I wanted to update everyone who is questioning utilizing Abbot of Keral Keep. This card is the real deal. I would suggest a two of and he is much more powerful with a Serum Vision and/or Telling Time affect. I will be posting some testing notes with in game actions with Abott of Keral Keep (I think people might start calling him AOK in the future for short).
If your thinking about playing the card then give it a try. You won't be disappointed in the right deck.
That is a great question. My brother and I actually talked about that a couple of days ago. I think (and I am not a rules expert) that if you flip a Ancestral Vision off of Abbot of Keral Keep it is just as if you drew the card. Therefore, you can cast it with suspend counters on it. I don't think it acts as cascade does because cascade says you can cast the card without paying it's mana cost, whereas Abbot says you can cast the card for the remainder of the turn (by paying the mana cost).
I for one, would like to see Ancestral Vision get unbanned. I didn't play with it during the standard days so I am not fully aware of it's power level, but I think it would help control and tempo decks compete with combo and midrange decks. I have tested with it in the past in this style deck with Fury Charm in order to cast the Vision a bit sooner.
If there are any judges/rules experts please let me know if I understand the Abbot/Vision interaction correctly.
Also if anyone has tested/played with Ancestral Vision let me know what you think of the card in a Jeskai Prowess style deck.
Another topic to discuss about our deck is the new mulligan rule. If you haven't heard about the new rule it is basically as follows:
If you mulligan you get to scry 1 card before starting the game. Scrying is simply looking at the top card of the deck and deciding whether you want to keep it there or put it on the bottom of your library. I assume most of you know this, but just wanted to be thorough.
Delver decks are especially benefited by the new rule because this gives us additional information about flipping our delvers. In addition, low curve decks with a low mana count are also benefited because we can more often keep a 1 land hand and are able to dig a little deeper to find our second land. All in all this rule should benefit the Jeskai Prowess Unblockable deck greatly. Especially the delver builds like mine.
Let us know what you think of the new rule in terms of affecting our deck. Do you think it helps us and do you think it will stick. Try to keep the discussion to how it effects this deck in particular as there is already a thread to discuss the rule in general.
That is a great question. My brother and I actually talked about that a couple of days ago. I think (and I am not a rules expert) that if you flip a Ancestral Vision off of Abbot of Keral Keep it is just as if you drew the card. Therefore, you can cast it with suspend counters on it. I don't think it acts as cascade does because cascade says you can cast the card without paying it's mana cost, whereas Abbot says you can cast the card for the remainder of the turn (by paying the mana cost)...
True, guess the only "confusing" part would be can you suspend a card that's not in your hand?
That's another great point. To be completely honest I'm not totally sure. That's just what we came up with in our conversation. I could be totally wrong. It is a confusing interaction and a unique one. If you do get an answer from a more educated party than myself, let us know. I will see if I can get my local judge to go over it with me next time I see him.
Also Tezzeret control sounds like a really cool deck (in your sig). I have a feeling the jeskai prowess deck would have a tough time beating that one. Is your list posted anywhere?
Just finished last night assembling a modified copy of the list on the first post. Going to be having a friend test it this Thursday while I continue to see if my Boros can keep winning me some prize pool... LOL But I will be keeping a close eye on his games when I can and he likely will chime in too. Without Abbots at the disposal yet Probes are at 4 and Swiftspear is at 4. This is a burn and Twin heavy meta of late so we'll see how those match ups or if any other ones pop up.
Also Tezzeret control sounds like a really cool deck (in your sig). I have a feeling the jeskai prowess deck would have a tough time beating that one. Is your list posted anywhere?
After playing with Telling Time a bit more I think some of you are right. It has played well, but there are probably better options out there for the deck. I am currently toying with adding a Monastery Mentor, Vapor Snag, Perilous Resarch, Seeker of the Way and any other cards you all suggest.
Perilous Research is a card the I have been trying to play for a long time now. I like that you can attack and sac a creature for it if they block or use it smooth out any land floods. I don't think I have given it enough of a chance, but would love to hear what you guys/gals think of the card.
