need more playtesting with the deck.
So far i am liking the mana curve suite, as well as the interaction between the cards. When it goes well the deck is explosive and we get that "feels good man" feeling
I putted in Saheeli rai and abbot of keral keep. i think they can provide a clock on the deck thining process that snapcaster cant achive, since we have Scry from saheeli and from serum visions, abbot of keral keep often works as extra sweet draw that you can chain with your board status (like with snapcaster, but instead of going for the GY, we are making draws).
This is one example that occoured me, (probably the best one so far):
Turn4
Board:
Monastery
Stormchaser
Saheeli
Play:
1-Serum Visions (Draw, and saw a probe and a mutagenic)
2-Abbot to field (draw probe)
3-Saheeli -2 on abbot
4-Haste token of abbot enters (draw mutagenic)
5-Play probe (draw a bolt)
6-Play bolt to face
7-Mutagenic on stormchaser
Damage:
4 from Monastery
6 from Stormchaser
5 from haste abbot
3 from bolt
So on turn 4 i draw 4 cards (draw step+serum and abbot's) and swing for 18 damage, finishing my friends infect for a long mile
Feel free to adjust and comment the deck, any sugestions are wellcome, especially on SB material and ManaBase
(sorry for my bad english, not a native)
Welcome to the topic and to MTG Salvation. You have found one of the most active topics with some really great guys and gals. We are glad to have you. It's really great seeing a number of new posters lke crssherman1990, mtToulis, and yourself.
Now back to the deck. I am a huge fan of Abbot of Keral Keep. It's actually probably my favorite card printed ever. I have played him in the deck in the past, but I don't have room for him right now. I may have to give him another look. I am looking forward to hearing how he does for you. I am also a huge fan of Saheeli so her interaction with abbot is really nice. I have been looking for a sideboard card against jund and abzan and abbot may be the card I am looking for. Thank you for reminding me.
The deck looks awesome to me. Here are the only questions I have:
How often are the spell pierces good for you? I often prefer to have a dedicated counter suite (4-6 counters) or non at all in the main deck. Spell pierce is my current favorite counter spells, but seem a little out of place. However, I haven't tested your build.
What are the ascendancies for in the sideboard?
I really like your take on the deck and look forward to your input in the future.
Hi Everybody. I hope you all had a great new years weekend!
On the topic of delver and young pyromancer, I think it's always important to make sure we are asking ourselves what we are trying to accomplish with the deck? With delver and young pyromancer, the only way they truly fit together is in a more pure tempo based deck including a higher number of counter spells. That way you gain value off of both of their abilities. Flash creatures would fit well in this style of deck.
If your goal is to be slightly more aggressive with delver in game one, young pyro often doesn't fit as well. Monastery Mentor oftens plays a more aggressive role better because of the prowess and prowess tokens.
If your goal is to overwhelm the board while controlling the game action, you could run both young pyromancer and monastery mentor together with a large number of disruption and removal spells.
There are so many ways to build the creatures base in a prowess deck but we always have to make sure each creature in the deck plays towards the same goal and that the spells we chose to pair with them help us reach that goal.
Because I like an aggro-control style deck I prefer delver, swiftspear, snap, geist, and revelor. Young Pyro and mentor didn't fit my preferred style because I don't have a critical mass of phyrexian spells in my deck. I'm not saying this is the correct approach (I don't think there is a right or wrong approach), it's just what worked for my preference and end goal. My goal was to utilize tempo/protection/unblockability to kill the opponent with efficient threats. As I sad above, I really wanted Abbot of Keral Keep to work in my maindeck, but it simply didn't fit. I want to start the game very aggressively on the back of a threat and then protect that threat. Abbot was really tough to play on turn 2 and therefore didn't match that philosophy. The same went for young pyromancer. She didn't gain enough from my unblockable spells and early aggression to warrant inclusion.
I feel like Monastery Mentor is a true odd man out. He can really fit in just about any jeskai delver deck. He can kill quickly with a lot of spells and can draw game out. His only weakness is matchup dependant. He is weak to removal, but I do think he pretty much fits in any jeskai prowess list.
Now onto another topic........Aethor Revolt Spoilers!!!!
It looks like the expertise cycle is a real thing. We already got the white expertise spell and it doesn't really fit our deck, but I am super excited about the blue and the red expertise spells for jeskai prowess. It appears as though they may all be 4 CMC spells and so far they have all dealt with 3 in their text (-3/-3 and 3 servos). What to you think they will be? Here is my crack at it.
Red (Advika's) Expertise 2RR
Sorcery
Deal 3 damage divided any way you choose to target creatures or players.
You may cast a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying it's mana cost.
Blue (Bahral's) Expertse 2UU
Instant
Choose one
-Counter target spell with converted mana cost of 3 or less.
-Return target creature you don't control with a converted mana cost 3 or less to it's owner's hand.
You may cast a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying it's mana cost.
Maybe I am being to conservative with my design, but I would definitely test the red one. There have been some great cards spoiled so far so I am very optimistic about this set.
Now that the green expertise has been spoiled it doesn't look like there is any template. They could possibly be a 3 CMC spell and cast a 2 CMC spell for free. That's great news for our decks. This opens up huge possibilities for the Blue and Red expertise spells. Here is to hoping they fit our deck.
Here is a note from a great game I played the other night.
I was playing against abzan. The opponent was at 8 life, but had turned the corner on the game and had 4 soul tokens (from lingering souls) and a grim flayer with delirium. I was at 8 life and had a snapcaster mage in hand. We were both top decking and it was the end of his turn. I snapcaster helixed him to avoid lethal on his next turn putting him to 5 life. I drew a serum visions and cast it drawing a slip through space. I slip through space my snapcaster mage and drew a vapor snag. I attacked him down to 3, vapor snaged my snapcaster and cast snapcaster bolt for the win. It was one of the craziest ways i have won a game in a long time.
Sideboard is a little different than what Jim Davis brought a month ago. I wanted to hear his thoughts at the end of the video and he basically says that the deck feels like it is missing something. He says the Goblin Guides and Vapor Snags are the awkward parts of the deck but the rest of the deck feels good outside of Mantis Rider getting bolted.
So baral's Expertise isnt really a tempo card or a card we want in general, I think.
But Baral, Chief of Compliance is very interesting, I could se him in a shell with mana leaks and remands for 1 mana and filtering is always a nice thing to have, guaranteeing us to not flood or if we need a specific card to dig for the answer, what are your thoughts on those two?
