Red Geist (Kari Zev) is kind of neat, she is harder to block due to her menace and first strike but the lack of hexproof makes her easier to remove, on the flip side her token is easy to block and only 1 toughness.. So I think this is like everything Geist isnt. Geist is easy to block but hard to remove, his token is hard to block they are opposites.. I like it but i do not know how much it will make it into the format, chump blocking the monkey and taking 1 from Kari is not all that exciting... If she had prowess... this would be fantastic.
We did get a couple other potential spells in Alley EvasionThis card can save our creatures from spot removal like we can with Vapor snag without taking a point of damage, or it can pump our threats, on a Prowess creature this is 1CMC +2/+3 pushing any of our prowess out of bolt range, on Geist they block with a 2power creature and now geist becomes a 3/4. I can see this becoming a 1 or 2 in the MB or in the SB.. Obviously Mutagenic is easier to cast being free but it hurts our life total.
Another card we got is Invigorated Rampage I think this will be more for the all in prowess/Aggro versions of the deck or ones utalizing Mentor as with this 1 spell we can make 2 mentor tokens into 4/2 with trample. Again i believe this will be a 1 or 2 most likely.
Greetings from planet Mardu. I still lurk on this thread constantly, just havent had anything to really contribute. I was reading over ErvaLife's list, and was ready to dismiss the inclusion of Saheeli as a pet card or budget option. Then I looked at your land base, noticing there's nothing budget about it, I paid more attention to what Saheeli does (Meaning I actually read the WHOLE card). The interaction with Abbot is awesome, so I started looking at possible other creature combos. Don't get me wrong, Delver is a fine card, and the evasion and haste of storm chaser are not worthless, but hear me out. Going in on the kiln fiend (disclaimer: personal pet card)/Temur battle rage plan sets you up for huge damage on turn 4, as well as getting massive value out of Young Pyromancer. I realize Saheeli is not plan A, but her value against Infect and Robots definitely pulls it's weight in this meta (rather like New Lily), and why not have creatures that synergize well? Obviously Thing is a no go, and a Delver copy would be a 1/1, but Mentor would work great. Nothing wrong with your list, and I'm not criticizing at all, your inclusion just got me thinking (read; brewing) and a lil excited.
K, that's all I got, and I've probably abused parentheses enough for today, (I <3 punctuation) so farewell.
I agree that Temur delver has lost alot of it's merits being as it is a worse version of Jund and Burn in 1 package. As for the other versions (not going to discuss their deck creation) I believe we can classify each version into their own catagories and in doing so we can work at ways that we can sideboard or even main board against these new threats as they appear.
Jeskai Delver: Tempo/Aggro
- This is the most aggressive deck, running more 1 drop creatures that pump and has reach in the form of burn, we can become a burn deck if needed and can hold back in other situations to turn the corner at optimal time
- Probably the most intricate of any versions as it does require us to be more careful in what we do choose to counter, more calculations involved on weather a burn spell is best spent on a creature or to the face for damage all while keeping our threats alive to push through.
Sultai Delver: Midrange/Value
- This version falls into the Midrange/Value catagory as it will probably focus less on counterspells and more on resolving larger threats like Tarmagoyf, Tasigur etc and gaining most of it's tempo from hand manipulation.
- Will have a large array of removal spells from single target to board wipes and permanent removal. May potentially be packing Collected Company. Also a new instant spell 2CMC that makes their creatures hexproof and indestructible will make removing threats difficult.
Esper Delver: Tempo/Control
- This shell will be the most controlling packing multiple counterspells, hand disruption and exile effect. threats to watch would be Tasigur, Geist of Saint Traft and Monastery Mentor.
- This will also have access to more hand disruption in the form of Tidehallow Sculler, and creature based counters like Spell Queller or Reflector Mage bouncing. Compared to Jeskai who has these options as well this deck will play more to the late game and utalize these more.. Might even see more ETB style of Delver with flickers.
Grixis Delver: Control/Midrange
- We all know these lists, they pack reach as we do, creature removal, hand disruption and plan for a Tasigur threat resolving. This deck will not win in the early game but plans to just remove your threats instead of countering them.
- Has a minor combo with Snapcaster / K-command.
So, now that we have each one broken down into where they should fit (please feel free to correct me if my assesment is incorrect) we need to have a way to win against these decks. I personally believe we have a strong advantage with Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, however our biggest issue will be dealing with Tasigur and Tarmagoyf. We have ways of dealing with them now but if their pressence is going to increase we may need more then just a Path to Exile and Vapor Snag. This could mean we sideboard in more counterspells, deflecting palms etc, Geist of Saint Traft will also remain a strong threat as only a Board wipe can get rid of him outside of blocking.
