I really like your bw combo focused list alphagprime, but I only counted 58 cards and was wondering what the last two were or if I missed something that you mentioned later. I'm going to brew up a mardu human focused version soon here, and I'll test it out at my lgs as soon as I can, maybe post a list for you guys. It'll probably be different and sub-optimal, I've noticed my play style isn't always conducive to winning, but I'm more in it for "doing what I want to," as in making the deck work within my weird parameters and quirks, so please, bear with me. I've really been loving dega colors lately so I'm looking forward to playing this.
You are right. I added 4 Kalastria Healers and took out 2 lands. It improves, if only barely, the consistency of the combo by allowing you to net a few ETB triggers before you start saccing things for your death triggers.
Hey guys, How again do we not die horribly to a side-boarded Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace? since they are replacement effects and both blood artist and cutthroat resolve on creatures hitting graveyards, kinda like legacy/vintage helm of obedience combo. since i am seeing sideboards without enchantment removal.
Keening Apparition, Warpriest of Thune, et al. works. There's also Mortify. Option #2: Make like Twin and go on the beat down path. Depending on which deck you are running against this can work quite well with things like Mirran Crusader and the like. That's also why I like running 4 Cutthroats with 4 Kalastria Healers. It gives you another way to "simulate" the combo without actually having access to it. It should help to draw the game out long enough to find an answer or to simply beat down depending on which option you choose.
Hey guys, How again do we not die horribly to a side-boarded Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace? since they are replacement effects and both blood artist and cutthroat resolve on creatures hitting graveyards, kinda like legacy/vintage helm of obedience combo. since i am seeing sideboards without enchantment removal.
I played a few games against Grafdigger's Cage and a friendly game against Leyline of the Void and you kinda just power through it. It is super rough and I probably should have more enchantment removal in my list, at least in the sideboard. Tidehollows can grab them, but I agree that I should have something more reliable. I was thinking of adding one or two copies of Utter End, but there might be something quicker that I don't know about.
[card]Mortify[card] is another real option if you are looking for versatility. Utter end hits PW though and that can be very relevant against Tron. Typically Tron can't handle the speed of the combo but its not always a bad idea to have a back up plan.
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So I have been looking at this thread for a few months and now it seems to be taking off and I have just managed to maybe get a bit of money to make
a list(I also just ordered living end and it hasn't even arrived yet-I have a bit of an addiction). So my question is what would a budget list look like?
I have 4x rally's and I think that's about it other than two path's. Can anyone recommend me a list? I think I would prefer a straight up bw version
that focuses mainly on the combo. I should mention that I am very fond of the idea of vault of the archangel and also the redundancy of both blood
artist and cutthroat with the kalastria healer, so a list that runs those would be preferable. Thanks for the help
Edit: after playing a couple games on cockatrice I think that I should also maybe try a list that also has a decent chance even without rally the ancestors.
Mortify is another real option if you are looking for versatility. Utter end hits PW though and that can be very relevant against Tron. Typically Tron can't handle the speed of the combo but its not always a bad idea to have a back up plan.
I saw Mortify but thinking of trying Utter End instead because it also hits artifacts as well as planeswalkers, so it can hit Grafdigger's Cage, which can be pesky for the deck, or at least my version since there is a lot of graveyard shenanigans.
I don't see the benefit of Kalastria Healer since it only triggers on Allies, though that might just be my version with almost no allies.
I also don't like Atheros in the deck since it actually doesn't work well with Bloodghast or Geralf's Messenger, since it is better for them to let it go to my hand.
I am also thinking of adding some more token generation to add a constant creature generation with either Bitterblossom and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad since it will give me creatures on slow turns.
So I have been looking at this thread for a few months and now it seems to be taking off and I have just managed to maybe get a bit of money to make
a list(I also just ordered living end and it hasn't even arrived yet-I have a bit of an addiction). So my question is what would a budget list look like?
I have 4x rally's and I think that's about it other than two path's. Can anyone recommend me a list? I think I would prefer a straight up bw version
that focuses mainly on the combo. I should mention that I am very fond of the idea of vault of the archangel and also the redundancy of both blood
artist and cutthroat with the kalastria healer, so a list that runs those would be preferable. Thanks for the help
Edit: after playing a couple games on cockatrice I think that I should also maybe try a list that also has a decent chance even without rally the ancestors.