@curdbros: that's a pretty bonkers play, this definitely felt very satisfying. I don't think that the abzan match up is bad after the board its a little in our favour, I think.
I have the exact same thought, the blue expertise is really useless to us.. makes me kind of sad but im not entierly surprised being this set is focused on artifacts and the only artifact related expertise is the white one with servo tokens.. Hopefully the red gives us something better.
As for Baral, Chief of Compliance seeing this card is deffinatley more of a counter deck but my immediate thought for him is that it may mean we get more counter spells in this set, there isn't very many in standard at the moment (I could be wrong) so adding a card that is focused on counter magic leads me to believe we may see a few more aside from the Disallow that was spoiled earlier. Hopefully there will be some 1U counters and not just 1Ux.
On the topic of decks, I have decided to need to make 2 different decks. 1 Deck focused on my Geist of Saint Traft and 1 Aggro deck using the Prowess. Latley I have found that Delver is not flipping very well for me since adding the UW enchantment back into my deck which lowered my instant/Sorcery count down to 25 which statistically 25 - 27 instant/sorcery should never make a large discrepancy. It is nice having the early game threat for the deck almost like Grixis Delver was running, the problem being was their creatures are usually 4x Delver, 4x Snap, 3x Tasigur, 1x Fish, thanks to Delve they can play their threats more efficiently then I can with my Geist and Angels... So I think Delver comes out... but it means I get to build a new list for him, from scratch. Here is what I think I will be building (barring any other spoilers from the new set) let me know your thoughts.
Sideboard is a little different than what Jim Davis brought a month ago. I wanted to hear his thoughts at the end of the video and he basically says that the deck feels like it is missing something. He says the Goblin Guides and Vapor Snags are the awkward parts of the deck but the rest of the deck feels good outside of Mantis Rider getting bolted.
Thanks JDeezy,
I did catch this originally, but had it on in the background and didn't get to watch it much. I never went back to watch it. I tend to agree that the "burn/super aggro" lists seem to be missing something. I think the lack of any other game plan or real value really leaves this style deck at the whim of it's opening hand and 1st and 2nd draws of the game. Basically if everything goes to plan and the opponent doesn't have much removal than it's great, but if you stumble a little it's almost impossible to switch gears or adapt to a bad matchup. It is the fastest version of a jeskai prowess deck, but I just don't personally think goblin guide and mantis rider really fit what I think prowess does best. I feel like adding mentor to this style of list really helps with its fatal flaw. It gives you a late game threat that can help you get back into games and gives some type of value or pseudo card advantage. That's just my opinion though. Bedlam Reveler adds to the deck in a similar way.
I almost look at prowess as a plus, not really a definitive part of the deck.
Rafiq- I have thought of running two decks in the past as well. I just never thought I have enough time for two decks. I can barely keep up with one :). I would like to have a second deck that is based more around prowess with Abbot of Keral Keep and Monastery Mentor. I think my new years resolution will to be make a second jeskai prowess list. I have put a lot of time into my first list and am very happy with where it is at so why not try another style.
Aethor Revolt- With the release of the new black push spell Grixis Delver will see a huge upswing in meta percentage. This could be a bad thing for us because people will be prepared for delver decks. In addition, I think the modern meta will almost certainly slow down. I am interested to see how jeskai delver will fit in. We are a very different deck than grixis so the meta switch could be a very good thing as we attack from a different angle and have a lot of direct damage. I forsee Geist being very good if the meta slows down. We will see.
Rafiq- I have thought of running two decks in the past as well. I just never thought I have enough time for two decks. I can barely keep up with one :). I would like to have a second deck that is based more around prowess with Abbot of Keral Keep and Monastery Mentor. I think my new years resolution will to be make a second jeskai prowess list. I have put a lot of time into my first list and am very happy with where it is at so why not try another style.
I hear ya on this, I however already have a 2nd Modern deck (which rarley ever looses) and I have 2 brews that I am working on as well. Since i play with the same group of players i like having something different to play with from time to time. My biggest reason for this deck from me (i never planned to make it till now) is because when i was building for the Jeskai Prowess/Aggro and using Geist I just found that the deck wasn't where I wanted to be with Geist of Saint Traft... Sure it puts up numbers, and does what it was designed to do however it just wasn't what I was looking for my Geist shell. I do however like the shell as a whole and still want to play with it as it is, I like Delver and Swiftspear and I think that Mentor is a great top end. This second deck is designed solely on the Prowess ability and just being fast out of the gate which is why I have added no planeswalkers, and no Snapcaster mages.
As for my Geist of Saint Traft, he is going to be the "godhead" (Pun intended) of another the first deck... which in a nut shell is the same as what i was running previously but i am dropping the Delvers and making my list more of a control list with more counter spells and Celestial Colonnades... This deck may become an Esper variant however due to the new black removal spell being spoiled but that is not deffinative.. nor is it for this forum.
I do still agree with the style of list you run yourself Curdbros with Geist in it (it's why I came here in the first place) I just never could quite find the right niche for it as the deck didn't have enough protection for Geist and so he wasn't doing what i wanted, when i started shifting gears to add the protection via Angels, Cryptic etc, i lost some value i gained from the remainder of this shell. But i also do not want to leave this forum as I said above i love this tempo/aggro style and I need to add one to my arsenal of decks and Jeskai colors are amazing so I am here to stay but will just be using a different tune of deck
I totally understand rafiq. We have to play what we love but can't sacrifice winning for it. I would love to run abbot but it just doesn't fit. I do think that the mentor version is the best jeskai prowess version right now. I'm personally perform better with my list bc I have been playing it forever, but a mentor list similar to Ian's list is extremely consistent and is very good. That's part of the reason I want to give a mentor version a try as well and see what I come up with.
Your always welcome here. I love this deck and am a bit stubborn so I will always have this deck sleeved up and be here to tak jeskai delver/tempo.
I assume a few people will at least give grixis a try with the new push removal spell and that's totally cool. The more delver players the better! Grixis delved/tempo and jeskai delver/tempo are completely different decks so I don't think it will eat into the jeskai deck too much. Hopefully this will give more people confidence in delver and tempo decks and they will give jeskai a try.
