Pretty similar to yukuhiro's list, i've opted for rally the ancestors rather than CoCo. I found i gets you a lot more than two creatures for the same mana cost, and for 5 mana you get eternal witness back as well! Witness can't bring back rally since it exiles itself but it can get back return to the ranks of rallies milled with satyr wayfinder.
You can even setup a surprise block. Instant speed gives us lots of options, but return to the ranks is still the better spell. Having 8x mass reanimate spells is pretty sweet and viscera seer scrying help dig into more.
This is mostly to play with right now. It's a very unrefined list, but it has direction. I sacrificed removal for just a better commitment to the field. Sideboard is up in the air, but I'm gonna lean heavily for answers to twin
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
This is just a rough list and can still be improved, but right now I'm kinda lost on how to do it. Was so used to playing BW tokens, so this kinda mimics that. Any help would be appreciated
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Here is the version I am playing. It is a W/B version as opposed to the three color (I have the mana base for the Mardu, just not certain its really worth it but Falkenrath Aristocrat is mighty tempting).
Its pretty close to the suggested list but doesn't have Bob. The card draw hasn't really been an issue yet but I have notice a few more glaring issues with the deck so far, at least this version. Those issues are with some extreme nonbos.
1. Athreos, God of Passage vs. Lingering Souls
Both cards are really good. Lingering Souls is awesome with Blood Artist and Cartel Aristocrat. However, they don't help devotion at all and fairly easily bypass Athreos' ability that makes him so good in this deck.
2. Tidehollow Sculler vs. Cartel Aristocrat
Tidehollow is excellent with Athreos because they don't want to give you the chance to cast it again so they usually take the 3 but why would you ever want to sac it to Cartel Aristocrat? Having plenty of creatures to dump really but Tidehollow just doesn't want to go. To that end it doesn't work particularly well if you have multiples out and a Skirsdag you really want to activate.
3. Mana count vs. Rally the Ancestors
Does Rally the Ancestors work with Athreos? Can he come back with that? I thought the rule was that he is only not a creature when on the battlefield and your devotion is less than 7 but if he's in your library, exile, or the graveyard he is a creature regardless of what your devotion is. Beyond that I find myself very seldom in a place where I can cast or really make use of Rally because I have maybe Doomed Traveler in the yard and bunch of Lingering souls making Rally worse.
I almost wonder if the W/B version doesn't want something like Bloodghast and Viscera Seer.
I wonder if Lingering Souls should be Squadron Hawks because it works well with Athreos (both devotion and his ability), is good for chumps and sac to Cartel. Depending on how you play it they can also be an infinite source with Mistveil Plains. Skirsdag demands an answer but can easily be answered by clearing the rest of our board as well so maybe that should be something else as well. Anyone have any thoughts on the W/B version?
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After not playing Abzan Aristocrats in favor of abzan company I am back to playing the deck again due to the release of lilliana and evolutionary leap.
I tried for awhile to play collected company, and it was just terrible. The payoff was not enough for having trying to do a hit or miss combat trick/2 for 1 card that cost 4 mana. It was tough to execute against too many decks due to either too low of an impact late game/blue counters (remand hurts a lot)/not being proactive enough.
EVOLUTIONARY LEAP IS SIMPLY A BETTER CARD.
This card is absolutely insane in the abzan build. It can act as an additional sac engine (which was key!) keep your low mana creatures coming when you would otherwise run out of gas being the primo card advantage generator this deck was missing, and is nearly as fast as co company, but with a much more consistent payoff.
The mana base was very screwy with this card however and I think that can easily be fixed by running additional fetch lands (not due to budget reasons and waiting for bfz). I often was only able to get 2 green mana sources on the field which caused a bottle neck. Playing leap and not activating it when it comes into play hurts.
On to the matchup analysis.
I played in a fnm tourney of 35+ players for a total of 6 rounds. I played the following decks: Burn, Twin, Grixis Delve, Modern Cheeri0s Reboot, Cruel Control, then a jund land destruction brew. I went 4-2 losing to twin and delve.
All my wins come from favorable matchups, and my loses were unlucky/outplayed. So its really hard to determine how well this deck performed.
Burn game 3 was the only interesting game, I was down to 2 life then was able to get back in it via leap/seer with blood artist. I was leaping twice a turn due to only have 2 green mana, but with seer I was in no real danger of being burned out due to being able to get above 6 life at any time. He was also stuck on 2 mana most of the game. After turn 5 and you are still alive leap is absolutely bonkers.
