Very cool list. Let us know how it goes. Shinka is a really cool addition and looks really great in your deck.
Today's FNM ended 2-2.
First round I won against Jeskai Nahiri. First game he grinded me to death and it took 30 minutes. Games 2 & 3 were over in 10 minutes. He flooded both games and flipped Delver, Clique and Geist finished the games quickly.
Second round I had to face my nemesis TitanShift and lost yet again. He had Anger when I played Geist in game one and finished me with Scapeshift. Second game I Cliqued him and he had two Summoner's Pacts in hand -_- He was able to resolve Titan and I could't find a Path. I had added Disdainful Stroke but didn't draw it.
Third round I played against Skred Red (first time in my store). Second bad match-up since he runs Blood Moons and Angers mainboard and has Skreds and Bolts for my creatures. Game 1 he played a mainboard Ensnaring Bridge the turn after I finally resolved Geist so Geist couldn't attack and his Planeswalkers finished me. Game 2 was long and grindy too and ended in his favor.
Fourth round I played against a fun BW Goat deck with Springjack Shepherd and the white and black Expertise cards to fuse Beck // Call. Game 1 was an easy win with flipped Delver, Clique and burn. Game 2 he got me with four 4/5 goats Game 3 I stalled him long enough with Remand and Snappy, so that Delver could get him down in double Bolt range and I won. Mana Leaks did good work against his Expertise cards.
So all in all it was a fun evening. Cliques were good. Shinka was also good (Skred Red player blocked Geist with two tokens forgetting about Shinka--guess that can steal some games at tournaments). Blessed Alliance was useless in my match-ups. During the grindy games I wished I had a CMC4 PW like Gideon in my SB...
Very cool list. Let us know how it goes. Shinka is a really cool addition and looks really great in your deck.
Today's FNM ended 2-2.
First round I won against Jeskai Nahiri. First game he grinded me to death and it took 30 minutes. Games 2 & 3 were over in 10 minutes. He flooded both games and flipped Delver, Clique and Geist finished the games quickly.
Second round I had to face my nemesis TitanShift and lost yet again. He had Anger when I played Geist in game one and finished me with Scapeshift. Second game I Cliqued him and he had two Summoner's Pacts in hand -_- He was able to resolve Titan and I could't find a Path. I had added Disdainful Stroke but didn't draw it.
Third round I played against Skred Red (first time in my store). Second bad match-up since he runs Blood Moons and Angers mainboard and has Skreds and Bolts for my creatures. Game 1 he played a mainboard Ensnaring Bridge the turn after I finally resolved Geist so Geist couldn't attack and his Planeswalkers finished me. Game 2 was long and grindy too and ended in his favor.
Fourth round I played against a fun BW Goat deck with Springjack Shepherd and the white and black Expertise cards to fuse Beck // Call. Game 1 was an easy win with flipped Delver, Clique and burn. Game 2 he got me with four 4/5 goats Game 3 I stalled him long enough with Remand and Snappy, so that Delver could get him down in double Bolt range and I won. Mana Leaks did good work against his Expertise cards.
So all in all it was a fun evening. Cliques were good. Shinka was also good (Skred Red player blocked Geist with two tokens forgetting about Shinka--guess that can steal some games at tournaments). Blessed Alliance was useless in my match-ups. During the grindy games I wished I had a CMC4 PW like Gideon in my SB...
Thanks for sharing your notes! Those are some interesting matchups. I will ask my playgroup to play the Titanshift deck against my deck to see what can help the matchup. It's probably just a very tough matchup, especially if they run a ton of Anger of the Gods. I have played it a number of times and I hate that both path and vapor snag are not good answers to Primevel Titan. I guess the best way to go about it is to try to kill them quickly. I'm pretty sure I discussed my sideboard plan against that deck last time we talked about it, but I will do some testing to get a more detailed analysis of the matchup.
Skred is another one I haven't had a ton of experience against, but it definitely looks like a really tough matchup. I typically take the aggro/tempo approach against the more tier 3 style decks, but it may be better to be the aggro control/midrange style against them and counter the blood moons, etc and beat down with Geist. Does anyone have a lot of experience against the skred red deck?
I do think that having the 4 mana planeswalker is a good call for a lot of the jeskai prowess decks that can go from more aggro/control to a midrange style. Mine is either aggro or tempo and I can't really play the midrange game so I don't include a 4 CMC walker, but I do think a lot of the decks listed on here cold really do well having a 4 CMC walker to side in.
It looks like you beat the even/favored matchups and lost to the unfavored ones. That's how modern goes sometimes. When you get lucky enough to draw well or have the correct hands against the unfavored matchups or catch a bunch of decent matchups that's the nights we go 4-0. I was on a very long drought of 4-0s until two weeks ago when I caught some decent matchups. This last modern night I also went 2-2 and will share my results as soon as I get some time (leaving for a 2 year old birthday party). I lost to Eldrazi Tron and Ad Nauseum and beat death shadow aggro and burn. I knew some of the players would be playing the new hot decks and so far I think the Eldrazi Tron deck hasn't found it's best build yet, but the death shadow traverse deck looks solid. I hope it does well because I think we have a very good matchup against that deck :).
How has everyone else been doing? I haven't made any changes to the deck in awhile so I haven't had a ton to talk about. I hope that snapcaster mage is in the new MM 2017 so more people can play the deck
Got tired of tweaking every 1-2 games without knowing if it's just luck swinging the games. Decided to hunker down and play the same list for at least 12+ games to get a good read on what needs to be changed. Here's my report from playing a game or two online whenever i could the last month or so (Consistently used the list below)
Jund 2:0
- G1 drawn out, traded his 2-drops with removal and snaps until a mentor stuck long enough to put a monk into play, his painful truth dug only inquisitions, wasted on lands i kept in hand, and his dark confidant came too land and did too much damage
- G2 whittled his goyfs away with some fancy combat prowess shenanigans, then serum visioned into the SB Elspeth when we where both topdecking and flooding. He never drew into removal and the tokens chumped until i had the advantage.
- Finally won against BGX, but never saw liliana in this matchup, win felt good but don't know if it's repeatable.
- Always keep a land you don't need in hand was the lesson. there was a lot of whiffed inquisitions and thoughtseizes and tender-footing on opponent's part
Affinity 2:1
- G1: bolt their eot + noxious revival, then bolt, snap, bolt my turn and the board is clear + got a blocker... sick
- G2: i need to learn to deal with archbound ravager effectively, spell snare works wonders but i got infect-ed out
- G3: 1 for 1 and sometimes 2 for 1-ed them (forked bolt the pests and smaller guys), and countered what they top-decked after they ran out of gas
- favourable. Affinity doesn't feel hard to deal with
- land-hate felt more important than artifact hate as there is ample removal
Merfolk 2:1
- W/ Harbinger of the tides
- G1 super drawn out, harbinger on aether vial bounced my threats until he landed a master of tides
- G2 went down to 1 life before sticking a mentor and swamping him through serum visions and snaps
- G3, mentor stuck T3 and just swamped the board again
- don't feel it's a good matchup without the mentor. merfolk can blanket the board fast with protection, disruption, and islandwalk to boot...
- even with the sideboard, only engineered explosives felt right, and it wasn't enough really. Luck carried me most of the way.
- Need board wipe in the board?
Cheerios 2:1
- G1 3 removals + flipped jace not enough to keep him from sticking one paladin. I proceeded to flood and lose to silence and retract
- G2 spell snares stalled and one engineered explosive on 0 kept him spooked and let my snapcaster take him down to 10. Made a mistake and let him bounce the explosive on my eot in favour of keeping mana up for remand, bolt and path. Silence dropped, backed by swan song, but he whiffed with only 3 equipments left after landing a paladin. Engineered explosives back out on my turn and burned him slowly to death.
- G3 mulled to 5, delver, explosives and the one SB surgical extraction... not the best, but he was worse; mulled to 6 with the one land he'd have for the next 3 turns. Had to discard a silence which i extracted to trigger him conceding.
- Cheerios too inconsistent... and post-board there's good answers in explosives and extraction (extract a removed/countered paladin or retract is crippling). This means that we shouldn't see their T2-T3 kills very often. It's Silence mid to late game that's harder to deal with...