I am excited to see how the meta moves. I think it will slow down a bit and will diversify into more of a rock,paper,scissor style meta with aggro, midrange, and control decks. If this does happen that would be awesome news because a wide open meta is where delver tempo decks fit the best.
I am super excited for the jeskai prowess deck in a post AER world.
I foresee grixis being tampered with definitly but I also feel that the New removal spell will spawn decent Esper variants that are more control/tempo as the one major thing Esper Delver lacked was a solid removal outside path. With Fatal Push Esper Delver will have T1 Delver/Inquisition/Thoughtseize, T2 Counter/Thought Scour/Fatal Push/ Tasigur, T3 Geist of saint Traft/Counter/snapcaster. I can see this comin out of he woodwork now and I myself am even thinking of this for my Geist of Saint Traft shell... again it's another deck another forum so not for here but I honk we might start seeing these control variants
Fatal Push happens to also be one of the missing pieces for Sultai Delver.
Sultai Delver has its own strengths being Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, both powerful non-land permanent removals that both Grixis, Jeskai and Esper kind of lack mainboard.
The Esper and Sultai variants are the most interesting because they are basically new territory to explore. Tasigur just works so well with delver decks.
I personally just can't get away from jeskai. I think the direct damage that bolt, helix, Boris charm, electrolyze, etc offer just can't be matched by other delver variants in terms of raw power and synergy with delver.
Tasigur, abrupt decay, thiughtseize, and such allow a player to play a more controlling strategy in the tempo or delver variant which could be more suitable to some players. I prefer a slightly more aggressive take on tempo to take advantage of spells like remand, vapor snag, boros charm, etc so red is a must for me. Also swiftspear is tough to pass up.
If you do like more control I bet there will be a very cool esper Geist/mentor tempo list. It's always great getting new goodies that open up brewing opportunities in modern. I still think jeskai is the best shard for delver tempo, but there will definitely be competitive esper, grixis, and sultai versions of the deck now. The only one I think that really loses out is maybe temur.
I agree that Temur delver has lost alot of it's merits being as it is a worse version of Jund and Burn in 1 package. As for the other versions (not going to discuss their deck creation) I believe we can classify each version into their own catagories and in doing so we can work at ways that we can sideboard or even main board against these new threats as they appear.
Jeskai Delver: Tempo/Aggro
- This is the most aggressive deck, running more 1 drop creatures that pump and has reach in the form of burn, we can become a burn deck if needed and can hold back in other situations to turn the corner at optimal time
- Probably the most intricate of any versions as it does require us to be more careful in what we do choose to counter, more calculations involved on weather a burn spell is best spent on a creature or to the face for damage all while keeping our threats alive to push through.
Sultai Delver: Midrange/Value
- This version falls into the Midrange/Value catagory as it will probably focus less on counterspells and more on resolving larger threats like Tarmagoyf, Tasigur etc and gaining most of it's tempo from hand manipulation.
- Will have a large array of removal spells from single target to board wipes and permanent removal. May potentially be packing Collected Company. Also a new instant spell 2CMC that makes their creatures hexproof and indestructible will make removing threats difficult.
Esper Delver: Tempo/Control
- This shell will be the most controlling packing multiple counterspells, hand disruption and exile effect. threats to watch would be Tasigur, Geist of Saint Traft and Monastery Mentor.
- This will also have access to more hand disruption in the form of Tidehallow Sculler, and creature based counters like Spell Queller or Reflector Mage bouncing. Compared to Jeskai who has these options as well this deck will play more to the late game and utalize these more.. Might even see more ETB style of Delver with flickers.
Grixis Delver: Control/Midrange
- We all know these lists, they pack reach as we do, creature removal, hand disruption and plan for a Tasigur threat resolving. This deck will not win in the early game but plans to just remove your threats instead of countering them.
- Has a minor combo with Snapcaster / K-command.
So, now that we have each one broken down into where they should fit (please feel free to correct me if my assesment is incorrect) we need to have a way to win against these decks. I personally believe we have a strong advantage with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, however our biggest issue will be dealing with Tasigur and Tarmagoyf. We have ways of dealing with them now but if their pressence is going to increase we may need more then just a Path to Exile and Vapor Snag. This could mean we sideboard in more counterspells, deflecting palms etc, Geist of Saint Traft will also remain a strong threat as only a Board wipe can get rid of him outside of blocking.
Esper Delver if created correctly I think will be the most challenging for us due to the mass amounts of counterspells, hand control and hard to remove creatures they will be packing. I think this match up is going to be best by resolving our creature earlyer (delver/Swiftspear) and hoping to get in the first couple of turns around 5-10 damage to finish the rest off with burn or a late game bedlam reveler.
Sultai Delver will be a game of not over extending ourselves to have a Maelstrom pulse blow out our swiftspears on board, and we can probably get rid of some counterspells as we cannot touch Abrupt Decay. and remanding a fatal push or path to exile will not do us alot. Bringing in indestructible cards like Boros Charm will be strong against this.
I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
...I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
I don't want to rain on your parade but just to bring a point, the issue with Jeskai Delver has never been its answers or its sideboard, but its threats... you can't ignore the advantage Grixis and Temur have with their threats, namely Tasigur and Tarmogoyf/Mandrills, all of them pass the bolt test and all except tarmo pass the decay test, but tarmo makes up for that with extreme efficiency. Sadly, color white doesn't offer creatures of that caliber, the deck has to make up with either Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, Mantis Rider or Spell Queller (if I'm missing one please correct me), all but geist dying to both bolt and decay, but geist can be chump blocked easily... that's the reason I've been running Grixis rather than Jeskai for almost a year now, but I still keep up with the thread and hoping a new creature comes that makes Jeskai worth trying again, or that someone works a build that manages to win with the available creatures (I for one don't have the time to work that out, barely play modern once or twice a month these days). The only creature I've seen printed these days that can survive both bolt and decay, has cmc 2-3, and can be a real beater is Bedlam Reveler, but the issue with it is that it requires a more all-in and aggressive approach leaving us a bit vulnerable, and I haven't seen anyone pull results with him, but I still think that a Jeskai Delver deck with the reveler might be the best build for the current and coming metas, specially since Queller being the second best threat in my mind now will have to face also Fatal Push
Best of lucks to all Jeskai Delver players
I agree that Temur delver has lost alot of it's merits being as it is a worse version of Jund and Burn in 1 package. As for the other versions (not going to discuss their deck creation) I believe we can classify each version into their own catagories and in doing so we can work at ways that we can sideboard or even main board against these new threats as they appear.