My brother has been trying to talk me into playing Vapor Snag forever. I always trust your judgement so I will be giving a vapor snag or two a try this week.
Perilous Research does work better in a token deck or artifact deck, but it can be utilized in many decks because you can sack a creature during combat and/or sack an extra land. With that said, I think your right in saying it isn't the card we are looking for.
This deck looks awesome. Definitely on the aggro end of the spectrum. I like that the sideboard as well. After quickly killing them in game one you can switch into a more tempo build with spell snare, dispel, and blood moon if need be or you can go even more aggressive with mutagenic growth, pillar, and forked bolt to destroy combo and/or small creature oriented aggro builds. This looks super competitive. I'm not sure you need the Telling Time, but I like the card too. It may be better to have a one of electrolyze to clear the way versus token decks, draw a card, and offer burn damage if necessary.
For the aggro end of the spectrum, I don't think you can get much better. Well done.
It at first he was keeping Stikes out but a little convincing and he shifted numbers. Also befor only had one Snag but 4 Rift Bolts, which don't kill enough things when you can simple bounce their blocker or attacker while only having to keep one U open for Snag, Spell Pierce, or other 1 cost stuff.
I think you right cutting a rift bolt. I haven't played with the card a ton, but never loved it when I did test with it. I really don't think I can make any suggestions for this deck. It looks basically perfect as it is. The deck looks like a fun deck to play and I will definitely bring it to testing/FNM at some point soon.
Yeah, Rift Bolt is too active a card when we want reactive cards. Even the aggro game plan should be playing reactive spells at an active pace. In my BDW it's good until Abbot comes out as it actively puts pressure on you opponent and can give you a constant use of your lands. Many times you can pick first or second main phase as a mean to make your opponent focus on it before and during attack step, or post combat for them to try to play around on their turn.
However... That's not what you want in. This deck. You want creatures to get in damage untouched, mana open for protecting spell for those attackers, and leave mana open for the counter spell here or there.
Prowess Unblockable also won't want targets that can't be played off of Abbot of Kerrel Keep. Suspend only works from hand, and waiting till you have 5 mana just incase you flip a Rift Bolt isn't worth it. Concerning Abbot actually! The mana-base. Maybe Mana Confluences wouldn't be a bad idea... For those turn 3-4 plays when you aren't sure if you are going to need R, W, or U.
I had a Mana Confluence in the original build. I think you might be right. I will give that one another try. Often my life total doesn't matter a ton, especially in game one so fixing my mana is more important.
I also think you right that Send to Sleep is being underrated right now. Especially for tempo builds. I could see this as a one or two of in most tempo builds to help get the final 4-5 points of damage across or just to save some life by tapping down attackers.
I think it's gonna add up to a lot more than the final 4-5 damage. Like Detain you are effectively removing the target for two turns, so either their attack and then having an open attack of your own or just straight doubling up on attack phases.
So at this point with a fairly solid list together after dropping a few things like Shu-Yun, Telling Time, and maybe some other stragglers... The best idea is to go back through all the match ups and game reports and see what are solidified as major one card threats to the deck! A well times Pyroclasm can stop the whole show, which is why we have Emerge Unscathed and not just for attacking through one color at a time.
There will be some cards that might almost demand to be explored and question the risks of warping the deck around. AKA Abbot of Keral Keep and cards like Hammerhand that can give us three things all at once! Cause a 4/3 haste that tapped an enemy blocker might stand up to some specific standard.
I think it's gonna add up to a lot more than the final 4-5 damage. Like Detain you are effectively removing the target for two turns, so either their attack and then having an open attack of your own or just straight doubling up on attack phases.
So at this point with a fairly solid list together after dropping a few things like Shu-Yun, Telling Time, and maybe some other stragglers... The best idea is to go back through all the match ups and game reports and see what are solidified as major one card threats to the deck! A well times Pyroclasm can stop the whole show, which is why we have Emerge Unscathed and not just for attacking through one color at a time.