The list I posted is EXTREMELY budget minus the lands, which aren't even that expensive either. Now, I will say I didn't build the deck with the purpose of being budget, it just ended up that way.
Mortify is another real option if you are looking for versatility. Utter end hits PW though and that can be very relevant against Tron. Typically Tron can't handle the speed of the combo but its not always a bad idea to have a back up plan.
I saw Mortify but thinking of trying Utter End instead because it also hits artifacts as well as planeswalkers, so it can hit Grafdigger's Cage, which can be pesky for the deck, or at least my version since there is a lot of graveyard shenanigans.
I don't see the benefit of Kalastria Healer since it only triggers on Allies, though that might just be my version with almost no allies.
I also don't like Atheros in the deck since it actually doesn't work well with Bloodghast or Geralf's Messenger, since it is better for them to let it go to my hand.
I am also thinking of adding some more token generation to add a constant creature generation with either Bitterblossom and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad since it will give me creatures on slow turns.
If you run 4x Zulaport Cutthroat in the list then 4x Kalastria Healer makes 8 Allies. That isn't a lot but its enough especially for the combo. Worst case scenario, you combo with 1 Healer and its your only Ally. What else would you have had in that slot? Tidehollow Sculler? Geralf's Messenger? Would that other card be better or worse. If its Tidehollow I say worse. If its Geralf's Messenger I'd say way better. That's why I chose Healer. If you have no Healers then it doesn't really matter if you consider that you wouldn't have had the other card you would have put in its slot either. But its only bad if you have 1 and it would have been better as something else. Now consider you have two Kalastria Healers and they are your only Allies. Is Messenger better or worse? Well...technically worse since Messenger represents up two 4 damage and two Healers is 4 damage AND 4 life. That means you have to have 1 Healer and 3 other Allies to match that. If any of those other Allies are other Healers then it just gets stupid because you trigger each Healer simultaneously. Its exponential
Now remember, that's just them coming IN to the battlefield, that's counting ONLY Allies. Since your only other Ally is Cutthroat you are going to get more triggers off of creatures leaving the field too. The worst possible combination of Healer and Cutthroat is 2 triggers in which means you need 18 going out to kill the opponent at 20 life. Each Healer trigger you get is 1 less Cutthroat/Artist trigger you need.
Geralf's Messenger is the only other card that comes close to giving you that kind of output and the Healers give you exponential returns, something Messenger can't do. If I were going to add Messenger to the list though I would put him in over Squadron Hawk. If you are trying to combo, Messenger represents 6 damage by himself (w/ Artist/Cutthroat) which is better than all 4 Squadron Hawks. Pawn of Ulamog helps the Hawks but Messenger is still better. 4 Hawks = 4 Pawn triggers. 1 Messenger = 2 Pawn Triggers. Messenger + Artist + Pawn = 8 damage. 4 Hawks + Artist + Pawn = 8 damage. One requires 6 creatures and the other requires 3. The difference is that Messenger is more efficient without Pawn and just as efficient with.
Hawks are better in a situation with R.I.P. and Grafdigger because they give you a lot of ways to do damage in the air. If you add Mistvveil Plains to the mix then you get them out from underneath a Grafdigger's Cage (but not R.I.P.) to have a constant air presence literally pecking away at your opponent's life total.
Healer also helps against Grafdiggers cage because it makes the combo less necessary because you get direct damage just from dropping it. I'm also not a fan of Athreos. I used him for a while but he just didn't cut it. Did nothing more often than anything.
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Yeah, thanks alphagprime-I tired out a proxied aristocrats that was mainly based off of your list with a few changes.
Now I want to say-this archetype seems really good, even my budget and very far from tuned list seemed to do really well against the decks I have
tried it against. My list can be seen here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-08-15-Znf-budget-aristocrats/
I do have a question though, has anyone tried blue? It would not give TOO much for the maindeck, but I think would definitely help against things like twin.
Yeah, thanks alphagprime-I tired out a proxied aristocrats that was mainly based off of your list with a few changes.
Now I want to say-this archetype seems really good, even my budget and very far from tuned list seemed to do really well against the decks I have
tried it against. My list can be seen here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-08-15-Znf-budget-aristocrats/
I do have a question though, has anyone tried blue? It would not give TOO much for the maindeck, but I think would definitely help against things like twin.