Jeskai Delver: Tempo/Aggro
- This is the most aggressive deck, running more 1 drop creatures that pump and has reach in the form of burn, we can become a burn deck if needed and can hold back in other situations to turn the corner at optimal time
- Probably the most intricate of any versions as it does require us to be more careful in what we do choose to counter, more calculations involved on weather a burn spell is best spent on a creature or to the face for damage all while keeping our threats alive to push through.
Sultai Delver: Midrange/Value
- This version falls into the Midrange/Value catagory as it will probably focus less on counterspells and more on resolving larger threats like Tarmagoyf, Tasigur etc and gaining most of it's tempo from hand manipulation.
- Will have a large array of removal spells from single target to board wipes and permanent removal. May potentially be packing Collected Company. Also a new instant spell 2CMC that makes their creatures hexproof and indestructible will make removing threats difficult.
Esper Delver: Tempo/Control
- This shell will be the most controlling packing multiple counterspells, hand disruption and exile effect. threats to watch would be Tasigur, Geist of Saint Traft and Monastery Mentor.
- This will also have access to more hand disruption in the form of Tidehallow Sculler, and creature based counters like Spell Queller or Reflector Mage bouncing. Compared to Jeskai who has these options as well this deck will play more to the late game and utalize these more.. Might even see more ETB style of Delver with flickers.
Grixis Delver: Control/Midrange
- We all know these lists, they pack reach as we do, creature removal, hand disruption and plan for a Tasigur threat resolving. This deck will not win in the early game but plans to just remove your threats instead of countering them.
- Has a minor combo with Snapcaster / K-command.
So, now that we have each one broken down into where they should fit (please feel free to correct me if my assesment is incorrect) we need to have a way to win against these decks. I personally believe we have a strong advantage with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, however our biggest issue will be dealing with Tasigur and Tarmagoyf. We have ways of dealing with them now but if their pressence is going to increase we may need more then just a Path to Exile and Vapor Snag. This could mean we sideboard in more counterspells, deflecting palms etc, Geist of Saint Traft will also remain a strong threat as only a Board wipe can get rid of him outside of blocking.
Esper Delver if created correctly I think will be the most challenging for us due to the mass amounts of counterspells, hand control and hard to remove creatures they will be packing. I think this match up is going to be best by resolving our creature earlyer (delver/Swiftspear) and hoping to get in the first couple of turns around 5-10 damage to finish the rest off with burn or a late game bedlam reveler.
Sultai Delver will be a game of not over extending ourselves to have a Maelstrom pulse blow out our swiftspears on board, and we can probably get rid of some counterspells as we cannot touch Abrupt Decay. and remanding a fatal push or path to exile will not do us alot. Bringing in indestructible cards like Boros Charm will be strong against this.
I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
This is a great post Rafiq and a great topic to talk about. We really need to make sure we are prepared for the new tempo/midrange builds that the new push spell will create.
I think your spot on with your analysis. I agree that esper will probably be our hardest matchup with hand disruption, lingering souls, and possibly liliana of the veil. I do think esper delver will be a great deck.
I think you're right that We will have to make sure we play to our advantages. We are the fastest delver deck and have the most pressure. I LOVE playing against control decks and have typically done very well against them. I have only played against Tricia delver a handful of times but found the matchups to be fairly favored for us given that vapor snag is a house against them.
I am going to try to put together several lists from the forums if the different styles and test against them so I can have some real data.
...I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
I don't want to rain on your parade but just to bring a point, the issue with Jeskai Delver has never been its answers or its sideboard, but its threats... you can't ignore the advantage Grixis and Temur have with their threats, namely Tasigur and Tarmogoyf/Mandrills, all of them pass the bolt test and all except tarmo pass the decay test, but tarmo makes up for that with extreme efficiency. Sadly, color white doesn't offer creatures of that caliber, the deck has to make up with either Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, Mantis Rider or Spell Queller (if I'm missing one please correct me), all but geist dying to both bolt and decay, but geist can be chump blocked easily... that's the reason I've been running Grixis rather than Jeskai for almost a year now, but I still keep up with the thread and hoping a new creature comes that makes Jeskai worth trying again, or that someone works a build that manages to win with the available creatures (I for one don't have the time to work that out, barely play modern once or twice a month these days). The only creature I've seen printed these days that can survive both bolt and decay, has cmc 2-3, and can be a real beater is Bedlam Reveler, but the issue with it is that it requires a more all-in and aggressive approach leaving us a bit vulnerable, and I haven't seen anyone pull results with him, but I still think that a Jeskai Delver deck with the reveler might be the best build for the current and coming metas, specially since Queller being the second best threat in my mind now will have to face also Fatal Push
Best of lucks to all Jeskai Delver players
Hi Ronyx! Good to see you are still around. Ronyx is one of the Original jeskai delver posters from way back in the day.
I do agree that jeskai has the weakest low CMC threats because white doesn't offer a great threat like green (golf) and black (tasigir/zombie fish). Tasigur is likely the single best threat given that he dodges most removal. Geist does a good job making up for that but does come with some draw backs.
The burn is the main attraction that keeps me in jeskai along with Geist and the great sideboard options. There is no replacing bolt-snap-bolt so that will always keep red in the running. It's the choice of the white/black splash that is tough. I prefer the speed and efficiency white affords instead of the power of black. There really is no argument now that grixis is the current top dog in delver land given its recent success and this new amazing removal spell. I can't fault anyone for playing it. With that said, I do think the jeskai delver variant will gain a lot of popularity when/if a player like Kevin Jones champions it.
I also agree with you that reveler is the best top end card for jeskai aggro/tempo right now. He is a house in midrange games and avoids almost all removal and inquisition. I have been very happy with him and I think most players would enjoy playing him at the top end if they have him a try. Have you ever tried him in Grixis?
This is a great post Rafiq. I think your spot on with your analysis. I agree that esper will probably be our hardest matchup with hand disruption, lingering souls, and possibly liliana of the veil. I do think esper delver will be a great deck.
I think you're right that We will have to make sure we play to our advantages. We are the fastest delver deck and have the most pressure. I LOVE playing against control decks and have typically done very well against them. I have only played against Tricia delver a handful of times but found the matchups to be fairly favored for us given that vapor snag is a house against them.