Esper Delver if created correctly I think will be the most challenging for us due to the mass amounts of counterspells, hand control and hard to remove creatures they will be packing. I think this match up is going to be best by resolving our creature earlyer (delver/Swiftspear) and hoping to get in the first couple of turns around 5-10 damage to finish the rest off with burn or a late game bedlam reveler.
Sultai Delver will be a game of not over extending ourselves to have a Maelstrom pulse blow out our swiftspears on board, and we can probably get rid of some counterspells as we cannot touch Abrupt Decay. and remanding a fatal push or path to exile will not do us alot. Bringing in indestructible cards like Boros Charm will be strong against this.
I believe we are still the strongest Delver variant out there just as Curdbros as mentioned above, we have the best answers to these threats and probably the strongest ability to sideboard. Now is the time we start getting ready for these cards to be brought in and having answers already created MB or SB to deal with these.
To add to this, with my personal experience with my Jeskai Delver list against Grixis, I believe we're favored (and probably against all of the other iterations, with the exception of Esper Delver) because besides the better reach that our colors provide (Helices, Boros Charms, Jeskai Charms and Deflecting Palms), cards like Stormchaser and/or Mentor are able to bypass and race them. From the games against Grixis the only games I've lost are because I couldn't find my white mana in 5-6 turns and having a bunch of paths and helices in my hand. We can pressure them with great effect on their end step, and Snagging their Tasigur or Fish is a big tempo loss for them.
The decks we need to watch out for are esper control lists and abzan, since they're the lists that can best utilize Fatal Push in combination with discards and Lingering Souls. Now, due to this I suppose we should adjust our lists to better fight in the mid/late game with cards like Mentor and Reveler, I don't think the counterspell way is suited for Jeskai.
Red Geist (Kari Zev) is kind of neat, she is harder to block due to her menace and first strike but the lack of hexproof makes her easier to remove, on the flip side her token is easy to block and only 1 toughness.. So I think this is like everything Geist isnt. Geist is easy to block but hard to remove, his token is hard to block they are opposites.. I like it but i do not know how much it will make it into the format, chump blocking the monkey and taking 1 from Kari is not all that exciting... If she had prowess... this would be fantastic.
We did get a couple other potential spells in Alley EvasionThis card can save our creatures from spot removal like we can with Vapor snag without taking a point of damage, or it can pump our threats, on a Prowess creature this is 1CMC +2/+3 pushing any of our prowess out of bolt range, on Geist they block with a 2power creature and now geist becomes a 3/4. I can see this becoming a 1 or 2 in the MB or in the SB.. Obviously Mutagenic is easier to cast being free but it hurts our life total.
Another card we got is Invigorated Rampage I think this will be more for the all in prowess/Aggro versions of the deck or ones utalizing Mentor as with this 1 spell we can make 2 mentor tokens into 4/2 with trample. Again i believe this will be a 1 or 2 most likely.
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Great calls. I ordered both of those cards after the spoiler. I really like the alley evasion. It has a ton of utility in our deck. The rampage thing is awesome and would fit into a kiln fiend version, but not my first deck. I did order it anyways just in case I switch to a kiln fiend version in the future.
I love seeing people look for hidden treasures for our deck. It's always a blast to brew!
I agree MrTzoulis. I don't think I have ever lost grixis delver. I do think we are favored.
I also agree the Abzan and Esper are going to be our toughest matchups in the future. I think reveler will really help and possibly the new kari zen expertise against the goyf decks. I plan on doing a testing session against against abzan/rock with the new push card as soon as I can find a list. I will let you all know how it goes and it the new expertise card works as a sideboard option. I really want to pair it with ancestral vision or perilous research but that's probably too greedy.
Good to hear from you Twinicus! Saheeli Rai has really impressed me this far. Her ping scry is great at any point and we have a ton of targets for her doubling ability in snapcaster, abbot, bedlam reveler, or even swiftspear or delver. I wish Geist wasn't legendary, I would LOVE to make a double Geist.
I want to play abbot so bad that I am probably going to make a second jeskai prowess deck with him. He is amazing with Saheeli Rai.
I also had an ideas last night if maybe playing Geist, Kari Sev, and her expertise with ancestral vision and perilous research. That way I could sac a token or the opponents creature to research do draw cards. Lots of brewing ideas with new cards 😃. Saheeli also works well with Kari Sev.
While we are in the Saheeli Rai subject, I hope everyone bought their copies already because she was just bought out. She is part of a turn 4 infinite combo that is splinter twinesque with felidar guardian.