Twin was a blowout, no removal game 1, and he had a spellskite game 2. He landed twin both games.
Grixis delve was a fluke I believe, game 1 I took easily, game 2 I misplayed, on turn 1 I played a swamp, turn 2 a forest when I had a fetch land that could fetch for a plains. I expected him to have sided in blood moon but didn't believe he already had it, I was wrong and turn 3 he played it and was never able to find a plains. Game 3 I kept drawing green cards without greeen mana, and at the exactly the right time he thought scoured a Forrest to my graveyard (WTF!) and wasn't able to play any of my cards.
Cherrio's he was on the play and went off on turn 2. Game 2 I path his Puresteel Paladin leading to a blowout. Game 3, he had to waste his grapeshot on my Eidolon of Rhetoric and drew into a path so I was in no danger of losing.
Cruel ultimatum went perfectly, he wasn't able to deal with bloodsoaked champion and by the time he could cast cruel ultimatium my board presence was looking at lethal through it. Aristocrats laughs at control decks.
Against land jund destruction, I am not sure how it went as it was after 1 AM. I was simply able to grind him out.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Where Bob costs us life the Wall saves us life by being a reliable blocker against faster decks. It still draws us a card and it doesn't feel bad to sac to Cartel Aristocrat in a pinch. Also, it combos much better with Rally the Ancestors than Bob does. Bob would be exiled by Rally's trigger before netting us another card. With Wall we still get our card.
OUT: Skirsdag High Priest
IN: Silver-Inlaid Dagger
While the Priest is better with Athreos and Rally its ability and body are simply too small and slow for what this deck does and wants to do. Its also fair to hard to keep Cartel + Priest + 1 other creature + 1 creature to sac without your opponent doing anything about it. Also, his ability cannot be activated when brought back with Rally so that makes it extra bad because that is when his ability is most useful. On the other hand, Silver-Inlaid Dagger makes Cartel Aristocrat a 4 turn clock (by herself) which is awesome because she is super easy to protect and to give evasion too. It also works well with Liliana, Heretical Healer in creature mode as well as Doomed Traveler in a pinch. In the board I am running 3 Mirrodin Crusader which is a two turn clock and is really good against Abzan, Boggles, Infect, and CoCo Elves.
Mostly I felt the deck was too slow and wanted a way to speed up the clock without really changing the CMC. Cartel Aristocrat is so good I wanted a way to make her more useful and the Dagger has actually been a really good addition.
Liliana, Heretical Healer is really good in this deck and leaving behind a 2/2 when she flips is so awesome. I like that minus ability is -X because most of the creatures I run now are only 2cmc. I have used it to bring back Wall of Omens more often than any other card because enter the battlefield nets us a card, it protects Lili, protects us, and is really good sac fodder for Cartel Aristocrat. Her +2 ability fills up our graveyard for huge Rallys but our cmc is so low that I often find I dump my hand really quick and her discard doesn't even affect me anymore. I haven't used her Ult yet but I have gotten really close on several occasions. The cool thing is that it let's you go ham with Cartel Aristocrat and Blood Artist. You can sac every creature you control and at the end of your turn you can do it again. With Rally it gets even more nuts as she doubles Athreos's ability. Which, btw Athreos and Rally is crazy if you can get them together. I do occasionally find myself wishing that Rally was Immortal servitude because then the creatures would be permanent but...I end up saccing them all anyway so that's good. Plus Rallying back a Cartel with a bunch of Tidehollows let's you exile a bunch of their cards permanently if you stack the triggers right so there is that.
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I don't think switching Bob for wall is correct. Bob is card advantage whereas wall is card parity. You say you want wall for against faster aggro decks but we already play cartel aristocrat and blood artist, not to mention infinite chump blockers. I've never had an issue with fast small creature decks and I take 6 damage from my lands each game easily. Not only that, but Bob can attack which is so relevant.
