I myself am running a pretty similar version and I am pretty interested in this list.
The 4 paths are very interesting from my point of view, because as you mentioned the deck seems more mid-rangy and versus abzan/jund giving them extra mana can be very devastating for us.
The lack of pyromancer does confuse me although, I see mentor dealing more damage, but pyro comes out one turn earlier and can be protected.
What are your thoughts on this one?
I was a bit surprised with the list when I first saw it as well. Especially running only 19 lands with seven 3 cmc spells not including 3 snapcasters and bedlam reveler which are often at least 3 cmc spells. So there is a total of 13 spells that cost 3 CMC or more and an additional nine 2 CMC spells. The deck has twenty 1 CMC spells (including gitaxian probe).
Playing more powerful cards also mitigates the downside of Path to Exile. He can run 4 paths because he can top deck so many powerful cards. In addition, the builder runs only Remand as his counter magic spell of choice. Without Mana Leak and Spell Pierce, path is more effective as well. I assume if the game stays close it can end very quickly with a geist or mentor on the board especially powered by a mentor. I was just thinking how well mentor works with Saheeli Rai's second ability. I am super excited to add a mentor to my sideboard for grindy matchups.
I prefer to be slightly more aggressive than this deck, but for anyone who prefers to be slightly more midrange or for anyone who has a lot of jund/abzan in their meta and very little combo/tron, this is probably the best version of the deck you could run. You can't argue with results and this deck won the entire event so obviously it has some legs. I am excited to see what everyone on here comes up with after seeing this build.
Jeskai prowess is looking great right now!
I completely agree, the fact of only using Remand as the counter magic helps the 4-of Path to Exile I run the same thing. Leak and Spell PIerce are just horrible with Path there is nothing around that, atleast with the remand while they may recast what they use we got a cantrip out of it and tapped some mana (which against a control shell is a turning point) If i can make my opponant tap out to play the same spell twice i can easily turn the corner, or we have a UW control player in our meta, if i can counter his Cryptic back to his hand and force him to play it again or wait, i can play around knowing it is there it helps so much.
Personally i have found with my deck list that Snapcaster is not as large of a threat, i will not deny that there have been games that he has helped with a snap-bolt, or remand etc in the late game. I was however suggested by another player to switch out Snapcaster for Monastery Mentor... they do not do anything close to the same ability so im not sure why it came up.. I would guess because i am casting it the same time as i would a Snapcaster most times and it generate more board presence? I dunno. What do you guys think about the switch? My list doesnt run a full play set of snapcaster which may also contribute to why people have suggested switching... Not sure i agree. what is everyone's thoughts.
I would never completely switch the 2, because they can serve different roles and different purposes. Snapcaster has WAY more flexibility to it though, and is can only be as good as your spell package. If all you run is cantrips and bolts, then thats the most Snapcaster can ever bring you.
If you run a mixture or 1-2 of's, Snap brings more flexibility to the game due to the nature of the graveyard. Also, just because he isn't flashy, doesnt mean he isnt good. On t3, if i have to snap flash serum visions or probe, to give myself a draw and give 2 swiftspears prowess, thats pretty freaking good. Depending on the deck they will either removal spell snap, get hit with him, or you leave it back to block a goyf or others. ALL of those can be VERY good for a deck such as ours that can run out of gas, or needs an extra push for the right sideboard card. I think getting rid of Snap would be a huge mistake. 2 cents lol
I would love to try this out, but I dont really like switching everything in the deck like every 3 days, so I will not jump onto the mentor train right now.
Cutting my 2 Spell Snares and 2 Spell Pierces for the paths just does not feel right for me, geist wont really help against abzan/jund in the late game, abzan has lingering souls and jund can just terminate the token and block the geist dead, or just edict geist, if we have no board, which should not be the case very often.
On the topic of Mentor being easier to protect than pyro. Dropping pyro turn 3 with counter back up in the form of spell pierce or spell snare is pretty nice, as we 2 for 1 the opponent.
with mentor, he would come down 1 turn later with protection, or even 2 if you want to protect him with 2 spells from a bolt. He is better late game but in the early turns pyro shines and often times 3-4 tokens of off pyro is everything we need. I will stick with my pyros but I dont know if I should cut 1 in the favor of Chandra, Torch of Defiance just to try her out.
Regarding your question with the swap of snap and mentor.
I myself love my snapcasters and I would never go below 3, he is just so versitile.
He is a beast mid to late game with the counters, bolts and helices and even probing to check if the coast is clear for the final alpha strike or bolting the opponent to death.
You said you are not running a full playset, so i suppose that you are playing 3.
I really think its about personal preference.
If you are playing Young pyromancers you could probably just swap them out for mentor, or split them up, you could also try to split mentor and snapcaster.
Going down all snapcasters is not the way to go, at least in my oppinion.
I myself am running a pretty similar version and I am pretty interested in this list.
The 4 paths are very interesting from my point of view, because as you mentioned the deck seems more mid-rangy and versus abzan/jund giving them extra mana can be very devastating for us.
The lack of pyromancer does confuse me although, I see mentor dealing more damage, but pyro comes out one turn earlier and can be protected.
What are your thoughts on this one?
I was a bit surprised with the list when I first saw it as well. Especially running only 19 lands with seven 3 cmc spells not including 3 snapcasters and bedlam reveler which are often at least 3 cmc spells. So there is a total of 13 spells that cost 3 CMC or more and an additional nine 2 CMC spells. The deck has twenty 1 CMC spells (including gitaxian probe).
Playing more powerful cards also mitigates the downside of Path to Exile. He can run 4 paths because he can top deck so many powerful cards. In addition, the builder runs only Remand as his counter magic spell of choice. Without Mana Leak and Spell Pierce, path is more effective as well. I assume if the game stays close it can end very quickly with a geist or mentor on the board especially powered by a mentor. I was just thinking how well mentor works with Saheeli Rai's second ability. I am super excited to add a mentor to my sideboard for grindy matchups.
I prefer to be slightly more aggressive than this deck, but for anyone who prefers to be slightly more midrange or for anyone who has a lot of jund/abzan in their meta and very little combo/tron, this is probably the best version of the deck you could run. You can't argue with results and this deck won the entire event so obviously it has some legs. I am excited to see what everyone on here comes up with after seeing this build.
Jeskai prowess is looking great right now!
I completely agree, the fact of only using Remand as the counter magic helps the 4-of Path to Exile I run the same thing. Leak and Spell PIerce are just horrible with Path there is nothing around that, atleast with the remand while they may recast what they use we got a cantrip out of it and tapped some mana (which against a control shell is a turning point) If i can make my opponant tap out to play the same spell twice i can easily turn the corner, or we have a UW control player in our meta, if i can counter his Cryptic back to his hand and force him to play it again or wait, i can play around knowing it is there it helps so much.
Personally i have found with my deck list that Snapcaster is not as large of a threat, i will not deny that there have been games that he has helped with a snap-bolt, or remand etc in the late game. I was however suggested by another player to switch out Snapcaster for Monastery Mentor... they do not do anything close to the same ability so im not sure why it came up.. I would guess because i am casting it the same time as i would a Snapcaster most times and it generate more board presence? I dunno. What do you guys think about the switch? My list doesnt run a full play set of snapcaster which may also contribute to why people have suggested switching... Not sure i agree. what is everyone's thoughts.
I would never completely switch the 2, because they can serve different roles and different purposes. Snapcaster has WAY more flexibility to it though, and is can only be as good as your spell package. If all you run is cantrips and bolts, then thats the most Snapcaster can ever bring you.
If you run a mixture or 1-2 of's, Snap brings more flexibility to the game due to the nature of the graveyard. Also, just because he isn't flashy, doesnt mean he isnt good. On t3, if i have to snap flash serum visions or probe, to give myself a draw and give 2 swiftspears prowess, thats pretty freaking good. Depending on the deck they will either removal spell snap, get hit with him, or you leave it back to block a goyf or others. ALL of those can be VERY good for a deck such as ours that can run out of gas, or needs an extra push for the right sideboard card. I think getting rid of Snap would be a huge mistake. 2 cents lol
I was kind of on the same page as removing snap is bad but figured since i was posed the question IRL it wouldn't be a bad topic to bring into here.
As to how many snaps in my current list i have just 2.. price point is the main reason here. I lucked out and traded for 1 so i really only need to buy 1 of which i still have yet to buy and is a Proxy in my deck atm.. something about dropping $60+ on 1 card just bothers me.