I wish the guardian was an artifact so saheeli could get him with her ultimate. It will be interesting to see what type of jeskai decks try to take advantage of the combo. It doesn't fit into jeskai prowess but I will def be brewing.
While we are in the Saheeli Rai subject, I hope everyone bought their copies already because she was just bought out. She is part of a turn 4 infinite combo that is splinter twinesque with felidar guardian.
I wish the guardian was an artifact so saheeli could get him with her ultimate. It will be interesting to see what type of jeskai decks try to take advantage of the combo. It doesn't fit into jeskai prowess but I will def be brewing.
I saw Felidar Guardian and laughed (i was home in bed after 3 grueling sessions of EDH games). The combo is not as strong as the old Deciever Exarch and Splinter Twin combo but its a real thing.
Felidar Guardian with Restoration Angel is also a thing but you need a 3rd card like Outpost Siege, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Impact Tremors.
Invigorated Rampage is a reasonable pump spell. It could have gotten a Revolt trigger on it, letting it gain first strike! But we can't have anything. Hehehe!
Titi is also good as a blocker early on and interacts with the opponent by bouncing their board instead of trying to race them with lesd efficient threats like Stormchaser Mage/Mantis Rider and hope for the best.
The threats in "UR Prowess" are just much better at closing the game while not being any more vulnerable than those in the "Jeskai Aggro" deck and also having the better late game with Bedlam Reveler.
I just think it is the better deck between these two decks that operate very similarly and try to do the same.
Titi is also good as a blocker early on and interacts with the opponent by bouncing their board instead of trying to race them with less efficient threats like Stormchaser Mage/Mantis Rider and hope for the best.
The threats in "UR Prowess" are just much better at closing the game while not being any more vulnerable than those in the "Jeskai Aggro" deck and also having the better late game with Bedlam Reveler.
I just think it is the better deck between these two decks that operate very similarly and try to do the same.
I agree when it comes to the full aggro lists. This is another reason I am not a huge fan of the full aggro list with goblin guide, mantis rider, stormchaser, etc. I think burn and UR kiln fiend are better versions of that style of deck. The difference really comes down to the sideboard and removal. Kiln Fiend is played as a combo deck whereas jeskai prowess is played as an aggro control deck.
It really depends on if you are comparing the full 75 cards or the mainboards. UR Kiln Fiend will be a faster more version of a "prowess deck" because it is built to be all in on killing the opponent as quickly as possible. Most jeskai prowess lists can play as a tempo deck with a decent amount of counter magic and removal against aggro and midrange decks and can take a tempo or aggro/control role against control and big mand decks. Essentially jeskai prowess is a much more malleable deck, but is far less powerful in terms of raw power.
When it comes to the Jim Davis style list, I agree with you. I think the UR Kiln Fiend TITI list just plays a much better aggro game with slight disruption than the Davis Prowess list. I think that BBD also kind of came to that conclusion at the end. He said the deck just felt like it was missing something. In my opinion the deck plays much better as a tempo or aggro control list than it does as a pure aggro list. Like you said, having access to Bedlam Reveler in the late game (or Monastery Mentor) gives the deck another dimension that is sorely needed in my opinion. The hard part for aggro control is finding the perfect balance of being aggressive enough and having enough disruption and late game.
Onto another topic. I have been testing a Kari Sev's Expertise in my flex spot in my mainboard and an additional copy of it in my sideboard alsong with two copies of Ancestral Vision. It has been great against jund, abzan, and eldrazi. I used to run two copies of ancestral vision in my sideboard for the midrange matchups, but took them out because I thought they were a little slow unless you drew them on turn 1. However, with access to the expertise that takes a little of that worry away. So far, I have been pleasantly surprised. With deflecting palm and expertise in he deck the opponent is always off guard. I will keep you posted on how it goes because I haven't really played with it much, but I really hope it works out. Has anyone else tried Kari Sev's Expertise or Kari Sev yet? I am excited to brew a geist/baby geist list soon
Stormchaser, Mantis Rider, Delver, Monastery Swiftspear are played precicelly because they're efficient (Rider less so). TiTi, Kiln Fiend and the UR Prowess deck in general is set up as a combo deck, not a fast aggro deck that can pivot in the late game. Jeskai Aggro (Jim Davis' et.al. version) has the inherent problem of most all in aggro decks and that's why most lists you'll see posted here are shying away from that mold and ending up with Delver lists, including Revelers and/or Mentors in their lists and some have been trying Saheeli Rai(who I've been pleasantly surprised by).
