I'm not convinced the version that Jim Davis' crew ran at the SCG is the right version. It seems very all-in on the aggro plan, not really making use of the strengths of playing blue and white. It feels like they would have done better playing either Kiln-Fiend aggro or Naya Zoo or some other similar deck.
The reason I like the Jeskai Prowess / Aggro decks are that you get Serum Visions, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile in a deck with a solid aggressive game plan. I'm still indecisive about picking the exact version and chances are I'll end up with a slightly more mid-range version than most because of my card preferences. Perhaps I'll try a hybrid of our more aggressive build and a more Jeskai Control build.
I played last night using Davis's list. Deck felt great. I typically run Naya Burn but I felt like I more options with the Jeskai Aggro list as well as not living on the top decks as much. I love the evasion you get with Stormchaser Mage and Mantis Rider. I beat Infect and Jund but lost to UB Faeries because of mulligans. I really do want to experiment with the deck and see if cards like Serum Visions, Day's Undoing, other prowess creatures, and/or other more controlly blue can work in possibly a more tempo oriented deck. I feel like Jim's list is on the right track but it is far from being optimized.
I like testing different options and when i get my hands on the Curious Homunculus I will be testing him out, but I want to test another theory.. Burn. Now obviously Naya burn is the most common but would it be possible to create a Burn package for Jeskai that can function efficiently? We would still retain Delver as a huge T1 threat and by T3 you can either play geist or the Mantis Rider. We are in the right colour combinations, yes we do not get Atarka's Command but we can run Jeskai Charm. I was thinking something like this.
You can keep counters in the SB for G2 in which we can go a bit more control if required. I kept Geist in as if i am taping out T3 to cast a creature i want him to be un-removable outside of board wipes. Jeskai Charm adds 1 more way to keep us in the game with some life gain which along side the Helix can be crucial against a Mirror match or any faster deck. We take full advantage of Delver as he will flip fairly easily, Swiftspear is great in this sort of aggressive build, Electrolyze is a tad slow and you could probably replace with something like a Skullcrack. I know this version wouldn't really be a "tempo" style in the MB but more of a Aggro, the serums main though add the extra prowess and help you dig for your burn spells, Probe is still worth running for free information and extra prowess especially before you drop a geist.
I think side boarding could be fairly easy to.. I know it would disable us having a lot of the 1-ofs as the counter spells we normally have MB would need to be in the SB for those matches. but a sideboard i think is still doable, personally mine would run 4-7 Counter spells and then i have 8 slots left over for things like Leyline, or Rest in Piece, Declaration, Deflecting Palm etc.
Great convo going on right now. Welcome JDeezy! I prefer a slightly more aggressive version myself, but tend towards tempo rather than pure aggro. With that said, I do think that you and Rafiq are correct that a very aggressive version can be competitive. I agree with Cronax that Jim Davis's does not appear to me to be the correct way to build the deck, but it is a great version of the deck. The exclusion of Serum Visions is the hardest thing for me to swallow along with not having Path to Exile.
I always say to have an game plan for a deck and each game in particular, however, I do not like playing decks that are extremely linear. I have never been a fan of burn for that reason. I don't like knowing that there are a few sideboard cards that can just end my game before it starts. In addition, in an 17-18 land deck I think Serum Visions is hugely important. i can't tell you how many times I have kept a one land hand with a serum visions and dug three cards deep to get to my second land. If you do that without a serum visions your looking at missing a land drop for two turns and most likely losing the game.
Another question to ask is "Am I playing a worse version of another deck". I don't think Jim Davis's deck falls into this category because it is a different deck from burn and has a better sideboard in my opinion. However, once they added goblin guide and cut serum visions they began to get into the "worse burn deck" territory. With all of this said, the deck can perform very well in a creature heavy linear meta game because it has access to very efficient creatures and very efficient removal. In the end, I do think a tempo style jeskai prowess deck is superior, but not my much. In addition, the Davis list will be more consistent in terms of draws due to the number of 4 ofs and will be easier to master.
Rafiq- I like the burn list. It forgoes counter magic for added speed and consistency. You could also have a couple of Negates and/or Spell Pierce/Dispel in the sideboard. I personally would cut 4 burn spells for counter magic, but that defeats the purpose :). Keep us posted on how it goes.
Dennis- I don't have a lot of practice with this style, but I will give my thoughts anyways :). With a higher density of counter magic I would probably stick with Young P in the mainboard. I do think Cryptic Command is the better choice and is amazing with Brain in the Jar. I'm really not sure on the counter magic. This does seem to tend slightly more towards control so you may want to try the deck sometime with a counter magic suite of 2-3 Mana Leak and 1-2 Spell Snare just to see if that performs better than remand. The only way to know will be testing. With only brain in the jar as a target I think Izzet Charm is a better option for filtering. The added utility makes up for the lack of actual card advantage in my opinion. I think the Anger of the Gods is fine for Dredge. In addition, you can bounce their board with Thing in the Ice and also use supreme verdict so I think that should be enough. Finally, I also don't think you need electrolyze or helix. You may want one copy of Timely reinforcements in your board, but with all of the sweepers and the two Blessed Alliances you should be good against aggro decks.
I really hope this deck works out because it is such a unique brew. Keep us posted and best of luck!
After playing the deck at a recent Modern FNM some of the people I play with pointed out that Geist of Saint Traft, while powerful, may not really be what the version I was playing wants to be doing. Even such a powerful card makes it hard to justify tapping out on turn 3 since it means you can't make any tempo plays that turn. I really like running the card, but I see their point...does anyone share the doubt that the Geist may not be the right card for the deck or am I overlooking an angle that makes it good enough to override this concern?
After playing the deck at a recent Modern FNM some of the people I play with pointed out that Geist of Saint Traft, while powerful, may not really be what the version I was playing wants to be doing. Even such a powerful card makes it hard to justify tapping out on turn 3 since it means you can't make any tempo plays that turn. I really like running the card, but I see their point...does anyone share the doubt that the Geist may not be the right card for the deck or am I overlooking an angle that makes it good enough to override this concern?
After playing the deck at a recent Modern FNM some of the people I play with pointed out that Geist of Saint Traft, while powerful, may not really be what the version I was playing wants to be doing. Even such a powerful card makes it hard to justify tapping out on turn 3 since it means you can't make any tempo plays that turn. I really like running the card, but I see their point...does anyone share the doubt that the Geist may not be the right card for the deck or am I overlooking an angle that makes it good enough to override this concern?
my issue with geist has always been it needs to attack to spawn the 4/4 token. and many times tapping out to cast him is a feel bad. he makes a bad blocker being a 2/2. given that modern now is an extremely creature heavy format, many times the ground gets cluttered and giest just sits there. Brimaz, King of Oreskos is somewhat a better card in some aspects but it is white heavy in a deck that is blue and red heavy.
my issues with giest is one of the reasons i favor the flying heavy jeskai aggro/tempo lists. delver + stormchaser mage + mantis rider makes a great baseline. fill the rest up with snapcaster mage and monastery swiftspear for the aggressive line up. the only issue now is you want to go burn heavy or tempo heavy / mix in your spells line up.
giest is great for midrange jeskai tbh.
i do not like goblin guide because it grants your opponent card advantage.
I am running a very similar list. It has been performing very well for me. I do agree with D90Dennis14 that 4 Geist is probably too many. I always run 3 because he is legendary and hexproof so he is really tough to kill once he is in play. In addition, with a ton of cantrips and because he is our top end play we almost always see at least one copy in a given game. I would definitely cut one.
I agree with Dennis about the spells to add too. I absolutely love Slip Through Space and Distortion Strike in this deck with Geist. Some people don't like them because they are not the best top deck. If that is a worry definitely side on the slip through space side because you can always cycle it. Emerge Unscathed is also great as a protection spell, but I haven't played it in a bit because I like the cantrip that slip through space has in a prowess build. I couldn't tell you how many times these cards have won me games. I would say cut a Geist and a Snare or Leak and add two slip through space and see how it does.
I have thought in the past about running Geist out of the sideboard and that is also definitely an option. If you do I would add two Bedlam Reveler into the main deck and run three Geist of Saint Traft out of the sideboard. The only problem is that Reveler doesn't play that well with counter magic so maybe Vendilion Clique would be a better choice. I personally think Geist fits the deck very well. Especially since you play 6 maindeck counter spells so you can side into a a more control/midrange oriented Geist deck.
Also have you ever thought about running a Vapor Snag in place of one Lightning Helix. That card is very versatile and is awesome in the tempo games. I hope some of this helps!