Maybe i am using Snap incorrectly tho as i never use him for a Probe or a Visions as I want to cast him on my opponents turn and not mine, i've always felt that if i am using snap just to cantrip i could have better uses for my mana or said slot I.E Cryptic Command (may not be the best example) but a snap on my T3 to snap - Serum is 3 mana and i am now tapped out to do nothing, atleast using Cryptic as this specific example it may be a T4 play but it has more versatility for it's options then just cantripping. So my snapcaster is usually saved to Snap-Path, or Snap-Bolt/Helix, or Snap-Remand.
As for the mixture of 1-2ofs.. no... haha, i tried mixing various 1 or 2 of spells in the deck and i lost consistancy, cards were less useful. my list now runs a minimum of 3of with the exclusion of Slip Through Space and Snapcaster.
Cutting Pyro for mentor i believe is a bad idea as well since that 1 turn when your using these guys mostly for tokens production can be crucial although does allow you to hold up defense for your delver. Also i do not run alot of counter magic (tried to add more with Spell Snare, but they have slowly been put to the SB *Sigh*).
Maybe my list is just an anomaly that is trying to do to much *shrugs*
I would love to try this out, but I dont really like switching everything in the deck like every 3 days, so I will not jump onto the mentor train right now.
Cutting my 2 Spell Snares and 2 Spell Pierces for the paths just does not feel right for me, geist wont really help against abzan/jund in the late game, abzan has lingering souls and jund can just terminate the token and block the geist dead, or just edict geist, if we have no board, which should not be the case very often.
On the topic of Mentor being easier to protect than pyro. Dropping pyro turn 3 with counter back up in the form of spell pierce or spell snare is pretty nice, as we 2 for 1 the opponent.
with mentor, he would come down 1 turn later with protection, or even 2 if you want to protect him with 2 spells from a bolt. He is better late game but in the early turns pyro shines and often times 3-4 tokens of off pyro is everything we need. I will stick with my pyros but I dont know if I should cut 1 in the favor of Chandra, Torch of Defiance just to try her out.
Regarding your question with the swap of snap and mentor.
I myself love my snapcasters and I would never go below 3, he is just so versitile.
He is a beast mid to late game with the counters, bolts and helices and even probing to check if the coast is clear for the final alpha strike or bolting the opponent to death.
You said you are not running a full playset, so i suppose that you are playing 3.
I really think its about personal preference.
If you are playing Young pyromancers you could probably just swap them out for mentor, or split them up, you could also try to split mentor and snapcaster.
Going down all snapcasters is not the way to go, at least in my oppinion.
I totally agree. I like to comment on all possible variants, but I really think if you find a base or core of the deck you like, I would not suggest switching it very often. Modern really rewards those who master their deck. Look at this weekend for an example. Bant Spirits is probably not the the best in the format right now, but because Caleb has put so many hours into the deck he is advantaged against most opponents.
My personal core is an aggro/tempo one consisting mainly of
The rest of the deck changes given the meta and what I think it best, but the overall plan of the deck remains the same. Also the general categories/ratios stay the same 13-15 creatures, 3-6 counterspells, 4-7 burn spells, bounce spells, etc.
If someone likes to play a more midrange game they can take a lot from the deck that recently won, however, if you play a more aggro deck it doesn't help as much. With that said, I am going to give Monastery Mentor a try in my sideboard to grindy matchups and this deck did remind me to give that a try. There is always something new I can learn, but I do agree with you Mazeron that everyone should really stick with what works for them in modern for the most part.
Just from my observation about Japanese players, the are very innovative when approaching deckbuilding and do not conform to American deckbuilding enginnering styles. This is why the Japanese are the only Asian country that has representatives in the Hall of Fame =).
Although I do not totally agree to not running 4 x Snapcasters, I can understand why.
From MORII TOMOFUMI's list, if there is 1 card to cut to make it 4 x Snapcasters, I only see Izzet Charm.
The deck is somewhat similar in play style to Morii Tomofumi's list as it can play the early aggro game with turn 1 Delver and seal the game with Geist and Restoration Angel (on Snapcaster).
Playing Delver as an early threat and having more of a midrange deck in generall does really interest me, I have seen many lists of you guys now and I have 4 Delvers in my binder and really want to test them out.
But how do you feel when drawing them in the mid/late game, after some games I figured that turn 1 delver isnt always as good as it seems if he doesnt flip the following turn or even after the turn after that one.
And he just eats a revomal if he is about to flip.
it happens. and they are wasting removal on a flipped delver means they have less ammo to deal with your later and more powerful threats.
sequencing and priority matters. i almost never tap out when i have a turn 1 delver flipped or unflipped and almost never cast a 2nd threat unless i have protection.
i won plenty of games off a flipped delver that the opponent refuse to use removal on, thinking he can wait till i play more powerful threats and use his removal on those instead.
i either burn them out or swing in with haste creatures like Stormchaser Mage or Bolt Snap Bolt.
and unflipped Delver makes for a great chump blocker too.
The list is very interesing, having no helices at all seems kind of wierd, but he is not really red dependant at all, with him just playing 4 red cards and them being Bolts.
Playing Delver as an early threat and having more of a midrange deck in generall does really interest me, I have seen many lists of you guys now and I have 4 Delvers in my binder and really want to test them out.
But how do you feel when drawing them in the mid/late game, after some games I figured that turn 1 delver isnt always as good as it seems if he doesnt flip the following turn or even after the turn after that one.
And he just eats a revomal if he is about to flip.
Personally i have found with my deck list that Snapcaster is not as large of a threat, i will not deny that there have been games that he has helped with a snap-bolt, or remand etc in the late game. I was however suggested by another player to switch out Snapcaster for Monastery Mentor... they do not do anything close to the same ability so im not sure why it came up.. I would guess because i am casting it the same time as i would a Snapcaster most times and it generate more board presence? I dunno. What do you guys think about the switch? My list doesnt run a full play set of snapcaster which may also contribute to why people have suggested switching... Not sure i agree. what is everyone's thoughts.
Playing a Porbe or a serum visions of off Snapcaster flashback dont occur that often, but sometimes they are necessary, smoothing out your draws if you need a land or an answer for a threat, checking the opponents hand to secure us the game, just give us some information or just to draw 1 card and create a token of off pyro can be a huge deal. You have to learn when to do this though it depends on how your hand is shaping up, what your opponent is playing and a little bit on how he is playing. I for example wouldnt mind playing a snap serum visions for a token and better draws on turn 3 against Zoo or even jund, because the snapcaster is most likley going to chump block anyways.
If you want your Snaps to act as a threat more often or your small creatures in general you could try out playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
She can act as a defensive and offensive top end at the same time.
I just check your list and with the pyros/snaps/geist and even reveler her +3/+3 is just absurd, making all your small creatures relevent again and if they get removed in response to the ability, thats one less removal you have to worry about. Her 1/1 can protect a geist from gettin edicted or just chump away until we can get offensive.
Elspeth is very interesting and I am considering trying her out as my second planeswalker instead of chandra.
Elspeth was one that i had thought to add earlier in my build, if i did add her though i would be pulling out the Slip Through Space as she is now my unblockable in my deck. I would also need to remove 1 of my planeswalkers as i dont think running 3 would be very good.. I would probably take our Saheeli Rai as Chandra is just to good, and i have managed to get her more then Saheeli so she has seen more testing. My Snapcaster does become a chump blocker i would say 99% of the time or something to flash in against lili for the edict. Again my deck is a little bit of an anomaly though, I kind of take the aggro burn approach that Goyf has in his rifles deck, with the tempo orientarion that Curdbros uses and alot of my burn spells are just a control package i am all over the map. For others, here is my list to reference.
I wonder why not just go with Delver of Secrets over Mantis Rider which is much easier to cast (fewer lands and colors), is another turn 1 play and has the same damage output.
Great conversations going on in here right now. I have been a little busy lately so I have to get caught up.
I think right now the minimum number of Snapcaster Mage in any of the Jeskai Prowess decks is 2. I run an aggro version and still run 2. He is just way to valuable in the mid to late game to not play him. I have attacked with him many times with unblockable just to push through a little extra damage. I have also used him as an Ambush Viper many times to start clocking the opponent.