Against Twin I would just pack more instant speed removal. Left enough mana up to through down a second spell in the Dispel the first. You can also just try and combo off in response to their combo since yours technically works faster. Or you can run something like Keening Apparition in the board too. It both contributes to the game plan and stops their combo.
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20 lands to even things out at 60. tell me what yall think!
Waaaaay too many 2 drops. Inconsistent greend/white beginning source. You're obviously black, but which is your second primary, white or green? Get rid of the 1 drop that opposes that because blisterpod and doomed traveler should only be played to try to get early. It's not threatening enouhg late game.
@alphagprime..so if you didn't have a budget restriction, what would a true b/w combo build look like? I think messenger would be a great addition.but beyond that what would the main deck consist of?
20 lands to even things out at 60. tell me what yall think!
I don't think that Tidehollow Sculler is a bad card but I don't think its exactly where your deck wants to be. Doomed Traveler and Blisterpod are such good cards I would maybe drop the 3 Tidehollows for 1 more each of Traveler, Pod, and Rally.
Tidehollow gets better the more sac outlets you have because you can use it to permanently get rid of a card in hand. With only 6 sac outlets I don't know that you can use that startegy as often as you might want to.
As always though, play test it and let your experience guide you.
@alphagprime..so if you didn't have a budget restriction, what would a true b/w combo build look like? I think messenger would be a great addition.but beyond that what would the main deck consist of?
Messenger is the only change I would make honestly. Athreos is cool but my experiences with him weren't great. Sometimes he does what you want but most of the time he doesn't. Other than Wall of Omens and Kalastria Healer, there aren't a lot of creatures that I was okay with my opponent putting in my hand.
After play testing it more I don't think I want Kalastria Healer in the deck. Its too cute. As strange as it sounds, one of my favorite cards in the this deck has always been Wall of Omens. It draws cards and slows down your opponents aggressive creatures for a few turns. As long as you have a sac outlet in the 'yard you can always Rally just for the card draw and extra blocker for a turn if you need to buy time. Omes is pretty good with Viscera Seer as well because you can Scry then Draw at certain stages of the game.
Hi, what do you think guys about evolutionary leap? Also, I play the abzan version, but I can't pay for voice of resurgence, any idea of replacement? thx
Evolutionary Leap does a lot of things this deck wants, like find more fuel for the fire. I don't know that I would want to run it in a deck with Rally because you could very easily bury your Rallys. Leap costs mana to activate and puts the new creature in your hand so its a fairly mana intensive operation. I think for that reason I'd want to keep the total cmc of my creatures fairly low.
I would need to play test with it. I think its good but at the same time it could just be too slow and mana intensive. It may be better for more of a value-midrange-toolbox kind of deck than what Aristocrats is. Its hard to evaluate because it has so much value but costs so much to get there.
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20 lands to even things out at 60. tell me what yall think!
Waaaaay too many 2 drops. Inconsistent greend/white beginning source. You're obviously black, but which is your second primary, white or green? Get rid of the 1 drop that opposes that because blisterpod and doomed traveler should only be played to try to get early. It's not threatening enouhg late game.
I see that, yeah. The main question I am asking myself is splashing green and white for Voice of Resurgence worth it? We all know its a broken card and demands to be dealt with when its hits.
If I was to drop some of the 2 drops, Should I add more 1 drops or add more 3 drops with 4 copies of Collected Company? And what 3 drops are would come in? Liliana, Heretical Healer., Mirran Crusader? both are pretty manna specific. personally my favorite would be Geralf's Messenger but that 3B is very rough in a 3 color deck unless we introduce creature mana fixing. other creatures like Teysa, Orzhov Scion and Varolz, the Scar-Striped are both intesting takes but they demand their own direction that could pull us away from perfect synergy with the deck.
I havent dug to terribly deep but in this thread but for more of the mana intensive decks has anyone thought about adding Birds of Paradise to their builds?
I think that it could be a very powerful tool for the Abzan decks to be that much faster. I like it in decks where we are using counters with Abzan Ascendancy. so you can have a 1/2 beat stick. It might help out the Evolutionary Leap budget decks.
I don't think I've seen a list that uses BoP. However, it is interesting that you mention it with Evolutionary Leap because the old Pod decks used to run BoP and Evolutionary Leap is like a fixed Birthing Pod.