Grixis Zoo 1:2
- G1 didn't know what was going on and lost to a liliana
- G2 burned him to death with boros charm and snap pretty fast (boros charm pretty awesome, being able to hit liliana +1 too
- G3 went down to 1 life each, and his slaughter pac cleared the way for a goyf to end the game...
- felt if i played better it would've gone my way. opponent a much better player than i am
Grixis Delver 1:2
- G1 lost to getting shut out by discard and stubborn denial with a fat goyf out
- G2 he flipped 2 delvers but I had my own + kari zev's expertise + swiftspear for the win
- G3 2 goyfs on curve backed by stubborn denial and fatal push ended me
- missing that 4th path, didn't see one this match at all.
Jund 0:2
- G1, G2 both ended up being a top deck games and card for card it felt like they had more beatdown power
- their crazy amounts of removal + liliana + discard meant that seeing 3 delvers, a geist, and mentor by T4 wasn't enough to have any of them stick
- makes me miss my 3 leylines of sanctity in the SB, but it could be that i'm not playing this right...
RG bushwacker 1:2
- G1 two goblin guides backed by bushwacker and atarka's command made short work of my not keeping a hand with lots of removal
- G2 i smartend up and made removal count, kept an eye for atarka's, and 2 flipped delvers was enough to end it
- G3 came down to 1 life point, 1 turn difference, with both of us out of gas and top-decking for 3-4 turns
- Notes: land-hate was effective since they play so few, the one spreading seas' locked them out of colour for a while, and replacing itself is really useful
- 3 helixes helped but need to be able to keep a threat on the board against their removal.
- spell snare the mvp against atarka's command, goyf, burning tree +
- letting a goblin guide live sometimes work much more to our advantage.
Sun&Moon 1:2
- G1 Blood moon and two Nahiries back to back ended me pretty quickly when i only had removal and no counterspells in hand
- G2 I was too fast for him with 2 swiftspears and a flipped delver + bolt and noxious revival T4
- G3 drawn out... stopped elspeth from landing, but traded poorly with his removal. thought i had it with geist and no cards in hand but got hit with wrath.
- felt like a even matchup, with the losses more so my fault than the deck's.
- Should've guessed he would side out blood moon (or he just never drew them), and i should've sided in elspeth junior to have more staying power.
Abzan Coco 0:2
- G1 Flipped delver T2, pathed voice, he Coco-ed the swamped the board while i flooded
- G2 eternal witness, fatal push, and collective brutality gave him too much advantage
- Board wipes...
Lanturn Control 1:1
- G1 got locked out with him at 5 health
- G2 engineered explosvies + noxious revival saved the day
- G3 timed out
- Annoying, but can be dealt with.
Doubling Season 1:1
- G1 removed arbor elf T1 to slow him down, was able to stick a flipped delver and giest. He was only able to land 3 planes walkers, none of which stuck more than a turn.
- G2 game dragged on, if delver flipped i would've taken it, but alas, one turn away and i lost it to doubling season and tamyio
- G3 had to leave and didn't finish. Call it tie?
- Combo deck... can deal with it though if played carefully with disruption.
RG Bushwacker? 2:0
- a bad list that ran experiment 1 and thalia
- G1 kept 3 bolt 2 spell snare, and 1 land hand, scrying into a second land. That was too much for them already.
- G2 they fetched and shocked themselves half way to the grave, and their goblin
Monogreen Creatures 2:1
- Odd homebrew?, played Leatherback Baloth, rancor, vines, experiment one...
- G1 pathed and burned. Baloth hard to deal with G2 but between 3 paths, vapour snag, kari zev's expertise, and jeskai charm, it felt like i had the advantage overall. G3 supported that.
RW Expertise 2:1
- neat deck with brain in a jar, defense grid, the W and R expertises, beck // call, and chandra mindsculptor + another fuse card
- G1 they landed defense grid T2 and I never had more than 3 lands in play period, saw the expertises land an insane amount of tokens and draw, and game ended
- G2&G3 surgical extraction + snap + explosives made sure his "combos" didn't go off, or just blew the board up at x=0 when it did.
Odd games where i have no clue what they were running (not saying much). Versatility in the deck allowed me to handle the more unrefined builds tossed my way.
?? 2:1
?? 2:0
Though i feel a few of the losses are more my bad piloting, there's still a few things i'm going to change with the build before going for another stretch of recording the games. Having it all down on paper makes teaking a bit easier
playtesting and deck refinement is a demanding process as you mentioned and experienced.
i am surprised you didn't get a few games in versus Tron, also one of our not so good match ups.
my experience with my deck (jeskai delver) is 50:50 vs Jund and Grixis Delver. I have no issues versus Burn post sideboard and have little issue versus Naya Zoo / Bushwhacker variants bar a nut draw at their end.
Death Shadow Aggro can be a handful when they strip my hand of all removal and i have to chump block using what i have on board. I have stole a few games with Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix or Deflecting Palm, but i generally do not like to play against DSA or Infect because i always find myself playing too defensively.
I do okay against Affinity especially post sideboarding.
Merfolk is another deck i do not like going against. Islandwalk and 3-4 power merfolks by turn 4 always did me in. they simply run me out of removal and chip me down. granted, the last time i played against Merfolk was with the old fetch/shocklands mana base (pre kaladesh) so i wonder if with the post kaladesh mana base, would my match up be better.
Skred is another one I haven't had a ton of experience against, but it definitely looks like a really tough matchup. I typically take the aggro/tempo approach against the more tier 3 style decks, but it may be better to be the aggro control/midrange style against them and counter the blood moons, etc and beat down with Geist. Does anyone have a lot of experience against the skred red deck?
It looks like you beat the even/favored matchups and lost to the unfavored ones. That's how modern goes sometimes. When you get lucky enough to draw well or have the correct hands against the unfavored matchups or catch a bunch of decent matchups that's the nights we go 4-0. I was on a very long drought of 4-0s until two weeks ago when I caught some decent matchups. This last modern night I also went 2-2 and will share my results as soon as I get some time (leaving for a 2 year old birthday party). I lost to Eldrazi Tron and Ad Nauseum and beat death shadow aggro and burn. I knew some of the players would be playing the new hot decks and so far I think the Eldrazi Tron deck hasn't found it's best build yet, but the death shadow traverse deck looks solid. I hope it does well because I think we have a very good matchup against that deck :).
How has everyone else been doing? I haven't made any changes to the deck in awhile so I haven't had a ton to talk about. I hope that snapcaster mage is in the new MM 2017 so more people can play the deck
i both play with and against Skred for a few months before giving up Skred. It is one of our worst match up in G1 because that deck packs so much burn and wraths like Anger of the Gods. If you have the misfortune of playing against the Chalice of the Void variant, it gets worst because they usually Chalice for 2 or 3, nullifying most of the important cards in our deck. The Simian Spirit Guide version has a tendency of dropping a turn 2 Blood Moon which usually kills the game off at that point.
However, how well the Skred player does against our Jeskai Aggro/Tempo depends on how experienced the pilot is at times. Some opening hands for Skred are not playable and i have seen inexperienced pilots keep them and having their faces done in by turn 4. However, that deck has a tendency to play itself as its a really simple deck to play and tilts the favor to its pilot more if the pilot is an experienced Modern player.
I think the new Death Shadow Traverse variant tilts things slightly towards our favor because that build runs a lot less creatures. It still does pack the same discard package (thoughtseize and Iok) but them having less creatures is great for us as we will simply throw more burn to their face. =)
On the home front, i have been testing Jeskai Black Delver... i have to try out Fatal Push somehow!
Excalibur- Awesome write up! I think you are exactly correct on sticking with a build and putting in the practice hours. I think if you played against zoo, bushwaker zoo, and grixis delver 10 times you would win more than you lost. I have found these matchups to be fairly favored (depending on build of course). They can definitely beat us with great draws, but I feel like these are matchups you can definitely win and I wouldn't change the deck too much for these matchups. Sun and Moon, Abzan, and Lantern are not easy matchups and I have found them to be unfavored. Not unwinnable, but not favored. to simplify things Because modern is so diverse right now, I have basically put things into categories and sideboard accordingly. For big mana decks I have d palm, kari zev's expertise, removal. For control/tempo I have negate, dispel, celestial purge, ancestral visions. For midrange I have ancestral vision, kari sev's expertise, echoing truth. And for random decks I have EE, echoing truth, spreading seas, wear/tear, stony silence, grafdigger's cage, etc. It kinda of simplifies how I sideboard and keeps my decks main gameplan in action post board.