Now given that my list is more aggressive than some, the prowess ability is what gives the deck the inherent resiliency to removals. Every spell you cast is +1 damage, which complicates combat for the opponents, giving you the ability to just chip in damage and hold your spells for utility. Further complicating things for our opponents is the amplification effect that burn spells have with prowess, with things getting out of hand quickly with a 2nd creature, in which the Jeskai colors have, simply put, the best.
As for the blocking capabilities of TiTi, why do they matter? Most of the times you're the aggressor and if the time comes that you need to block, you're either losing the ground battle (like in jund/junk) and your TiTi will be on chump duty or you're better off with, say, a Swiftspear blocking and bolting another creature or their face to end up with a 2 for 1.
Stormchaser, Mantis Rider, Delver, Monastery Swiftspear are played precicelly because they're efficient (Rider less so). TiTi, Kiln Fiend and the UR Prowess deck in general is set up as a combo deck, not a fast aggro deck that can pivot in the late game. Jeskai Aggro (Jim Davis' et.al. version) has the inherent problem of most all in aggro decks and that's why most lists you'll see posted here are shying away from that mold and ending up with Delver lists, including Revelers and/or Mentors in their lists and some have been trying Saheeli Rai(who I've been pleasantly surprised by).
Now given that my list is more aggressive than some, the prowess ability is what gives the deck the inherent resiliency to removals. Every spell you cast is +1 damage, which complicates combat for the opponents, giving you the ability to just chip in damage and hold your spells for utility. Further complicating things for our opponents is the amplification effect that burn spells have with prowess, with things getting out of hand quickly with a 2nd creature, in which the Jeskai colors have, simply put, the best.
As for the blocking capabilities of TiTi, why do they matter? Most of the times you're the aggressor and if the time comes that you need to block, you're either losing the ground battle (like in jund/junk) and your TiTi will be on chump duty or you're better off with, say, a Swiftspear blocking and bolting another creature or their face to end up with a 2 for 1.
Very well said. That's kind of what I was trying to get at. Most jeskai prowess decks are moving towards a better top end and more value. With that said, the early aggression is extremely important to our gameplan. I basically want to be as aggressive as I possibly can while maintaining enough disruption. I also run a fairly aggressive version of the deck with 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 7 burn spells, and three bounce spells. An early threat is extremely important to our game plan. I like to consider prowess an added benefit to the deck. I think the decks that try to "build around" prowess get to invested in just trying to trigger prowess and end up being to one dimensional.
I am very interested to see where the meta goes once fatal push has entered into the equation. I assume many of the more one dimensional aggro lists like burn, kiln fiend, and death shadow aggro will take a serious hit in meta share unless they really adjust. I also think affinity and infect will take a hit as well. With a slower meta Ancestral Vision gains value. I do think the new meta will be very well suited to an aggro/control or tempo build that can put early pressure on the opponent and disrupt the board while utilizing counter magic. I am very excited for modern's future and especially for our deck's place in the future meta.
^^
The deck looks pretty good and I think that mainboard Monastery Mentor (very powerful and great with Saheeli Rai) over Abbot of Keral Keep will be the better option.
Abbot is a pretty sub-par creature (I tried to make it work and it was dissapointing every time).
You can also go heavier into tokens with Young Pyromancer over Stormchaser Mage which is another creature which is just "ok" imho but not that great.
Hey all, so I have been teseting/building my Esper deck for my Geist and i got to face off against an interesting version of the Jeskai Mentor/Tokens build which ran some cards I have not seen here. Now disclaimer: I did win 2-1 against this deck, but i believe the information is valuable.
These card choices were definatley interesting and unexpected to say the least. Being that most every card required him to exile some sort of blue card from his hand in order to work properly once past the first few turns he ran out of gas.. However T1 disrupting Shoal exiling Sleight of Hand to counter a Thoughtseize or Inquisition was kind of spicy.
Fatal Push is the real deal against us, right now more deck i have seen are testing out just 2 of as they do not know how often the revolt trigger will happen consistently however most creatures to worry about are 2CMC or less anyway. Out of all the Jeskai Prowess, Jeskai Mentor etc decks i have faced they cannot seem to get past that extra removal that black will be packing, I know we can do it but it might mean a slight change in our deck layout. Adding Spell Pierce and Dispel MB may not be to terrible of an idea for us and potentially dropping Delver T2 instead so we have counter magic protection but this can open up the chance for him to be discarded, so we will need to be careful as to what we keep opening hands. Grixis, Esper, and Jund will become the bane of our existence and probably the hardest matches. with grixis a packing 12+ removal (in early testings) backed by 4-6 discard and 4+ counter spells they have been controlling the early game fairly easily. Jund is Jund but now they can control the early game more then before. As for Esper, I think all of these builds will be tough.. Draw-Go having Ancestral Visions, Esper Charm, Discards, board wipes, and the Midrange running Lingering Souls, Tasigur, 4-6 Removal, 4-6 Discard, and 4-6 Counters.