Also, I don't like skirsdag high priest but there's gotta be better cards than silver inlaid dagger out there.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
You might be surprised by the Silver-Inlaid Dagger. Normally I wouldn't suggest such jank but the fact of the matter is that Cartel Aristocrat is not fast. You can spend all day blocking but I removed Lingering Souls because everytime I played the card it felt bad. Like really bad. Especially when I had Athreos and Cartel out and I was just sac chumping just to stay alive and died anyway. You would think, "Man, Athreos, Cartel, and 2 copies of Lingering Souls would be good!" but its not. Athreos is a major nonbo with Lingering Souls and that can't be ignored. I thought to myself, "Man I expected Athreos to be so good. I'm going to have to dump him." I considered against it hence why I went with Squadron Hawks. I can't just chump as long as Lingering Souls normally can but I figured that would be okay but then I noticed that I needed a faster clock, a way to make Cartel more relevant, scarier even. She gets through but most of the time my opponent was able to simply outrace me because they have 3/X creatures or better. Cartel simply isn't relevant enough, fast enough. Before the Dagger it seemed like my only real chance of winning, against any non-aggressive deck, was to hope I can "combo out" on sacs of creatures with Blood Artist on the field. Blood Artist is a known quantity and people don't usually waste much time killing him especially when our only other real threat is an otherwise vanilla 2/2.
Bob's ability to attack has been equally irrelevant and the best performance I've ever seen out of him he did 4 damage before he had to become a chump blocker and I still lost that game. Wall is only card parity the first time you cast it but you can get value out of it from Rally, Athreos, and Lili. Wall is surprisingly good and I've been much more satisfied with the Wall than I ever have been with Bob. Also, people are fully willing to put the Wall back in your hand off an Athreos trigger than Bob which means that it still draws you another card and saves you that much more life with whatever else it blocks in the future. If you have Bob and Cartel out what are you going to sac to Cartel to get it through. Do you really want to lose Bob? I don't care if I lose the Wall most of the time. Wall also gets value from Rally that Bob cannot. I can only gain life two ways: Lili as a creature (usually doesn't last long enough for that) or Blood Artist and he doesn't usually stick for long either so saving the life lost from Bob and anything that doesn't fly the opponent can/will attack with is worth it. Also, having Wall up with Cartel with Dagger equipped leaves you free to swing with the Cartel knowing that you have a pretty hardy defender behind to save you without having to lose life to Bob and the attack that Bob lets through so you don't have to lose him to a chump block. Also, Wall doesn't die to red sweepers, the -1/-1 Night shrine thing from Kamigawa, Zealous Persecution, and the small black sweepers, etc providing further protection from anything else the opponent might attack with (like maybe Snappy from every U/X/X list ever).
These changes may look like jank on paper. I agree but I'm saying, in practice, they work out much better than I would have expected. I fully expected to be disappointed by these changes but they worked out well enough that I felt like they were worth sharing otherwise I wouldn't have. In other colors there probably are better things to do in those slots but for B/W I haven't found anything I really like. Outside of the Bob<->Wall switch, do you have any recommendations to try over the Dagger? (Though Bob almost makes Dagger even better because he is also a human and becomes a 5/1 attacker).
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Where Bob costs us life the Wall saves us life by being a reliable blocker against faster decks. It still draws us a card and it doesn't feel bad to sac to Cartel Aristocrat in a pinch. Also, it combos much better with Rally the Ancestors than Bob does. Bob would be exiled by Rally's trigger before netting us another card. With Wall we still get our card
This is actually incorrect since both triggers happen at begining of your up keep you would put rallys trigger on the stack then Bob's. Bob would come off first then rallys betting you a card from Bob
You are right. I had been playing it where Rally exiles at the end step. Each time I've played it I have sacked all my stuff immediately because I was doing it in response to my opponent's stuff or at their end step so the creatures never stuck around long enough to be exiled.
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This deck is just kinda garbage to combo and weak to bloodmoon and high tide effects. I'd suggest 4 path main as a hedge and then sb hate for combo. Fair decks and creature decks we can interact with are our bread and butter. I don't particularly like his abzan list. Tukatongue is the worst 1 drop, whereas young wolf is way better way more often. Leaves behind a larger, non-token creature and can block glistener elf for days. It's harder to stick him in the bin though, so if youre trying to go all in on the rally plan, he's probably worse.
Edit: my current list. Cuy bobs for evolutionary leap after durnam suggested it. Very impressed with the card as another aristocrat.
Considering -1 Tukatongue thallid and +1 ascendancy. I just wish there was a better 1 drop than him.
Anyways, after playing with evolutionary leap and with how strong voice and abzan ascendancy both are, I find it hard to reason against playing the abzan version if this deck. We have the best traveler in voice, one of the best aristocrats in leap now, and the second best artist in ascendancy.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Instead of the Dagger I'd go for Blade of the Bloodchief. It does much more for all your potential beaters. It can even turn Viscera Seers and Blood Artists into gross giant Goyf-killers. It's cheaper to equip and the counters are permanent, so you can spread the love around.