I am going to try to put together several lists from the forums if the different styles and test against them so I can have some real data.
As I am currently invested in trying to make a Esper deck for my Geist of Saint Traft I will do what I can to try and help devise some of these decks for testing for you. I do not hgave the card availability to build and test all of these myself personally but I like to brew. When i create something I can private message you the lists for your testing needs
I don't want to rain on your parade but just to bring a point, the issue with Jeskai Delver has never been its answers or its sideboard, but its threats... you can't ignore the advantage Grixis and Temur have with their threats, namely Tasigur and Tarmogoyf/Mandrills, all of them pass the bolt test and all except tarmo pass the decay test, but tarmo makes up for that with extreme efficiency. Sadly, color white doesn't offer creatures of that caliber, the deck has to make up with either Geist of Saint Traft, Monastery Mentor, Mantis Rider or Spell Queller (if I'm missing one please correct me), all but geist dying to both bolt and decay, but geist can be chump blocked easily... that's the reason I've been running Grixis rather than Jeskai for almost a year now, but I still keep up with the thread and hoping a new creature comes that makes Jeskai worth trying again, or that someone works a build that manages to win with the available creatures (I for one don't have the time to work that out, barely play modern once or twice a month these days). The only creature I've seen printed these days that can survive both bolt and decay, has cmc 2-3, and can be a real beater is Bedlam Reveler, but the issue with it is that it requires a more all-in and aggressive approach leaving us a bit vulnerable, and I haven't seen anyone pull results with him, but I still think that a Jeskai Delver deck with the reveler might be the best build for the current and coming metas, specially since Queller being the second best threat in my mind now will have to face also Fatal Push
Best of lucks to all Jeskai Delver players
You are correct but I would also say your are incorrect. We are very soft to removal as outside of Geist of Saint Traft or Brimaz everything we generally play dies to every removal in the format with Push just becoming another problem for us. The threats your referring to that Grixis or Temur or any version outside Jeskai has are threats that i classify as "Big Value" it is like tron, the creatures are stupid big and hard to deal with... outside of that they don't do much. Tarmagoyf... he is just hard to kill and can get bigger depending on card types but thats all.. big body, hard to remove... Hooting Mandril... Big ape that is hard to remove... Tasigur is the only real one with an ability in which depending what they Delve away you can give them spells that your not afraid of anymore so again just anoter big body. So you are correct we do not have that big body on the board, however our creatures are cheap to cast, efficient, and depending on build can threaten Lethal in a quicker time frame.
Passing the bolt test should never be the only reason to play a deck, you just need to build your deck so that even if you die to bolt the remainder of your deck can prevail. Grixis is a good example, Tasigur and Fish pass the bolt test so what is a solid option for us to do SB?? remove cards like Bolt or Helix and bring in more Counterspells, Bring in Vapor Snags.. If i can counter your Tasigur or Fish then you delved and got nothing to show but an empty GY and no value for any Snaps you run, If i vapor snag your fish or tasigur you again Delved and ended with nothing. If Jeskai ran all creatures that passed the bolt test then people could do the same to us, side out removal spells and bring in more control or board wipes.. because our creatures are still threatening and can threaten lethal they NEED to keep their removal spells in deck which means they have less slots that do enough against us. Grixis and probably the other variants that will arrive would like their opponent to be as non interactive as possible and by making their creatures hard to interact with they attain this to some degree.
@CurdBros Just recently traded one reveler and I'm going to see how it goes in Grixis Delver, swapping the single angler for it.
@RafiqEDH My bad... I'll have to admit that I missed your list some posts up. It pretty much is what I wuould run these days, except maybe for Pyromancer instead of Mentor... sweet indeed, too bad snapcaster couldn't fit, but the other creatures serve the aggressive strategy of the deck better... I will like very much to know how it goes for you
@CurdBros Just recently traded one reveler and I'm going to see how it goes in Grixis Delver, swapping the single angler for it.
@RafiqEDH My bad... I'll have to admit that I missed your list some posts up. It pretty much is what I wuould run these days, except maybe for Pyromancer instead of Mentor... sweet indeed, too bad snapcaster couldn't fit, but the other creatures serve the aggressive strategy of the deck better... I will like very much to know how it goes for you
That sounds really sweet Ronyx. Your opponents will probably flip the table when you play a reveler for 2 CMC in turn 4 after playing you hand out, the. Draw a tasigur and play 7 power and 9 toughness for 3 mana 😃. I really hope reveler works in your grixis build.
4x delver of secrets
4x snapcaster mage
4x young pyromancer
4x monastery mentor
2x bedlam reveler
4x lightning bolt
4x lightning helix
1x path to exile
2x vapor snag
4x mutagenic growth
4x gitaxian probe
4x serum visions
19 lands
4x lightning helix
2x path to exile
4x vapor snag
4x mutagenic growth
3x gitaxian probe
4x serum visions
4x snapcaster mage
3x young pyromancer
3x monastery mentor
2x Geist of saint traft
Here's another attempt at a more tempo control list I want to build. It's at 19 lands right now. Again any comments or suggestions are welcome
Based on my experience spell pierce in the main is hurting the consistency of the deck. Also, I'd suggest cutting a land and adding a basic plains, it does come in handy in many situations. Lastly, I believe Snags are better in the mainboard and Snapcaster Mage is a hell of a card to omit even as a 2-of.
Please tell me that Ascendancy works, I ******* love that card!
Hope the above help! (Also siding in mentors against infect, why? )
delver + yp/mm builds do exist but usually not together.
as a general guideline, yp/mm builds are semi control (aka tempo) builds that tries to go
i) early aggro
ii) disruption (lightning bolt, vapor snag, light counter magic like remand)
iii) close the game with burn or mid game drop like mm.
fundamentally, you need gas to power mm as a mid game drop. cantrips like serum visions, remand and gitaxian probe helps. it is not unheard of to use snapcaster mage to power up cantrips in the graveyard to keep the handsize healthy.
why is mm preferred than yp?
prowess. and the tokens has prowess. for just 1 mana more you get tonnes of extra value compared to yp.
monk tokens are also harder to block because the prowess triggers can threaten a blow out.
early drops for jeskai tempo/prowess decks are usually monastery swiftspear / delver anyways to leave the other 1/2 mana open for tempo spells. so a turn 4-5 mentor drop is fine as any disruption coming your way will result in some reaction from you (creation of monk tokens) if/before mm would die.
as a general guide, the creature template for mm builds looks like this:
4 snapcaster mage
4 delver of secrets
4 monastery swiftspear
2-3 monastery mentor
at least 25 instants/sorceries
18-20 lands
i have tinkered with yp in jeskai shells but just didn't feel right for me. the 1/1 tokens just didn't do enough for me.
i proxied up mms recently and they feel much better.
between geist and mm, imho i would go mm simply because of prowess. it encourages me to be aggressive. geist is just feels bad when i am encouraged to attack for the 4/4 angel but good chance will lose geist to a blocker that i might not be able to remove. or i may able to remove after combat damage dealt, but it will be a 2 for 1 on my part which is card disadvantage.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Welcome to the topic and to MTG Salvation. You have found one of the most active topics with some really great guys and gals. We are glad to have you. It's really great seeing a number of new posters lke crssherman1990, mtToulis, and yourself.