So I was thinking about getting into Modern and I really like the Abzan variant of this deck. Do you think it can go face to face with tier 1 and 2 decks, though? I am a little worried about spending hundreds on a deck that loses afterwards.
Also, does anyone have any idea where to start with building the manabase without fetches?
Its never easy to build a 3-color mana base on a budget. You are really looking at Caves of Koilos and Llanowar Wastes on a budget. Just know that, even if the rest of your deck is awesome, you may lose as many games to your mana base as you do for any other number of reasons combined. I know the Abzan lists intrigue you the most but I would consider starting with a two color variant, either Orzhov or Golgari, and building the best version of that deck that you are able too and then branching out later. The biggest thing you have to ask yourself is, "Why do I want to be in three colors? What cards do I want?" That will help you figure out which 2-color combo to start with.
I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of Abzan Ascendency. Its too slow and ends up being a trap. It comes down and buffs your guys only for your guys to start getting outclassed anyway by Tasigur, Gurmag, Rhino, Tarmo, etc. Then you wasted an entire turn for a spell you could have spent casting Pawn of Ulamog which does basically the same thing but is a creature that can come back with Rally the Ancestors and triggers Blood Artist when it dies. Outside of Cartel Aristocrat and Geralf's Messenger, there aren't many creatures in this deck that can get aggressive very easily.
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So I had been testing an abzan deck as I have more of the lands for that than the mardu version, unfortunately I'm not sure
that I can manage a tri color manabase with what I have..so does anyone have a good list for a BW aggro/midrange-ish combo list? I am not sure
that I want something that is all in on the combo so does anyone have a starting list that can still combo off relatively well but doesn't have as hard
a time against counterspells and grave hate? Thanks and I am currently working on making this deck as so far it has been very cheap, I also
would love to be able to start contributing to this thread. Thanks
If Voice of Resurgence is too expensive you could try something like Strangleroot Geist he's really aggro as well and comes back from the grave,
and while he's cheap money wise he does cost 2 Green Mana so maybe that's a little rough.
I love Strangleroot Geist and i think he could be a force to be recon with in this deck. Undying aristocrats sounds like a blast. but at this point if we are going super aggro he will be a hard sell in a list that s mostly black and white.
Personally if someone wanted to slow the deck down to more control based possibly with JUND colors. you could have Falkenrath Aristocrat, and I would like to see some deck with my favorite card Vorapede! but that is even a greater stretch at 3G in the casting cost so very unlikely.
20 lands to even things out at 60. tell me what yall think!
Waaaaay too many 2 drops. Inconsistent greend/white beginning source. You're obviously black, but which is your second primary, white or green? Get rid of the 1 drop that opposes that because blisterpod and doomed traveler should only be played to try to get early. It's not threatening enouhg late game.
I see that, yeah. The main question I am asking myself is splashing green and white for Voice of Resurgence worth it? We all know its a broken card and demands to be dealt with when its hits.
If I was to drop some of the 2 drops, Should I add more 1 drops or add more 3 drops with 4 copies of Collected Company? And what 3 drops are would come in? Liliana, Heretical Healer., Mirran Crusader? both are pretty manna specific. personally my favorite would be Geralf's Messenger but that 3B is very rough in a 3 color deck unless we introduce creature mana fixing. other creatures like Teysa, Orzhov Scion and Varolz, the Scar-Striped are both intesting takes but they demand their own direction that could pull us away from perfect synergy with the deck.
I havent dug to terribly deep but in this thread but for more of the mana intensive decks has anyone thought about adding Birds of Paradise to their builds?
I think that it could be a very powerful tool for the Abzan decks to be that much faster. I like it in decks where we are using counters with Abzan Ascendancy. so you can have a 1/2 beat stick. It might help out the Evolutionary Leap budget decks.
The standard abzan strategy is to run it more combo heavy or lower to the ground with low drops and finishing with a rally. Of them, I think that the combo is more reliable because of satyr wayfinder. It fixes a lot of mana problems for a 3 color deck. In relation to your deck, I would drop the 8 artist effects down. You don't really need that many. I think 10 is too many for 1 drops as they are just too weak in the late game. I would go with 4 seers and 4 bliserpods. Also, always run 4 rallys. Always. Especially if you do add satyr wayfinder.