There is an interesting article on Modern Nexus that talks about Caleb's Bant Spirits deck and why it is successful. It matches a lot of why our deck is successful
-It has early game pressure as well as late game value
-It's plays on a somewhat low curve
-It has unblockable spells to push through damage against grindy matchups
-The creatures have a lot of evasion
-It can play the control role when it has to.
I think if more people outside of our forum looked at the deck this way they would understand how the deck can be successful.
Rafiq- I like the deck. It's very concise. Let us know how it goes. The longer I have Saheeli Rai, the more I like having a planewalker in the deck. I think giving two a try is a good idea. Chandra Torch of Defiance, Saheeli, Elspeth Knight Errant, Gideon, Chandra Pyromaster, are all worth a try or even a sideboard slot.
On the late game delver, I have actually found him to be a decent mid game draw. He is not great when top decking on an empty board, but that's not the games we win much anyways unless we draw reveler, a planeswalker, or snapcaster. Having a creature you can draw and play for one mana and still hold up a spell is great in the midgame. In addition, delver will likely start attacking for 3 with flying shortly after playing him so he is a decent draw. Not great, but not terrible.
On a final note, I am really enjoying Monastery Mentor in my sideboard right now. I highly suggest giving him a try.
If you want to read the article don't read the next part until after you read it:
Still here.... Ok. Well the article doesn't say too much. It just basically talks about what he played. I thought he would go into more detail about his matchups. I hope he continues to work with the deck and maybe he will visit here and get some ideas on how to improve the deck. I really don't think anyone should be playing an aggressive prowess build without Bedlam Reveler right now, but to each their own. I am very glad to see a top player toying with a jeskai prowess deck.
I wonder why not just go with Delver of Secrets over Mantis Rider which is much easier to cast (fewer lands and colors), is another turn 1 play and has the same damage output.
I have to agree with you here Dennis. I just feel like this makes for a much more effective creature base. Hopefully as he gets more reps with the deck he starts to work towards this idea.
I wonder why not just go with Delver of Secrets over Mantis Rider which is much easier to cast (fewer lands and colors), is another turn 1 play and has the same damage output.
Delver you have to build around though. Mantis Rider is a hasty flyer who never starts as a 1/1 lol
If you mutagenic growth a delver unflipped it still dies to Lightning Bolt. Mantis rider laughs and keeps on coming. Also Rider feels like a much better top deck than Delver.
The same deck can support Delver very well with all the cantrips and high instant+sorcery count and it is also much easier on the mana (which is important in a 18 lands deck).
And I"m not sure how relevant is blocking for this deck which is looking to be the aggressor most of the time.
And you should never try to cast Mutagenic Growth on an unflipped Delver anyway.
About the top deck issue, I think that delver is decent and being another option for turns 1,2 easily outweighs this imho.
It's really tough to compare a 1 CMC creature to a 3 CMC creature in any reasonable way. Almost all 3 CMC creatures will be far superior in a vacuum when compared to a 1 CMC creature due to the difference in casting cost. The fact that delver can be played on turn one and begin the beat down quickly is the main reason he is so popular.
I personally think delver is a much better creature for modern due to the difference in casting cost. However, I also agree with Mazeron that delver evokes varying degrees of love and hate from players. Some players will never play any deck that isn't a delver deck and others absolutely hate delver. I remember telling Shaun Mclaren to play a jeskai delver deck on stream and he said he hates delver and is more of a control player than a tempo player.
I really don't think anyone is wrong on the topic of delver vs. mantis rider. They are both great creatures but they just go in differing styles of decks. Delver plays best in aggro-control and tempo and mantis rider works best in a aggro or value midrange style decks. I think they can be played together, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think delver is "better" than mantis rider or vice versa and I typically don't like to compare cards anyways unless they are being considered for the same slot in a specific deck.
One thing I love about the jeskai prowess archetype is that it offers so many different ways to build the deck to allow players who love aggro control, tempo, midrange, aggro, and even control to play a jeskai prowess deck in the style they prefer. I love seeing all of the different decks.
All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
I played a testing session this weekend. Here are a few of the main points I found.
-Monastery Mentor is a keeper in the board. He was continually amazing in the grindy matchups and fits perfectly into the deck and offers a much more grindy top end.
-Saheeli Rai continues to impress. She can be used very aggressively to -2 and get damage through and she is amazing late game with Bedlam Reveler, Snapcaster Mage or just pinging them to death. In addition, her ping ability plus the scrying helps smooth out the draws in the midgame which can be super beneficial. I wish her ultimate was more useful, but that is the only downside.
-I noticed several games that went long I was able to utilize all of my mana even with 5+ mana. I may go to 19 lands, but haven't had a problem so am going to stick with 18 for now.
-Delver of Secrets is flipping fairly consistently. I am fairly confident that 14-15 creatures main deck is the correct number for my personal build and the aggro/control and tempo builds. I am going with 14 for now.
-I added 2 surgical extraction to the sideboard for the recent uptick in Dredge deck.
I haven't changed the main deck so there isn't much news, but I am going to do an in depth session soon with notes so I cam post the game play notes.
Happy Halloween to those who are celebrating tonight!
All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Just some suggestions:
1. Drop Spellsnare into the sideboard
2. Cut Young Pyro and up Snapcaster to 4
3. Use the 2 slots for Remand
4. Cut Chandra for Saheeli
Play a bunch of games and let us know how it feels now. =)
Just one quick question guys. What are your thoughts on Desolate Lighthouse to filter through our deck so we dont draw lands when we dont really need them.
I am very tired right now so I will read through your comments tomorrow and I hope I can help tomorrow morning!
Desolate Lighthouse was a card tinkered around by people who were playing Jeskai Control last year. However, ever since Nahiri came on, that card pretty much seen extremely fringe play then after. I think it warrants 1 copy if you think you need it.
Most players run a full set of Serum Visions and Gitaxian Probe to make cantrips as smooth as possible, There is Saheeli now too so Desolate Lighthouse is a relative redundant card, but you sure can give it a go if you do not intent on running Saheeli. Just a word of warning! It doesn't produce any color in a colour hungry deck and needs quite a bit of mana to power EOT in a deck that has a limited manabase.
For a deck relying on Geist as the main beater I would suggest Thassa, God of the Sea which helps filter draws and is a repeatable source of unblockability.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Get ready for a LONG read. Also know that I do not mean to be harsh or offensive in anything I say. I like to get to the point on things, and I can feel your frustration. I wanna help you, so you're going to get the whole shabang lol
Also if people would like to question my analysis of some cards or add to it, or even disagree completely, lets do it. my brain is working on full power today and Im ready to fire away at the keyboard lol
Next time you play, take very specific notes. Because either the deck isn't tuned right, variance is out to get you, or you are playing plan A, but arent adapting your gameplay when you need to make a plan for C/D/E.
I'm not questioning your skills. Adapting to when you know to hold the horses or crank the pressure is a very hard skill that even pro magic players struggle with.
I'm going to go over the deck in my opinion. Feel free to fire back if you disagree on anything.
The appeal of this style is for some to be both proactive and reactive, with creatures and spells. The problem is when you have the reactive spell package with the wrong proactive creatures or visa versa, things get discombobulated and the deck doesnt run smoothly. I think your deck is a little confused on what it wants to be, so lets crank it down
Geist, Reveler, and planeswalkers
- Geist, we should drop him to the board or optimize your deck to make geist connect efficiently. My deck runs very smoothly without Geist mainboard, but my deck runs way more threats than yours does.
- Chandra seems very midrangy to me, but thats not a bad thing. She seems to be good in this style of deck, but we gotta give her a better shell or drop her.
- Sahili seems better in more aggressive builds with more threats or burn, same with Reveler. Great when you burn them, drop him and draw 3, more threats and burn spells. He's great in prowess builds because they have hasty creatures usually such as Stormchaser or Swiftspear, or combo U/R builds because they can cycle through 6 spells a turn with him and make him or another prowess creature (or Kiln Fiend) huge. With the counter magic, you dont wanna dump those, your cards hold a little more of a timing value, a positive and negative. So we either need to drop him or optimize your deck to run him. I don't like running him alongside Geist mainboard. They scream different deck styles and deck plans. I ran Reveler Main and geist side, but again, different deck styles.
- elspeth, knight errant is geist's best friend, FOR REAL and highly undervalued i think in modern. Now sometimes she wont seem the best if the meta is super fast, but thats what deck optimization and sideboards are for. This was the BEST geist list I have ever piloted. seriously it is disgusting when you line up geist on t3 and elspeth on t4.