I agree with Need More DPS that this style of deck takes a TON of playtesting/practicing to become proficient with the deck and to tweak the deck to your personal liking or to your preferred meta. One thing that I have found in modern when it comes to be successful with URx tempo/midrange decks is that it is very important to get the deck to where you personally can perform the best with the deck.
Corey Burkhart is a great example and so is Ryan Overturf. I completely disagree with Ryan Overturf about the best way to build a delver deck in modern. He plays a full playset of spell snare and a ton of control elements (like 10+ counter spells). However, he has been very successful with his Delver deck. It fits the way he likes to play and he has put in the time to be great with the deck. I loved watching when Michael Majors tried to play Ryan Overturf's deck for starcity games. It was miserable and he went 2-3 and was probably lucky to do that well. It just didn't fit how majors likes to play. Corey Burkhart continues to show that grixis control can be very successful in modern, but he too plays a lot of one ofs and a lot of "pet cards". He plays two countersqualls main and did so well before anyone else did. He plays four Ancestal Visions main when everyone else thinks it "to slow". He also plays a Logic Knot and Engineered Explosives in his main deck. These are great examples of how someone can be successful in modern with a URx deck.
With that said, it appears to take more effort and practice to really do well with a URx deck in modern. Most players could pick up a Abzan list and do reasonably well and could see most of the lines to play. I think this is why so many people argue that twin needs to be unbanned. This is a topic I won't touch on because everyone has an opinion on twin, but I do think if more people put in more time with URx decks they would find that they can be very successful without twin.
NMDPS- Jeskai Black sounds very interesting. I can't wait to see your list. Path to Exile is tough to swallow in the non-aggro version because the last thing you want to do with a midrange deck is to ramp your opponent. Push will really help with that. With access to helix you can take a few hits from your lands. Keep us posted on your build
NMDPS- Jeskai Black sounds very interesting. I can't wait to see your list. Path to Exile is tough to swallow in the non-aggro version because the last thing you want to do with a midrange deck is to ramp your opponent. Push will really help with that. With access to helix you can take a few hits from your lands. Keep us posted on your build.
Most people expect Path to Exile to be the prime removal but I surprise them with Fatal Push and Terminate. Lightning Helix has surprised a few as a finisher/blow out. I have a short list of cards I want to slip in:
i generally am keeping the overall cmc as low as possible because of the 18 land manabase. if i were to add those 3 cards, i need to tweak the mana base to 19 lands and possible tweak the fast lands and shock lands mix.
So you're splashing white in a Grixis list solely for 2x Lightning Helix and a Mentor in the SB...? If you're going through the pain of a 4C manabase I'd want to reap the benefits of Spell Queller, Path, and maybe even 3-4x Helix.
On a more constructive note, in my (Mardu) experience if you already have Bolt & Terminate then Path is a better 1 CMC removal spell than Push. Always nice to answer the bigger Eldrazi and other large threats cleanly.
So you're splashing white in a Grixis list solely for 2x Lightning Helix and a Mentor in the SB...?
On a more constructive note, in my experience if you already have Bolt & Terminate then Path is a better 1 CMC removal spell than Push. Always nice to answer the bigger Eldrazi and other large threats cleanly.
Hi, I also wanted to thank EncaliburMTG for taking the time to write down this report. I liked reading it because our decks are very similar.
Today I stumbled over an old and forgotten card and tested and online...and I had a blast! My opponents were surprised and impressed too.
The card is Test of Faith! Of course it's hard to resolve if your opponent plays Spell Snare and of course your opponent can respond by killing your creature (if it's not Geist) but if the timing is right this card wins games! One game my opponent blocked Geist with 3 tokens, well, thanks for permanently making Geist a 5/5. The other game I played against Jeskai Control and I had a delver in my starting hand but I waited until turn 3 to protect it either with Mana Leak or Test of Faith (both in hand). My opponent cast Lightning Helix, making Delver a 4/4, next turn it flipped and I had a 6/5 Flyer--I love it!
This card could even be the answer to Titanshift. If the cast Anger and your Geist attacks them for 9 next turn...I think that will ruin their day. I'll test it a little more for sure.
This card can obviously lead to some blowouts and fun interactions but will probably be dead most of the time.
A weaker version of this effect but more efficient and a bit less narrow is Harm's Way.
Thank man, and thanks to CurdBros too for the vote of confidence. I don't get a lot of time to play besides that 1 game every other night so i mainly just browse the forum here and there. It's nice to see I can contribute a bit.
Test of Faith and Harm's Way looks nice! The problem i'm having with my build was pointed out before; i'm not dedicated enough to aggro for the win and run out of steam for the longer games. Hence my problem with BGX builds that I feel play a better midrange and control game. With the next round, i'm going for more card value. Spells that replace themselves like Hindering Light, potential 2-for-1 spells like Swerve, etc. Test of Faith might be worth a try but i wouldn't know what to cut. Along the same lines i would think emerge unscathed or that 1 white mana instant that gives choice colour protection for white creatures would be a better catch all? That'd cover the damn fatal pushes I hate seeing.
I'm getting the hang of this deck too. Finally winning matches against Grixis builds. Like CurdBros mentioned, that's half of it, how good a player you are with the deck itself.
Thank man, and thanks to CurdBros too for the vote of confidence. I don't get a lot of time to play besides that 1 game every other night so i mainly just browse the forum here and there. It's nice to see I can contribute a bit.
Test of Faith and Harm's Way looks nice! The problem i'm having with my build was pointed out before; i'm not dedicated enough to aggro for the win and run out of steam for the longer games. Hence my problem with BGX builds that I feel play a better midrange and control game. With the next round, i'm going for more card value. Spells that replace themselves like Hindering Light, potential 2-for-1 spells like Swerve, etc. Test of Faith might be worth a try but i wouldn't know what to cut. Along the same lines i would think emerge unscathed or that 1 white mana instant that gives choice colour protection for white creatures would be a better catch all? That'd cover the damn fatal pushes I hate seeing.
I'm getting the hang of this deck too. Finally winning matches against Grixis builds. Like CurdBros mentioned, that's half of it, how good a player you are with the deck itself.
Its always great to hear a member getting more positive results! Stay positive and give them hell even when you know the odds are against you! There is always new things to learn.
So you're splashing white in a Grixis list solely for 2x Lightning Helix and a Mentor in the SB...? If you're going through the pain of a 4C manabase I'd want to reap the benefits of Spell Queller, Path, and maybe even 3-4x Helix.
On a more constructive note, in my (Mardu) experience if you already have Bolt & Terminate then Path is a better 1 CMC removal spell than Push. Always nice to answer the bigger Eldrazi and other large threats cleanly.
Adding on, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher are terrible cards to face against (having played against and with those things). The best answers against those 2 is counterspells as letting them resolve is just the feels bads.
I have been tinkering with a transformational sideboard with my Jeskai Black Delver deck. I been packing 4 Essence Scatter and 4 Surgical Extraction ever since Dredge became (and still is actually) a thing. The resultant splash damage is its also decent against Eldrazi as i always make it a point to counter the TKS or Reality Smasher and stripping them away later. Granted, tuning your sideboard extremely bias-ly is rather unsportsman-like but sometimes you just got to do it against those unfair decks.
Thank man, and thanks to CurdBros too for the vote of confidence. I don't get a lot of time to play besides that 1 game every other night so i mainly just browse the forum here and there. It's nice to see I can contribute a bit.
Test of Faith and Harm's Way looks nice! The problem i'm having with my build was pointed out before; i'm not dedicated enough to aggro for the win and run out of steam for the longer games. Hence my problem with BGX builds that I feel play a better midrange and control game. With the next round, i'm going for more card value. Spells that replace themselves like Hindering Light, potential 2-for-1 spells like Swerve, etc. Test of Faith might be worth a try but i wouldn't know what to cut. Along the same lines i would think emerge unscathed or that 1 white mana instant that gives choice colour protection for white creatures would be a better catch all? That'd cover the damn fatal pushes I hate seeing.