I am running a very similar list. It has been performing very well for me. I do agree with D90Dennis14 that 4 Geist is probably too many. I always run 3 because he is legendary and hexproof so he is really tough to kill once he is in play. In addition, with a ton of cantrips and because he is our top end play we almost always see at least one copy in a given game. I would definitely cut one.
I agree with Dennis about the spells to add too. I absolutely love Slip Through Space and Distortion Strike in this deck with Geist. Some people don't like them because they are not the best top deck. If that is a worry definitely side on the slip through space side because you can always cycle it. Emerge Unscathed is also great as a protection spell, but I haven't played it in a bit because I like the cantrip that slip through space has in a prowess build. I couldn't tell you how many times these cards have won me games. I would say cut a Geist and a Snare or Leak and add two slip through space and see how it does.
I have thought in the past about running Geist out of the sideboard and that is also definitely an option. If you do I would add two Bedlam Reveler into the main deck and run three Geist of Saint Traft out of the sideboard. The only problem is that Reveler doesn't play that well with counter magic so maybe Vendilion Clique would be a better choice. I personally think Geist fits the deck very well. Especially since you play 6 maindeck counter spells so you can side into a a more control/midrange oriented Geist deck.
Also have you ever thought about running a Vapor Snag in place of one Lightning Helix. That card is very versatile and is awesome in the tempo games. I hope some of this helps!
I was writing out my decklist off the top of my head, turns out I was wrong: I'd already cut the 4th Geist of Saint Traft for another Seachrome Coast and since I only had 2 Snapcaster Mages when I last played the deck I had 2 Vapor Snag in that spot.
In an effort to lower the mana requirements a little I've replaced the 2 Mana Leaks with Spell Pierces. I've cut a Gitaxian Probe and the 19th land I was playing for the two extra Snapcaster Mages. This leaves me with the following list:
I'd like to add another land back in but I'm not sure what I'll cut for it, perhaps a Lightning Helix to help lower the curve a little more.
I'm definitely considering Slip through Space if I do decide to stay on the current path, though cutting a counter for it feels bad. I'm not sold on the sideboard yet. Deflecting Palm is a holdover from my Burn sideboard but I'm starting to think that I don't need it in this deck since I can catch Infect with removal and counters and with mainboard Path to Exile Tron decks are a lot less scary so I really only need it against Emrakul/Ulamog decks. I was already looking for a space to stick Anger of the Gods so I'm thinking I might drop Palm for 2 copies and something else. I'd like to make room for the [c]Slip through Space[/s]s as well.
Perhaps my approach to the sideboard is just plain wrong because I'm too hung up on what the Burn sideboard needed...could I trouble the people who play a similar list to post their sideboards so I can get some ideas?
I am running a very similar list. It has been performing very well for me. I do agree with D90Dennis14 that 4 Geist is probably too many. I always run 3 because he is legendary and hexproof so he is really tough to kill once he is in play. In addition, with a ton of cantrips and because he is our top end play we almost always see at least one copy in a given game. I would definitely cut one.
I agree with Dennis about the spells to add too. I absolutely love Slip Through Space and Distortion Strike in this deck with Geist. Some people don't like them because they are not the best top deck. If that is a worry definitely side on the slip through space side because you can always cycle it. Emerge Unscathed is also great as a protection spell, but I haven't played it in a bit because I like the cantrip that slip through space has in a prowess build. I couldn't tell you how many times these cards have won me games. I would say cut a Geist and a Snare or Leak and add two slip through space and see how it does.
I have thought in the past about running Geist out of the sideboard and that is also definitely an option. If you do I would add two Bedlam Reveler into the main deck and run three Geist of Saint Traft out of the sideboard. The only problem is that Reveler doesn't play that well with counter magic so maybe Vendilion Clique would be a better choice. I personally think Geist fits the deck very well. Especially since you play 6 maindeck counter spells so you can side into a a more control/midrange oriented Geist deck.
Also have you ever thought about running a Vapor Snag in place of one Lightning Helix. That card is very versatile and is awesome in the tempo games. I hope some of this helps!
I was writing out my decklist off the top of my head, turns out I was wrong: I'd already cut the 4th Geist of Saint Traft for another Seachrome Coast and since I only had 2 Snapcaster Mages when I last played the deck I had 2 Vapor Snag in that spot.
In an effort to lower the mana requirements a little I've replaced the 2 Mana Leaks with Spell Pierces. I've cut a Gitaxian Probe and the 19th land I was playing for the two extra Snapcaster Mages. This leaves me with the following list:
I'd like to add another land back in but I'm not sure what I'll cut for it, perhaps a Lightning Helix to help lower the curve a little more.
I'm definitely considering Slip through Space if I do decide to stay on the current path, though cutting a counter for it feels bad. I'm not sold on the sideboard yet. Deflecting Palm is a holdover from my Burn sideboard but I'm starting to think that I don't need it in this deck since I can catch Infect with removal and counters and with mainboard Path to Exile Tron decks are a lot less scary so I really only need it against Emrakul/Ulamog decks. I was already looking for a space to stick Anger of the Gods so I'm thinking I might drop Palm for 2 copies and something else. I'd like to make room for the [c]Slip through Space[/s]s as well.
Perhaps my approach to the sideboard is just plain wrong because I'm too hung up on what the Burn sideboard needed...could I trouble the people who play a similar list to post their sideboards so I can get some ideas?
I REALLY like the changes you made to the deck. It allows you to go very aggressive if you want to and you can also play a true tempo role.
As for your sideboard, I would definitely cut one copy of Deflecting Palm. I absolutely love deflecting palm and I also play two copeis in my board, but they aren't great to draw in multiples and we often have other sideboard cards for matchups that we side the palms in against. I have a more "toolbox" sideboard with more one of's. I have been playing a Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately and that has been a ton of fun, but only comes in against the grindy matchups.
What do you side the electrolyzes against? I had one in my board for a short time, but found Echoing Truth to be more useful and a also Engineered Explosives. They help attack the wide decks like tokens and zoo, but also work well against some of the fringe stuff like lantern, boggles, etc and the echoing truth can help to bounce a random Blood Moon, Worship, planeswalker, etc. I would love to hear about electrolyze because I would like to have a copy main and/or in the board.
I don't think you need the skullcracks at all. Unless you like to side into a straight burn style deck. I would probably run Stony Silence in their place. However, if you don't see a lot of affinity, tron, and lantern you don't need them. In addition, they are a little slow so there are other options for those slots.
How do you normally do against Jund/Abzan? You could always side a Monastery Mentor or two or Young Pyromancer or two. Mentor has been amazing aganist Jund lately for me. You could also go with Bedlam Reveler as well.
Let me know what you think, what you often play against, and how you prefer to side (do you typically like being a tempo guy or do you like aggroing out most matchups?). I know it depends on the matchup, but most of us have a slight preference. If you don't that is fine too. It's always fun to talk sideboard options.
Jeskai Prowess (Mentor version) just won on camera at the SCG Invitational against jeff Hoogland. They only played one game of the match, but it's the final game of round 8 if you want to see it. Great TV time for Jeskai Prowess.
Monastery Mentor has been performing very well for me lately as well so I am going to try two copies of him to see how it goes. Does anyone else play him?
Well back to the drawing board i go again... Everytime i think about the deck i am not happy, it has put up numbers and it is doing good but it is just not what I am looking for (not tested the Homunculus yet). I believe i have found what my issue is with the deck though, I have strayed to far from what I want / what I built this deck for.. Geist of Saint Traft this card is the entire reason i started playing the modern format and i originally found this forum as it is most in line with what style / archetype i want to play. I am not a fan of the Jeskai Flash, Jeskai Control, UW Control or even Team Geist.. I love the tempo aspect and having an insane amount of spells along side the T1 Delver for pressure. I need to work at changing the deck more, which may mean i need to go into more counter spells? not sure, I kind of want to take Team Geist, and merge it with Delver... so, lower the land count, cut 2 snaps and up the spell package... I do not like clique either.
Now one possibility i have thought of is to replace the Bedlam Revelers with Restoration angels but i loose a draw 3 card and I do not think Ancestral fits the deck making the Revelers still really strong. I know the deck will be more designed for a longer game rather then a quicker one but i do not want to go to far into midrange territory I.E it is probably to much to run 2 Reveler, 2 Angel, and 2 Planeswalkers that are 4CMC when i am only running 18 lands. The other option around that would be to cut creatures (specifically my Pyromancers) and add the Angel and 1 Land, or 2 land and find something else to cut not sure..