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GW Hatebears more like HateBROS BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
My build doesn't run Viscera Seers (though I have seriously considered them for the additional sac outlet to trigger Lili) and while the the advantage of being able to spread the love and make the Blood Artists relevant is nice, its also slower than the dagger. I've played against G/x/x decks where simply equipping the Dagger to Mirrodin Crusader instigates the scoop. Cartel Aristocrat is SLOW by herself. Without something like Falkenrath Aristocrat in my B/W list, I needed someway to close out games faster. Things like Blood Artist and Athreos help but Blood Artist is a removal magnet so he doesn't usually stick around long against decks that can interact. I've even suited up a Doomed Traveler and got in for 4 a couple times before suiting up his spirit token and proceeding to swing some more until forcing the chump block, and trade, with a Vampire Nighthawk. I know it doesn't seem like much but against things like control it turns another otherwise slow starting hand of Path, Traveler, Land, Land, Land, Rally, Dagger into something keep-able because you are still putting them 5 down by turn 3 even if you draw nothing else. That's equivalent to a solo Goblin Guide but with the longevity of knowing that unless they Path your Traveler (totally willing to take that trade btw) you are still going to be swinging for a Delver's 3 in the air from the token. It allows you to trade up your creatures in a lot of situations and apply pressure in plenty of others and is decent discard fodder to Lili in others.
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I hate multi-posting on a thread but I though I might through some thoughts out there regarding Liliana, Heretical Healer. Don't get me wrong, she is good in this deck and quite frankly I don't think she really has a place in Modern outside this deck (or maybe Angel of Glory's Rise Humanimator) but I find that sometimes her abilities are just not what this deck is interested in. Her ultimate is great but best rule of thumb for Planeswalkers is you don't run them for their ultimate because you will almost never see it. So that means we have to evaluate her for her other abilities. Her discard can be nice to stock the 'yard for a huge Rally but I've run into situations where actually using her +2 ability would mean I have to toss a Rally the Ancestors or a Path to Exile...neither of which you would ever willingly get rid of. This deck does give you a LOT of control as to when she flips but sometimes your opponent's will do something stupid to flip her for you and then you may not be prepared to use her +2. Her -X is actually pretty good and a lot of time I use it to bring back a Wall of Omens (for the card draw).
Btw, I'm still a huge fan of Wall of Omens over Bob in this deck. I find that the stall factor it provides saves me SO much life. I can actually say that it has bought me the time I need to win the game. I've been able to keep 1 land hands with two Walls on the draw knowing that if I can just hit my second drop I can stall out long enough to get my game plan up and running. And it actually works! The wall just saves you so much life its incredible. There are a lot of creatures in modern that see play that just can't get passed the wall.
Anyway, Lili, I don't think she is a deck staple. I think I might replace her with Viscera Seer and see how I like that. I will say that Lili is occasionally better as a creature but getting the Zombie token does go a long way to make up for it. You have to consider that Lili starts off as a creature and one of your non-token creatures has to die to flip her which means that you actually lose 2 creatures.
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Did people give up on a Mardu version of this deck? If there is anybody who could talk about their experience with it would be much appreciated. I feel like Butcher of the horde in the right deck could definitely find a place in modern. I'm sure maybe the abzan version might be better, but I think Mardu could be so much more aggressive. I also love the idea of blade of the bloodchief that someone mentioned before.
alphagprime, I agree lilis not as great as I expected to be, however I do not think she is as bad as you are making her sound. You don't need to + her, there has been times where I have not activated her at all and spent and extra turn dumping cards prior to activation (usually though my hand is dumped by that time). Then there are times where her activation is great! Discarding a land when you have 5 in play feels amazing, discarding a lingering souls then being able to use its flashback provides flexibility I would not have imagined. At the very least you can -x to get back a 1 or 2 drop while also getting the token so its a wash.
the per
I have found lili to be very matchup dependent. Against blue I always side her out because that is the best card our opponent can remand other than rally losing valuable tempo. I run her as a one of right now because of this.
Did people give up on a Mardu version of this deck? If there is anybody who could talk about their experience with it would be much appreciated. I feel like Butcher of the horde in the right deck could definitely find a place in modern. I'm sure maybe the abzan version might be better, but I think Mardu could be so much more aggressive. I also love the idea of blade of the bloodchief that someone mentioned before.