I'm getting the hang of this deck too. Finally winning matches against Grixis builds. Like CurdBros mentioned, that's half of it, how good a player you are with the deck itself.
Its always great to hear a member getting more positive results! Stay positive and give them hell even when you know the odds are against you! There is always new things to learn.
So you're splashing white in a Grixis list solely for 2x Lightning Helix and a Mentor in the SB...? If you're going through the pain of a 4C manabase I'd want to reap the benefits of Spell Queller, Path, and maybe even 3-4x Helix.
On a more constructive note, in my (Mardu) experience if you already have Bolt & Terminate then Path is a better 1 CMC removal spell than Push. Always nice to answer the bigger Eldrazi and other large threats cleanly.
Adding on, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher are terrible cards to face against (having played against and with those things). The best answers against those 2 is counterspells as letting them resolve is just the feels bads.
I have been tinkering with a transformational sideboard with my Jeskai Black Delver deck. I been packing 4 Essence Scatter and 4 Surgical Extraction ever since Dredge became (and still is actually) a thing. The resultant splash damage is its also decent against Eldrazi as i always make it a point to counter the TKS or Reality Smasher and stripping them away later. Granted, tuning your sideboard extremely bias-ly is rather unsportsman-like but sometimes you just got to do it against those unfair decks.
I made the uncomfortable choice of dropping Kor Firewalker from my deck as of late, it was a meta choice as the Burn players are playing Dredge now.
I always think it's a great idea to sideboard for the decks you are going to be playing against/your meta. There is no point playing stony silence if no one is playing affinity, tron, lantern in a specific person's meta. I like the board you chose. In addition, with black in your deck you can actually cast surgical extraction. You could also play Ceremonial Rejection if Eldrazi and or tron is prevalent in your meta.
Thank man, and thanks to CurdBros too for the vote of confidence. I don't get a lot of time to play besides that 1 game every other night so i mainly just browse the forum here and there. It's nice to see I can contribute a bit.
Test of Faith and Harm's Way looks nice! The problem i'm having with my build was pointed out before; i'm not dedicated enough to aggro for the win and run out of steam for the longer games. Hence my problem with BGX builds that I feel play a better midrange and control game. With the next round, i'm going for more card value. Spells that replace themselves like Hindering Light, potential 2-for-1 spells like Swerve, etc. Test of Faith might be worth a try but i wouldn't know what to cut. Along the same lines i would think emerge unscathed or that 1 white mana instant that gives choice colour protection for white creatures would be a better catch all? That'd cover the damn fatal pushes I hate seeing.
I'm getting the hang of this deck too. Finally winning matches against Grixis builds. Like CurdBros mentioned, that's half of it, how good a player you are with the deck itself.
That's great to hear your getting comfortable with the deck. That's a huge part of this archetype. The lines can be tough to decide when to become the aggressor or when to sit back. Some games I will be playing the control role and then have to switch to a burn/reach plan and burn them out if that's the way the game plays out. You will just keep getting better and better with your build.
I am also a huge fan of one ofs and cards that really make the deck play the way you like. I used to play Emerge Unscathed for a similar reason to your test of faith tech. Hindering Light is another great suggestion. Everytime I go through my jeskai box I see that card and think that has to be good, but never put it in. It may be time to give it a try.
Thanks for posting and I'm glad you have stuck with the deck and are now really mastering it. That's always great to hear.
Alright guys I am working on the flex spots in the deck. I haven't seen a need for forked bolt recently with few lingering souls being played and fewer bird/noble decks. I have never given Cryptic Command a try in my deck but I do know that Geist and Cryptic go together like peanut butter and jelly. I am going to make the plunge and try Cryptic Command in the main deck. I have been wanting a bit more counter magic in the main deck so I will also be trying negate in the cryptic spot. I will definitely be sticking with 19 lands with cryptic and had thought about going down to 18 again because I am having no problem getting lands.
I have also thought about putting Saheeli in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I am doing a testing group tonight and will try some new stuff. Let me know if there are any matchups you would like for me to test against and share notes. Enjoy SCG Indy this week!
Alright guys I am working on the flex spots in the deck. I haven't seen a need for forked bolt recently with few lingering souls being played and fewer bird/noble decks. I have never given Cryptic Command a try in my deck but I do know that Geist and Cryptic go together like peanut butter and jelly. I am going to make the plunge and try Cryptic Command in the main deck. I have been wanting a bit more counter magic in the main deck so I will also be trying negate in the cryptic spot. I will definitely be sticking with 19 lands with cryptic and had thought about going down to 18 again because I am having no problem getting lands.
I have also thought about putting Saheeli in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I am doing a testing group tonight and will try some new stuff. Let me know if there are any matchups you would like for me to test against and share notes. Enjoy SCG Indy this week!
If Tron Eldrazi and the new version of Death Shadow Aggro (i call it Turbo Jund) are available, give those a whirl. I don't think your games with DSA will be pretty, given that its Jund on steroids and our deck is traditionally 50/50 against it.
I like how Surgical Extraction won you the last match. This card has won me many games too lately, since I am running 2 copies in my SB. The best match was against one these retarded Fuse decks online. I was able to make Kari Zev's Expertise fizzle by bolting the target and removed all his copies with Surgical. Then my opponent tried to play Sram's Expertise but I was able to Spell Pierce it and remove these copies as well with Snap & Surgical. He conceded next turn. I just loved that game!
The BG zombie homebrew sounds interesting. Thankfully these decks are not very popular but I stumbled over a brew online that I just could't beat. Did four test games and lost all of them. My opponent was running 4x Geralf's Messenger, 4x Death Baron, 4x Cemetery Reaper and 4x Collected Company main board...
I have to admit that I am fed up with all the unfair strategies while I am playing a fair game and simply try to kill my opponent with Delver/Geist beatdown and burn. This time I want to discuss some possibilities to use unfair strategies in our Jeskai Tempo shells as well. Here are some ideas:
1. Add 4x Pact of the Titan & 4x Angel's Grace
Merits: Mana base doesn't need to be changed since we don't need to play high CMC cards. Best case scenario is a 4/4 Titan attacking on turn 2 and Angel's Grace can save us from loosing against opponent's combos. Problem: Titan dies to every removal.
2. Add 4x Madcap Experiment & 2x Platinum Emperion
Merits: Opponent needs to have/find an answer or he/she can't win. 8/8 body makes Emperion a good attacker. Inquisition can't stop this. Problem: Emperion dies to every removal (except Push). Experiment's CMC is 4 so we'll need 1-2 extra lands.
3. Play at least 3x Geist of Saint Traft, add 2x Worship & for example 2x Ascended Lawmage
Merits: Opponent needs to have/find an answer or he/she can't win, opponent most likely has no answer in game one. Problem: Worship can be removed or bounced with Cryptic or Wear/Tear and the plan crumbles against mass removal. Would need counter spells to fight over it.
4. Add 4x Shape Anew & 1x Blightsteel Colossus, replace at least 8 creatures
Merits: Blightsteel Colossus can win the game with one attack and there are very few answer to deal with him. Darksteel Colossus can be used too, to finish the opponent off after having dealt a lot of damage already. Problem: To function this strategy needs at least 3x Thopter Engineer (haste is very important) which aren't that good on their own. It also needs other creatures like Pia and Kiran Nalaar (which is good) and something like Thraben Inspector to make bolt-proof targets for Shape Anew. Also needs Izzet Charm to discard Colossus when he's stuck in hand. Also needs 22-23 lands so Delver would have to go.
What do you guys think about these four strategies? Which one seems most viable and why? Have you tried any of these before?
First off, Stevo, I like where your head's at. The pact/grace seems fragile with little pay off, under foster 4/4's that are dead in hand without grace seems sub par. Platinum Madcap, however, seems solid. Clique would play an important role here, being able to loot away emperion without discarding it. Land count should be a bit higher as well. Geist/worship is ok, though seems like a sideboard option since you're running geists anyway. It also ensures they don't board in an answer game 2 that way. Shape anew/blightsteel seems like a more troublesome version of platinum madcap. You need to add a bunch of artifact token generators and thin out the tempo game plan, countering shape anew loses the sacced artifact without gain (as opposed to nothing lost if madcap is leaked) and emperion stabilizes the game just by virtue of being there, where blight steel stabilizes nothing without swinging.