Sorry i know i post a lot about changing my deck but i want to find what suits my play style the best and I know that it is not the Team Geist list, nor the control lists. I also know my list since it runs both the Delver and Geist should theoretically fit what I am looking for as is.. but sadly it is not.. I know strange but the people in the forum are amazing so... can anyone help me find a way to make a more tempo oriented Geist/Delver list?
When I started playing this deck it was kind of generic, I wasn't really 100% comfortable playing the deck and started changing it, in fact I changed it a lot, up to the point where it wanted to accomplish way to many things at once.
At that point I really struggled with the deck, match ups that felt kind of 50/50 or favourable felt unwinnable at that point and I was really discouraged further playing with the deck, but I thought to myself why I started playing this type of deck in the first place and built the deck from scratch again.
Actually the reason for my to play this deck are very similar to yours. I just love geist and I love playing with as many Spells as possible, being able to be the aggressor or the control player, being proactive or reactive, long story short, I just love this deck/this archetype.
What I am saying is, I know what problems you have and I think at some point we all have been there.
The best way for me to start from the beginning is the build the core of the deck, things I really want to play. For me this would be a Playset of snaps, Bolts, delver, as many geists as possible (3 are perfect because we don't really want multiples that often), 3 young p, some remands, paths and snags.
And the rest of the deck are basically flex spots you can use for Spells that fit your meta and preferences.
I think I am playing more counterspells than most of us here, MB as well as SB.
2 Remand, 1 Logic knot, 2 spell snare mainboard, with a full set of snapcasters. And 2 spell pierce, 1 dispel, 1 negate SB and right now I wouldn't a thing, the remands could very well be mana leaks but I just prefer Remand kind off.
With 3 geists and a more tempo/controling shell in general 19 lands is the sweet spot for me.
The question you have to ask yourself is, what kind of playstyle fits me the most, a little slower with a more controlling build, or pure aggro with a few 3 cmc creatures at the top of your curve.
My list didn't change that much since the last time I posted it, but if you are interested it would be no problem for me to post it.
No I don't mind a slow start up to my games as I actually enjoy my deck the most when I land a Geist and just control the board state which is why I was thinking to play the angels as they work with Geist and snapcaster. Spell wise I kinda feel like going back to where I started, I originally had 4 bolt, 4 path, And 4 helix. I have dropped 2 helix with everyone's suggestions before. Currently I have 6 counter spells 4 remand 1 negate and 1 Ojutai's Command for testing purposes. I do not like mana leak and prefer the full 4 remand and I generally countering spells so I play the negate and let my burn and snags be removal.
I wouldn't mind seeing your list again to see where I can make some changes. What is your opinion on the Angel? Like I above good with Geist and snap and reveler if he stays in the deck and a 3/4 flying body is a nice threat to
Jeskai Prowess (Mentor version) just won on camera at the SCG Invitational against jeff Hoogland. They only played one game of the match, but it's the final game of round 8 if you want to see it. Great TV time for Jeskai Prowess.
Monastery Mentor has been performing very well for me lately as well so I am going to try two copies of him to see how it goes. Does anyone else play him?
i have tested Monastery Mentor a few months back when the meta was bolt heavy. He is like Young Pyromancer, if he is not dealt with the turn he cames down, he will take over the game (you just need 1 solid turn or 2). I prefer him in a midrange Jeskai tempo deck though. Mentor was a bit of a thing until Nahiri came along and turned the archetype on its head
Hoogland if he is playing Kiki-Chord doesn't like ultra value creatures like Mentor because that deck doesn't run Anger of the Gods or sweepers and has to rely on going over the top with flyers or try to out value you on the ground or lean on spamming path to exile with eternal witness to respawn which can be difficult. If Hoogland is running an updated list with Lightning Bolts, Kolaghan's Command and Collective Brutality he might edge out if he has the right removal in his grip at the right time.
FWIW, i do like Mentor more than Geist but i think its more of a playstyle issue for me.
I REALLY like the changes you made to the deck. It allows you to go very aggressive if you want to and you can also play a true tempo role.
As for your sideboard, I would definitely cut one copy of Deflecting Palm. I absolutely love deflecting palm and I also play two copeis in my board, but they aren't great to draw in multiples and we often have other sideboard cards for matchups that we side the palms in against. I have a more "toolbox" sideboard with more one of's. I have been playing a Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately and that has been a ton of fun, but only comes in against the grindy matchups.
What do you side the electrolyzes against? I had one in my board for a short time, but found Echoing Truth to be more useful and a also Engineered Explosives. They help attack the wide decks like tokens and zoo, but also work well against some of the fringe stuff like lantern, boggles, etc and the echoing truth can help to bounce a random Blood Moon, Worship, planeswalker, etc. I would love to hear about electrolyze because I would like to have a copy main and/or in the board.
I don't think you need the skullcracks at all. Unless you like to side into a straight burn style deck. I would probably run Stony Silence in their place. However, if you don't see a lot of affinity, tron, and lantern you don't need them. In addition, they are a little slow so there are other options for those slots.
How do you normally do against Jund/Abzan? You could always side a Monastery Mentor or two or Young Pyromancer or two. Mentor has been amazing aganist Jund lately for me. You could also go with Bedlam Reveler as well.
Let me know what you think, what you often play against, and how you prefer to side (do you typically like being a tempo guy or do you like aggroing out most matchups?). I know it depends on the matchup, but most of us have a slight preference. If you don't that is fine too. It's always fun to talk sideboard options.
I do reasonably well against Jund, I was hoping to get another chance to try the deck against the Jund player in my LGS last FNM but he was playing an Abzan list instead. I lost because I drew too many lands in the second match but on the whole I think the deck had ample game against it. I might make some room in the sideboard for Young Pyromancers since I have a playset of those already. I also have Bedlam Revelers but I haven't felt like I needed that kind of 'refilling power' yet, the deck generally does pretty well in topdeck mode for me since there are very few dead draws.
My style of play so far is to use the first few turns to tap out for aggressive plays while the opponent is setting up and then transition into a more tempo/control mode. This approach works well against midrange and control decks so far but I've not had an opportunity to test against a 'real' aggressive deck yet. The only aggressive deck I faced last FNM was a relatively new player with a mono-G Stompy list, where I used my removal aggressively to keep his board clear but I could have gone aggressive with my bolts and helixes since I had one or more flipped Delver of Secrets in play and they don't care about his blockers.
I haven't given much thought to whether I side aggressively or tempo-oriented, I try to evaluate all the cards in the 75 by their merits and then decide what cards are the worst and which sideboard cards would be better in the matchup. I'm probably playing a fairly aggressive style so far since my previous deck was Naya Burn.
On the Monastery Mentor note, I've played some matches with him on xmage and haven't been convinced yet. He tends to eat removal quickly but even when he doesn't I don't usually get to cast enough spells to really make use of him since we run out of gas. I do think there's a list to be made where he can shine though, that list would play more 1-mana spells and perhaps a bit of pump and Temur Battlerage.
Another thing I've been considering is to make room in the 75 for 2 copies of Mutagenic Growth. It can help protect our creatures from bolts, keep Geist of Saint Traft alive against blockers and generally help do those last few points of damage a little sooner. For a aggro/tempo deck, becoming half a turn faster like that seems pretty strong. I don't want too many though or I'd lose the ability to switch between aggro and tempo on the fly.
I think I'm a little too attached to my current sideboard for my own good right now. My experience playing Burn against Dredge has left me unwilling to play anything less than 2 pieces of graveyard hate and since Rest in Peace is the most effective version I'm running that atm. I should probably replace it with another card but I've yet to get a good chance to test my current list against the deck. With two Anger of the Gods in the sideboard as well as the two pieces of GY hate I think I'd probably do pretty well. I've been going back and forth on the Dispels and Negates. Dispel seems really efficient against decks that have enough targets but I haven't been siding it in all that often in actual matches so perhaps I should drop them. Negate is there in case there are no targets for Spell Snare or if I need an answer to planeswalkers but again I haven't felt like I needed them in actual matches so far.
One of the decks I really want to test against is Infect, I think we are probably favoured in the matchup but if that doesn't turn out to be the case I'll try to make room in the sideboard for a Sudden Shock.
Overall, the more I play this version of the deck the more I like it. At first I was a little afraid that the deck might be trying to do too many things at once with the aggressive spells alongside tempo spells and Geists, but the high quality of the spells combined with their versatile nature means that the deck is actually quite good at playing topdeck wars. My perception is that aggressive and tempo decks are generally bad at topdeck wars since by then they're looking to have decided the game already.