TL;DR (or was just all rambling) we need to plan for Midgame, Geist, Bedlam Reveler these will be game winners, as well as protection spells.
This definitely opens up some slots in everyone's deck. I don't think it hurts our deck too badly (like death shadow and kiln fiend), but it definitely stings a little. We are paying for the sins of the Death Shadow Aggro and Kiln Fiend deck. I feel for those players who lost their decks today, however, those decks were a bit to all in.
The good news is that we have some slots in our deck to have fun with. Here is a list of the things that we can try:
And probably lots of other cards. For those who are playing the aggro/control list who had already cut a couple of copies of probe, this news isn't too bad. Really for those who run a very prowess heavy list, you can probably add mutagenic growth (if your not already running 4) and a combination of peek/sleight of hand/or possibly others on the list. What are you guys/gals going to try first?
Those bans though. If you want something that does exactly what Probe does then Peek is your go to, the lesser value though that you have to pay for it with mana will hurt. Personally I believe the best card for us will be Ancestral Vision. It does not exactly trigger prowess when we want it which is a downside but I think the meta will be slowing down now. As mentioned above Deaths Shadow Aggro is going to get hurt hard, All-in Kiln Fiend decks will be hit but still survivable, Infect needs a replacement (not all important but helpful), Dredge is going to slow down again. WOTC is pushing the format more and more towards later games, they do not want consistent T3 kills, Ancestral Visions gives us just another way to fill our hands back up making us viable late game giving us more burn, more prowess triggers etc. The other card i see worth while is Faithless Looting. my problem with Mutagenic Growth, Distortion Strike, Expedite, Slip Through Space is all of these require a creature on board meaning they have potential to be a dead draw for us 1-2 ofs of things like these are great "gotcha" cards but a full playset i think is under utilized in our deck without going full prowess/aggro. Faithless Looting still allows us to dig deeper into our decks, puts more in the Graveyard for Snapcaster Potentially or smooths our mana. With a playset of these in the deck it is possible we could drop 1 or 2 lands because we have both serum and faithless allowing us to dig for them.
A card that wasn't mentioned above that we could potentially take advantage of is Noxious Revival, We can get back creatures, bolts, helix, counters, snapcaster etc.. I think this card would be worth testing, an exact number of how many I do not know. Late game delver draw with this after puts an instant/sorcery on top so we can flip delver guaranteed
Come to think of it, Deaths Shadow and Kiln Fiend might just start running the Revivals as well.
Those bans though. If you want something that does exactly what Probe does then Peek is your go to, the lesser value though that you have to pay for it with mana will hurt. Personally I believe the best card for us will be Ancestral Vision. It does not exactly trigger prowess when we want it which is a downside but I think the meta will be slowing down now. As mentioned above Deaths Shadow Aggro is going to get hurt hard, All-in Kiln Fiend decks will be hit but still survivable, Infect needs a replacement (not all important but helpful), Dredge is going to slow down again. WOTC is pushing the format more and more towards later games, they do not want consistent T3 kills, Ancestral Visions gives us just another way to fill our hands back up making us viable late game giving us more burn, more prowess triggers etc. The other card i see worth while is Faithless Looting. my problem with Mutagenic Growth, Distortion Strike, Expedite, Slip Through Space is all of these require a creature on board meaning they have potential to be a dead draw for us 1-2 ofs of things like these are great "gotcha" cards but a full playset i think is under utilized in our deck without going full prowess/aggro. Faithless Looting still allows us to dig deeper into our decks, puts more in the Graveyard for Snapcaster Potentially or smooths our mana. With a playset of these in the deck it is possible we could drop 1 or 2 lands because we have both serum and faithless allowing us to dig for them.
A card that wasn't mentioned above that we could potentially take advantage of is Noxious Revival, We can get back creatures, bolts, helix, counters, snapcaster etc.. I think this card would be worth testing, an exact number of how many I do not know. Late game delver draw with this after puts an instant/sorcery on top so we can flip delver guaranteed
Come to think of it, Deaths Shadow and Kiln Fiend might just start running the Revivals as well.
Great points Rafiq. I was just going through my "jeskai" box and stopped on noxious revival. I will have to give this one a try. I always hate to be too dependent on the graveyard, but with the dredge ban, maybe it's a little safer to utilize the graveyard as less people will have hate. On that note, Bedlam Reveler is a bit less scary because there will be less graveyard hate going around.