There will be some cards that might almost demand to be explored and question the risks of warping the deck around. AKA Abbot of Keral Keep and cards like Hammerhand that can give us three things all at once! Cause a 4/3 haste that tapped an enemy blocker might stand up to some specific standard.
I totally agree with your assessment. Now that origins is out and we know what we will have for the next three months or so, it's time to really bang out some test games with our lists to see what works and what doesn't, what matchups are good, what matchups are bad, and how our sideboard can help us with the bad matchups. Although I disagree about removing Shu Yun, I think you are right that the lists are just about where we want them to be and it's time to really get some testing notes on here so people can see the strenghts and weakness of the deck.
I will be trying Send to Sleep in place of the third Remand to see how it performs. The Telling Time was dropped in favor of Boros Charm. Remind me I should never remove boros charm from my main deck. It has been great since I added it back in to the deck. I have never loved it in multiples, but it seems like every time I draw boros charm it is extremely useful that game (killing planeswalkers, double striking a huge creature, and/or saving the whole team). Boros Charm is never leaving the mainboard again :). I may have to run two copies, but in the past when I ran three in my WUR Delver deck, I always seemed to have them stuck in my hand. It is a card you never want two of in your hand.
The core of the deck is basically set with about 5-6 cards that can be interchangeable. For reference here is my current build:
Yeah focus on Abbot testing! I'm starting to adjust my Boros deck for Abbots. Two Rift Bolts are already out as well as a few more changes.
Nice! I would love to hear more about the deck when you get done testing/tweaking. I had a thought today about Magma Jet. I have never loved Magma Jet in modern, but I was wondering today if the scry would be useful in a deck with Abbot of Keral Keep. It's probably still not powerful enough, but was wondering how it would test.
I will definitely be testing thoroughly this week. I only got three games in last night, but will post when I get more notes to post.
I have completed enough testing with Abbot of Keral Keep to make some generalizations about him in this deck. So here goes:
Positive
- He is a GREAT source of card advantage. He gives card advantage approximately 60%-65% of the time on turn 3. If you cast him turn 4 or later it more like 75%-80% if played correctly.
- Even when he misses on the draw it's often helpful. In the late game when he hits a land I can't play or a counter spell it is often helpful because it digs past a useless land and gets an action spell.
- He is still effective when cast on turn two. Much like Monastery Swiftspear, I want him to do 5-8 damage. He offers this fairly easily. This makes him a must answer threat.
- His inclusion allows for the use of Cavern of Souls in the deck. He is a Human, unlike Kiln Fiend.
- He offers additional combat tricks. This is true of all prowess creatures, but it adds another creature that can wreak havoc on the opponents removal/blocking.
Negative
- He doesn't offer the "free wins" that Kiln Fiend offered the deck.
- 1 Toughness. This can be a problem, but prowess really helps with this.
- Is tougher to play as a two drop. This is a reach because a 2/1 prowess for two is just fine, but it does take a decision to make to play him as an early threat.
These are mostly straight forward, but are very important. I think the most simple thing that I have found about him is that he makes the deck more competitive; period. After testing I found that killing my opponent or dealing 20 damage has never been a problem. Therefore the extra damage offered by Kiln Fiend is negligible in most cases (not all cases). I have looked for many ways to add card advantage to the deck - Reforge The Soul, Perilous Research, Tormenting Voice, Scarscale Ritual and the list goes on. Abbot of Keral Keep offers this card advantage without adding an additional card to the deck. That's what I call value. This is not to say that Kiln Fiend isn't a great card in the deck, but Abbot fits better in my current version.
I think at this point it is a great time to differentiate the three different deck archetypes under the "Jeskai Way" or Jeskai Prowess Unblockable family of decks. All of the decks utilize the prowess mechanic in conjuction with protection and unblockability to attack from an angle that no other deck in modern can recreate. They just do it in a different way.