I REALLY like the changes you made to the deck. It allows you to go very aggressive if you want to and you can also play a true tempo role.
As for your sideboard, I would definitely cut one copy of Deflecting Palm. I absolutely love deflecting palm and I also play two copeis in my board, but they aren't great to draw in multiples and we often have other sideboard cards for matchups that we side the palms in against. I have a more "toolbox" sideboard with more one of's. I have been playing a Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately and that has been a ton of fun, but only comes in against the grindy matchups.
What do you side the electrolyzes against? I had one in my board for a short time, but found Echoing Truth to be more useful and a also Engineered Explosives. They help attack the wide decks like tokens and zoo, but also work well against some of the fringe stuff like lantern, boggles, etc and the echoing truth can help to bounce a random Blood Moon, Worship, planeswalker, etc. I would love to hear about electrolyze because I would like to have a copy main and/or in the board.
I don't think you need the skullcracks at all. Unless you like to side into a straight burn style deck. I would probably run Stony Silence in their place. However, if you don't see a lot of affinity, tron, and lantern you don't need them. In addition, they are a little slow so there are other options for those slots.
How do you normally do against Jund/Abzan? You could always side a Monastery Mentor or two or Young Pyromancer or two. Mentor has been amazing aganist Jund lately for me. You could also go with Bedlam Reveler as well.
Let me know what you think, what you often play against, and how you prefer to side (do you typically like being a tempo guy or do you like aggroing out most matchups?). I know it depends on the matchup, but most of us have a slight preference. If you don't that is fine too. It's always fun to talk sideboard options.
I do reasonably well against Jund, I was hoping to get another chance to try the deck against the Jund player in my LGS last FNM but he was playing an Abzan list instead. I lost because I drew too many lands in the second match but on the whole I think the deck had ample game against it. I might make some room in the sideboard for Young Pyromancers since I have a playset of those already. I also have Bedlam Revelers but I haven't felt like I needed that kind of 'refilling power' yet, the deck generally does pretty well in topdeck mode for me since there are very few dead draws.
My style of play so far is to use the first few turns to tap out for aggressive plays while the opponent is setting up and then transition into a more tempo/control mode. This approach works well against midrange and control decks so far but I've not had an opportunity to test against a 'real' aggressive deck yet. The only aggressive deck I faced last FNM was a relatively new player with a mono-G Stompy list, where I used my removal aggressively to keep his board clear but I could have gone aggressive with my bolts and helixes since I had one or more flipped Delver of Secrets in play and they don't care about his blockers.
I haven't given much thought to whether I side aggressively or tempo-oriented, I try to evaluate all the cards in the 75 by their merits and then decide what cards are the worst and which sideboard cards would be better in the matchup. I'm probably playing a fairly aggressive style so far since my previous deck was Naya Burn.
On the Monastery Mentor note, I've played some matches with him on xmage and haven't been convinced yet. He tends to eat removal quickly but even when he doesn't I don't usually get to cast enough spells to really make use of him since we run out of gas. I do think there's a list to be made where he can shine though, that list would play more 1-mana spells and perhaps a bit of pump and Temur Battlerage.
Another thing I've been considering is to make room in the 75 for 2 copies of Mutagenic Growth. It can help protect our creatures from bolts, keep Geist of Saint Traft alive against blockers and generally help do those last few points of damage a little sooner. For a aggro/tempo deck, becoming half a turn faster like that seems pretty strong. I don't want too many though or I'd lose the ability to switch between aggro and tempo on the fly.
I think I'm a little too attached to my current sideboard for my own good right now. My experience playing Burn against Dredge has left me unwilling to play anything less than 2 pieces of graveyard hate and since Rest in Peace is the most effective version I'm running that atm. I should probably replace it with another card but I've yet to get a good chance to test my current list against the deck. With two Anger of the Gods in the sideboard as well as the two pieces of GY hate I think I'd probably do pretty well. I've been going back and forth on the Dispels and Negates. Dispel seems really efficient against decks that have enough targets but I haven't been siding it in all that often in actual matches so perhaps I should drop them. Negate is there in case there are no targets for Spell Snare or if I need an answer to planeswalkers but again I haven't felt like I needed them in actual matches so far.
One of the decks I really want to test against is Infect, I think we are probably favoured in the matchup but if that doesn't turn out to be the case I'll try to make room in the sideboard for a Sudden Shock.
Overall, the more I play this version of the deck the more I like it. At first I was a little afraid that the deck might be trying to do too many things at once with the aggressive spells alongside tempo spells and Geists, but the high quality of the spells combined with their versatile nature means that the deck is actually quite good at playing topdeck wars. My perception is that aggressive and tempo decks are generally bad at topdeck wars since by then they're looking to have decided the game already.
I prefer to play a very similar style to the one you play. I totally agree with your post about the deck. I often have a hard time articulating exactly how the deck functions to people who don't actively play the deck. Sometimes people who look at the list say "You shouldn't play Geist in an aggro deck". Then I have to explain that it's not necessarily an aggro deck. I think you explained it very well. The deck starts aggressively putting pressure on the opponent. During that time we maintain control over the board by removing threats, countering spells, and/or protecting our threats. Then in the later turns (4-6 are later turns for our deck), we are either trying to burn them out or use unblockable spells for the final damage and/or gain value off of snapcaster, mentor, young p, bedlam reveler, saheeli, chandra, etc. The deck style that you and I use plays more like a tempo deck that can go aggro then an aggro deck.
I have also been thinking about working mutagenic growth into the deck. I haven't found room yet, but it's one of the cards on deck.
I have found that sideboards are best when they really match the player and what they feel comfortable with. There are so many options that you really just want to play what feels best for you. You can't pass up must play cards like rest in peace when the entire meta is graveyard based, but for the most part sideboards in a tempo style deck are an extension of the 60 main deck rather than hate cards. I think Sudden Shock is a great option though. There are a lot of linear decks against which sudden shock is great especially infect. I think Mazeron mentioned this as well.
I also totally agree with you about top decking. With the recent additions of Bedlam Reveler, Saheeli Rai, and of course Snapcaster Mage we actually have a great chance in a top deck war. In addition, the early pressure we put on the opponent makes all of our burn spells great top decks because they are often lethal. Finally, any of the cantrips, especially serum visions, allow us to top deck to our gas spells.
It looks like Jeskai Aggro/Prowess has reached a point with three specific types of deck. Here they are in no particular order:
Aggro
JESKAI AGGRO. BUILDER: MAXDAWG.
1st (5-0) in Competitive Modern Constructed League — 04-Dec-2016
The tempo version varies but typically always has delver, snapcaster, geist of saint traft. The supporting cast varies between swiftspear, young pyromancer, bedlam reveler, monastery mentor, vendilion clique, and spell queller.
The aggro list is by far the most popular and has the most high finishes. As long as probe and growth avoid the ban list, this style of list should continue to do well. I think it's only a matter of time before the other styles put up even more top finishes. Let me know if I missed anything.
I really like that Tempo list, it is nice to see that it is possible to run a lower land count with higher CMC spells as i notice that list has 8 guaranteed 3cmc+ spells and 3 snaps which are generally 3cmc or more. I have been testing around a bit (mostly just Goldfishing on Tappedout) to try and get my deck more Geist-centric while still maintaining Delver and the tempo. I have had to up my land count to 19 as during my testing i found that 20 land was to much despite my higher CMCs i was just getting flooded, and 18 while still strong just seemed a tad less reliable so 19 is where I am at for the moment. I have added in the Restoration Angels as well since i am running more counter magic the Reveler has been less then optimal. I am also thinking to maybe dedicate some SB slots to have Reveler in it and to make my SB able to go more control with counter spells and maybe even Spell Queller, but also have the ability to turn more aggressive if need be. Without including my SB see below for what I was currently goldfishing with and let me know your thoughts. Keep in mind I want to make my list Tempo but utilizing Geist more then i was prior.
One card in the list i am not entierly sure if it belongs in the MB or as a SB is Chandra, she is still great for getting the extra points of damage in, or getting extra red mana to cast 2 Lightning Bolt, or 1 Bolt and 1 Helix with a white source untapped, and her 4dmg to creature is still valuable for removal to get Geist through. Restoration Angel basically replaced my revelers in the MB with this list as she is still a great threat as a 3/4 flyer, saves Geist, and can even be used to generate additional value off my snapcaster mage. I also upped the Geist back to 4, i know the legendary rule kind of sucks to have extra in hand but if i do not have an angel i can let geist get killed in combat get the 4 dmg from the angel and cast another geist. If it is actually dead in my hand it is because the opponent cannot deal with the one i have on board which means i probably have the game anyway.