The problem with the Mardu verion (and aristocrats in general) is that the Mardu version wants to grind until it can get an aristocrat on the field. The issue is that once you sac your creatures, you have no efficent way to recur your board because there aren't a lot of effiencnt enablers. (gravecrawler and bloodghast are the only two sac engines that are effiencent in my book). So the issue is that you have to play some kind of grindy midrange game with disruption b/c those two engines aren't really fast. I'm not saying that a mardu version isn't good enough, but it certainly needs to be approached from a faster angle. (tbh the main way I see this deck moving up the tiers is by a reprint of Carrion Feeder as he would work perfectly with gravecrawler.) Also try a return to the ranks as someone posted an abzan version that used that card as well as low drop and satyr wayfinder as an engine for the deck.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Feeder is nice but I wish they'd just give us Goblin Bombardment so we could go straight to Modern Zombardment.
One thing I've noticed, but refrained from chastising people about since I don't get much play-time myself, is people skimping on the interaction cards then complaining about getting rolled over by combo or whatnot. All three main colour combinations have access to great removal, discard and disruption. The main 'engine' of this deck is too slow for us to go all-in. I run four discard slots and six removal slots all the time.
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GW Hatebears more like HateBROS BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
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one mana
4 viscera seer
4 doomed traveler
two mana
4 voice of resurgence
4 tidehollow sculler
4 satyr wayfinder
4 blood artist
2 cartel aristocrat
2 eternal witness
4 rally the ancestors
sorceries : 4
4 return to the ranks
enchantments : 4
4 abzan ascendancy
lands : 20
4 windswept heath
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
2 plains
1 forest
1 swamp
1 vault of the archangel
1 gavony township
Pretty similar to yukuhiro's list, i've opted for rally the ancestors rather than CoCo. I found i gets you a lot more than two creatures for the same mana cost, and for 5 mana you get eternal witness back as well! Witness can't bring back rally since it exiles itself but it can get back return to the ranks of rallies milled with satyr wayfinder.
The «drawback» of rally is the exile during next upkeep clause, but with a sac outlet you can get all the die triggers from abzan ascendancy, blood artist, voice of resurgence, doomed traveller, you can sac tidehollow sculler in response to its own trigger, etc.
You can even setup a surprise block. Instant speed gives us lots of options, but return to the ranks is still the better spell. Having 8x mass reanimate spells is pretty sweet and viscera seer scrying help dig into more.
4 windswept heath
3 marsh flats
2 godless shrine
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
2 razorverge thicket
1 dryad arbor
1 plains
2 forest
2 swamp
4 doomed traveler
4 young wolf
2 tukatongue thallid
4 viscera seer
4 dark confidant
4 cartel aristocrat
4 voice of resurgence
4 blood artist
3 Liliana, heretical healer
2 abzan ascendancy
2 collected company
This is mostly to play with right now. It's a very unrefined list, but it has direction. I sacrificed removal for just a better commitment to the field. Sideboard is up in the air, but I'm gonna lean heavily for answers to twin
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
4 marsh flats
4 bloodstained mire
3 blood crypt
1 tectonic edge
4 godless shrine
2 swamp
3 plains
2 mountains
1 stensia bloodhall
2 viscera seer
4 doomed traveler
4 bloodghast
4 cartel aristocrat
4 blood artist
2 liliana, heretical healer/liliana, defiant necromancer
2 falkenrath aristocrat
1 olivia voldaren
4 path to exile
4 lingering souls
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 slaughter games
2 relic of progenitus
1 shatterstorm
2 stony silence
1 olivia voldaren
3 tidehollow sculler
4 duress
This is just a rough list and can still be improved, but right now I'm kinda lost on how to do it. Was so used to playing BW tokens, so this kinda mimics that. Any help would be appreciated
It could answer Twin, Rhino, Goyf and other non-hexproof threats
You might need quite a number of critters to sack to her
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Blood Artist
2x Skirsdag High Priest
4x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Athreos, God of Passage
3x Liliana, Heretical Healer
1x Gods Willing
4x Path to Exile
2x Orzhov Charm
2x Zealous Persecution
4x Lingering Souls
2 Rally the Ancestors
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
7x Plains
7x Swamp
Its pretty close to the suggested list but doesn't have Bob. The card draw hasn't really been an issue yet but I have notice a few more glaring issues with the deck so far, at least this version. Those issues are with some extreme nonbos.