As for Evolutionary Leap. I've used him quite a lot. Tried to use it as a pod and experimented with adding chord. Still experimenting actually more on that later, though. First, evolutionary leap. In my old abzan value list, Evolutionary Leap was amazing. I used 2 or three in a deck. It's really more of a 4-5 drop than 2 drop so you don't want it early and hence the 2 or 3 of. You will always prioritize something like voice, satyr wayfinder, or absolutely anything else on turn 2. On turn 3, you will want athreos, abzan ascendency, liliana, or a 2 drop and open mana for removal. It also works REALLY well with Dark Confidant. The more creatures you dig out of your deck, the higher chance you will draw land, making dark confidant even better.
Now, as for Chord, Evolutionary Leap, and morbid pod. meeeehhhhh.... Evolutionary leap, as stated is a 4-5 drop. Even with acceleration, It's not as efficient as pod. You don't get to choose what to get and it doesn't come into play. It really fits more as a 5th/6th value sac outlet for decks that dont want to run cartel aristocrat because they aren't agro focused. Still a great card though.
For people interested in the combo aspect of this archetype: anafenza, kin-tree spirit+safehold elite=infinite combo. Couple that with a bunch of cards to fill the yard and you got yourself a combo deck.
For people interested in the combo aspect of this archetype: anafenza, kin-tree spirit+safehold elite=infinite combo. Couple that with a bunch of cards to fill the yard and you got yourself a combo deck.
For people interested in the combo aspect of this archetype: anafenza, kin-tree spirit+safehold elite=infinite combo. Couple that with a bunch of cards to fill the yard and you got yourself a combo deck.
holy crap! awesome.
I'm thinking of adding Kitchen Finks and Anafenza to the deck now.
The "combo" is actually just satyr way finder and really the ancestors. Often times, you can get enough in the bin with chump blocking and satyr wayfinder. When you have enough artists and body replacers/persistent creatures.
If you want to be fancy, you can add return to the ranks or chord of calling. Sac half your creatures and use the rest to combine the rest back. It chord into a second artist or even an artist if one isn't in the bin
I'm looking to move from orzhov into Mardu.
Would anyone be kind enough to break down a decent mardu manabase. I'm struggling to figure it out.
If someone could design me a fetchless manabase for mardu and then the purchases I should make moving into fetches I would really appreciate it.
Don't have any friends who could help!
Thanks!
I suggest using proxies before committing. That said, my base land formula is:
2 of each pertinent shockland
+
Enough basics to cast every important spell
+
Ghost quarters as needed by your meta
+
All the fetches as the rest of your land.
So I have been lurking in this thread for awhile and I thought I would give my take on Abzan Aristocrats. It's a zombie version of the deck that focuses on the synergies with gravecrawler, Satyr Wayfinder, Tidehollow Sculler, and Liliana, Heretical Healer (lili produces a zombie on flip and sculler is a zombie). It is still a very rough deck but there is the premise
For people interested in the combo aspect of this archetype: anafenza, kin-tree spirit+safehold elite=infinite combo. Couple that with a bunch of cards to fill the yard and you got yourself a combo deck.
holy crap! awesome.
I'm thinking of adding Kitchen Finks and Anafenza to the deck now.
So, i first discovered the deck from a Frank Karsten video(Link) of Ken Yukuhiro's Next-Level Abzan, i tried it on cockatrice and didn't really like it that much
Then Sam Pardee did a video(Link) on the Steve Rubin take on the deck, it again interested me but being pretty much the same list it let me down again.
(I know that the videos were already posted, but for the people who didn't watch them here they are)
The BFZ spoilers dropped, Zulaport and Blisterpod got to me, and made me wanna build the deck. So I've come up with this Abzan Value-Midrange list:
It's pretty similar to Ken's list, just more redundant, also similar to herenorthere's Orzhov list.
I like to build my decks like a Kalasnikov, big easy pieces:
The deck can have the problem of drawing just 1 of the 3 pillars of the deck, but it think it's an inherit flaw of the aristocrats, so all normal there.
I like having all of this redundancy though, making opponent removal irrelevant even on Zulaport and Artist. Abzan Ascendancy is a little bit slow but it turns an already decent board state in a winning one, Collected Company allowed me to come back or close the deal a number of time, so it's staying in; pretty much the same thing is valid for Return to the Ranks. The latest addition is Evolutionary Leap didn't have the chance to test it that much, but it seams really promising, maybe i could cut a Company to try and play 3 for testing purpose and see how it behaves.