Like i said in my earlier post I do not want to become a full control deck, and I do not want to be TeamGeist as i do not like them. I like having a lower land count and having tempo. I really like the spell package Jeskai has to offer and I like having the 4x bolt, helix, path. I think the list is kind of similar to the Tempo list you posted Curdbros except i am not using mentor and have a lower creature count.
I really like that Tempo list, it is nice to see that it is possible to run a lower land count with higher CMC spells as i notice that list has 8 guaranteed 3cmc+ spells and 3 snaps which are generally 3cmc or more. I have been testing around a bit (mostly just Goldfishing on Tappedout) to try and get my deck more Geist-centric while still maintaining Delver and the tempo. I have had to up my land count to 19 as during my testing i found that 20 land was to much despite my higher CMCs i was just getting flooded, and 18 while still strong just seemed a tad less reliable so 19 is where I am at for the moment. I have added in the Restoration Angels as well since i am running more counter magic the Reveler has been less then optimal. I am also thinking to maybe dedicate some SB slots to have Reveler in it and to make my SB able to go more control with counter spells and maybe even Spell Queller, but also have the ability to turn more aggressive if need be. Without including my SB see below for what I was currently goldfishing with and let me know your thoughts. Keep in mind I want to make my list Tempo but utilizing Geist more then i was prior.
One card in the list i am not entierly sure if it belongs in the MB or as a SB is Chandra, she is still great for getting the extra points of damage in, or getting extra red mana to cast 2 Lightning Bolt, or 1 Bolt and 1 Helix with a white source untapped, and her 4dmg to creature is still valuable for removal to get Geist through. Restoration Angel basically replaced my revelers in the MB with this list as she is still a great threat as a 3/4 flyer, saves Geist, and can even be used to generate additional value off my snapcaster mage. I also upped the Geist back to 4, i know the legendary rule kind of sucks to have extra in hand but if i do not have an angel i can let geist get killed in combat get the 4 dmg from the angel and cast another geist. If it is actually dead in my hand it is because the opponent cannot deal with the one i have on board which means i probably have the game anyway.
Like i said in my earlier post I do not want to become a full control deck, and I do not want to be TeamGeist as i do not like them. I like having a lower land count and having tempo. I really like the spell package Jeskai has to offer and I like having the 4x bolt, helix, path. I think the list is kind of similar to the Tempo list you posted Curdbros except i am not using mentor and have a lower creature count.
I too like the tempo list Rafiq. I have found that Geist gives the deck an added dimension without sacrificing the rest of the decks gameplan. The top end of the deck is the part that I am still working on and it appears that's the area you are currently questioning too.
That way I gain a bit more draw consistency and I should already be running three snapcasters anyways. He is the best blue creature in modern. Also both of them work very well with Vapor Snag and Saheeli Rai. I also added another land to the deck because I feel 19 lands is more consistent and flooding is not as much of an issue. Here is what I ended up on:
I like the split of one Slip Through Space and one Distortion Strike. It has worked well for me, but I would probably suggest just running two copies of whichever the player prefers.
A card I am currently thinking about adding is Peek. I might cut either a path or a vapor snag because we have so much creature removal and possibly another card to give peek a try. It would be nice to have an instant speed cantrip to flash back with snapcaster mage for value. Wizards just needs to answer my Christmas wish and reprint Opt!
As for your build, I think you're spot on. To be honest, it looks great as it is. I would probably cut one of the planeswalkers and put them into your sideboard for more grindy matchups. That's what I did with Monastery Mentor. I also think you would be better suited with a copy of Boros Charm rather than 4 copies of Lightning Helix. It's just such a versatile card. Maybe if you do cut the planeswalker you could give a one of unblockable spell a try. Before you make any changes give it a go as you built it because it looks really great just the way you built it. Just keep these ideas in the back of your mind if something feels wrong.
Keep us posted on how the Resto angels and cryptics go. Those are cards a ton of people would love to play if they work well. Resto works wonderfully with snapcaster mage and Geist so I assume she will be very good.
I too like the tempo list Rafiq. I have found that Geist gives the deck an added dimension without sacrificing the rest of the decks gameplan. The top end of the deck is the part that I am still working on and it appears that's the area you are currently questioning too.
That way I gain a bit more draw consistency and I should already be running three snapcasters anyways. He is the best blue creature in modern. Also both of them work very well with Vapor Snag and Saheeli Rai. I also added another land to the deck because I feel 19 lands is more consistent and flooding is not as much of an issue. Here is what I ended up on:
I like the split of one Slip Through Space and one Distortion Strike. It has worked well for me, but I would probably suggest just running two copies of whichever the player prefers.
A card I am currently thinking about adding is Peek. I might cut either a path or a vapor snag because we have so much creature removal and possibly another card to give peek a try. It would be nice to have an instant speed cantrip to flash back with snapcaster mage for value. Wizards just needs to answer my Christmas wish and reprint Opt!
As for your build, I think you're spot on. To be honest, it looks great as it is. I would probably cut one of the planeswalkers and put them into your sideboard for more grindy matchups. That's what I did with Monastery Mentor. I also think you would be better suited with a copy of Boros Charm rather than 4 copies of Lightning Helix. It's just such a versatile card. Maybe if you do cut the planeswalker you could give a one of unblockable spell a try. Before you make any changes give it a go as you built it because it looks really great just the way you built it. Just keep these ideas in the back of your mind if something feels wrong.
Keep us posted on how the Resto angels and cryptics go. Those are cards a ton of people would love to play if they work well. Resto works wonderfully with snapcaster mage and Geist so I assume she will be very good.
I'm not a great fan of 1-of cards in most decks since I never draw them at the right time. The same goes for 'hedging' like with the Slip through Space and Distortion Strike, as you already pointed out. In testing it's fine to test the split out but for the final version I agree that one should pick one to stick with, as my experience with hedging is that you always draw the one that's worst for the situation you're in. It might be that I am too biased though since I am very focused on consistency both in MTG and in my professional life :D.
In the same vein I would advocate running 4 Snapcaster Mages, especially since bolt-snap-bolt is still a legitimate win-con. I'd rather drop a Gitaxian Probe since I don't need to see my opponent's hand *that* often, 2 life can be a real cost and the cases where I really need the free prowess trigger is fairly narrow. I am however considering making room for 1 more land somewhere since I agree 18 might just be too few to consistently cast Geist of Saint Traft on-curve (and the math by Frank Karsten backs this up, I currently play 1 too few white source to reliably have one on T3). I'll have to decide between a 4th Arid Mesa, a 2nd Seachrome Coast or an Eiganjo Castle for extra Geist protection.
I considered Chandra, Torch of Defiance but I think she doesn't fit the tempo plan well enough to go into the main and RR might be a little too constricting on the mana. Saheeli Rai might fit a little better since if she dies you've still gotten a scry out of the deal and the ideal case is copying a Geist of Saint Traft which seems like a pretty awesome deal.
Second week in a row I played the Jim Davis version of Jeskai Aggro. I went 3-1 beating Slivers, Madcap Moon, and Grixis Control while losing to GR Tron. Deck still feels great and I am preferring it over playing Naya Burn.
When I was watching Davis on camera playing at the SCG open, the commentator made mention that he looked to be aggressively mulliganing if he didn't have a one drop creature to play turn one. I kept this in mind while playing this deck and it feels like my results reflect this observation. I was way ahead when I was able to drop creatures turn one and two while being behind if I didn't have the turn one creature play. I also like that I can fight through lightning bolts because of Mutagenic Growth (I was able to do this a couple of times while playing).
The only card that feels slightly out of place in the deck is Mantis Rider. Don't get me wrong, I love playing it and getting a good laugh when my opponent sees the card but I just feel very meh about the card. It has won me games where I had to go over the top to get the damage in but the card just feels average. I don't know, maybe I need more play with the card to feel better about it.
I'm hoping to develop an aggro/tempo build that has been discussed in this thread and I look forward to the continuation of the conversation. I have this gut feeling that there is a right mix of aggro, tempo, and control in Jeskai that hasn't been refined yet to make an awesome Jeskai deck.