Slip through Space- I don't like it here. Slip is much better in a harder prowess build that focuses on spell count or prowess creatures that can spam multiple cards in one turn for big damage. Your deck does NOT need this card. You have 2 prowess creatures in the 75. An unblocked geist for 1 turn just isn't worth this card. Even in my prowess heavy build, I dropped it from my list because there were better things I could be doing. If your deck is doing what it's supposed to do, most of the time they wont have a threat to play to block geist efficiently.
Remand- Remand has been getting worse it seems in most people's meta, especially mine. Affinity, Infect, DREDGE, Burn/Zoo variants, hell even Jund, all have seemed to have taken an upswing lately, at least from where Im sitting. Scapeshift/Valakut decks have also seen an uptick, but remand still are not optimal spells in this match up. So just be aware that you could possibly try Unsubstantiate in a heavy prowess build, or even cut down on some remand for threats or Spell pierce or another protection spell such as Emerge unscathed (this card for more heavier builds on low curve threats or prowess creatures i feel like or sideboard, but sideboard does not seem good to me lol)
Spell Snare- Again, this feels reactive, and only 1 I dont like. this should probably just be another threat card.
Young Pyromancer - I like him. I always have. The problem is, it just doesn't fit I feel like. More snaps alongside more spells, and some other deck changes I think its good. Hell ive always wanted ojutai's command alongside pyro and/or jace, vryn's prodigy, that just seems soooo good. I could get behind a list running pyromancers and bedlam revelers, that seems sweet and awesome.
I also love reading over Cbros creature evaluation. I think its great.
Delver of Secrets - The classic blue tempo one drop. No creature in the history of the game has provided more damage for tempo decks. He can flip on turn two and provide an evasive (flying) 3/2 insect beater that can do enough damage to end the game on his own.
Monastery Mentor- Jeskai’s front line attacker. Mentor is a prime definition of what we are trying to accomplish. It is buffed by all of our spells and can attack early and often.
Stormchaser Mage - Prowess, Flying, AND Haste...what's not to love? The 1 power can be a downside, but cards like Twisted Image can make this a powerful option (and the 3 toughness means any spell puts the Mage out of bolt range. Very few decks want 4 copies of this card, but it is a great addition to multiple Jeskia Prowess decks based on pure power, efficiency, speed, and evasion.
Kiln Fiend - This elemental can do all the damage needed by its self. Although Kiln Fiend is less evasive than some of the other options in the deck, it makes up for this with sheer power. It is buffed an additional +3 with every instant/sorcery spell we cast and when it becomes unblockable, it often ends the game on its own.
Snapcaster Mage - Snapcaster Mage is possibly the best creature in modern and is almost assuredly the best blue creature in modern. He offers card advantage in a single card. Simply the best source of card advantage a creature can offer. He is an honorary Jeskai member.
Geist of Saint Traft - My personal favorite creature and a favorite of tempo player’s since his induction. Hexproof gives Geist the ultimate protection from removal spells. In addition, he offers the most efficient source of damage a three drop can offer (he attacks for 6 damage with the angel). His only weakness is his 2/2 stats. However, in this deck he is often unblockable or protected from the colors of the opponents deck all but removing his only weakness. He is possibly the best creature for this deck.
Other options:
Mantis Rider - A powerful and evasive Jeskai beater is exactly what we are looking for in this deck. If your meta calls for a few more threats the insect riding monk is a super option. He is the definition of an efficient creature- 3/3 flyier with vigiliance and haste for only three mana fits the tone of the Jeskai Way perfectly.
Young Pyromancer - This young fire starter synergizes wonderfully with a deck full of instants and sorceries. While the pyromancer doesn’t fit into the more aggressive strategy , she fits wonderfully in the more control/tempo oriented Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck that will be presented later.
Monastery Mentor - The mentor and teacher of the Jeskai Clan. He teaches the jeskai way to the future tempo creatures of the world. He has the single best synergy with a deck full of non-creature spells and can take control of a game all by himself. He can be included in exchange for Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest if you want a slightly more controlled top end. He is also the central focus of the Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck.
Grim Lavamancer - This red wizard offers a large amount of value and efficiency to the deck. By allowing us to utilize the large amount of low costed spells in our graveyard as additional damage/removal, he is as efficient as they come. While he may be a little slow for the unblockable version (which may not be the case), he fits perfectly into the more controlling Monastery Mentor version of the deck
Ill be back later with more stuff probably. Im gettin hungry and a smoothie sounds REALLY good right now lol
All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Ok. I see the main difference here. Our decks are very similar, however, I run Monastery Swiftspear where you run Young Pyromancer. This makes a giant difference in terms of the speed of the game. This is likely why you are drawing so many lands so often because your getting much later in the game before killing the opponent. Swiftspear gives the deck another early threat that an aggro/control or tempo deck desperately needs.
Now that I see that difference better I can make much better recommendation for the deck.
If you prefer the more aggressive approach you would likely have to cut young pryomancer and 1 path to exile for for monastery swiftspear and play something similar to my deck (of course tweaked to your own personal preference). Another option you could play a more burn oriented approach like the one Hoogland was playing with Mantis Rider.
From what I remember, you are a an of Geist of Saint Traft. If so, your a man of my own heart :). Luckily he fits well into both midrange/control and aggro, I just personally believe he is utilized best in the more aggressive version.
Let us know what way you want to go and hopefully we can help you get to a deck you really love to play and also win consistently.
For a deck relying on Geist as the main beater I would suggest Thassa, God of the Sea which helps filter draws and is a repeatable source of unblockability.
Thassa, God of the Sea is a great card and does exactly what you said. I actually played it way back in the day. However, that is when Jund was the #1 deck. It's tough right now to play a three drop enchantment that doesn't affect the board right away. Because we don't play a ton of permanents, she is rarely a creature. With that said, she is probably a great sideboard card right now against the more grindy options. She is like a built in Artful Dodge with a free +1 from Saheeli Rai. Would be great against all grindy matchups.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Get ready for a LONG read. Also know that I do not mean to be harsh or offensive in anything I say. I like to get to the point on things, and I can feel your frustration. I wanna help you, so you're going to get the whole shabang lol
Also if people would like to question my analysis of some cards or add to it, or even disagree completely, lets do it. my brain is working on full power today and Im ready to fire away at the keyboard lol
Next time you play, take very specific notes. Because either the deck isn't tuned right, variance is out to get you, or you are playing plan A, but arent adapting your gameplay when you need to make a plan for C/D/E.
I'm not questioning your skills. Adapting to when you know to hold the horses or crank the pressure is a very hard skill that even pro magic players struggle with.
I'm going to go over the deck in my opinion. Feel free to fire back if you disagree on anything.
The appeal of this style is for some to be both proactive and reactive, with creatures and spells. The problem is when you have the reactive spell package with the wrong proactive creatures or visa versa, things get discombobulated and the deck doesnt run smoothly. I think your deck is a little confused on what it wants to be, so lets crank it down
Geist, Reveler, and planeswalkers
- Geist, we should drop him to the board or optimize your deck to make geist connect efficiently. My deck runs very smoothly without Geist mainboard, but my deck runs way more threats than yours does.
- Chandra seems very midrangy to me, but thats not a bad thing. She seems to be good in this style of deck, but we gotta give her a better shell or drop her.
- Sahili seems better in more aggressive builds with more threats or burn, same with Reveler. Great when you burn them, drop him and draw 3, more threats and burn spells. He's great in prowess builds because they have hasty creatures usually such as Stormchaser or Swiftspear, or combo U/R builds because they can cycle through 6 spells a turn with him and make him or another prowess creature (or Kiln Fiend) huge. With the counter magic, you dont wanna dump those, your cards hold a little more of a timing value, a positive and negative. So we either need to drop him or optimize your deck to run him. I don't like running him alongside Geist mainboard. They scream different deck styles and deck plans. I ran Reveler Main and geist side, but again, different deck styles.
- elspeth, knight errant is geist's best friend, FOR REAL and highly undervalued i think in modern. Now sometimes she wont seem the best if the meta is super fast, but thats what deck optimization and sideboards are for. This was the BEST geist list I have ever piloted. seriously it is disgusting when you line up geist on t3 and elspeth on t4.