I don't like your list because it's going in different directions.
1) You have Blisterpod, seer and doomed traveler as 1 drops. This is usually for the more combo heavy decks. You said you want to have a more value based deck, There is little value to blisterpod and doomed traveler except as chump blockers and double artist triggers. So that's pretty much for the combo version, not value.
2) You have 4 aristocrats. Aristocrats is for an aggressive version, trying to get unblockable and deal as much damage as possible. Again, not a value version, but aggressive
3) You have full playsets of Cutthroat and artist. Why do you need that many? You never want to drop it on turn 2 because it's a removal magnet. You literally want any other 2 drop. Voice, cartel aristocrat, even two 1 drops are better than an artist card.
4) Only 2 return to the ranks? Why return over rally? I can't imagine you having enough creatures to make convoke work for you
On a value build, Liliana, Heretical healer is amazing. T1 seer, t2 voice, t3 liliana->flipped with killed voie-> return voice->kill voice again. You now have 2 4/4s. Every other turn, you get another.
I could see the deck going also in other directions, like reducing the number of Aristocrats and Artists to put more removal and/or disruption.
And go full combo, i think even in the full combo route Abzan is better than Orzhov, and Mardu seams better than Abzan in the removal+disruption route.
I've also read the whole thread, and i think a couple of people don't get the point that, without all 3 categories of cards (Travelers,Aristocrats and Artist), the deck is not an Aristocrats deck and shouldn't be here in the first place.
I'm also torn on the idea of creating an ecosystem of primers (like the one created for Zoo by lantern) or keep everybody in one thread, on one hand Zoo has a much bigger crowd than aristocrats so it would probably just dilute the discussion a lot, on the other it would keep everything much more tidy.
I would love to hear some feedback
Overall, I think abzan is the strongest setup with the combo version is the strongest abzan. As you stated though, it really isn't an aristocrats deck, but a combo deck. That's why I think we should just move from calling it aristocrats to a 'Morbid' archetype.
Your aristocrat is an example of why it's not really a value deck. If you block with an aristocrat and sac something to protect it, triggering artist. Then it would essentially be the same as just blocking with the sacrificed creature. Aristocrat did nothing for you in that instance. There is no value. If you want to chump block something and block with artist and make him invincible, you would have done the same thing with two creatures blocked anyway. Yes, they lose 1 life, but you're losing board state, and that matters a whole lot more. For it to be a value trade you need to make it valuable. Athreos would shine here. Chump with blisterpod. sac blisterpod with viscera seer, triggger drain, trigger scry, ask opponent if they want to take bolt to the face or get blisterpod back on the field to do it all over again. Even better, you do it with evolutionary leap and get a definite creature for value on top of everything. That's value.
I've explained every card there except Bob. It's guarnateed card draw engine to help you get more bodies to chump block. Once Evolutionary leap is out, you can get creatures out of your deck, increasing your land ratio and minimizing the damage. Lots of value.
For agro:
4x young wolf
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Blisterpod
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Cutthroat
2x Athreos
4x Collected Company
4x Abzan Acendency
3x Return to the ranks
Every threat is a 2 drop or less for agro. Flood the board with lots of small creatures. coco and abzan ascendency. But I think there's a better BW build if you're going that route.
For combo:
4x Satyr wayfinder
4x Rally the ancestors
4x blisterpod
4x tucatounge Thallid
4x voice of ressurgence
blah
blah
This list should be the most obvious to build by now.
And my point in removing the artist is that you don't need 8. Really, you only need 1 and only when you're using your rally. everyone knows this deck and the artist is usually going to be the biggest removal bait. They don't care about your blisterpod or satyr wayfinder. They care about your artist. So you don't cast it until you can cast your rally the ancestors and you can get the sac triggers on the stack regardless of whether or not they kil the artist. hence, you don't need 8 copies.
Is this the place to discuss the deck that was featured by SaffronOlive on mtggoldfish? Or did I just not come across the right?
That deck is an aristocrats deck so yes, you could discuss it here
Also, his list seems relatively decent-I would definitely consider grim haruspex as an addition to that list. He talks about using coco to make sure
that he doesn't run out of steam but I think the haruspex could work too-just remember to sacrifice it before attempting the infinite combo so you don't mill youself out.