I recently added Ancestral Visions to my sideboard and it has been doing very well. I added a package of one Kari Sev's Expertise and two Ancestral Vision to the sideboard as well as one expertise in the mainboard. I may just have to add that package to the main board. At worst, the expertise can just give one of our creatures haste and cast a card for free. I have narrowed the list for testing down to peek, ancestral vision, twisted image, the ancestral/expertise package, and/or additional copies of spell pierce, boros charm, and a 20th land. While the ban hurts a little, it really won't affect us all that badl; particularly the delver builds.
Lord Hazanko- Very cool deck Lord Hazanko. This deck does utilize prowess extremely well, but I'm not sure I would consider it jeskai aggro/tempo prowess. With the meta most likely slowing down a bit, this could definitely be a way to go in terms of jeskai. I'm gonna stick with the tempo style for now and see how it goes in the new meta. If I do every decide to sleeve somthing different up, I will definitely come take a look. I always love to see unique jeskai decks. Thanks for sharing.
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both look like very fun cards. Kari Zev's Menace makes her harder to block. Its a pity the monkey token doesn't have flying
Kari Zev's Expertise is a very cool card. Even though its a sorcery, stealing an opponent's creature AND getting a free spell is tremendous value.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
IM SO F'n EXCITED
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
We did get a couple other potential spells in Alley EvasionThis card can save our creatures from spot removal like we can with Vapor snag without taking a point of damage, or it can pump our threats, on a Prowess creature this is 1CMC +2/+3 pushing any of our prowess out of bolt range, on Geist they block with a 2power creature and now geist becomes a 3/4. I can see this becoming a 1 or 2 in the MB or in the SB.. Obviously Mutagenic is easier to cast being free but it hurts our life total.
Another card we got is Invigorated Rampage I think this will be more for the all in prowess/Aggro versions of the deck or ones utalizing Mentor as with this 1 spell we can make 2 mentor tokens into 4/2 with trample. Again i believe this will be a 1 or 2 most likely.
K, that's all I got, and I've probably abused parentheses enough for today, (I <3 punctuation) so farewell.
To add to this, with my personal experience with my Jeskai Delver list against Grixis, I believe we're favored (and probably against all of the other iterations, with the exception of Esper Delver) because besides the better reach that our colors provide (Helices, Boros Charms, Jeskai Charms and Deflecting Palms), cards like Stormchaser and/or Mentor are able to bypass and race them. From the games against Grixis the only games I've lost are because I couldn't find my white mana in 5-6 turns and having a bunch of paths and helices in my hand. We can pressure them with great effect on their end step, and Snagging their Tasigur or Fish is a big tempo loss for them.
The decks we need to watch out for are esper control lists and abzan, since they're the lists that can best utilize Fatal Push in combination with discards and Lingering Souls. Now, due to this I suppose we should adjust our lists to better fight in the mid/late game with cards like Mentor and Reveler, I don't think the counterspell way is suited for Jeskai.
Great calls. I ordered both of those cards after the spoiler. I really like the alley evasion. It has a ton of utility in our deck. The rampage thing is awesome and would fit into a kiln fiend version, but not my first deck. I did order it anyways just in case I switch to a kiln fiend version in the future.
I love seeing people look for hidden treasures for our deck. It's always a blast to brew!
I also agree the Abzan and Esper are going to be our toughest matchups in the future. I think reveler will really help and possibly the new kari zen expertise against the goyf decks. I plan on doing a testing session against against abzan/rock with the new push card as soon as I can find a list. I will let you all know how it goes and it the new expertise card works as a sideboard option. I really want to pair it with ancestral vision or perilous research but that's probably too greedy.
Good to hear from you Twinicus! Saheeli Rai has really impressed me this far. Her ping scry is great at any point and we have a ton of targets for her doubling ability in snapcaster, abbot, bedlam reveler, or even swiftspear or delver. I wish Geist wasn't legendary, I would LOVE to make a double Geist.
I want to play abbot so bad that I am probably going to make a second jeskai prowess deck with him. He is amazing with Saheeli Rai.
I also had an ideas last night if maybe playing Geist, Kari Sev, and her expertise with ancestral vision and perilous research. That way I could sac a token or the opponents creature to research do draw cards. Lots of brewing ideas with new cards 😃. Saheeli also works well with Kari Sev.
I wish the guardian was an artifact so saheeli could get him with her ultimate. It will be interesting to see what type of jeskai decks try to take advantage of the combo. It doesn't fit into jeskai prowess but I will def be brewing.
Felidar Guardian with Restoration Angel is also a thing but you need a 3rd card like Outpost Siege, Purphoros, God of the Forge or Impact Tremors.
Invigorated Rampage is a reasonable pump spell. It could have gotten a Revolt trigger on it, letting it gain first strike! But we can't have anything. Hehehe!