That's just my 2 cents, though. Keep in mind, I lose a lot of games.
I played some test games this weekend with Worship and Madcap. Madcap is too fragile in my opinion in a format where Kolaghan's Command is so popular. I won with it against Grixis delver because I was able to surgically exile my opponent's Commands but that was just lucky. Since a dead Emperion stays in the graveyard it can easily be exiled the same way as well...
I was very pleased with Worship though. Worship and a Lawmage in play won me a match against Baral Gifts Storm and a match against Jund. I didn't like the Lawmage's CMC4 cost however. Another (saver but slower) option would be Wall of Denial. With that card you even win against Anger/Whipflare/Elesh Norn. Lawmage on the other hand can pressure opponents real hard in combination with Geist and Clique to finish the game before they dig into an answer.
I have been working on my 4 flex spots as well lately and I really like what your saying Stevo. I have always said "I would never play a stupid card like worship.", "I want to win fairly". But if everyone else is playing unfair, its tough to stay on the fair train. I even avoided blood moon because I hate that card. However, until WOTC removes some of the more "stupid" cards I guess we should at least given them a look.
With that said, I really like where the modern meta is right now. I think a Simian Spirit Guide ban would make modern almost perfect. It's great to see grixis control, grixis delver, and abzan in the top 8 this week and to see jeskai control winning a tournament last week.
Ok back to the topic. Of the topics you talked about, I think worship is by far the best option. If you play 3-4 Geist and possibly add another 1 or 2 hexproof creatures, worship could be a great sideboard option.
As Dennis stated too, I did play a Nahiri/Inferno Titan package in my sideboard before for GBx decks and it worked very well so that is definitely something we could think about too. Shaun Mclaren played a very cool Saheeli Combo deck last night and did very well. I will have to watch the playback to see what worked well for him, but adding a couple of cards for an infinite combo makes sense as well.
I will be testing again tonight after work so I will take a look at a few of these ideas. I love when everyone starts brainstorming! I'm a brewer at heart
Hi CurdBros, I have to say that I absolutely agree with you. Our deck is the perfect shell for this strategy. Geist and Ascended Lawmage or Wall of Denial are very hard to remove when we run at least 2 Boros Charms which can make all our permanents indestructible. Emerge Unscathed can save Geist and Lawmage as well. And even if the board state allows no favorable attacks we can still burn the opponent out at some point if he can't kill us because of Worship. The version I am trying atm has 21 lands, 2 Worships, 5 hexproof creatures, and still runs 4 Delvers even though only 23 cards are left that flip them. I played more test games and so far I am 7-1 (including wins over the GP winning Death's Shadow deck (Leyline saved me there) and the Grixis Death's Shadow variant (quoting my opponent: "Damn Worship!")). So far I love how the deck is playing.
Hi CurdBros, I have to say that I absolutely agree with you. Our deck is the perfect shell for this strategy. Geist and Ascended Lawmage or Wall of Denial are very hard to remove when we run at least 2 Boros Charms which can make all our permanents indestructible. Emerge Unscathed can save Geist and Lawmage as well. And even if the board state allows no favorable attacks we can still burn the opponent out at some point if he can't kill us because of Worship. The version I am trying atm has 21 lands, 2 Worships, 5 hexproof creatures, and still runs 4 Delvers even though only 23 cards are left that flip them. I played more test games and so far I am 7-1 (including wins over the GP winning Death's Shadow deck (Leyline saved me there) and the Grixis Death's Shadow variant (quoting my opponent: "Damn Worship!")). So far I love how the deck is playing.
I really love your idea Stevomat. With all of the synergy from emerge unscathed, worship, hexproof creatures, etc you can play a generally great deck with a "easy" button of worship that gives you time to burn them out or finish them off. I like the worship idea best because it works much more seamlessly with the way the deck is already constructed. Right now I am not running Emerge, but I am going to have to give this idea a try. Someone could go really all-in with Geist, emerge, worship, and add Steel of the Godhead and possibly like Judges Familiar. It would probably be a delver deck at that point, but still a jeskai tempo deck. If you come up with something super successful you may have to start your own primer with "Geist Worship" or something like that (possibly bant with noble heirarch, but that's a different thread). Very cool though.
When you get a chance can you post your jeskai list you have been testing with?
I think it's exactly like you wrote CurdBros: "it works much more seamlessly with the way the deck is already constructed"! It plays the same way it always does. We pressure the opponent aggressively with turn 1 Delver, attack his life total with Bolt-Snap-Bolt or stall him with Remand-Snap-Remand, finish with flying attackers and Geist and burn. It's just that the opponent can't win without an answer
I don't like changing the deck to go "all in" because then the strength would turn to the deck's weakness. It would just become more prone to enchantment hate cards if we add Steel of the Godhead and Idyllic Tutor for example and other important cards would have to be cut...
That doesn't mean however that my list can't be tweaked and tuned. I few things on my mind:
I'd like to add a Moorland Haunt to be able to create more creatures but I don't know which land to cut. Maybe one of the fetches (since you can't fetch with Worship in play)? Glen Elendra Archmage could be good as a 1-of because of Persist and her ability which can protect Worship. Another idea would be to run Lawmages over Walls and add Disrupting Shoal because you'd have blue cards with CMC 1-4 to discard... Or maybe change something completely different? What do you guys think?
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Today's FNM ended 2-2.
First round I won against Jeskai Nahiri. First game he grinded me to death and it took 30 minutes. Games 2 & 3 were over in 10 minutes. He flooded both games and flipped Delver, Clique and Geist finished the games quickly.
Second round I had to face my nemesis TitanShift and lost yet again. He had Anger when I played Geist in game one and finished me with Scapeshift. Second game I Cliqued him and he had two Summoner's Pacts in hand -_- He was able to resolve Titan and I could't find a Path. I had added Disdainful Stroke but didn't draw it.
Third round I played against Skred Red (first time in my store). Second bad match-up since he runs Blood Moons and Angers mainboard and has Skreds and Bolts for my creatures. Game 1 he played a mainboard Ensnaring Bridge the turn after I finally resolved Geist so Geist couldn't attack and his Planeswalkers finished me. Game 2 was long and grindy too and ended in his favor.
Fourth round I played against a fun BW Goat deck with Springjack Shepherd and the white and black Expertise cards to fuse Beck // Call. Game 1 was an easy win with flipped Delver, Clique and burn. Game 2 he got me with four 4/5 goats Game 3 I stalled him long enough with Remand and Snappy, so that Delver could get him down in double Bolt range and I won. Mana Leaks did good work against his Expertise cards.
So all in all it was a fun evening. Cliques were good. Shinka was also good (Skred Red player blocked Geist with two tokens forgetting about Shinka--guess that can steal some games at tournaments). Blessed Alliance was useless in my match-ups. During the grindy games I wished I had a CMC4 PW like Gideon in my SB...
Thanks for sharing your notes! Those are some interesting matchups. I will ask my playgroup to play the Titanshift deck against my deck to see what can help the matchup. It's probably just a very tough matchup, especially if they run a ton of Anger of the Gods. I have played it a number of times and I hate that both path and vapor snag are not good answers to Primevel Titan. I guess the best way to go about it is to try to kill them quickly. I'm pretty sure I discussed my sideboard plan against that deck last time we talked about it, but I will do some testing to get a more detailed analysis of the matchup.
Skred is another one I haven't had a ton of experience against, but it definitely looks like a really tough matchup. I typically take the aggro/tempo approach against the more tier 3 style decks, but it may be better to be the aggro control/midrange style against them and counter the blood moons, etc and beat down with Geist. Does anyone have a lot of experience against the skred red deck?
I do think that having the 4 mana planeswalker is a good call for a lot of the jeskai prowess decks that can go from more aggro/control to a midrange style. Mine is either aggro or tempo and I can't really play the midrange game so I don't include a 4 CMC walker, but I do think a lot of the decks listed on here cold really do well having a 4 CMC walker to side in.
It looks like you beat the even/favored matchups and lost to the unfavored ones. That's how modern goes sometimes. When you get lucky enough to draw well or have the correct hands against the unfavored matchups or catch a bunch of decent matchups that's the nights we go 4-0. I was on a very long drought of 4-0s until two weeks ago when I caught some decent matchups. This last modern night I also went 2-2 and will share my results as soon as I get some time (leaving for a 2 year old birthday party). I lost to Eldrazi Tron and Ad Nauseum and beat death shadow aggro and burn. I knew some of the players would be playing the new hot decks and so far I think the Eldrazi Tron deck hasn't found it's best build yet, but the death shadow traverse deck looks solid. I hope it does well because I think we have a very good matchup against that deck :).