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I played last night using Davis's list. Deck felt great. I typically run Naya Burn but I felt like I more options with the Jeskai Aggro list as well as not living on the top decks as much. I love the evasion you get with Stormchaser Mage and Mantis Rider. I beat Infect and Jund but lost to UB Faeries because of mulligans. I really do want to experiment with the deck and see if cards like Serum Visions, Day's Undoing, other prowess creatures, and/or other more controlly blue can work in possibly a more tempo oriented deck. I feel like Jim's list is on the right track but it is far from being optimized.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Bedlam Reveler
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Path to Exile
2 Jeskai Charm
2 Electrolyze
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian probe
Land
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Steam vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
You can keep counters in the SB for G2 in which we can go a bit more control if required. I kept Geist in as if i am taping out T3 to cast a creature i want him to be un-removable outside of board wipes. Jeskai Charm adds 1 more way to keep us in the game with some life gain which along side the Helix can be crucial against a Mirror match or any faster deck. We take full advantage of Delver as he will flip fairly easily, Swiftspear is great in this sort of aggressive build, Electrolyze is a tad slow and you could probably replace with something like a Skullcrack. I know this version wouldn't really be a "tempo" style in the MB but more of a Aggro, the serums main though add the extra prowess and help you dig for your burn spells, Probe is still worth running for free information and extra prowess especially before you drop a geist.
I think side boarding could be fairly easy to.. I know it would disable us having a lot of the 1-ofs as the counter spells we normally have MB would need to be in the SB for those matches. but a sideboard i think is still doable, personally mine would run 4-7 Counter spells and then i have 8 slots left over for things like Leyline, or Rest in Piece, Declaration, Deflecting Palm etc.
I always say to have an game plan for a deck and each game in particular, however, I do not like playing decks that are extremely linear. I have never been a fan of burn for that reason. I don't like knowing that there are a few sideboard cards that can just end my game before it starts. In addition, in an 17-18 land deck I think Serum Visions is hugely important. i can't tell you how many times I have kept a one land hand with a serum visions and dug three cards deep to get to my second land. If you do that without a serum visions your looking at missing a land drop for two turns and most likely losing the game.
Another question to ask is "Am I playing a worse version of another deck". I don't think Jim Davis's deck falls into this category because it is a different deck from burn and has a better sideboard in my opinion. However, once they added goblin guide and cut serum visions they began to get into the "worse burn deck" territory. With all of this said, the deck can perform very well in a creature heavy linear meta game because it has access to very efficient creatures and very efficient removal. In the end, I do think a tempo style jeskai prowess deck is superior, but not my much. In addition, the Davis list will be more consistent in terms of draws due to the number of 4 ofs and will be easier to master.
Rafiq- I like the burn list. It forgoes counter magic for added speed and consistency. You could also have a couple of Negates and/or Spell Pierce/Dispel in the sideboard. I personally would cut 4 burn spells for counter magic, but that defeats the purpose :). Keep us posted on how it goes.
Dennis- I don't have a lot of practice with this style, but I will give my thoughts anyways :). With a higher density of counter magic I would probably stick with Young P in the mainboard. I do think Cryptic Command is the better choice and is amazing with Brain in the Jar. I'm really not sure on the counter magic. This does seem to tend slightly more towards control so you may want to try the deck sometime with a counter magic suite of 2-3 Mana Leak and 1-2 Spell Snare just to see if that performs better than remand. The only way to know will be testing. With only brain in the jar as a target I think Izzet Charm is a better option for filtering. The added utility makes up for the lack of actual card advantage in my opinion. I think the Anger of the Gods is fine for Dredge. In addition, you can bounce their board with Thing in the Ice and also use supreme verdict so I think that should be enough. Finally, I also don't think you need electrolyze or helix. You may want one copy of Timely reinforcements in your board, but with all of the sweepers and the two Blessed Alliances you should be good against aggro decks.
I really hope this deck works out because it is such a unique brew. Keep us posted and best of luck!
Which version of the deck are you running?
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Geist of Saint Traft
Cantrips(8):
4x Serum Visions
4x Gitaxian Probe
Removal(12):
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
2x Remand
2x Mana Leak
Manabase(18):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Spirebluff Canals
3x Arid Mesa
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Mountain
1x Island
1x Plains
Thats the version I'm running.
I would cut the probes for 2x more lands and 2x spells like Vapor Snag or Slip Through Space or Emerge Unscathed to help Geist get through damage.
my issue with geist has always been it needs to attack to spawn the 4/4 token. and many times tapping out to cast him is a feel bad. he makes a bad blocker being a 2/2. given that modern now is an extremely creature heavy format, many times the ground gets cluttered and giest just sits there. Brimaz, King of Oreskos is somewhat a better card in some aspects but it is white heavy in a deck that is blue and red heavy.
my issues with giest is one of the reasons i favor the flying heavy jeskai aggro/tempo lists. delver + stormchaser mage + mantis rider makes a great baseline. fill the rest up with snapcaster mage and monastery swiftspear for the aggressive line up. the only issue now is you want to go burn heavy or tempo heavy / mix in your spells line up.
giest is great for midrange jeskai tbh.
i do not like goblin guide because it grants your opponent card advantage.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Hi Cronax,
I am running a very similar list. It has been performing very well for me. I do agree with D90Dennis14 that 4 Geist is probably too many. I always run 3 because he is legendary and hexproof so he is really tough to kill once he is in play. In addition, with a ton of cantrips and because he is our top end play we almost always see at least one copy in a given game. I would definitely cut one.
I agree with Dennis about the spells to add too. I absolutely love Slip Through Space and Distortion Strike in this deck with Geist. Some people don't like them because they are not the best top deck. If that is a worry definitely side on the slip through space side because you can always cycle it. Emerge Unscathed is also great as a protection spell, but I haven't played it in a bit because I like the cantrip that slip through space has in a prowess build. I couldn't tell you how many times these cards have won me games. I would say cut a Geist and a Snare or Leak and add two slip through space and see how it does.
I have thought in the past about running Geist out of the sideboard and that is also definitely an option. If you do I would add two Bedlam Reveler into the main deck and run three Geist of Saint Traft out of the sideboard. The only problem is that Reveler doesn't play that well with counter magic so maybe Vendilion Clique would be a better choice. I personally think Geist fits the deck very well. Especially since you play 6 maindeck counter spells so you can side into a a more control/midrange oriented Geist deck.
Also have you ever thought about running a Vapor Snag in place of one Lightning Helix. That card is very versatile and is awesome in the tempo games. I hope some of this helps!
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/chandras-rifles-modern-boros-tempoaggro/
R/W Prowess Tempo (based off of a Jeskai Way list though)
I was writing out my decklist off the top of my head, turns out I was wrong: I'd already cut the 4th Geist of Saint Traft for another Seachrome Coast and since I only had 2 Snapcaster Mages when I last played the deck I had 2 Vapor Snag in that spot.
In an effort to lower the mana requirements a little I've replaced the 2 Mana Leaks with Spell Pierces. I've cut a Gitaxian Probe and the 19th land I was playing for the two extra Snapcaster Mages. This leaves me with the following list:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
Cantrips(7):
4x Serum Visions
3x Gitaxian Probe
Removal(14):
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
2x Vapor Snag
Counters(6):
2x Spell Snare
2x Remand
2x Spell Pierce
4x Flooded Strand
4x Spirebluff Canals
3x Arid Mesa
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Mountain
1x Island
1x Plains
3x Deflecting Palm
2x Rest in Peace
2x Skullcrack
2x Wear // Tear
2x Dispel
2x Electrolyze
2x Negate
I'd like to add another land back in but I'm not sure what I'll cut for it, perhaps a Lightning Helix to help lower the curve a little more.
I'm definitely considering Slip through Space if I do decide to stay on the current path, though cutting a counter for it feels bad. I'm not sold on the sideboard yet. Deflecting Palm is a holdover from my Burn sideboard but I'm starting to think that I don't need it in this deck since I can catch Infect with removal and counters and with mainboard Path to Exile Tron decks are a lot less scary so I really only need it against Emrakul/Ulamog decks. I was already looking for a space to stick Anger of the Gods so I'm thinking I might drop Palm for 2 copies and something else. I'd like to make room for the [c]Slip through Space[/s]s as well.
Perhaps my approach to the sideboard is just plain wrong because I'm too hung up on what the Burn sideboard needed...could I trouble the people who play a similar list to post their sideboards so I can get some ideas?
I REALLY like the changes you made to the deck. It allows you to go very aggressive if you want to and you can also play a true tempo role.