1. The first is tempo or aggro/control style build that is based on having a threat or two threats and then utilizing removal, disruption, and card advantage to close out the game. These style decks utilize a small number of counter spells and less "pump spells than the aggro versions. This deck includes a larger percentage of "value" creatures like Delver of Secrets, Abbot of Keral Keep, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique. This is most likely (depending on diversity of the meta) the most competitive version of the deck in a larger tournament due to the malleability of the deck with the sideboard. This deck can take be the aggressor or the controller depending on what is necessary for the matchup.
2. The second is the aggro or "all-in" version. This version utilizes a much larger percentage of pump spells, burn spells, and low drop creatures to end the game as quickly as possible. The signature cards in this deck include Kiln Fiend, Boros Charm, Mutagenic Growth, Manamorphose, and other burn/pump/double strike spells. This deck creatures a large double striking unblockable early threat to end the game before turn 4. This is the most singularly powerful version of the deck. In a short tournament this is probably the best bet. If you catch midrange/creature matchups you will walk right through them.
3. Last is the midrange version of the deck. This deck has not been touch on as much as the other two. The midrange version of the Jeskai Way deck includes Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, Brave the Elements, Haze of Rage and a larger percentage of disruption and deck manipulation spells. This version attacks on a wider scale and gains value periodically through the game through normal play rather than taking a proactive approach with a single threat. This has been the version with the least amount of actual testing so far. Therefore, I am not really positive about it's competitiveness. However, it looks like it might be the most fun to play.
All three of these style decks should be discussed here and all fall under the Jeskai Way philosophy of utilizing prowess, protection, and unblockability to kill the opponent. Just like the monks of the Jeskai Clan!
If your thinking about playing the card then give it a try. You won't be disappointed in the right deck.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
I for one, would like to see Ancestral Vision get unbanned. I didn't play with it during the standard days so I am not fully aware of it's power level, but I think it would help control and tempo decks compete with combo and midrange decks. I have tested with it in the past in this style deck with Fury Charm in order to cast the Vision a bit sooner.
If there are any judges/rules experts please let me know if I understand the Abbot/Vision interaction correctly.
Also if anyone has tested/played with Ancestral Vision let me know what you think of the card in a Jeskai Prowess style deck.
Thanks for posting such an interesting question.
If you mulligan you get to scry 1 card before starting the game. Scrying is simply looking at the top card of the deck and deciding whether you want to keep it there or put it on the bottom of your library. I assume most of you know this, but just wanted to be thorough.
Delver decks are especially benefited by the new rule because this gives us additional information about flipping our delvers. In addition, low curve decks with a low mana count are also benefited because we can more often keep a 1 land hand and are able to dig a little deeper to find our second land. All in all this rule should benefit the Jeskai Prowess Unblockable deck greatly. Especially the delver builds like mine.
Let us know what you think of the new rule in terms of affecting our deck. Do you think it helps us and do you think it will stick. Try to keep the discussion to how it effects this deck in particular as there is already a thread to discuss the rule in general.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Also Tezzeret control sounds like a really cool deck (in your sig). I have a feeling the jeskai prowess deck would have a tough time beating that one. Is your list posted anywhere?
I played wth Ancestral Visions during standard. It was fun but only because I ran a suspend focused deck.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Perilous Research is a card the I have been trying to play for a long time now. I like that you can attack and sac a creature for it if they block or use it smooth out any land floods. I don't think I have given it enough of a chance, but would love to hear what you guys/gals think of the card.
Perilous Research is not what you want with a permanent light deck either...
Vapor Snags are great ways to get Tasigur and Goyf off the board and keep our tempo up while setting them back.
Perilous Research does work better in a token deck or artifact deck, but it can be utilized in many decks because you can sack a creature during combat and/or sack an extra land. With that said, I think your right in saying it isn't the card we are looking for.