How has everyone else been doing? I haven't made any changes to the deck in awhile so I haven't had a ton to talk about. I hope that snapcaster mage is in the new MM 2017 so more people can play the deck
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
1 Forked Bolt
1 Slip through space
3 Path to exile
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
1 Electrolyze
1 Boros Charm
1 Noxious Revival
1 Vapor Snag
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell snare
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical extraction
2 Wer // Tear
1 Deflecting palm
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Jeskai Charm
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Molten Rain
1 Spreading Seas
Summary: Tier / Known decks total 4:6:2
- Affinity 2:1
- Merfolk 2:1
- Cheerios 2:1
- Jund 0:2, 2:0
- Grixis Zoo 1:2
- Grixis Delver 1:2
- RG Bushwacker 1:2
- Sun&Moon 1:2
- Abzan Coco 0:2
- Lanturn Control 1:1
- Doubling Season PW 1:1
Other odd decks total 5:0:0
Jund 2:0
- G1 drawn out, traded his 2-drops with removal and snaps until a mentor stuck long enough to put a monk into play, his painful truth dug only inquisitions, wasted on lands i kept in hand, and his dark confidant came too land and did too much damage
- G2 whittled his goyfs away with some fancy combat prowess shenanigans, then serum visioned into the SB Elspeth when we where both topdecking and flooding. He never drew into removal and the tokens chumped until i had the advantage.
- Finally won against BGX, but never saw liliana in this matchup, win felt good but don't know if it's repeatable.
- Always keep a land you don't need in hand was the lesson. there was a lot of whiffed inquisitions and thoughtseizes and tender-footing on opponent's part
Affinity 2:1
- G1: bolt their eot + noxious revival, then bolt, snap, bolt my turn and the board is clear + got a blocker... sick
- G2: i need to learn to deal with archbound ravager effectively, spell snare works wonders but i got infect-ed out
- G3: 1 for 1 and sometimes 2 for 1-ed them (forked bolt the pests and smaller guys), and countered what they top-decked after they ran out of gas
- favourable. Affinity doesn't feel hard to deal with
- land-hate felt more important than artifact hate as there is ample removal
Merfolk 2:1
- W/ Harbinger of the tides
- G1 super drawn out, harbinger on aether vial bounced my threats until he landed a master of tides
- G2 went down to 1 life before sticking a mentor and swamping him through serum visions and snaps
- G3, mentor stuck T3 and just swamped the board again
- don't feel it's a good matchup without the mentor. merfolk can blanket the board fast with protection, disruption, and islandwalk to boot...
- even with the sideboard, only engineered explosives felt right, and it wasn't enough really. Luck carried me most of the way.
- Need board wipe in the board?
Cheerios 2:1
- G1 3 removals + flipped jace not enough to keep him from sticking one paladin. I proceeded to flood and lose to silence and retract
- G2 spell snares stalled and one engineered explosive on 0 kept him spooked and let my snapcaster take him down to 10. Made a mistake and let him bounce the explosive on my eot in favour of keeping mana up for remand, bolt and path. Silence dropped, backed by swan song, but he whiffed with only 3 equipments left after landing a paladin. Engineered explosives back out on my turn and burned him slowly to death.
- G3 mulled to 5, delver, explosives and the one SB surgical extraction... not the best, but he was worse; mulled to 6 with the one land he'd have for the next 3 turns. Had to discard a silence which i extracted to trigger him conceding.
- Cheerios too inconsistent... and post-board there's good answers in explosives and extraction (extract a removed/countered paladin or retract is crippling). This means that we shouldn't see their T2-T3 kills very often. It's Silence mid to late game that's harder to deal with...
Grixis Zoo 1:2
- G1 didn't know what was going on and lost to a liliana
- G2 burned him to death with boros charm and snap pretty fast (boros charm pretty awesome, being able to hit liliana +1 too
- G3 went down to 1 life each, and his slaughter pac cleared the way for a goyf to end the game...
- felt if i played better it would've gone my way. opponent a much better player than i am
Grixis Delver 1:2
- G1 lost to getting shut out by discard and stubborn denial with a fat goyf out
- G2 he flipped 2 delvers but I had my own + kari zev's expertise + swiftspear for the win
- G3 2 goyfs on curve backed by stubborn denial and fatal push ended me
- missing that 4th path, didn't see one this match at all.
Jund 0:2
- G1, G2 both ended up being a top deck games and card for card it felt like they had more beatdown power
- their crazy amounts of removal + liliana + discard meant that seeing 3 delvers, a geist, and mentor by T4 wasn't enough to have any of them stick
- makes me miss my 3 leylines of sanctity in the SB, but it could be that i'm not playing this right...
RG bushwacker 1:2
- G1 two goblin guides backed by bushwacker and atarka's command made short work of my not keeping a hand with lots of removal
- G2 i smartend up and made removal count, kept an eye for atarka's, and 2 flipped delvers was enough to end it
- G3 came down to 1 life point, 1 turn difference, with both of us out of gas and top-decking for 3-4 turns
- Notes: land-hate was effective since they play so few, the one spreading seas' locked them out of colour for a while, and replacing itself is really useful
- 3 helixes helped but need to be able to keep a threat on the board against their removal.
- spell snare the mvp against atarka's command, goyf, burning tree +
- letting a goblin guide live sometimes work much more to our advantage.
Sun&Moon 1:2
- G1 Blood moon and two Nahiries back to back ended me pretty quickly when i only had removal and no counterspells in hand
- G2 I was too fast for him with 2 swiftspears and a flipped delver + bolt and noxious revival T4
- G3 drawn out... stopped elspeth from landing, but traded poorly with his removal. thought i had it with geist and no cards in hand but got hit with wrath.
- felt like a even matchup, with the losses more so my fault than the deck's.
- Should've guessed he would side out blood moon (or he just never drew them), and i should've sided in elspeth junior to have more staying power.
Abzan Coco 0:2
- G1 Flipped delver T2, pathed voice, he Coco-ed the swamped the board while i flooded
- G2 eternal witness, fatal push, and collective brutality gave him too much advantage
- Board wipes...
Lanturn Control 1:1
- G1 got locked out with him at 5 health
- G2 engineered explosvies + noxious revival saved the day
- G3 timed out
- Annoying, but can be dealt with.
Doubling Season 1:1
- G1 removed arbor elf T1 to slow him down, was able to stick a flipped delver and giest. He was only able to land 3 planes walkers, none of which stuck more than a turn.
- G2 game dragged on, if delver flipped i would've taken it, but alas, one turn away and i lost it to doubling season and tamyio
- G3 had to leave and didn't finish. Call it tie?
- Combo deck... can deal with it though if played carefully with disruption.
RG Bushwacker? 2:0
- a bad list that ran experiment 1 and thalia
- G1 kept 3 bolt 2 spell snare, and 1 land hand, scrying into a second land. That was too much for them already.
- G2 they fetched and shocked themselves half way to the grave, and their goblin
Monogreen Creatures 2:1
- Odd homebrew?, played Leatherback Baloth, rancor, vines, experiment one...
- G1 pathed and burned. Baloth hard to deal with G2 but between 3 paths, vapour snag, kari zev's expertise, and jeskai charm, it felt like i had the advantage overall. G3 supported that.
RW Expertise 2:1
- neat deck with brain in a jar, defense grid, the W and R expertises, beck // call, and chandra mindsculptor + another fuse card
- G1 they landed defense grid T2 and I never had more than 3 lands in play period, saw the expertises land an insane amount of tokens and draw, and game ended
- G2&G3 surgical extraction + snap + explosives made sure his "combos" didn't go off, or just blew the board up at x=0 when it did.
Odd games where i have no clue what they were running (not saying much). Versatility in the deck allowed me to handle the more unrefined builds tossed my way.