As for your sideboard, I would definitely cut one copy of Deflecting Palm. I absolutely love deflecting palm and I also play two copeis in my board, but they aren't great to draw in multiples and we often have other sideboard cards for matchups that we side the palms in against. I have a more "toolbox" sideboard with more one of's. I have been playing a Chandra, Torch of Defiance lately and that has been a ton of fun, but only comes in against the grindy matchups.
What do you side the electrolyzes against? I had one in my board for a short time, but found Echoing Truth to be more useful and a also Engineered Explosives. They help attack the wide decks like tokens and zoo, but also work well against some of the fringe stuff like lantern, boggles, etc and the echoing truth can help to bounce a random Blood Moon, Worship, planeswalker, etc. I would love to hear about electrolyze because I would like to have a copy main and/or in the board.
I don't think you need the skullcracks at all. Unless you like to side into a straight burn style deck. I would probably run Stony Silence in their place. However, if you don't see a lot of affinity, tron, and lantern you don't need them. In addition, they are a little slow so there are other options for those slots.
How do you normally do against Jund/Abzan? You could always side a Monastery Mentor or two or Young Pyromancer or two. Mentor has been amazing aganist Jund lately for me. You could also go with Bedlam Reveler as well.
Let me know what you think, what you often play against, and how you prefer to side (do you typically like being a tempo guy or do you like aggroing out most matchups?). I know it depends on the matchup, but most of us have a slight preference. If you don't that is fine too. It's always fun to talk sideboard options.
Monastery Mentor has been performing very well for me lately as well so I am going to try two copies of him to see how it goes. Does anyone else play him?
Now one possibility i have thought of is to replace the Bedlam Revelers with Restoration angels but i loose a draw 3 card and I do not think Ancestral fits the deck making the Revelers still really strong. I know the deck will be more designed for a longer game rather then a quicker one but i do not want to go to far into midrange territory I.E it is probably to much to run 2 Reveler, 2 Angel, and 2 Planeswalkers that are 4CMC when i am only running 18 lands. The other option around that would be to cut creatures (specifically my Pyromancers) and add the Angel and 1 Land, or 2 land and find something else to cut not sure..
Sorry i know i post a lot about changing my deck but i want to find what suits my play style the best and I know that it is not the Team Geist list, nor the control lists. I also know my list since it runs both the Delver and Geist should theoretically fit what I am looking for as is.. but sadly it is not.. I know strange but the people in the forum are amazing so... can anyone help me find a way to make a more tempo oriented Geist/Delver list?
No I don't mind a slow start up to my games as I actually enjoy my deck the most when I land a Geist and just control the board state which is why I was thinking to play the angels as they work with Geist and snapcaster. Spell wise I kinda feel like going back to where I started, I originally had 4 bolt, 4 path, And 4 helix. I have dropped 2 helix with everyone's suggestions before. Currently I have 6 counter spells 4 remand 1 negate and 1 Ojutai's Command for testing purposes. I do not like mana leak and prefer the full 4 remand and I generally countering spells so I play the negate and let my burn and snags be removal.
I wouldn't mind seeing your list again to see where I can make some changes. What is your opinion on the Angel? Like I above good with Geist and snap and reveler if he stays in the deck and a 3/4 flying body is a nice threat to
i have tested Monastery Mentor a few months back when the meta was bolt heavy. He is like Young Pyromancer, if he is not dealt with the turn he cames down, he will take over the game (you just need 1 solid turn or 2). I prefer him in a midrange Jeskai tempo deck though. Mentor was a bit of a thing until Nahiri came along and turned the archetype on its head
Hoogland if he is playing Kiki-Chord doesn't like ultra value creatures like Mentor because that deck doesn't run Anger of the Gods or sweepers and has to rely on going over the top with flyers or try to out value you on the ground or lean on spamming path to exile with eternal witness to respawn which can be difficult. If Hoogland is running an updated list with Lightning Bolts, Kolaghan's Command and Collective Brutality he might edge out if he has the right removal in his grip at the right time.
FWIW, i do like Mentor more than Geist but i think its more of a playstyle issue for me.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Its the Goblin Guide version with a full set of Mantis Riders similar to what Jim Davis was running a few weeks back I reckon.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Electrolyze comes in against decks that play Lingering Souls or generally have enough targets. I might try Echoing Truth in place of the Skullcracks.
I do reasonably well against Jund, I was hoping to get another chance to try the deck against the Jund player in my LGS last FNM but he was playing an Abzan list instead. I lost because I drew too many lands in the second match but on the whole I think the deck had ample game against it. I might make some room in the sideboard for Young Pyromancers since I have a playset of those already. I also have Bedlam Revelers but I haven't felt like I needed that kind of 'refilling power' yet, the deck generally does pretty well in topdeck mode for me since there are very few dead draws.
My style of play so far is to use the first few turns to tap out for aggressive plays while the opponent is setting up and then transition into a more tempo/control mode. This approach works well against midrange and control decks so far but I've not had an opportunity to test against a 'real' aggressive deck yet. The only aggressive deck I faced last FNM was a relatively new player with a mono-G Stompy list, where I used my removal aggressively to keep his board clear but I could have gone aggressive with my bolts and helixes since I had one or more flipped Delver of Secrets in play and they don't care about his blockers.
I haven't given much thought to whether I side aggressively or tempo-oriented, I try to evaluate all the cards in the 75 by their merits and then decide what cards are the worst and which sideboard cards would be better in the matchup. I'm probably playing a fairly aggressive style so far since my previous deck was Naya Burn.
On the Monastery Mentor note, I've played some matches with him on xmage and haven't been convinced yet. He tends to eat removal quickly but even when he doesn't I don't usually get to cast enough spells to really make use of him since we run out of gas. I do think there's a list to be made where he can shine though, that list would play more 1-mana spells and perhaps a bit of pump and Temur Battlerage.
Another thing I've been considering is to make room in the 75 for 2 copies of Mutagenic Growth. It can help protect our creatures from bolts, keep Geist of Saint Traft alive against blockers and generally help do those last few points of damage a little sooner. For a aggro/tempo deck, becoming half a turn faster like that seems pretty strong. I don't want too many though or I'd lose the ability to switch between aggro and tempo on the fly.
I think I'm a little too attached to my current sideboard for my own good right now. My experience playing Burn against Dredge has left me unwilling to play anything less than 2 pieces of graveyard hate and since Rest in Peace is the most effective version I'm running that atm. I should probably replace it with another card but I've yet to get a good chance to test my current list against the deck. With two Anger of the Gods in the sideboard as well as the two pieces of GY hate I think I'd probably do pretty well. I've been going back and forth on the Dispels and Negates. Dispel seems really efficient against decks that have enough targets but I haven't been siding it in all that often in actual matches so perhaps I should drop them. Negate is there in case there are no targets for Spell Snare or if I need an answer to planeswalkers but again I haven't felt like I needed them in actual matches so far.
One of the decks I really want to test against is Infect, I think we are probably favoured in the matchup but if that doesn't turn out to be the case I'll try to make room in the sideboard for a Sudden Shock.
Overall, the more I play this version of the deck the more I like it. At first I was a little afraid that the deck might be trying to do too many things at once with the aggressive spells alongside tempo spells and Geists, but the high quality of the spells combined with their versatile nature means that the deck is actually quite good at playing topdeck wars. My perception is that aggressive and tempo decks are generally bad at topdeck wars since by then they're looking to have decided the game already.
I prefer to play a very similar style to the one you play. I totally agree with your post about the deck. I often have a hard time articulating exactly how the deck functions to people who don't actively play the deck. Sometimes people who look at the list say "You shouldn't play Geist in an aggro deck". Then I have to explain that it's not necessarily an aggro deck. I think you explained it very well. The deck starts aggressively putting pressure on the opponent. During that time we maintain control over the board by removing threats, countering spells, and/or protecting our threats. Then in the later turns (4-6 are later turns for our deck), we are either trying to burn them out or use unblockable spells for the final damage and/or gain value off of snapcaster, mentor, young p, bedlam reveler, saheeli, chandra, etc. The deck style that you and I use plays more like a tempo deck that can go aggro then an aggro deck.
I have also been thinking about working mutagenic growth into the deck. I haven't found room yet, but it's one of the cards on deck.
I have found that sideboards are best when they really match the player and what they feel comfortable with. There are so many options that you really just want to play what feels best for you. You can't pass up must play cards like rest in peace when the entire meta is graveyard based, but for the most part sideboards in a tempo style deck are an extension of the 60 main deck rather than hate cards. I think Sudden Shock is a great option though. There are a lot of linear decks against which sudden shock is great especially infect. I think Mazeron mentioned this as well.