Now back to the deck. I am a huge fan of Abbot of Keral Keep. It's actually probably my favorite card printed ever. I have played him in the deck in the past, but I don't have room for him right now. I may have to give him another look. I am looking forward to hearing how he does for you. I am also a huge fan of Saheeli so her interaction with abbot is really nice. I have been looking for a sideboard card against jund and abzan and abbot may be the card I am looking for. Thank you for reminding me.
The deck looks awesome to me. Here are the only questions I have:
How often are the spell pierces good for you? I often prefer to have a dedicated counter suite (4-6 counters) or non at all in the main deck. Spell pierce is my current favorite counter spells, but seem a little out of place. However, I haven't tested your build.
What are the ascendancies for in the sideboard?
I really like your take on the deck and look forward to your input in the future.
On the topic of delver and young pyromancer, I think it's always important to make sure we are asking ourselves what we are trying to accomplish with the deck? With delver and young pyromancer, the only way they truly fit together is in a more pure tempo based deck including a higher number of counter spells. That way you gain value off of both of their abilities. Flash creatures would fit well in this style of deck.
If your goal is to be slightly more aggressive with delver in game one, young pyro often doesn't fit as well. Monastery Mentor oftens plays a more aggressive role better because of the prowess and prowess tokens.
If your goal is to overwhelm the board while controlling the game action, you could run both young pyromancer and monastery mentor together with a large number of disruption and removal spells.
There are so many ways to build the creatures base in a prowess deck but we always have to make sure each creature in the deck plays towards the same goal and that the spells we chose to pair with them help us reach that goal.
Because I like an aggro-control style deck I prefer delver, swiftspear, snap, geist, and revelor. Young Pyro and mentor didn't fit my preferred style because I don't have a critical mass of phyrexian spells in my deck. I'm not saying this is the correct approach (I don't think there is a right or wrong approach), it's just what worked for my preference and end goal. My goal was to utilize tempo/protection/unblockability to kill the opponent with efficient threats. As I sad above, I really wanted Abbot of Keral Keep to work in my maindeck, but it simply didn't fit. I want to start the game very aggressively on the back of a threat and then protect that threat. Abbot was really tough to play on turn 2 and therefore didn't match that philosophy. The same went for young pyromancer. She didn't gain enough from my unblockable spells and early aggression to warrant inclusion.
I feel like Monastery Mentor is a true odd man out. He can really fit in just about any jeskai delver deck. He can kill quickly with a lot of spells and can draw game out. His only weakness is matchup dependant. He is weak to removal, but I do think he pretty much fits in any jeskai prowess list.
Now onto another topic........Aethor Revolt Spoilers!!!!
It looks like the expertise cycle is a real thing. We already got the white expertise spell and it doesn't really fit our deck, but I am super excited about the blue and the red expertise spells for jeskai prowess. It appears as though they may all be 4 CMC spells and so far they have all dealt with 3 in their text (-3/-3 and 3 servos). What to you think they will be? Here is my crack at it.
Red (Advika's) Expertise 2RR
Sorcery
Deal 3 damage divided any way you choose to target creatures or players.
You may cast a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying it's mana cost.
Blue (Bahral's) Expertse 2UU
Instant
Choose one
-Counter target spell with converted mana cost of 3 or less.
-Return target creature you don't control with a converted mana cost 3 or less to it's owner's hand.
You may cast a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying it's mana cost.
Maybe I am being to conservative with my design, but I would definitely test the red one. There have been some great cards spoiled so far so I am very optimistic about this set.
Here is a note from a great game I played the other night.
I was playing against abzan. The opponent was at 8 life, but had turned the corner on the game and had 4 soul tokens (from lingering souls) and a grim flayer with delirium. I was at 8 life and had a snapcaster mage in hand. We were both top decking and it was the end of his turn. I snapcaster helixed him to avoid lethal on his next turn putting him to 5 life. I drew a serum visions and cast it drawing a slip through space. I slip through space my snapcaster mage and drew a vapor snag. I attacked him down to 3, vapor snaged my snapcaster and cast snapcaster bolt for the win. It was one of the craziest ways i have won a game in a long time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IGRgFKvVf0&index=1&list=PL04lbfeNAaS9jpLOXTDo6lwWYv5Z8hOLL
Sideboard is a little different than what Jim Davis brought a month ago. I wanted to hear his thoughts at the end of the video and he basically says that the deck feels like it is missing something. He says the Goblin Guides and Vapor Snags are the awkward parts of the deck but the rest of the deck feels good outside of Mantis Rider getting bolted.
I have the exact same thought, the blue expertise is really useless to us.. makes me kind of sad but im not entierly surprised being this set is focused on artifacts and the only artifact related expertise is the white one with servo tokens.. Hopefully the red gives us something better.
As for Baral, Chief of Compliance seeing this card is deffinatley more of a counter deck but my immediate thought for him is that it may mean we get more counter spells in this set, there isn't very many in standard at the moment (I could be wrong) so adding a card that is focused on counter magic leads me to believe we may see a few more aside from the Disallow that was spoiled earlier. Hopefully there will be some 1U counters and not just 1Ux.