1. Athreos, God of Passage vs. Lingering Souls
Both cards are really good. Lingering Souls is awesome with Blood Artist and Cartel Aristocrat. However, they don't help devotion at all and fairly easily bypass Athreos' ability that makes him so good in this deck.
2. Tidehollow Sculler vs. Cartel Aristocrat
Tidehollow is excellent with Athreos because they don't want to give you the chance to cast it again so they usually take the 3 but why would you ever want to sac it to Cartel Aristocrat? Having plenty of creatures to dump really but Tidehollow just doesn't want to go. To that end it doesn't work particularly well if you have multiples out and a Skirsdag you really want to activate.
3. Mana count vs. Rally the Ancestors
Does Rally the Ancestors work with Athreos? Can he come back with that? I thought the rule was that he is only not a creature when on the battlefield and your devotion is less than 7 but if he's in your library, exile, or the graveyard he is a creature regardless of what your devotion is. Beyond that I find myself very seldom in a place where I can cast or really make use of Rally because I have maybe Doomed Traveler in the yard and bunch of Lingering souls making Rally worse.
I almost wonder if the W/B version doesn't want something like Bloodghast and Viscera Seer.
I wonder if Lingering Souls should be Squadron Hawks because it works well with Athreos (both devotion and his ability), is good for chumps and sac to Cartel. Depending on how you play it they can also be an infinite source with Mistveil Plains. Skirsdag demands an answer but can easily be answered by clearing the rest of our board as well so maybe that should be something else as well. Anyone have any thoughts on the W/B version?
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Sunpetal Grove
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures
1 Viscera Seer
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Young Wolf
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Blood Artist
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Dark Confidant
4 Lingering Souls
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Rally the Ancestors
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Stony Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Stony Silence
After not playing Abzan Aristocrats in favor of abzan company I am back to playing the deck again due to the release of lilliana and evolutionary leap.
I tried for awhile to play collected company, and it was just terrible. The payoff was not enough for having trying to do a hit or miss combat trick/2 for 1 card that cost 4 mana. It was tough to execute against too many decks due to either too low of an impact late game/blue counters (remand hurts a lot)/not being proactive enough.
EVOLUTIONARY LEAP IS SIMPLY A BETTER CARD.
This card is absolutely insane in the abzan build. It can act as an additional sac engine (which was key!) keep your low mana creatures coming when you would otherwise run out of gas being the primo card advantage generator this deck was missing, and is nearly as fast as co company, but with a much more consistent payoff.
The mana base was very screwy with this card however and I think that can easily be fixed by running additional fetch lands (not due to budget reasons and waiting for bfz). I often was only able to get 2 green mana sources on the field which caused a bottle neck. Playing leap and not activating it when it comes into play hurts.
On to the matchup analysis.
I played in a fnm tourney of 35+ players for a total of 6 rounds. I played the following decks: Burn, Twin, Grixis Delve, Modern Cheeri0s Reboot, Cruel Control, then a jund land destruction brew. I went 4-2 losing to twin and delve.
All my wins come from favorable matchups, and my loses were unlucky/outplayed. So its really hard to determine how well this deck performed.
Burn game 3 was the only interesting game, I was down to 2 life then was able to get back in it via leap/seer with blood artist. I was leaping twice a turn due to only have 2 green mana, but with seer I was in no real danger of being burned out due to being able to get above 6 life at any time. He was also stuck on 2 mana most of the game. After turn 5 and you are still alive leap is absolutely bonkers.
Twin was a blowout, no removal game 1, and he had a spellskite game 2. He landed twin both games.
Grixis delve was a fluke I believe, game 1 I took easily, game 2 I misplayed, on turn 1 I played a swamp, turn 2 a forest when I had a fetch land that could fetch for a plains. I expected him to have sided in blood moon but didn't believe he already had it, I was wrong and turn 3 he played it and was never able to find a plains. Game 3 I kept drawing green cards without greeen mana, and at the exactly the right time he thought scoured a Forrest to my graveyard (WTF!) and wasn't able to play any of my cards.
Cherrio's he was on the play and went off on turn 2. Game 2 I path his Puresteel Paladin leading to a blowout. Game 3, he had to waste his grapeshot on my Eidolon of Rhetoric and drew into a path so I was in no danger of losing.
Cruel ultimatum went perfectly, he wasn't able to deal with bloodsoaked champion and by the time he could cast cruel ultimatium my board presence was looking at lethal through it. Aristocrats laughs at control decks.