I also totally agree with you about top decking. With the recent additions of Bedlam Reveler, Saheeli Rai, and of course Snapcaster Mage we actually have a great chance in a top deck war. In addition, the early pressure we put on the opponent makes all of our burn spells great top decks because they are often lethal. Finally, any of the cantrips, especially serum visions, allow us to top deck to our gas spells.
It looks like Jeskai Aggro/Prowess has reached a point with three specific types of deck. Here they are in no particular order:
Aggro
JESKAI AGGRO. BUILDER: MAXDAWG.
1st (5-0) in Competitive Modern Constructed League — 04-Dec-2016
4 Mantis Rider
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Twisted Image
2 Vapor Snag
4 Serum Visions
2 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
Mentor
— JESKAI DELVER. BUILDER: IAN ANDREW.
1st in Grand Prix Dallas/Fort Worth 2016 - 9 to 64 Decklists — 06-Nov-2016
Maindeck (60)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Boros Charm
2 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Vapor Snag
4 Serum Visions
3 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Inspiring Vantage
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
Tempo
MTG Deck — WUR TRAFT. BUILDER: TAKASE RYOUSUKE.
Top8 in 晴れる屋モダン杯 [32 Players] — 06-Nov-2016
Maindeck (60)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Lightning Angel
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Valorous Stance
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
The tempo version varies but typically always has delver, snapcaster, geist of saint traft. The supporting cast varies between swiftspear, young pyromancer, bedlam reveler, monastery mentor, vendilion clique, and spell queller.
The aggro list is by far the most popular and has the most high finishes. As long as probe and growth avoid the ban list, this style of list should continue to do well. I think it's only a matter of time before the other styles put up even more top finishes. Let me know if I missed anything.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vepor Snag
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
One card in the list i am not entierly sure if it belongs in the MB or as a SB is Chandra, she is still great for getting the extra points of damage in, or getting extra red mana to cast 2 Lightning Bolt, or 1 Bolt and 1 Helix with a white source untapped, and her 4dmg to creature is still valuable for removal to get Geist through. Restoration Angel basically replaced my revelers in the MB with this list as she is still a great threat as a 3/4 flyer, saves Geist, and can even be used to generate additional value off my snapcaster mage. I also upped the Geist back to 4, i know the legendary rule kind of sucks to have extra in hand but if i do not have an angel i can let geist get killed in combat get the 4 dmg from the angel and cast another geist. If it is actually dead in my hand it is because the opponent cannot deal with the one i have on board which means i probably have the game anyway.
Like i said in my earlier post I do not want to become a full control deck, and I do not want to be TeamGeist as i do not like them. I like having a lower land count and having tempo. I really like the spell package Jeskai has to offer and I like having the 4x bolt, helix, path. I think the list is kind of similar to the Tempo list you posted Curdbros except i am not using mentor and have a lower creature count.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vepor Snag
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
One card in the list i am not entierly sure if it belongs in the MB or as a SB is Chandra, she is still great for getting the extra points of damage in, or getting extra red mana to cast 2 Lightning Bolt, or 1 Bolt and 1 Helix with a white source untapped, and her 4dmg to creature is still valuable for removal to get Geist through. Restoration Angel basically replaced my revelers in the MB with this list as she is still a great threat as a 3/4 flyer, saves Geist, and can even be used to generate additional value off my snapcaster mage. I also upped the Geist back to 4, i know the legendary rule kind of sucks to have extra in hand but if i do not have an angel i can let geist get killed in combat get the 4 dmg from the angel and cast another geist. If it is actually dead in my hand it is because the opponent cannot deal with the one i have on board which means i probably have the game anyway.
Like i said in my earlier post I do not want to become a full control deck, and I do not want to be TeamGeist as i do not like them. I like having a lower land count and having tempo. I really like the spell package Jeskai has to offer and I like having the 4x bolt, helix, path. I think the list is kind of similar to the Tempo list you posted Curdbros except i am not using mentor and have a lower creature count.
There are so many choices in Bedlam Reveler, Restoration Angel, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Saheeli Rai, Monastery Mentor, Cryptic Command, Ojutai's Command, Elspeth, Knight Errant, Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique, and the list goes on. I am currently trying to find the correct number of 3 CMC and 4 CMC cards for my list and the correct top end spells that compliment my earlier plan. For a long time (since Reveler was printed) I have been running two copies of Bedlam Reveler at the top end with two copies of Snapcaster Mage and a Saheeli Rai. For the last month or so I have also been running one copy of Monastery Mentor. Like I tend to do, I think I was trying to do a little too much with the top end of my main deck. So I changed the deck by:
-1 Monastery Mentor
+1 Snapcaster Mage
That way I gain a bit more draw consistency and I should already be running three snapcasters anyways. He is the best blue creature in modern. Also both of them work very well with Vapor Snag and Saheeli Rai. I also added another land to the deck because I feel 19 lands is more consistent and flooding is not as much of an issue. Here is what I ended up on:
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
2 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
1 Unsubstantiate
2 Vapor Snag
3 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Distortion Strike
1 Slip Through Space
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
I like the split of one Slip Through Space and one Distortion Strike. It has worked well for me, but I would probably suggest just running two copies of whichever the player prefers.
A card I am currently thinking about adding is Peek. I might cut either a path or a vapor snag because we have so much creature removal and possibly another card to give peek a try. It would be nice to have an instant speed cantrip to flash back with snapcaster mage for value. Wizards just needs to answer my Christmas wish and reprint Opt!
As for your build, I think you're spot on. To be honest, it looks great as it is. I would probably cut one of the planeswalkers and put them into your sideboard for more grindy matchups. That's what I did with Monastery Mentor. I also think you would be better suited with a copy of Boros Charm rather than 4 copies of Lightning Helix. It's just such a versatile card. Maybe if you do cut the planeswalker you could give a one of unblockable spell a try. Before you make any changes give it a go as you built it because it looks really great just the way you built it. Just keep these ideas in the back of your mind if something feels wrong.
Keep us posted on how the Resto angels and cryptics go. Those are cards a ton of people would love to play if they work well. Resto works wonderfully with snapcaster mage and Geist so I assume she will be very good.
I'm not a great fan of 1-of cards in most decks since I never draw them at the right time. The same goes for 'hedging' like with the Slip through Space and Distortion Strike, as you already pointed out. In testing it's fine to test the split out but for the final version I agree that one should pick one to stick with, as my experience with hedging is that you always draw the one that's worst for the situation you're in. It might be that I am too biased though since I am very focused on consistency both in MTG and in my professional life :D.
In the same vein I would advocate running 4 Snapcaster Mages, especially since bolt-snap-bolt is still a legitimate win-con. I'd rather drop a Gitaxian Probe since I don't need to see my opponent's hand *that* often, 2 life can be a real cost and the cases where I really need the free prowess trigger is fairly narrow. I am however considering making room for 1 more land somewhere since I agree 18 might just be too few to consistently cast Geist of Saint Traft on-curve (and the math by Frank Karsten backs this up, I currently play 1 too few white source to reliably have one on T3). I'll have to decide between a 4th Arid Mesa, a 2nd Seachrome Coast or an Eiganjo Castle for extra Geist protection.
I considered Chandra, Torch of Defiance but I think she doesn't fit the tempo plan well enough to go into the main and RR might be a little too constricting on the mana. Saheeli Rai might fit a little better since if she dies you've still gotten a scry out of the deal and the ideal case is copying a Geist of Saint Traft which seems like a pretty awesome deal.
When I was watching Davis on camera playing at the SCG open, the commentator made mention that he looked to be aggressively mulliganing if he didn't have a one drop creature to play turn one. I kept this in mind while playing this deck and it feels like my results reflect this observation. I was way ahead when I was able to drop creatures turn one and two while being behind if I didn't have the turn one creature play. I also like that I can fight through lightning bolts because of Mutagenic Growth (I was able to do this a couple of times while playing).
The only card that feels slightly out of place in the deck is Mantis Rider. Don't get me wrong, I love playing it and getting a good laugh when my opponent sees the card but I just feel very meh about the card. It has won me games where I had to go over the top to get the damage in but the card just feels average. I don't know, maybe I need more play with the card to feel better about it.
I'm hoping to develop an aggro/tempo build that has been discussed in this thread and I look forward to the continuation of the conversation. I have this gut feeling that there is a right mix of aggro, tempo, and control in Jeskai that hasn't been refined yet to make an awesome Jeskai deck.