On the topic of decks, I have decided to need to make 2 different decks. 1 Deck focused on my Geist of Saint Traft and 1 Aggro deck using the Prowess. Latley I have found that Delver is not flipping very well for me since adding the UW enchantment back into my deck which lowered my instant/Sorcery count down to 25 which statistically 25 - 27 instant/sorcery should never make a large discrepancy. It is nice having the early game threat for the deck almost like Grixis Delver was running, the problem being was their creatures are usually 4x Delver, 4x Snap, 3x Tasigur, 1x Fish, thanks to Delve they can play their threats more efficiently then I can with my Geist and Angels... So I think Delver comes out... but it means I get to build a new list for him, from scratch. Here is what I think I will be building (barring any other spoilers from the new set) let me know your thoughts.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Bedlam Reveler
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Slip Through Space
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
4 Mutagenic Growth
Land
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Plains
Thanks JDeezy,
I did catch this originally, but had it on in the background and didn't get to watch it much. I never went back to watch it. I tend to agree that the "burn/super aggro" lists seem to be missing something. I think the lack of any other game plan or real value really leaves this style deck at the whim of it's opening hand and 1st and 2nd draws of the game. Basically if everything goes to plan and the opponent doesn't have much removal than it's great, but if you stumble a little it's almost impossible to switch gears or adapt to a bad matchup. It is the fastest version of a jeskai prowess deck, but I just don't personally think goblin guide and mantis rider really fit what I think prowess does best. I feel like adding mentor to this style of list really helps with its fatal flaw. It gives you a late game threat that can help you get back into games and gives some type of value or pseudo card advantage. That's just my opinion though. Bedlam Reveler adds to the deck in a similar way.
I almost look at prowess as a plus, not really a definitive part of the deck.
Rafiq- I have thought of running two decks in the past as well. I just never thought I have enough time for two decks. I can barely keep up with one :). I would like to have a second deck that is based more around prowess with Abbot of Keral Keep and Monastery Mentor. I think my new years resolution will to be make a second jeskai prowess list. I have put a lot of time into my first list and am very happy with where it is at so why not try another style.
Aethor Revolt- With the release of the new black push spell Grixis Delver will see a huge upswing in meta percentage. This could be a bad thing for us because people will be prepared for delver decks. In addition, I think the modern meta will almost certainly slow down. I am interested to see how jeskai delver will fit in. We are a very different deck than grixis so the meta switch could be a very good thing as we attack from a different angle and have a lot of direct damage. I forsee Geist being very good if the meta slows down. We will see.
I hear ya on this, I however already have a 2nd Modern deck (which rarley ever looses) and I have 2 brews that I am working on as well. Since i play with the same group of players i like having something different to play with from time to time. My biggest reason for this deck from me (i never planned to make it till now) is because when i was building for the Jeskai Prowess/Aggro and using Geist I just found that the deck wasn't where I wanted to be with Geist of Saint Traft... Sure it puts up numbers, and does what it was designed to do however it just wasn't what I was looking for my Geist shell. I do however like the shell as a whole and still want to play with it as it is, I like Delver and Swiftspear and I think that Mentor is a great top end. This second deck is designed solely on the Prowess ability and just being fast out of the gate which is why I have added no planeswalkers, and no Snapcaster mages.
As for my Geist of Saint Traft, he is going to be the "godhead" (Pun intended) of another the first deck... which in a nut shell is the same as what i was running previously but i am dropping the Delvers and making my list more of a control list with more counter spells and Celestial Colonnades... This deck may become an Esper variant however due to the new black removal spell being spoiled but that is not deffinative.. nor is it for this forum.
I do still agree with the style of list you run yourself Curdbros with Geist in it (it's why I came here in the first place) I just never could quite find the right niche for it as the deck didn't have enough protection for Geist and so he wasn't doing what i wanted, when i started shifting gears to add the protection via Angels, Cryptic etc, i lost some value i gained from the remainder of this shell. But i also do not want to leave this forum as I said above i love this tempo/aggro style and I need to add one to my arsenal of decks and Jeskai colors are amazing so I am here to stay but will just be using a different tune of deck
Your always welcome here. I love this deck and am a bit stubborn so I will always have this deck sleeved up and be here to tak jeskai delver/tempo.
I assume a few people will at least give grixis a try with the new push removal spell and that's totally cool. The more delver players the better! Grixis delved/tempo and jeskai delver/tempo are completely different decks so I don't think it will eat into the jeskai deck too much. Hopefully this will give more people confidence in delver and tempo decks and they will give jeskai a try.
I am excited to see how the meta moves. I think it will slow down a bit and will diversify into more of a rock,paper,scissor style meta with aggro, midrange, and control decks. If this does happen that would be awesome news because a wide open meta is where delver tempo decks fit the best.
I am super excited for the jeskai prowess deck in a post AER world.
Sultai Delver has its own strengths being Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, both powerful non-land permanent removals that both Grixis, Jeskai and Esper kind of lack mainboard.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I personally just can't get away from jeskai. I think the direct damage that bolt, helix, Boris charm, electrolyze, etc offer just can't be matched by other delver variants in terms of raw power and synergy with delver.
Tasigur, abrupt decay, thiughtseize, and such allow a player to play a more controlling strategy in the tempo or delver variant which could be more suitable to some players. I prefer a slightly more aggressive take on tempo to take advantage of spells like remand, vapor snag, boros charm, etc so red is a must for me. Also swiftspear is tough to pass up.
If you do like more control I bet there will be a very cool esper Geist/mentor tempo list. It's always great getting new goodies that open up brewing opportunities in modern. I still think jeskai is the best shard for delver tempo, but there will definitely be competitive esper, grixis, and sultai versions of the deck now. The only one I think that really loses out is maybe temur.
Jeskai for life! 😃
Jeskai Delver: Tempo/Aggro
- This is the most aggressive deck, running more 1 drop creatures that pump and has reach in the form of burn, we can become a burn deck if needed and can hold back in other situations to turn the corner at optimal time
- Probably the most intricate of any versions as it does require us to be more careful in what we do choose to counter, more calculations involved on weather a burn spell is best spent on a creature or to the face for damage all while keeping our threats alive to push through.
Sultai Delver: Midrange/Value
- This version falls into the Midrange/Value catagory as it will probably focus less on counterspells and more on resolving larger threats like Tarmagoyf, Tasigur etc and gaining most of it's tempo from hand manipulation.
- Will have a large array of removal spells from single target to board wipes and permanent removal. May potentially be packing Collected Company. Also a new instant spell 2CMC that makes their creatures hexproof and indestructible will make removing threats difficult.
Esper Delver: Tempo/Control
- This shell will be the most controlling packing multiple counterspells, hand disruption and exile effect. threats to watch would be Tasigur, Geist of Saint Traft and Monastery Mentor.