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You are right. I added 4 Kalastria Healers and took out 2 lands. It improves, if only barely, the consistency of the combo by allowing you to net a few ETB triggers before you start saccing things for your death triggers.
Keening Apparition, Warpriest of Thune, et al. works. There's also Mortify. Option #2: Make like Twin and go on the beat down path. Depending on which deck you are running against this can work quite well with things like Mirran Crusader and the like. That's also why I like running 4 Cutthroats with 4 Kalastria Healers. It gives you another way to "simulate" the combo without actually having access to it. It should help to draw the game out long enough to find an answer or to simply beat down depending on which option you choose.
[card]Mortify[card] is another real option if you are looking for versatility. Utter end hits PW though and that can be very relevant against Tron. Typically Tron can't handle the speed of the combo but its not always a bad idea to have a back up plan.
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a list(I also just ordered living end and it hasn't even arrived yet-I have a bit of an addiction). So my question is what would a budget list look like?
I have 4x rally's and I think that's about it other than two path's. Can anyone recommend me a list? I think I would prefer a straight up bw version
that focuses mainly on the combo. I should mention that I am very fond of the idea of vault of the archangel and also the redundancy of both blood
artist and cutthroat with the kalastria healer, so a list that runs those would be preferable. Thanks for the help
Edit: after playing a couple games on cockatrice I think that I should also maybe try a list that also has a decent chance even without rally the ancestors.
I saw Mortify but thinking of trying Utter End instead because it also hits artifacts as well as planeswalkers, so it can hit Grafdigger's Cage, which can be pesky for the deck, or at least my version since there is a lot of graveyard shenanigans.
I don't see the benefit of Kalastria Healer since it only triggers on Allies, though that might just be my version with almost no allies.
I also don't like Atheros in the deck since it actually doesn't work well with Bloodghast or Geralf's Messenger, since it is better for them to let it go to my hand.
I am also thinking of adding some more token generation to add a constant creature generation with either Bitterblossom and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad since it will give me creatures on slow turns.
The list I posted is EXTREMELY budget minus the lands, which aren't even that expensive either. Now, I will say I didn't build the deck with the purpose of being budget, it just ended up that way.
If you run 4x Zulaport Cutthroat in the list then 4x Kalastria Healer makes 8 Allies. That isn't a lot but its enough especially for the combo. Worst case scenario, you combo with 1 Healer and its your only Ally. What else would you have had in that slot? Tidehollow Sculler? Geralf's Messenger? Would that other card be better or worse. If its Tidehollow I say worse. If its Geralf's Messenger I'd say way better. That's why I chose Healer. If you have no Healers then it doesn't really matter if you consider that you wouldn't have had the other card you would have put in its slot either. But its only bad if you have 1 and it would have been better as something else. Now consider you have two Kalastria Healers and they are your only Allies. Is Messenger better or worse? Well...technically worse since Messenger represents up two 4 damage and two Healers is 4 damage AND 4 life. That means you have to have 1 Healer and 3 other Allies to match that. If any of those other Allies are other Healers then it just gets stupid because you trigger each Healer simultaneously. Its exponential
1 Healer w/ 0 Allies = 1 Trigger
2 Healers w/ 0 Allies = 4 Triggers...
4 Healers w/ 0 Allies = 16 triggers...
1 Healer w/ 1 Ally = 2 Triggers
2 Healers w/ 1 Ally = 6 Triggers...
2 Healers 2/ 2 Allies = 8 Triggers
Now remember, that's just them coming IN to the battlefield, that's counting ONLY Allies. Since your only other Ally is Cutthroat you are going to get more triggers off of creatures leaving the field too. The worst possible combination of Healer and Cutthroat is 2 triggers in which means you need 18 going out to kill the opponent at 20 life. Each Healer trigger you get is 1 less Cutthroat/Artist trigger you need.