?? 2:1
?? 2:0
Though i feel a few of the losses are more my bad piloting, there's still a few things i'm going to change with the build before going for another stretch of recording the games. Having it all down on paper makes teaking a bit easier
playtesting and deck refinement is a demanding process as you mentioned and experienced.
i am surprised you didn't get a few games in versus Tron, also one of our not so good match ups.
my experience with my deck (jeskai delver) is 50:50 vs Jund and Grixis Delver. I have no issues versus Burn post sideboard and have little issue versus Naya Zoo / Bushwhacker variants bar a nut draw at their end.
Death Shadow Aggro can be a handful when they strip my hand of all removal and i have to chump block using what i have on board. I have stole a few games with Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix or Deflecting Palm, but i generally do not like to play against DSA or Infect because i always find myself playing too defensively.
I do okay against Affinity especially post sideboarding.
Merfolk is another deck i do not like going against. Islandwalk and 3-4 power merfolks by turn 4 always did me in. they simply run me out of removal and chip me down. granted, the last time i played against Merfolk was with the old fetch/shocklands mana base (pre kaladesh) so i wonder if with the post kaladesh mana base, would my match up be better.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
i both play with and against Skred for a few months before giving up Skred. It is one of our worst match up in G1 because that deck packs so much burn and wraths like Anger of the Gods. If you have the misfortune of playing against the Chalice of the Void variant, it gets worst because they usually Chalice for 2 or 3, nullifying most of the important cards in our deck. The Simian Spirit Guide version has a tendency of dropping a turn 2 Blood Moon which usually kills the game off at that point.
However, how well the Skred player does against our Jeskai Aggro/Tempo depends on how experienced the pilot is at times. Some opening hands for Skred are not playable and i have seen inexperienced pilots keep them and having their faces done in by turn 4. However, that deck has a tendency to play itself as its a really simple deck to play and tilts the favor to its pilot more if the pilot is an experienced Modern player.
I think the new Death Shadow Traverse variant tilts things slightly towards our favor because that build runs a lot less creatures. It still does pack the same discard package (thoughtseize and Iok) but them having less creatures is great for us as we will simply throw more burn to their face. =)
On the home front, i have been testing Jeskai Black Delver... i have to try out Fatal Push somehow!
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I agree with Need More DPS that this style of deck takes a TON of playtesting/practicing to become proficient with the deck and to tweak the deck to your personal liking or to your preferred meta. One thing that I have found in modern when it comes to be successful with URx tempo/midrange decks is that it is very important to get the deck to where you personally can perform the best with the deck.
Corey Burkhart is a great example and so is Ryan Overturf. I completely disagree with Ryan Overturf about the best way to build a delver deck in modern. He plays a full playset of spell snare and a ton of control elements (like 10+ counter spells). However, he has been very successful with his Delver deck. It fits the way he likes to play and he has put in the time to be great with the deck. I loved watching when Michael Majors tried to play Ryan Overturf's deck for starcity games. It was miserable and he went 2-3 and was probably lucky to do that well. It just didn't fit how majors likes to play. Corey Burkhart continues to show that grixis control can be very successful in modern, but he too plays a lot of one ofs and a lot of "pet cards". He plays two countersqualls main and did so well before anyone else did. He plays four Ancestal Visions main when everyone else thinks it "to slow". He also plays a Logic Knot and Engineered Explosives in his main deck. These are great examples of how someone can be successful in modern with a URx deck.
With that said, it appears to take more effort and practice to really do well with a URx deck in modern. Most players could pick up a Abzan list and do reasonably well and could see most of the lines to play. I think this is why so many people argue that twin needs to be unbanned. This is a topic I won't touch on because everyone has an opinion on twin, but I do think if more people put in more time with URx decks they would find that they can be very successful without twin.
NMDPS- Jeskai Black sounds very interesting. I can't wait to see your list. Path to Exile is tough to swallow in the non-aggro version because the last thing you want to do with a midrange deck is to ramp your opponent. Push will really help with that. With access to helix you can take a few hits from your lands. Keep us posted on your build
Currently a test version:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Izzet Staticaster
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Lightning Helix
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
3 Vapor Snag
3 Thought Scour
4 Remand
1 Logic Knot
1 Deprive
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Flooded Strand
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
Most people expect Path to Exile to be the prime removal but I surprise them with Fatal Push and Terminate. Lightning Helix has surprised a few as a finisher/blow out. I have a short list of cards I want to slip in:
1 Monastery Mentor for 1 Young Pyromancer or Izzet Straticaster
1 Saheeli Rai for 1 Young Pyromancer
1 Countersquall for 1 Remand
i generally am keeping the overall cmc as low as possible because of the 18 land manabase. if i were to add those 3 cards, i need to tweak the mana base to 19 lands and possible tweak the fast lands and shock lands mix.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
On a more constructive note, in my (Mardu) experience if you already have Bolt & Terminate then Path is a better 1 CMC removal spell than Push. Always nice to answer the bigger Eldrazi and other large threats cleanly.
and a badass sideboard.
i can drop young pyromancers altogether for Lingering Souls.
good point about vs eldrazi though... but i don't really like to ramp the opponent... so maybe have more terminates in the SB?
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Today I stumbled over an old and forgotten card and tested and online...and I had a blast! My opponents were surprised and impressed too.
The card is Test of Faith! Of course it's hard to resolve if your opponent plays Spell Snare and of course your opponent can respond by killing your creature (if it's not Geist) but if the timing is right this card wins games! One game my opponent blocked Geist with 3 tokens, well, thanks for permanently making Geist a 5/5. The other game I played against Jeskai Control and I had a delver in my starting hand but I waited until turn 3 to protect it either with Mana Leak or Test of Faith (both in hand). My opponent cast Lightning Helix, making Delver a 4/4, next turn it flipped and I had a 6/5 Flyer--I love it!
This card could even be the answer to Titanshift. If the cast Anger and your Geist attacks them for 9 next turn...I think that will ruin their day. I'll test it a little more for sure.
A weaker version of this effect but more efficient and a bit less narrow is Harm's Way.
Test of Faith and Harm's Way looks nice! The problem i'm having with my build was pointed out before; i'm not dedicated enough to aggro for the win and run out of steam for the longer games. Hence my problem with BGX builds that I feel play a better midrange and control game. With the next round, i'm going for more card value. Spells that replace themselves like Hindering Light, potential 2-for-1 spells like Swerve, etc. Test of Faith might be worth a try but i wouldn't know what to cut. Along the same lines i would think emerge unscathed or that 1 white mana instant that gives choice colour protection for white creatures would be a better catch all? That'd cover the damn fatal pushes I hate seeing.
I'm getting the hang of this deck too. Finally winning matches against Grixis builds. Like CurdBros mentioned, that's half of it, how good a player you are with the deck itself.
There is also Apostle's Blessing, an old favorite of mine. =)
Its always great to hear a member getting more positive results! Stay positive and give them hell even when you know the odds are against you! There is always new things to learn.
Adding on, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher are terrible cards to face against (having played against and with those things). The best answers against those 2 is counterspells as letting them resolve is just the feels bads.
I have been tinkering with a transformational sideboard with my Jeskai Black Delver deck. I been packing 4 Essence Scatter and 4 Surgical Extraction ever since Dredge became (and still is actually) a thing. The resultant splash damage is its also decent against Eldrazi as i always make it a point to counter the TKS or Reality Smasher and stripping them away later. Granted, tuning your sideboard extremely bias-ly is rather unsportsman-like but sometimes you just got to do it against those unfair decks.
Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
1 Deflecting Palm
2 Path to Exile
I made the uncomfortable choice of dropping Kor Firewalker from my deck as of late, it was a meta choice as the Burn players are playing Dredge now.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I always think it's a great idea to sideboard for the decks you are going to be playing against/your meta. There is no point playing stony silence if no one is playing affinity, tron, lantern in a specific person's meta. I like the board you chose. In addition, with black in your deck you can actually cast surgical extraction. You could also play Ceremonial Rejection if Eldrazi and or tron is prevalent in your meta.
That's great to hear your getting comfortable with the deck. That's a huge part of this archetype. The lines can be tough to decide when to become the aggressor or when to sit back. Some games I will be playing the control role and then have to switch to a burn/reach plan and burn them out if that's the way the game plays out. You will just keep getting better and better with your build.