- This will also have access to more hand disruption in the form of Tidehallow Sculler, and creature based counters like Spell Queller or Reflector Mage bouncing. Compared to Jeskai who has these options as well this deck will play more to the late game and utalize these more.. Might even see more ETB style of Delver with flickers.
Grixis Delver: Control/Midrange
- We all know these lists, they pack reach as we do, creature removal, hand disruption and plan for a Tasigur threat resolving. This deck will not win in the early game but plans to just remove your threats instead of countering them.
- Has a minor combo with Snapcaster / K-command.
So, now that we have each one broken down into where they should fit (please feel free to correct me if my assesment is incorrect) we need to have a way to win against these decks. I personally believe we have a strong advantage with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, however our biggest issue will be dealing with Tasigur and Tarmagoyf. We have ways of dealing with them now but if their pressence is going to increase we may need more then just a Path to Exile and Vapor Snag. This could mean we sideboard in more counterspells, deflecting palms etc, Geist of Saint Traft will also remain a strong threat as only a Board wipe can get rid of him outside of blocking.
Esper Delver if created correctly I think will be the most challenging for us due to the mass amounts of counterspells, hand control and hard to remove creatures they will be packing. I think this match up is going to be best by resolving our creature earlyer (delver/Swiftspear) and hoping to get in the first couple of turns around 5-10 damage to finish the rest off with burn or a late game bedlam reveler.
Sultai Delver will be a game of not over extending ourselves to have a Maelstrom pulse blow out our swiftspears on board, and we can probably get rid of some counterspells as we cannot touch Abrupt Decay. and remanding a fatal push or path to exile will not do us alot. Bringing in indestructible cards like Boros Charm will be strong against this.
I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
Best of lucks to all Jeskai Delver players
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
This is a great post Rafiq and a great topic to talk about. We really need to make sure we are prepared for the new tempo/midrange builds that the new push spell will create.
I think your spot on with your analysis. I agree that esper will probably be our hardest matchup with hand disruption, lingering souls, and possibly liliana of the veil. I do think esper delver will be a great deck.
I think you're right that We will have to make sure we play to our advantages. We are the fastest delver deck and have the most pressure. I LOVE playing against control decks and have typically done very well against them. I have only played against Tricia delver a handful of times but found the matchups to be fairly favored for us given that vapor snag is a house against them.
I am going to try to put together several lists from the forums if the different styles and test against them so I can have some real data.
Hi Ronyx! Good to see you are still around. Ronyx is one of the Original jeskai delver posters from way back in the day.
I do agree that jeskai has the weakest low CMC threats because white doesn't offer a great threat like green (golf) and black (tasigir/zombie fish). Tasigur is likely the single best threat given that he dodges most removal. Geist does a good job making up for that but does come with some draw backs.
The burn is the main attraction that keeps me in jeskai along with Geist and the great sideboard options. There is no replacing bolt-snap-bolt so that will always keep red in the running. It's the choice of the white/black splash that is tough. I prefer the speed and efficiency white affords instead of the power of black. There really is no argument now that grixis is the current top dog in delver land given its recent success and this new amazing removal spell. I can't fault anyone for playing it. With that said, I do think the jeskai delver variant will gain a lot of popularity when/if a player like Kevin Jones champions it.
I also agree with you that reveler is the best top end card for jeskai aggro/tempo right now. He is a house in midrange games and avoids almost all removal and inquisition. I have been very happy with him and I think most players would enjoy playing him at the top end if they have him a try. Have you ever tried him in Grixis?
As I am currently invested in trying to make a Esper deck for my Geist of Saint Traft I will do what I can to try and help devise some of these decks for testing for you. I do not hgave the card availability to build and test all of these myself personally but I like to brew. When i create something I can private message you the lists for your testing needs
You are correct but I would also say your are incorrect. We are very soft to removal as outside of Geist of Saint Traft or Brimaz everything we generally play dies to every removal in the format with Push just becoming another problem for us. The threats your referring to that Grixis or Temur or any version outside Jeskai has are threats that i classify as "Big Value" it is like tron, the creatures are stupid big and hard to deal with... outside of that they don't do much. Tarmagoyf... he is just hard to kill and can get bigger depending on card types but thats all.. big body, hard to remove... Hooting Mandril... Big ape that is hard to remove... Tasigur is the only real one with an ability in which depending what they Delve away you can give them spells that your not afraid of anymore so again just anoter big body. So you are correct we do not have that big body on the board, however our creatures are cheap to cast, efficient, and depending on build can threaten Lethal in a quicker time frame.
Passing the bolt test should never be the only reason to play a deck, you just need to build your deck so that even if you die to bolt the remainder of your deck can prevail. Grixis is a good example, Tasigur and Fish pass the bolt test so what is a solid option for us to do SB?? remove cards like Bolt or Helix and bring in more Counterspells, Bring in Vapor Snags.. If i can counter your Tasigur or Fish then you delved and got nothing to show but an empty GY and no value for any Snaps you run, If i vapor snag your fish or tasigur you again Delved and ended with nothing. If Jeskai ran all creatures that passed the bolt test then people could do the same to us, side out removal spells and bring in more control or board wipes.. because our creatures are still threatening and can threaten lethal they NEED to keep their removal spells in deck which means they have less slots that do enough against us. Grixis and probably the other variants that will arrive would like their opponent to be as non interactive as possible and by making their creatures hard to interact with they attain this to some degree.
We also get a mini Geist! I will post pics asap
I sooo badly want to steal someone's goyf, attack with it then play perilous research and sac their golf to draw two cards!
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/karizevsexpertise.jpg
Sorry I couldn't do pics, I'm on my phone. If someone else can post them that would be great.
@RafiqEDH My bad... I'll have to admit that I missed your list some posts up. It pretty much is what I wuould run these days, except maybe for Pyromancer instead of Mentor... sweet indeed, too bad snapcaster couldn't fit, but the other creatures serve the aggressive strategy of the deck better... I will like very much to know how it goes for you
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
That sounds really sweet Ronyx. Your opponents will probably flip the table when you play a reveler for 2 CMC in turn 4 after playing you hand out, the. Draw a tasigur and play 7 power and 9 toughness for 3 mana 😃. I really hope reveler works in your grixis build.
Feels like they were made for tempo decks