Against land jund destruction, I am not sure how it went as it was after 1 AM. I was simply able to grind him out.
Will post more as I think about this deck more.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Wall of Omens
4x Squadron Hawks
4x Blood Artist
4x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Athreos, God of Passage
3x Liliana, Heretical Healer
4x Path to Exile
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Rally the Ancestors
2x Silver-Inlaid Dagger
LANDS (21)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
7x Plains
6x Swamp
I made a few changes to the deck list:
OUT: Lingering Souls
IN: Squadron Hawks
Lingering Souls is a non-bo with both Athreos, God of Passage, Liliana, Heretical Healer, and Rally the Ancestors. Its a good card and I would consider running it again if I removed either Athreos or Rally. Until then Squadron Hawks plays better with both even if it is technically worse with Cartel Aristocrat. Also, Squawks has some synergy with Mistveil Plains and Liliana, Heretical Healer after she flips.
OUT: Dark Confidant
IN: Wall of Omens
Where Bob costs us life the Wall saves us life by being a reliable blocker against faster decks. It still draws us a card and it doesn't feel bad to sac to Cartel Aristocrat in a pinch. Also, it combos much better with Rally the Ancestors than Bob does. Bob would be exiled by Rally's trigger before netting us another card. With Wall we still get our card.
OUT: Skirsdag High Priest
IN: Silver-Inlaid Dagger
While the Priest is better with Athreos and Rally its ability and body are simply too small and slow for what this deck does and wants to do. Its also fair to hard to keep Cartel + Priest + 1 other creature + 1 creature to sac without your opponent doing anything about it. Also, his ability cannot be activated when brought back with Rally so that makes it extra bad because that is when his ability is most useful. On the other hand, Silver-Inlaid Dagger makes Cartel Aristocrat a 4 turn clock (by herself) which is awesome because she is super easy to protect and to give evasion too. It also works well with Liliana, Heretical Healer in creature mode as well as Doomed Traveler in a pinch. In the board I am running 3 Mirrodin Crusader which is a two turn clock and is really good against Abzan, Boggles, Infect, and CoCo Elves.
Mostly I felt the deck was too slow and wanted a way to speed up the clock without really changing the CMC. Cartel Aristocrat is so good I wanted a way to make her more useful and the Dagger has actually been a really good addition.
Liliana, Heretical Healer is really good in this deck and leaving behind a 2/2 when she flips is so awesome. I like that minus ability is -X because most of the creatures I run now are only 2cmc. I have used it to bring back Wall of Omens more often than any other card because enter the battlefield nets us a card, it protects Lili, protects us, and is really good sac fodder for Cartel Aristocrat. Her +2 ability fills up our graveyard for huge Rallys but our cmc is so low that I often find I dump my hand really quick and her discard doesn't even affect me anymore. I haven't used her Ult yet but I have gotten really close on several occasions. The cool thing is that it let's you go ham with Cartel Aristocrat and Blood Artist. You can sac every creature you control and at the end of your turn you can do it again. With Rally it gets even more nuts as she doubles Athreos's ability. Which, btw Athreos and Rally is crazy if you can get them together. I do occasionally find myself wishing that Rally was Immortal servitude because then the creatures would be permanent but...I end up saccing them all anyway so that's good. Plus Rallying back a Cartel with a bunch of Tidehollows let's you exile a bunch of their cards permanently if you stack the triggers right so there is that.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Also, I don't like skirsdag high priest but there's gotta be better cards than silver inlaid dagger out there.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Bob's ability to attack has been equally irrelevant and the best performance I've ever seen out of him he did 4 damage before he had to become a chump blocker and I still lost that game. Wall is only card parity the first time you cast it but you can get value out of it from Rally, Athreos, and Lili. Wall is surprisingly good and I've been much more satisfied with the Wall than I ever have been with Bob. Also, people are fully willing to put the Wall back in your hand off an Athreos trigger than Bob which means that it still draws you another card and saves you that much more life with whatever else it blocks in the future. If you have Bob and Cartel out what are you going to sac to Cartel to get it through. Do you really want to lose Bob? I don't care if I lose the Wall most of the time. Wall also gets value from Rally that Bob cannot. I can only gain life two ways: Lili as a creature (usually doesn't last long enough for that) or Blood Artist and he doesn't usually stick for long either so saving the life lost from Bob and anything that doesn't fly the opponent can/will attack with is worth it. Also, having Wall up with Cartel with Dagger equipped leaves you free to swing with the Cartel knowing that you have a pretty hardy defender behind to save you without having to lose life to Bob and the attack that Bob lets through so you don't have to lose him to a chump block. Also, Wall doesn't die to red sweepers, the -1/-1 Night shrine thing from Kamigawa, Zealous Persecution, and the small black sweepers, etc providing further protection from anything else the opponent might attack with (like maybe Snappy from every U/X/X list ever).