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Rift Bolt
2 Vapor Snag
4 Remand
1 Telling Time
2 Spell Pierce
3 Distortion Strike
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
5 Island
1 Mountain
Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Shatterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
This deck looks awesome. Definitely on the aggro end of the spectrum. I like that the sideboard as well. After quickly killing them in game one you can switch into a more tempo build with spell snare, dispel, and blood moon if need be or you can go even more aggressive with mutagenic growth, pillar, and forked bolt to destroy combo and/or small creature oriented aggro builds. This looks super competitive. I'm not sure you need the Telling Time, but I like the card too. It may be better to have a one of electrolyze to clear the way versus token decks, draw a card, and offer burn damage if necessary.
For the aggro end of the spectrum, I don't think you can get much better. Well done.
However... That's not what you want in. This deck. You want creatures to get in damage untouched, mana open for protecting spell for those attackers, and leave mana open for the counter spell here or there.
Prowess Unblockable also won't want targets that can't be played off of Abbot of Kerrel Keep. Suspend only works from hand, and waiting till you have 5 mana just incase you flip a Rift Bolt isn't worth it. Concerning Abbot actually! The mana-base. Maybe Mana Confluences wouldn't be a bad idea... For those turn 3-4 plays when you aren't sure if you are going to need R, W, or U.
I also think you right that Send to Sleep is being underrated right now. Especially for tempo builds. I could see this as a one or two of in most tempo builds to help get the final 4-5 points of damage across or just to save some life by tapping down attackers.
So at this point with a fairly solid list together after dropping a few things like Shu-Yun, Telling Time, and maybe some other stragglers... The best idea is to go back through all the match ups and game reports and see what are solidified as major one card threats to the deck! A well times Pyroclasm can stop the whole show, which is why we have Emerge Unscathed and not just for attacking through one color at a time.
There will be some cards that might almost demand to be explored and question the risks of warping the deck around. AKA Abbot of Keral Keep and cards like Hammerhand that can give us three things all at once! Cause a 4/3 haste that tapped an enemy blocker might stand up to some specific standard.
I totally agree with your assessment. Now that origins is out and we know what we will have for the next three months or so, it's time to really bang out some test games with our lists to see what works and what doesn't, what matchups are good, what matchups are bad, and how our sideboard can help us with the bad matchups. Although I disagree about removing Shu Yun, I think you are right that the lists are just about where we want them to be and it's time to really get some testing notes on here so people can see the strenghts and weakness of the deck.
I will be trying Send to Sleep in place of the third Remand to see how it performs. The Telling Time was dropped in favor of Boros Charm. Remind me I should never remove boros charm from my main deck. It has been great since I added it back in to the deck. I have never loved it in multiples, but it seems like every time I draw boros charm it is extremely useful that game (killing planeswalkers, double striking a huge creature, and/or saving the whole team). Boros Charm is never leaving the mainboard again :). I may have to run two copies, but in the past when I ran three in my WUR Delver deck, I always seemed to have them stuck in my hand. It is a card you never want two of in your hand.
The core of the deck is basically set with about 5-6 cards that can be interchangeable. For reference here is my current build:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Instant/Sorcery
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
3 Distortion Strike
2 Emerge Unscathed
2 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
1 Boros Charm
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Slayer’s Stronghold
1 Faerie Conclave
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear/Tear
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Rending Volley
1 Celestial Purge
2 Spellskite
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Path to Exile
Ideas I am currently testing for the main deck are cutting a Remand for a Spell Snare, Send to Sleep or Vapor Snag. Possibly cutting a Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest for the 4th Monastery Swiftspear. I am also going to concentrate on how often Abbot of Keral Keep successfully hits an additional card to make sure he offers enough value to warrant two main board slots.
As for the sideboard, I am going to test Mirran Crusader, Monastery Mentor, Sower of Temptation, and Valorous Stance. If Elves and other green decks continue to pick up I will be adding Hibernation back into the sideboard.
I will post my testing notes from this evening. I will be playing a number of games against grixis delver/grixis control.