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-bbd-jeskai-aggro-modern/
Just looking at the creatures this deck plays gets me thinking if it wouldn't be just better to go all in with Kiln Fiend and Thing in the Ice (and Bedlam Reveler) instead of playing with Stormchaser Mage and Mantis Rider (and Goblin Guide).
The threats in "UR Prowess" are just much better at closing the game while not being any more vulnerable than those in the "Jeskai Aggro" deck and also having the better late game with Bedlam Reveler.
I just think it is the better deck between these two decks that operate very similarly and try to do the same.
I agree when it comes to the full aggro lists. This is another reason I am not a huge fan of the full aggro list with goblin guide, mantis rider, stormchaser, etc. I think burn and UR kiln fiend are better versions of that style of deck. The difference really comes down to the sideboard and removal. Kiln Fiend is played as a combo deck whereas jeskai prowess is played as an aggro control deck.
It really depends on if you are comparing the full 75 cards or the mainboards. UR Kiln Fiend will be a faster more version of a "prowess deck" because it is built to be all in on killing the opponent as quickly as possible. Most jeskai prowess lists can play as a tempo deck with a decent amount of counter magic and removal against aggro and midrange decks and can take a tempo or aggro/control role against control and big mand decks. Essentially jeskai prowess is a much more malleable deck, but is far less powerful in terms of raw power.
When it comes to the Jim Davis style list, I agree with you. I think the UR Kiln Fiend TITI list just plays a much better aggro game with slight disruption than the Davis Prowess list. I think that BBD also kind of came to that conclusion at the end. He said the deck just felt like it was missing something. In my opinion the deck plays much better as a tempo or aggro control list than it does as a pure aggro list. Like you said, having access to Bedlam Reveler in the late game (or Monastery Mentor) gives the deck another dimension that is sorely needed in my opinion. The hard part for aggro control is finding the perfect balance of being aggressive enough and having enough disruption and late game.
Onto another topic. I have been testing a Kari Sev's Expertise in my flex spot in my mainboard and an additional copy of it in my sideboard alsong with two copies of Ancestral Vision. It has been great against jund, abzan, and eldrazi. I used to run two copies of ancestral vision in my sideboard for the midrange matchups, but took them out because I thought they were a little slow unless you drew them on turn 1. However, with access to the expertise that takes a little of that worry away. So far, I have been pleasantly surprised. With deflecting palm and expertise in he deck the opponent is always off guard. I will keep you posted on how it goes because I haven't really played with it much, but I really hope it works out. Has anyone else tried Kari Sev's Expertise or Kari Sev yet? I am excited to brew a geist/baby geist list soon
Now given that my list is more aggressive than some, the prowess ability is what gives the deck the inherent resiliency to removals. Every spell you cast is +1 damage, which complicates combat for the opponents, giving you the ability to just chip in damage and hold your spells for utility. Further complicating things for our opponents is the amplification effect that burn spells have with prowess, with things getting out of hand quickly with a 2nd creature, in which the Jeskai colors have, simply put, the best.
As for the blocking capabilities of TiTi, why do they matter? Most of the times you're the aggressor and if the time comes that you need to block, you're either losing the ground battle (like in jund/junk) and your TiTi will be on chump duty or you're better off with, say, a Swiftspear blocking and bolting another creature or their face to end up with a 2 for 1.
Very well said. That's kind of what I was trying to get at. Most jeskai prowess decks are moving towards a better top end and more value. With that said, the early aggression is extremely important to our gameplan. I basically want to be as aggressive as I possibly can while maintaining enough disruption. I also run a fairly aggressive version of the deck with 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 7 burn spells, and three bounce spells. An early threat is extremely important to our game plan. I like to consider prowess an added benefit to the deck. I think the decks that try to "build around" prowess get to invested in just trying to trigger prowess and end up being to one dimensional.
I am very interested to see where the meta goes once fatal push has entered into the equation. I assume many of the more one dimensional aggro lists like burn, kiln fiend, and death shadow aggro will take a serious hit in meta share unless they really adjust. I also think affinity and infect will take a hit as well. With a slower meta Ancestral Vision gains value. I do think the new meta will be very well suited to an aggro/control or tempo build that can put early pressure on the opponent and disrupt the board while utilizing counter magic. I am very excited for modern's future and especially for our deck's place in the future meta.
The deck looks pretty good and I think that mainboard Monastery Mentor (very powerful and great with Saheeli Rai) over Abbot of Keral Keep will be the better option.
Abbot is a pretty sub-par creature (I tried to make it work and it was dissapointing every time).