Slip through Space- I don't like it here. Slip is much better in a harder prowess build that focuses on spell count or prowess creatures that can spam multiple cards in one turn for big damage. Your deck does NOT need this card. You have 2 prowess creatures in the 75. An unblocked geist for 1 turn just isn't worth this card. Even in my prowess heavy build, I dropped it from my list because there were better things I could be doing. If your deck is doing what it's supposed to do, most of the time they wont have a threat to play to block geist efficiently.
Remand- Remand has been getting worse it seems in most people's meta, especially mine. Affinity, Infect, DREDGE, Burn/Zoo variants, hell even Jund, all have seemed to have taken an upswing lately, at least from where Im sitting. Scapeshift/Valakut decks have also seen an uptick, but remand still are not optimal spells in this match up. So just be aware that you could possibly try Unsubstantiate in a heavy prowess build, or even cut down on some remand for threats or Spell pierce or another protection spell such as Emerge unscathed (this card for more heavier builds on low curve threats or prowess creatures i feel like or sideboard, but sideboard does not seem good to me lol)
Spell Snare- Again, this feels reactive, and only 1 I dont like. this should probably just be another threat card.
Young Pyromancer - I like him. I always have. The problem is, it just doesn't fit I feel like. More snaps alongside more spells, and some other deck changes I think its good. Hell ive always wanted ojutai's command alongside pyro and/or jace, vryn's prodigy, that just seems soooo good. I could get behind a list running pyromancers and bedlam revelers, that seems sweet and awesome.
I also love reading over Cbros creature evaluation. I think its great.
Delver of Secrets - The classic blue tempo one drop. No creature in the history of the game has provided more damage for tempo decks. He can flip on turn two and provide an evasive (flying) 3/2 insect beater that can do enough damage to end the game on his own.
Monastery Mentor- Jeskai’s front line attacker. Mentor is a prime definition of what we are trying to accomplish. It is buffed by all of our spells and can attack early and often.
Stormchaser Mage - Prowess, Flying, AND Haste...what's not to love? The 1 power can be a downside, but cards like Twisted Image can make this a powerful option (and the 3 toughness means any spell puts the Mage out of bolt range. Very few decks want 4 copies of this card, but it is a great addition to multiple Jeskia Prowess decks based on pure power, efficiency, speed, and evasion.
Kiln Fiend - This elemental can do all the damage needed by its self. Although Kiln Fiend is less evasive than some of the other options in the deck, it makes up for this with sheer power. It is buffed an additional +3 with every instant/sorcery spell we cast and when it becomes unblockable, it often ends the game on its own.
Snapcaster Mage - Snapcaster Mage is possibly the best creature in modern and is almost assuredly the best blue creature in modern. He offers card advantage in a single card. Simply the best source of card advantage a creature can offer. He is an honorary Jeskai member.
Geist of Saint Traft - My personal favorite creature and a favorite of tempo player’s since his induction. Hexproof gives Geist the ultimate protection from removal spells. In addition, he offers the most efficient source of damage a three drop can offer (he attacks for 6 damage with the angel). His only weakness is his 2/2 stats. However, in this deck he is often unblockable or protected from the colors of the opponents deck all but removing his only weakness. He is possibly the best creature for this deck.
Other options:
Mantis Rider - A powerful and evasive Jeskai beater is exactly what we are looking for in this deck. If your meta calls for a few more threats the insect riding monk is a super option. He is the definition of an efficient creature- 3/3 flyier with vigiliance and haste for only three mana fits the tone of the Jeskai Way perfectly.
Young Pyromancer - This young fire starter synergizes wonderfully with a deck full of instants and sorceries. While the pyromancer doesn’t fit into the more aggressive strategy , she fits wonderfully in the more control/tempo oriented Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck that will be presented later.
Monastery Mentor - The mentor and teacher of the Jeskai Clan. He teaches the jeskai way to the future tempo creatures of the world. He has the single best synergy with a deck full of non-creature spells and can take control of a game all by himself. He can be included in exchange for Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest if you want a slightly more controlled top end. He is also the central focus of the Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck.
Grim Lavamancer - This red wizard offers a large amount of value and efficiency to the deck. By allowing us to utilize the large amount of low costed spells in our graveyard as additional damage/removal, he is as efficient as they come. While he may be a little slow for the unblockable version (which may not be the case), he fits perfectly into the more controlling Monastery Mentor version of the deck
Ill be back later with more stuff probably. Im gettin hungry and a smoothie sounds REALLY good right now lol
[quote from="RafiqEDH »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/592647-jeskai-prowess-aggro-tempo-the-jeskai-way?comment=1627"]All right so during my continuous testing of the deck i have come to 2 conclusions so far.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Ok. I see the main difference here. Our decks are very similar, however, I run Monastery Swiftspear where you run Young Pyromancer. This makes a giant difference in terms of the speed of the game. This is likely why you are drawing so many lands so often because your getting much later in the game before killing the opponent. Swiftspear gives the deck another early threat that an aggro/control or tempo deck desperately needs.
Now that I see that difference better I can make much better recommendation for the deck.
If you prefer the more aggressive approach you would likely have to cut young pryomancer and 1 path to exile for for monastery swiftspear and play something similar to my deck (of course tweaked to your own personal preference). Another option you could play a more burn oriented approach like the one Hoogland was playing with Mantis Rider.
From what I remember, you are a an of Geist of Saint Traft. If so, your a man of my own heart :). Luckily he fits well into both midrange/control and aggro, I just personally believe he is utilized best in the more aggressive version.
Let us know what way you want to go and hopefully we can help you get to a deck you really love to play and also win consistently.
I like all of the suggestions for help so far thank you all.
So 1 thing that has come up consistant between all 3 of you is to add more Snapcaster... Unfortunately this is not an option. Snapcaster is very expensive atm sitting at $58(CDN) right now.. i know in comparison to other top end decks and such this is just a minor expense however it is not within my budget.. even my lands and such that i do have in the deck are cheaper alternative to the optimal lands and have taken me months to acquire what i have, also as i said earlier i still am using 1 proxied snapcaster atm as i still have not purchased my 2nd copy.
Curdbros - you are correct, I am a Geist of Saint Traft man, he is my boy and the main reason i built this deck over another so removing him is not something i will ever do. I originally made the switch from Swiftspear to Pyromancer as with my meta swiftspear wasn't doing enough. Maybe because i did not have enough spells to chain but the best it ever did was 3dmg and 3dmg from the bolt that triggered prowess.. I just found that it wasn't pulling it's weight in my deck. Pyromancer when i have gotten them have done their job.. When i beat Bant Eldrazi the other day i had 8 tokens just from playing the removal game against their threats. I am also surprised you suggested to cut Saheeli Rai in favor of Elspeth, Knight Errant as i know how much you truly enjoy Rai.
Slip Through Space if i was to cut this card am i not hindering myself even more if they have more threats? or is this the reason why i would be adding in the vapor snags instead so i have even more removal for the board?
Cryptic Command is a beast of a card there is no denying this, but a 4CMC counterspell isn't that a little to hard to run in our deck? I do not have much thought on ELectrolyze as it was in my original build when i played the enchantments and took it out and haven't looked back.
I would never completely switch the 2, because they can serve different roles and different purposes. Snapcaster has WAY more flexibility to it though, and is can only be as good as your spell package. If all you run is cantrips and bolts, then thats the most Snapcaster can ever bring you.
If you run a mixture or 1-2 of's, Snap brings more flexibility to the game due to the nature of the graveyard. Also, just because he isn't flashy, doesnt mean he isnt good. On t3, if i have to snap flash serum visions or probe, to give myself a draw and give 2 swiftspears prowess, thats pretty freaking good. Depending on the deck they will either removal spell snap, get hit with him, or you leave it back to block a goyf or others. ALL of those can be VERY good for a deck such as ours that can run out of gas, or needs an extra push for the right sideboard card. I think getting rid of Snap would be a huge mistake. 2 cents lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I was kind of on the same page as removing snap is bad but figured since i was posed the question IRL it wouldn't be a bad topic to bring into here.
As to how many snaps in my current list i have just 2.. price point is the main reason here. I lucked out and traded for 1 so i really only need to buy 1 of which i still have yet to buy and is a Proxy in my deck atm.. something about dropping $60+ on 1 card just bothers me.