Nice! I would love to hear more about the deck when you get done testing/tweaking. I had a thought today about Magma Jet. I have never loved Magma Jet in modern, but I was wondering today if the scry would be useful in a deck with Abbot of Keral Keep. It's probably still not powerful enough, but was wondering how it would test.
I will definitely be testing thoroughly this week. I only got three games in last night, but will post when I get more notes to post.
Positive
- He is a GREAT source of card advantage. He gives card advantage approximately 60%-65% of the time on turn 3. If you cast him turn 4 or later it more like 75%-80% if played correctly.
- Even when he misses on the draw it's often helpful. In the late game when he hits a land I can't play or a counter spell it is often helpful because it digs past a useless land and gets an action spell.
- He is still effective when cast on turn two. Much like Monastery Swiftspear, I want him to do 5-8 damage. He offers this fairly easily. This makes him a must answer threat.
- His inclusion allows for the use of Cavern of Souls in the deck. He is a Human, unlike Kiln Fiend.
- He offers additional combat tricks. This is true of all prowess creatures, but it adds another creature that can wreak havoc on the opponents removal/blocking.
Negative
- He doesn't offer the "free wins" that Kiln Fiend offered the deck.
- 1 Toughness. This can be a problem, but prowess really helps with this.
- Is tougher to play as a two drop. This is a reach because a 2/1 prowess for two is just fine, but it does take a decision to make to play him as an early threat.
These are mostly straight forward, but are very important. I think the most simple thing that I have found about him is that he makes the deck more competitive; period. After testing I found that killing my opponent or dealing 20 damage has never been a problem. Therefore the extra damage offered by Kiln Fiend is negligible in most cases (not all cases). I have looked for many ways to add card advantage to the deck - Reforge The Soul, Perilous Research, Tormenting Voice, Scarscale Ritual and the list goes on. Abbot of Keral Keep offers this card advantage without adding an additional card to the deck. That's what I call value. This is not to say that Kiln Fiend isn't a great card in the deck, but Abbot fits better in my current version.
I think at this point it is a great time to differentiate the three different deck archetypes under the "Jeskai Way" or Jeskai Prowess Unblockable family of decks. All of the decks utilize the prowess mechanic in conjuction with protection and unblockability to attack from an angle that no other deck in modern can recreate. They just do it in a different way.
1. The first is tempo or aggro/control style build that is based on having a threat or two threats and then utilizing removal, disruption, and card advantage to close out the game. These style decks utilize a small number of counter spells and less "pump spells than the aggro versions. This deck includes a larger percentage of "value" creatures like Delver of Secrets, Abbot of Keral Keep, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique. This is most likely (depending on diversity of the meta) the most competitive version of the deck in a larger tournament due to the malleability of the deck with the sideboard. This deck can take be the aggressor or the controller depending on what is necessary for the matchup.
2. The second is the aggro or "all-in" version. This version utilizes a much larger percentage of pump spells, burn spells, and low drop creatures to end the game as quickly as possible. The signature cards in this deck include Kiln Fiend, Boros Charm, Mutagenic Growth, Manamorphose, and other burn/pump/double strike spells. This deck creatures a large double striking unblockable early threat to end the game before turn 4. This is the most singularly powerful version of the deck. In a short tournament this is probably the best bet. If you catch midrange/creature matchups you will walk right through them.
3. Last is the midrange version of the deck. This deck has not been touch on as much as the other two. The midrange version of the Jeskai Way deck includes Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, Brave the Elements, Haze of Rage and a larger percentage of disruption and deck manipulation spells. This version attacks on a wider scale and gains value periodically through the game through normal play rather than taking a proactive approach with a single threat. This has been the version with the least amount of actual testing so far. Therefore, I am not really positive about it's competitiveness. However, it looks like it might be the most fun to play.
All three of these style decks should be discussed here and all fall under the Jeskai Way philosophy of utilizing prowess, protection, and unblockability to kill the opponent. Just like the monks of the Jeskai Clan!