These changes may look like jank on paper. I agree but I'm saying, in practice, they work out much better than I would have expected. I fully expected to be disappointed by these changes but they worked out well enough that I felt like they were worth sharing otherwise I wouldn't have. In other colors there probably are better things to do in those slots but for B/W I haven't found anything I really like. Outside of the Bob<->Wall switch, do you have any recommendations to try over the Dagger? (Though Bob almost makes Dagger even better because he is also a human and becomes a 5/1 attacker).
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
This is actually incorrect since both triggers happen at begining of your up keep you would put rallys trigger on the stack then Bob's. Bob would come off first then rallys betting you a card from Bob
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Edit: my current list. Cuy bobs for evolutionary leap after durnam suggested it. Very impressed with the card as another aristocrat.
3 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
2 razorverge thicket
2 godless shrine
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
2 plains
2 swamp
1 forest
1 dryad arbor
4 doomed traveler
4 young wolf
1 Tukatongue thallid
4 voice of resurgence
ARISTOCRATS
4 viscera seer
4 cartel aristocrat
3 evolutionary leap
4 blood artist
2 abzan ascendancy
3 Liliana, heretical healer
EXTRA
4 Path to exile
Considering -1 Tukatongue thallid and +1 ascendancy. I just wish there was a better 1 drop than him.
Anyways, after playing with evolutionary leap and with how strong voice and abzan ascendancy both are, I find it hard to reason against playing the abzan version if this deck. We have the best traveler in voice, one of the best aristocrats in leap now, and the second best artist in ascendancy.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Btw, I'm still a huge fan of Wall of Omens over Bob in this deck. I find that the stall factor it provides saves me SO much life. I can actually say that it has bought me the time I need to win the game. I've been able to keep 1 land hands with two Walls on the draw knowing that if I can just hit my second drop I can stall out long enough to get my game plan up and running. And it actually works! The wall just saves you so much life its incredible. There are a lot of creatures in modern that see play that just can't get passed the wall.
Anyway, Lili, I don't think she is a deck staple. I think I might replace her with Viscera Seer and see how I like that. I will say that Lili is occasionally better as a creature but getting the Zombie token does go a long way to make up for it. You have to consider that Lili starts off as a creature and one of your non-token creatures has to die to flip her which means that you actually lose 2 creatures.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
This is just a thought, so don't throw rocks at me lol. I was playing around with the idea of Plunge into darkness, gather the townsfolk, and faith's shield. I used to play gather the townsfolk in a Death's Shadow deck with these cards it was so freaking powerful. 5 tokens on turn 3 with a little left over. Obviously you would need to play Leyline of Sanctity in the board, but yea it's just an idea.
the per
I have found lili to be very matchup dependent. Against blue I always side her out because that is the best card our opponent can remand other than rally losing valuable tempo. I run her as a one of right now because of this.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
The problem with the Mardu verion (and aristocrats in general) is that the Mardu version wants to grind until it can get an aristocrat on the field. The issue is that once you sac your creatures, you have no efficent way to recur your board because there aren't a lot of effiencnt enablers. (gravecrawler and bloodghast are the only two sac engines that are effiencent in my book). So the issue is that you have to play some kind of grindy midrange game with disruption b/c those two engines aren't really fast. I'm not saying that a mardu version isn't good enough, but it certainly needs to be approached from a faster angle. (tbh the main way I see this deck moving up the tiers is by a reprint of Carrion Feeder as he would work perfectly with gravecrawler.) Also try a return to the ranks as someone posted an abzan version that used that card as well as low drop and satyr wayfinder as an engine for the deck.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
One thing I've noticed, but refrained from chastising people about since I don't get much play-time myself, is people skimping on the interaction cards then complaining about getting rolled over by combo or whatnot. All three main colour combinations have access to great removal, discard and disruption. The main 'engine' of this deck is too slow for us to go all-in. I run four discard slots and six removal slots all the time.
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!