Maybe i am using Snap incorrectly tho as i never use him for a Probe or a Visions as I want to cast him on my opponents turn and not mine, i've always felt that if i am using snap just to cantrip i could have better uses for my mana or said slot I.E Cryptic Command (may not be the best example) but a snap on my T3 to snap - Serum is 3 mana and i am now tapped out to do nothing, atleast using Cryptic as this specific example it may be a T4 play but it has more versatility for it's options then just cantripping. So my snapcaster is usually saved to Snap-Path, or Snap-Bolt/Helix, or Snap-Remand.
As for the mixture of 1-2ofs.. no... haha, i tried mixing various 1 or 2 of spells in the deck and i lost consistancy, cards were less useful. my list now runs a minimum of 3of with the exclusion of Slip Through Space and Snapcaster.
Cutting Pyro for mentor i believe is a bad idea as well since that 1 turn when your using these guys mostly for tokens production can be crucial although does allow you to hold up defense for your delver. Also i do not run alot of counter magic (tried to add more with Spell Snare, but they have slowly been put to the SB *Sigh*).
Maybe my list is just an anomaly that is trying to do to much *shrugs*
I totally agree. I like to comment on all possible variants, but I really think if you find a base or core of the deck you like, I would not suggest switching it very often. Modern really rewards those who master their deck. Look at this weekend for an example. Bant Spirits is probably not the the best in the format right now, but because Caleb has put so many hours into the deck he is advantaged against most opponents.
My personal core is an aggro/tempo one consisting mainly of
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
2 Snapcaster
2 Geist
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Bolt
2 Helix
3 Path
4 Serum Visions
3-4 Probe
2-3 Unblockable/rebound spells
2-3 Remand
The rest of the deck changes given the meta and what I think it best, but the overall plan of the deck remains the same. Also the general categories/ratios stay the same 13-15 creatures, 3-6 counterspells, 4-7 burn spells, bounce spells, etc.
If someone likes to play a more midrange game they can take a lot from the deck that recently won, however, if you play a more aggro deck it doesn't help as much. With that said, I am going to give Monastery Mentor a try in my sideboard to grindy matchups and this deck did remind me to give that a try. There is always something new I can learn, but I do agree with you Mazeron that everyone should really stick with what works for them in modern for the most part.
Although I do not totally agree to not running 4 x Snapcasters, I can understand why.
From MORII TOMOFUMI's list, if there is 1 card to cut to make it 4 x Snapcasters, I only see Izzet Charm.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Deck List
The deck is somewhat similar in play style to Morii Tomofumi's list as it can play the early aggro game with turn 1 Delver and seal the game with Geist and Restoration Angel (on Snapcaster).
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
it happens. and they are wasting removal on a flipped delver means they have less ammo to deal with your later and more powerful threats.
sequencing and priority matters. i almost never tap out when i have a turn 1 delver flipped or unflipped and almost never cast a 2nd threat unless i have protection.
i won plenty of games off a flipped delver that the opponent refuse to use removal on, thinking he can wait till i play more powerful threats and use his removal on those instead.
i either burn them out or swing in with haste creatures like Stormchaser Mage or Bolt Snap Bolt.
and unflipped Delver makes for a great chump blocker too.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Elspeth was one that i had thought to add earlier in my build, if i did add her though i would be pulling out the Slip Through Space as she is now my unblockable in my deck. I would also need to remove 1 of my planeswalkers as i dont think running 3 would be very good.. I would probably take our Saheeli Rai as Chandra is just to good, and i have managed to get her more then Saheeli so she has seen more testing. My Snapcaster does become a chump blocker i would say 99% of the time or something to flash in against lili for the edict. Again my deck is a little bit of an anomaly though, I kind of take the aggro burn approach that Goyf has in his rifles deck, with the tempo orientarion that Curdbros uses and alot of my burn spells are just a control package
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Bedlam Reveler
Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Slip Through Space
Planeswalker
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Mountain
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I wonder why not just go with Delver of Secrets over Mantis Rider which is much easier to cast (fewer lands and colors), is another turn 1 play and has the same damage output.
Bedlam Reveler over some of the Snapcaster Mages might be a decent idea as well.
I think right now the minimum number of Snapcaster Mage in any of the Jeskai Prowess decks is 2. I run an aggro version and still run 2. He is just way to valuable in the mid to late game to not play him. I have attacked with him many times with unblockable just to push through a little extra damage. I have also used him as an Ambush Viper many times to start clocking the opponent.
There is an interesting article on Modern Nexus that talks about Caleb's Bant Spirits deck and why it is successful. It matches a lot of why our deck is successful
-It has early game pressure as well as late game value
-It's plays on a somewhat low curve
-It has unblockable spells to push through damage against grindy matchups
-The creatures have a lot of evasion
-It can play the control role when it has to.
I think if more people outside of our forum looked at the deck this way they would understand how the deck can be successful.
Rafiq- I like the deck. It's very concise. Let us know how it goes. The longer I have Saheeli Rai, the more I like having a planewalker in the deck. I think giving two a try is a good idea. Chandra Torch of Defiance, Saheeli, Elspeth Knight Errant, Gideon, Chandra Pyromaster, are all worth a try or even a sideboard slot.
On the late game delver, I have actually found him to be a decent mid game draw. He is not great when top decking on an empty board, but that's not the games we win much anyways unless we draw reveler, a planeswalker, or snapcaster. Having a creature you can draw and play for one mana and still hold up a spell is great in the midgame. In addition, delver will likely start attacking for 3 with flying shortly after playing him so he is a decent draw. Not great, but not terrible.
On a final note, I am really enjoying Monastery Mentor in my sideboard right now. I highly suggest giving him a try.
http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/jeskai-modern-rider/
If you want to read the article don't read the next part until after you read it:
Still here.... Ok. Well the article doesn't say too much. It just basically talks about what he played. I thought he would go into more detail about his matchups. I hope he continues to work with the deck and maybe he will visit here and get some ideas on how to improve the deck. I really don't think anyone should be playing an aggressive prowess build without Bedlam Reveler right now, but to each their own. I am very glad to see a top player toying with a jeskai prowess deck.
I have to agree with you here Dennis. I just feel like this makes for a much more effective creature base. Hopefully as he gets more reps with the deck he starts to work towards this idea.
Delver you have to build around though. Mantis Rider is a hasty flyer who never starts as a 1/1 lol
If you mutagenic growth a delver unflipped it still dies to Lightning Bolt. Mantis rider laughs and keeps on coming. Also Rider feels like a much better top deck than Delver.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
And I"m not sure how relevant is blocking for this deck which is looking to be the aggressor most of the time.
And you should never try to cast Mutagenic Growth on an unflipped Delver anyway.
About the top deck issue, I think that delver is decent and being another option for turns 1,2 easily outweighs this imho.
I personally think delver is a much better creature for modern due to the difference in casting cost. However, I also agree with Mazeron that delver evokes varying degrees of love and hate from players. Some players will never play any deck that isn't a delver deck and others absolutely hate delver. I remember telling Shaun Mclaren to play a jeskai delver deck on stream and he said he hates delver and is more of a control player than a tempo player.
I really don't think anyone is wrong on the topic of delver vs. mantis rider. They are both great creatures but they just go in differing styles of decks. Delver plays best in aggro-control and tempo and mantis rider works best in a aggro or value midrange style decks. I think they can be played together, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think delver is "better" than mantis rider or vice versa and I typically don't like to compare cards anyways unless they are being considered for the same slot in a specific deck.
One thing I love about the jeskai prowess archetype is that it offers so many different ways to build the deck to allow players who love aggro control, tempo, midrange, aggro, and even control to play a jeskai prowess deck in the style they prefer. I love seeing all of the different decks.
1) Saheeli Rai While she is a good card especially for a 3-drop, in my deck personally everytime i have drawn her she is underwhelming with the best she has done is an extra pyromancer for tokens or a free Insectile Aberration.. Maybe because i only have 2 Bedlam Reveler and 2 Snapcaster Mage i just do not get as much use out of her?
2) When the deck works, it REALLY works, i stomped a Bant Eldrazi deck last night with ease. However, when it doesn't work it is the worst thing ever. I hate Serum Visions into Serum Visions or Gitaxian Probe when i have very little going on in my opening hand.. it's ok if i am fliping a Delver with it however then i have no backup protection for Delver and at this point even not removed if i keep drawing into cantrips i have nothing to use against the threat coming from the other side.. Maybe it is bad luck.
I am OK if i loose, it is part of the game. but loosing consistently really sucks and makes me always question if it's my deck..
-Monastery Mentor is a keeper in the board. He was continually amazing in the grindy matchups and fits perfectly into the deck and offers a much more grindy top end.