I am also a huge fan of one ofs and cards that really make the deck play the way you like. I used to play Emerge Unscathed for a similar reason to your test of faith tech. Hindering Light is another great suggestion. Everytime I go through my jeskai box I see that card and think that has to be good, but never put it in. It may be time to give it a try.
Thanks for posting and I'm glad you have stuck with the deck and are now really mastering it. That's always great to hear.
I have also thought about putting Saheeli in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I am doing a testing group tonight and will try some new stuff. Let me know if there are any matchups you would like for me to test against and share notes. Enjoy SCG Indy this week!
If Tron Eldrazi and the new version of Death Shadow Aggro (i call it Turbo Jund) are available, give those a whirl. I don't think your games with DSA will be pretty, given that its Jund on steroids and our deck is traditionally 50/50 against it.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I like how Surgical Extraction won you the last match. This card has won me many games too lately, since I am running 2 copies in my SB. The best match was against one these retarded Fuse decks online. I was able to make Kari Zev's Expertise fizzle by bolting the target and removed all his copies with Surgical. Then my opponent tried to play Sram's Expertise but I was able to Spell Pierce it and remove these copies as well with Snap & Surgical. He conceded next turn. I just loved that game!
The BG zombie homebrew sounds interesting. Thankfully these decks are not very popular but I stumbled over a brew online that I just could't beat. Did four test games and lost all of them. My opponent was running 4x Geralf's Messenger, 4x Death Baron, 4x Cemetery Reaper and 4x Collected Company main board...
I have to admit that I am fed up with all the unfair strategies while I am playing a fair game and simply try to kill my opponent with Delver/Geist beatdown and burn. This time I want to discuss some possibilities to use unfair strategies in our Jeskai Tempo shells as well. Here are some ideas:
1. Add 4x Pact of the Titan & 4x Angel's Grace
Merits: Mana base doesn't need to be changed since we don't need to play high CMC cards. Best case scenario is a 4/4 Titan attacking on turn 2 and Angel's Grace can save us from loosing against opponent's combos. Problem: Titan dies to every removal.
2. Add 4x Madcap Experiment & 2x Platinum Emperion
Merits: Opponent needs to have/find an answer or he/she can't win. 8/8 body makes Emperion a good attacker. Inquisition can't stop this. Problem: Emperion dies to every removal (except Push). Experiment's CMC is 4 so we'll need 1-2 extra lands.
3. Play at least 3x Geist of Saint Traft, add 2x Worship & for example 2x Ascended Lawmage
Merits: Opponent needs to have/find an answer or he/she can't win, opponent most likely has no answer in game one. Problem: Worship can be removed or bounced with Cryptic or Wear/Tear and the plan crumbles against mass removal. Would need counter spells to fight over it.
4. Add 4x Shape Anew & 1x Blightsteel Colossus, replace at least 8 creatures
Merits: Blightsteel Colossus can win the game with one attack and there are very few answer to deal with him. Darksteel Colossus can be used too, to finish the opponent off after having dealt a lot of damage already. Problem: To function this strategy needs at least 3x Thopter Engineer (haste is very important) which aren't that good on their own. It also needs other creatures like Pia and Kiran Nalaar (which is good) and something like Thraben Inspector to make bolt-proof targets for Shape Anew. Also needs Izzet Charm to discard Colossus when he's stuck in hand. Also needs 22-23 lands so Delver would have to go.
What do you guys think about these four strategies? Which one seems most viable and why? Have you tried any of these before?
That's just my 2 cents, though. Keep in mind, I lose a lot of games.
I was very pleased with Worship though. Worship and a Lawmage in play won me a match against Baral Gifts Storm and a match against Jund. I didn't like the Lawmage's CMC4 cost however. Another (saver but slower) option would be Wall of Denial. With that card you even win against Anger/Whipflare/Elesh Norn. Lawmage on the other hand can pressure opponents real hard in combination with Geist and Clique to finish the game before they dig into an answer.
If you want another hexproof/Shroud option there is Deft Duelist.
As far as the combo's you mentioned I would like to add three more which I think are better:
5. Nahiri, the Harbinger + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (or Blightsteel Colossus) - only takes 5x slots and the PW provides utility by itself.
6. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Restoration Angel (with backup options like: Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Village Bell-Ringer).
7. Saheeli Rai + Felidar Guardian - it has been getting more attention lately but personally I don't think that it is better than the KiKi-Resto combo as the individiaul pieces are weaker on their own (Saheeli is arguably better than Kiki but Resto is much better than Felidar).
With that said, I really like where the modern meta is right now. I think a Simian Spirit Guide ban would make modern almost perfect. It's great to see grixis control, grixis delver, and abzan in the top 8 this week and to see jeskai control winning a tournament last week.
Ok back to the topic. Of the topics you talked about, I think worship is by far the best option. If you play 3-4 Geist and possibly add another 1 or 2 hexproof creatures, worship could be a great sideboard option.
As Dennis stated too, I did play a Nahiri/Inferno Titan package in my sideboard before for GBx decks and it worked very well so that is definitely something we could think about too. Shaun Mclaren played a very cool Saheeli Combo deck last night and did very well. I will have to watch the playback to see what worked well for him, but adding a couple of cards for an infinite combo makes sense as well.
I will be testing again tonight after work so I will take a look at a few of these ideas. I love when everyone starts brainstorming! I'm a brewer at heart
Hi CurdBros, I have to say that I absolutely agree with you. Our deck is the perfect shell for this strategy. Geist and Ascended Lawmage or Wall of Denial are very hard to remove when we run at least 2 Boros Charms which can make all our permanents indestructible. Emerge Unscathed can save Geist and Lawmage as well. And even if the board state allows no favorable attacks we can still burn the opponent out at some point if he can't kill us because of Worship. The version I am trying atm has 21 lands, 2 Worships, 5 hexproof creatures, and still runs 4 Delvers even though only 23 cards are left that flip them. I played more test games and so far I am 7-1 (including wins over the GP winning Death's Shadow deck (Leyline saved me there) and the Grixis Death's Shadow variant (quoting my opponent: "Damn Worship!")). So far I love how the deck is playing.
I really love your idea Stevomat. With all of the synergy from emerge unscathed, worship, hexproof creatures, etc you can play a generally great deck with a "easy" button of worship that gives you time to burn them out or finish them off. I like the worship idea best because it works much more seamlessly with the way the deck is already constructed. Right now I am not running Emerge, but I am going to have to give this idea a try. Someone could go really all-in with Geist, emerge, worship, and add Steel of the Godhead and possibly like Judges Familiar. It would probably be a delver deck at that point, but still a jeskai tempo deck. If you come up with something super successful you may have to start your own primer with "Geist Worship" or something like that (possibly bant with noble heirarch, but that's a different thread). Very cool though.
When you get a chance can you post your jeskai list you have been testing with?
2x Arid Mesa
3x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Inspiring Vantage
1x Wandering Fumarole
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
2x Boros Charm
4x Path to Exile
2x Remand
4x Serum Visions
1x Sleight of Hand
2x Spell Pierce
1x Emerge Unscathed
Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Wall of Denial
1x Vendilion Clique
Enchantments (2)
2x Worship
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Dispel
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Negate
2x Stony Silence
1x Wear/Tear
1x Celestial Purge
1x Deflecting Palm
1x Stone Rain
2x Anger of the Gods
I think it's exactly like you wrote CurdBros: "it works much more seamlessly with the way the deck is already constructed"! It plays the same way it always does. We pressure the opponent aggressively with turn 1 Delver, attack his life total with Bolt-Snap-Bolt or stall him with Remand-Snap-Remand, finish with flying attackers and Geist and burn. It's just that the opponent can't win without an answer
I don't like changing the deck to go "all in" because then the strength would turn to the deck's weakness. It would just become more prone to enchantment hate cards if we add Steel of the Godhead and Idyllic Tutor for example and other important cards would have to be cut...
That doesn't mean however that my list can't be tweaked and tuned. I few things on my mind:
I'd like to add a Moorland Haunt to be able to create more creatures but I don't know which land to cut. Maybe one of the fetches (since you can't fetch with Worship in play)? Glen Elendra Archmage could be good as a 1-of because of Persist and her ability which can protect Worship. Another idea would be to run Lawmages over Walls and add Disrupting Shoal because you'd have blue cards with CMC 1-4 to discard... Or maybe change something completely different? What do you guys think?