You can also go heavier into tokens with Young Pyromancer over Stormchaser Mage which is another creature which is just "ok" imho but not that great.
The deck i faced i do not have an exact list for but below are the cards i saw in the package:
- Serum Visions
- Sleight of Hand
- Ancestral Vision
- Young Pyromancer
- Monastery Mentor
- Misdirection
- Disrupting Shoal
- Deprive
- Snapback
These card choices were definatley interesting and unexpected to say the least. Being that most every card required him to exile some sort of blue card from his hand in order to work properly once past the first few turns he ran out of gas.. However T1 disrupting Shoal exiling Sleight of Hand to counter a Thoughtseize or Inquisition was kind of spicy.
Fatal Push is the real deal against us, right now more deck i have seen are testing out just 2 of as they do not know how often the revolt trigger will happen consistently however most creatures to worry about are 2CMC or less anyway. Out of all the Jeskai Prowess, Jeskai Mentor etc decks i have faced they cannot seem to get past that extra removal that black will be packing, I know we can do it but it might mean a slight change in our deck layout. Adding Spell Pierce and Dispel MB may not be to terrible of an idea for us and potentially dropping Delver T2 instead so we have counter magic protection but this can open up the chance for him to be discarded, so we will need to be careful as to what we keep opening hands. Grixis, Esper, and Jund will become the bane of our existence and probably the hardest matches. with grixis a packing 12+ removal (in early testings) backed by 4-6 discard and 4+ counter spells they have been controlling the early game fairly easily. Jund is Jund but now they can control the early game more then before. As for Esper, I think all of these builds will be tough.. Draw-Go having Ancestral Visions, Esper Charm, Discards, board wipes, and the Midrange running Lingering Souls, Tasigur, 4-6 Removal, 4-6 Discard, and 4-6 Counters.
TL;DR (or was just all rambling) we need to plan for Midgame, Geist, Bedlam Reveler these will be game winners, as well as protection spells.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
The good news is that we have some slots in our deck to have fun with. Here is a list of the things that we can try:
-Peek
-Thought Scour
-Slip Through Space
-Mutagenic Growth
-Cerulean Wisps
-Visions of beyond
-Distortion Strike
-Expedite
-Gut Shot
-Faithless Looting
-Spell Pierce
-Sleight of Hand
-Ancestral Visions
And probably lots of other cards. For those who are playing the aggro/control list who had already cut a couple of copies of probe, this news isn't too bad. Really for those who run a very prowess heavy list, you can probably add mutagenic growth (if your not already running 4) and a combination of peek/sleight of hand/or possibly others on the list. What are you guys/gals going to try first?
I think I will slot Peek and/or Thought Scour in the slot first. Maybe two peek and a miser's Mutagenic Growth
A card that wasn't mentioned above that we could potentially take advantage of is Noxious Revival, We can get back creatures, bolts, helix, counters, snapcaster etc.. I think this card would be worth testing, an exact number of how many I do not know. Late game delver draw with this after puts an instant/sorcery on top so we can flip delver guaranteed
Come to think of it, Deaths Shadow and Kiln Fiend might just start running the Revivals as well.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/554956-ritual-gifts?page=12
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace's Sanctum
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
2 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Sudden Shock
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Fragmentize
1 Disenchant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Docent of Perfection
i will just max out on Mutagenic Growth, Vapor Snag and Remands.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Great points Rafiq. I was just going through my "jeskai" box and stopped on noxious revival. I will have to give this one a try. I always hate to be too dependent on the graveyard, but with the dredge ban, maybe it's a little safer to utilize the graveyard as less people will have hate. On that note, Bedlam Reveler is a bit less scary because there will be less graveyard hate going around.
I recently added Ancestral Visions to my sideboard and it has been doing very well. I added a package of one Kari Sev's Expertise and two Ancestral Vision to the sideboard as well as one expertise in the mainboard. I may just have to add that package to the main board. At worst, the expertise can just give one of our creatures haste and cast a card for free. I have narrowed the list for testing down to peek, ancestral vision, twisted image, the ancestral/expertise package, and/or additional copies of spell pierce, boros charm, and a 20th land. While the ban hurts a little, it really won't affect us all that badl; particularly the delver builds.
Lord Hazanko- Very cool deck Lord Hazanko. This deck does utilize prowess extremely well, but I'm not sure I would consider it jeskai aggro/tempo prowess. With the meta most likely slowing down a bit, this could definitely be a way to go in terms of jeskai. I'm gonna stick with the tempo style for now and see how it goes in the new meta. If I do every decide to sleeve somthing different up, I will definitely come take a look. I always love to see unique jeskai decks. Thanks for sharing.