-Saheeli Rai continues to impress. She can be used very aggressively to -2 and get damage through and she is amazing late game with Bedlam Reveler, Snapcaster Mage or just pinging them to death. In addition, her ping ability plus the scrying helps smooth out the draws in the midgame which can be super beneficial. I wish her ultimate was more useful, but that is the only downside.
-I noticed several games that went long I was able to utilize all of my mana even with 5+ mana. I may go to 19 lands, but haven't had a problem so am going to stick with 18 for now.
-Delver of Secrets is flipping fairly consistently. I am fairly confident that 14-15 creatures main deck is the correct number for my personal build and the aggro/control and tempo builds. I am going with 14 for now.
-I added 2 surgical extraction to the sideboard for the recent uptick in Dredge deck.
I haven't changed the main deck so there isn't much news, but I am going to do an in depth session soon with notes so I cam post the game play notes.
Happy Halloween to those who are celebrating tonight!
That sucks if your losing lately. If you're losing consistently then I would definitely not keeping playing the deck as it is. Now matter how fun a deck is to play, it's not fun to lose often. You really shouldn't be losing consistently. I have heard many times on other deck topics on these boards that a certain deck has a 75% win rate or something like that. If those players were being honest then a 60% win rate is actually respectable. If think in modern if you really spend time mastering a deck you can achieve a 60-65% win rate with the deck against most players. Especially those who change decks a lot. If you losing 50% of your games or more you may want to try something different (a different version of the deck or another shard like grixis).
One thing I have said before and that I truly believe is that an aggro/control and/or tempo deck is the hardest archetype in modern to play well. This is mainly due to the fact that the deck is made up of different parts like you said above (threats, protection, interaction). You can draw all of your cantrips and non of your threats which sucks, but comes with the territory. You trade draw consistency for percentage points in most matchups. There are very few dead matchups with a jeskai aggro/control or tempo deck, but the deck is not as consistent as a midrange jund deck. Whereas Jund will always be consistent, it will always have a terrible tron matchup as well as others. Ryan Overturf talked about this in his last article as well (however his deck is more controlling).
This is also the reason that I am very happy that we got Bedlam Reveler and Saheeli Rai lately. If gives the deck a fighting chance in games we are behind. This is also why I run Geist because he adds pure power to the deck.
What typically happens when you lose?
What matchups are you struggling against?
I hope we can help or at minimum get you to a deck you like or archetype you like.
On the Saheeli Rai topic, she definitely fits a very specific style of deck. I'm not sure what you are running currently, but would love to see your deck. She may be better as a Monastery Mentor if your running a more controlling deck. Can you post your current list? Thanks Rafiq. Hopefully we can help.
Hey Curd, I am not sure if it is a 50% ratio for loosing or not however alot of the time i am loosing it is to Jank which does make it harder to figure out why i am loosing. Here are some points i have noticed and my current list.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Bedlam Reveler
Instant/Sorcery
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Slip Through Space
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Land
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Mountain
So Snapcaster, and Bedlam i rarely ever see in a game, and the odd time i get my Pyromancer... essentially leaving me relying on just Delver and Geist.. The problem here is since we are not Legacy i do not have enough / the right tools in my deck to actively protect Delver from spot removal, and if a creature with more then 3 toughness hits the board Geist is now useless unless i draw a path.. the upside is if it is just Geist and day Goyf online my opponent will avoid attacking to keep him at bay. We also cannot be adding to much countermagic to our deck as the best ones in modern cost alot of mana (Cryptic Command) and others as very situational.. not to mention the non-bo of having to many counters for Bedlam Reveler
Even with 18 land i am hit or miss, there are games (probably about 75%) where i am so much mana that by the end of the game i have like 7+ land on the field.. and about 15% of the games i have 2 land and 10% i have perfect and get enough land to play on curve and win quick. Ideal for us would be to have 4 - 5 land and be winning the game (with the exclusions of if we get pathed)
Spell Snare i thought would be great but i guess i was looking at a broader spectrum.. I generally don't see much at 2CMC in my meta unless the 1 jund player is around (which is not often) it works ok-ish against the UW control player to counter his counters and is just terrible against Infect and Jank (our meta jank usually has some sort of Emrakul or Kiki combo, or Archangel combo)
Saheeli Rai.. i really want her in the deck she is powerful for every reason you said above, i just have not gotten the chance to use her on a Bedlam except for once, never on a snapcaster.. usually on a fliped delver... which dont get me wrong is still an amazing extra 3pts of damage. and Her scry is wonderful.. maybe i just dont get her at good times in the match.
I wont switch to Grixis as i originally started / built this deck for Geist (Delver was just a nice add), i wanted a deck for him and Grixis takes that away and Esper is just bad.
one card that is very consostant to it's power level is Chandra I am never sad to draw into her. I have used her to destroy a creature i couldn't with a bolt, i have used her for extra 2 dmg, and got her ultimate once.
Also to note, i am very consistant in getting a Delver T1... not so consistant in it flipping T2 tho.
I really cannot figure out what causes me to loose.
Just some suggestions:
1. Drop Spellsnare into the sideboard
2. Cut Young Pyro and up Snapcaster to 4
3. Use the 2 slots for Remand
4. Cut Chandra for Saheeli
Play a bunch of games and let us know how it feels now. =)
Desolate Lighthouse was a card tinkered around by people who were playing Jeskai Control last year. However, ever since Nahiri came on, that card pretty much seen extremely fringe play then after. I think it warrants 1 copy if you think you need it.
Most players run a full set of Serum Visions and Gitaxian Probe to make cantrips as smooth as possible, There is Saheeli now too so Desolate Lighthouse is a relative redundant card, but you sure can give it a go if you do not intent on running Saheeli. Just a word of warning! It doesn't produce any color in a colour hungry deck and needs quite a bit of mana to power EOT in a deck that has a limited manabase.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Get ready for a LONG read. Also know that I do not mean to be harsh or offensive in anything I say. I like to get to the point on things, and I can feel your frustration. I wanna help you, so you're going to get the whole shabang lol
Also if people would like to question my analysis of some cards or add to it, or even disagree completely, lets do it. my brain is working on full power today and Im ready to fire away at the keyboard lol
Next time you play, take very specific notes. Because either the deck isn't tuned right, variance is out to get you, or you are playing plan A, but arent adapting your gameplay when you need to make a plan for C/D/E.
I'm not questioning your skills. Adapting to when you know to hold the horses or crank the pressure is a very hard skill that even pro magic players struggle with.
I'm going to go over the deck in my opinion. Feel free to fire back if you disagree on anything.
The appeal of this style is for some to be both proactive and reactive, with creatures and spells. The problem is when you have the reactive spell package with the wrong proactive creatures or visa versa, things get discombobulated and the deck doesnt run smoothly. I think your deck is a little confused on what it wants to be, so lets crank it down
Geist, Reveler, and planeswalkers
- Geist, we should drop him to the board or optimize your deck to make geist connect efficiently. My deck runs very smoothly without Geist mainboard, but my deck runs way more threats than yours does.
- Chandra seems very midrangy to me, but thats not a bad thing. She seems to be good in this style of deck, but we gotta give her a better shell or drop her.
- Sahili seems better in more aggressive builds with more threats or burn, same with Reveler. Great when you burn them, drop him and draw 3, more threats and burn spells. He's great in prowess builds because they have hasty creatures usually such as Stormchaser or Swiftspear, or combo U/R builds because they can cycle through 6 spells a turn with him and make him or another prowess creature (or Kiln Fiend) huge. With the counter magic, you dont wanna dump those, your cards hold a little more of a timing value, a positive and negative. So we either need to drop him or optimize your deck to run him. I don't like running him alongside Geist mainboard. They scream different deck styles and deck plans. I ran Reveler Main and geist side, but again, different deck styles.
- elspeth, knight errant is geist's best friend, FOR REAL and highly undervalued i think in modern. Now sometimes she wont seem the best if the meta is super fast, but thats what deck optimization and sideboards are for. This was the BEST geist list I have ever piloted. seriously it is disgusting when you line up geist on t3 and elspeth on t4.
Slip through Space- I don't like it here. Slip is much better in a harder prowess build that focuses on spell count or prowess creatures that can spam multiple cards in one turn for big damage. Your deck does NOT need this card. You have 2 prowess creatures in the 75. An unblocked geist for 1 turn just isn't worth this card. Even in my prowess heavy build, I dropped it from my list because there were better things I could be doing. If your deck is doing what it's supposed to do, most of the time they wont have a threat to play to block geist efficiently.
Remand- Remand has been getting worse it seems in most people's meta, especially mine. Affinity, Infect, DREDGE, Burn/Zoo variants, hell even Jund, all have seemed to have taken an upswing lately, at least from where Im sitting. Scapeshift/Valakut decks have also seen an uptick, but remand still are not optimal spells in this match up. So just be aware that you could possibly try Unsubstantiate in a heavy prowess build, or even cut down on some remand for threats or Spell pierce or another protection spell such as Emerge unscathed (this card for more heavier builds on low curve threats or prowess creatures i feel like or sideboard, but sideboard does not seem good to me lol)
Spell Snare- Again, this feels reactive, and only 1 I dont like. this should probably just be another threat card.
Young Pyromancer - I like him. I always have. The problem is, it just doesn't fit I feel like. More snaps alongside more spells, and some other deck changes I think its good. Hell ive always wanted ojutai's command alongside pyro and/or jace, vryn's prodigy, that just seems soooo good. I could get behind a list running pyromancers and bedlam revelers, that seems sweet and awesome.
I also love reading over Cbros creature evaluation. I think its great.
Monastery Mentor- Jeskai’s front line attacker. Mentor is a prime definition of what we are trying to accomplish. It is buffed by all of our spells and can attack early and often.
Stormchaser Mage - Prowess, Flying, AND Haste...what's not to love? The 1 power can be a downside, but cards like Twisted Image can make this a powerful option (and the 3 toughness means any spell puts the Mage out of bolt range. Very few decks want 4 copies of this card, but it is a great addition to multiple Jeskia Prowess decks based on pure power, efficiency, speed, and evasion.
Kiln Fiend - This elemental can do all the damage needed by its self. Although Kiln Fiend is less evasive than some of the other options in the deck, it makes up for this with sheer power. It is buffed an additional +3 with every instant/sorcery spell we cast and when it becomes unblockable, it often ends the game on its own.
Snapcaster Mage - Snapcaster Mage is possibly the best creature in modern and is almost assuredly the best blue creature in modern. He offers card advantage in a single card. Simply the best source of card advantage a creature can offer. He is an honorary Jeskai member.
Geist of Saint Traft - My personal favorite creature and a favorite of tempo player’s since his induction. Hexproof gives Geist the ultimate protection from removal spells. In addition, he offers the most efficient source of damage a three drop can offer (he attacks for 6 damage with the angel). His only weakness is his 2/2 stats. However, in this deck he is often unblockable or protected from the colors of the opponents deck all but removing his only weakness. He is possibly the best creature for this deck.
Other options:
Mantis Rider - A powerful and evasive Jeskai beater is exactly what we are looking for in this deck. If your meta calls for a few more threats the insect riding monk is a super option. He is the definition of an efficient creature- 3/3 flyier with vigiliance and haste for only three mana fits the tone of the Jeskai Way perfectly.
Young Pyromancer - This young fire starter synergizes wonderfully with a deck full of instants and sorceries. While the pyromancer doesn’t fit into the more aggressive strategy , she fits wonderfully in the more control/tempo oriented Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck that will be presented later.
Monastery Mentor - The mentor and teacher of the Jeskai Clan. He teaches the jeskai way to the future tempo creatures of the world. He has the single best synergy with a deck full of non-creature spells and can take control of a game all by himself. He can be included in exchange for Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest if you want a slightly more controlled top end. He is also the central focus of the Monastery Mentor Jeskai Way deck.
Grim Lavamancer - This red wizard offers a large amount of value and efficiency to the deck. By allowing us to utilize the large amount of low costed spells in our graveyard as additional damage/removal, he is as efficient as they come. While he may be a little slow for the unblockable version (which may not be the case), he fits perfectly into the more controlling Monastery Mentor version of the deck
Ill be back later with more stuff probably. Im gettin hungry and a smoothie sounds REALLY good right now lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Ok. I see the main difference here. Our decks are very similar, however, I run Monastery Swiftspear where you run Young Pyromancer. This makes a giant difference in terms of the speed of the game. This is likely why you are drawing so many lands so often because your getting much later in the game before killing the opponent. Swiftspear gives the deck another early threat that an aggro/control or tempo deck desperately needs.
Now that I see that difference better I can make much better recommendation for the deck.
It seems like the deck is a little stuck between two ideas. Young Pyromancer is typically better in a deck with a ton of cantrips and/or counter magic/disruption. On the other hand, Monastery Swiftspear is better with more burn spells, pump spells, and unblockable spells. I always liked that monastery swiftspear gave me another viable target for the Distortion Strikes and Slip Through Spaces besides Geist of Saint Traft.
If you like the Young Pyromancer style then you could go more towards the midrange/controlling aspect. If so I would cut one Lightning Helix, the two Slip Through Spaces, the Spell Snare and one Geist of Saint Traft. Then you could add a Spell Pierce, and a Monastery Mentor, Emerge Unscathed, and two Vapor Snags or one snag and one Unsubstantiate. That way the deck plays a bit more of a controlling game that protects the threats and puts out a lot of tokens. In addition, you could putGeist of Saint Traft in the sideboard and play Spell Queller. Something like this:
Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Spell Queller
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Monastery Mentor
Spells (25)
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vapor Snag
1 Emerge Unscathed
1 Unsubstantiate
Planeswalker (2)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Lands 18- 60 cards, 19- 61 cards
If you wanted to go a bit more controlling you could go 19 lands and add a Cryptic Command or Electrolyze instead of Unsubstaniate.
If you prefer the more aggressive approach you would likely have to cut young pryomancer and 1 path to exile for for monastery swiftspear and play something similar to my deck (of course tweaked to your own personal preference). Another option you could play a more burn oriented approach like the one Hoogland was playing with Mantis Rider.
From what I remember, you are a an of Geist of Saint Traft. If so, your a man of my own heart :). Luckily he fits well into both midrange/control and aggro, I just personally believe he is utilized best in the more aggressive version.
Let us know what way you want to go and hopefully we can help you get to a deck you really love to play and also win consistently.
Thassa, God of the Sea is a great card and does exactly what you said. I actually played it way back in the day. However, that is when Jund was the #1 deck. It's tough right now to play a three drop enchantment that doesn't affect the board right away. Because we don't play a ton of permanents, she is rarely a creature. With that said, she is probably a great sideboard card right now against the more grindy options. She is like a built in Artful Dodge with a free +1 from Saheeli Rai. Would be great against all grindy matchups.
I like all of the suggestions for help so far thank you all.
So 1 thing that has come up consistant between all 3 of you is to add more Snapcaster... Unfortunately this is not an option. Snapcaster is very expensive atm sitting at $58(CDN) right now.. i know in comparison to other top end decks and such this is just a minor expense however it is not within my budget.. even my lands and such that i do have in the deck are cheaper alternative to the optimal lands and have taken me months to acquire what i have, also as i said earlier i still am using 1 proxied snapcaster atm as i still have not purchased my 2nd copy.
Curdbros - you are correct, I am a Geist of Saint Traft man, he is my boy and the main reason i built this deck over another so removing him is not something i will ever do. I originally made the switch from Swiftspear to Pyromancer as with my meta swiftspear wasn't doing enough. Maybe because i did not have enough spells to chain but the best it ever did was 3dmg and 3dmg from the bolt that triggered prowess.. I just found that it wasn't pulling it's weight in my deck. Pyromancer when i have gotten them have done their job.. When i beat Bant Eldrazi the other day i had 8 tokens just from playing the removal game against their threats. I am also surprised you suggested to cut Saheeli Rai in favor of Elspeth, Knight Errant as i know how much you truly enjoy Rai.
Slip Through Space if i was to cut this card am i not hindering myself even more if they have more threats? or is this the reason why i would be adding in the vapor snags instead so i have even more removal for the board?
Cryptic Command is a beast of a card there is no denying this, but a 4CMC counterspell isn't that a little to hard to run in our deck? I do not have much thought on ELectrolyze as it was in my original build when i played the enchantments and took it out and haven't looked back.
Spell Queller i have a 1-of in my sideboard for the few deck's i can use him against.. however like i said with my meta Jank is very previlant and Jank means Emrakul, The Aeons Torn or Through the Breach or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker... all of which i cannot be quelled.