Geralf's Messenger is the only other card that comes close to giving you that kind of output and the Healers give you exponential returns, something Messenger can't do. If I were going to add Messenger to the list though I would put him in over Squadron Hawk. If you are trying to combo, Messenger represents 6 damage by himself (w/ Artist/Cutthroat) which is better than all 4 Squadron Hawks. Pawn of Ulamog helps the Hawks but Messenger is still better. 4 Hawks = 4 Pawn triggers. 1 Messenger = 2 Pawn Triggers. Messenger + Artist + Pawn = 8 damage. 4 Hawks + Artist + Pawn = 8 damage. One requires 6 creatures and the other requires 3. The difference is that Messenger is more efficient without Pawn and just as efficient with.
Hawks are better in a situation with R.I.P. and Grafdigger because they give you a lot of ways to do damage in the air. If you add Mistvveil Plains to the mix then you get them out from underneath a Grafdigger's Cage (but not R.I.P.) to have a constant air presence literally pecking away at your opponent's life total.
Healer also helps against Grafdiggers cage because it makes the combo less necessary because you get direct damage just from dropping it. I'm also not a fan of Athreos. I used him for a while but he just didn't cut it. Did nothing more often than anything.
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Now I want to say-this archetype seems really good, even my budget and very far from tuned list seemed to do really well against the decks I have
tried it against. My list can be seen here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-08-15-Znf-budget-aristocrats/
I do have a question though, has anyone tried blue? It would not give TOO much for the maindeck, but I think would definitely help against things like twin.
Against Twin I would just pack more instant speed removal. Left enough mana up to through down a second spell in the Dispel the first. You can also just try and combo off in response to their combo since yours technically works faster. Or you can run something like Keening Apparition in the board too. It both contributes to the game plan and stops their combo.
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4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Blood Artist
3 Athreos, God of Passage
3 Viscera Seer
3 Bloodthrone Vampire
3 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Doomed Traveler
3 Blisterpod
3 Rally the Ancestors
20 lands to even things out at 60. tell me what yall think!
Maybe cut an athreos?
Waaaaay too many 2 drops. Inconsistent greend/white beginning source. You're obviously black, but which is your second primary, white or green? Get rid of the 1 drop that opposes that because blisterpod and doomed traveler should only be played to try to get early. It's not threatening enouhg late game.
I don't think that Tidehollow Sculler is a bad card but I don't think its exactly where your deck wants to be. Doomed Traveler and Blisterpod are such good cards I would maybe drop the 3 Tidehollows for 1 more each of Traveler, Pod, and Rally.
Tidehollow gets better the more sac outlets you have because you can use it to permanently get rid of a card in hand. With only 6 sac outlets I don't know that you can use that startegy as often as you might want to.
As always though, play test it and let your experience guide you.
Messenger is the only change I would make honestly. Athreos is cool but my experiences with him weren't great. Sometimes he does what you want but most of the time he doesn't. Other than Wall of Omens and Kalastria Healer, there aren't a lot of creatures that I was okay with my opponent putting in my hand.
After play testing it more I don't think I want Kalastria Healer in the deck. Its too cute. As strange as it sounds, one of my favorite cards in the this deck has always been Wall of Omens. It draws cards and slows down your opponents aggressive creatures for a few turns. As long as you have a sac outlet in the 'yard you can always Rally just for the card draw and extra blocker for a turn if you need to buy time. Omes is pretty good with Viscera Seer as well because you can Scry then Draw at certain stages of the game.
Evolutionary Leap does a lot of things this deck wants, like find more fuel for the fire. I don't know that I would want to run it in a deck with Rally because you could very easily bury your Rallys. Leap costs mana to activate and puts the new creature in your hand so its a fairly mana intensive operation. I think for that reason I'd want to keep the total cmc of my creatures fairly low.
I would need to play test with it. I think its good but at the same time it could just be too slow and mana intensive. It may be better for more of a value-midrange-toolbox kind of deck than what Aristocrats is. Its hard to evaluate because it has so much value but costs so much to get there.
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I see that, yeah. The main question I am asking myself is splashing green and white for Voice of Resurgence worth it? We all know its a broken card and demands to be dealt with when its hits.
If I was to drop some of the 2 drops, Should I add more 1 drops or add more 3 drops with 4 copies of Collected Company? And what 3 drops are would come in? Liliana, Heretical Healer., Mirran Crusader? both are pretty manna specific. personally my favorite would be Geralf's Messenger but that 3B is very rough in a 3 color deck unless we introduce creature mana fixing. other creatures like Teysa, Orzhov Scion and Varolz, the Scar-Striped are both intesting takes but they demand their own direction that could pull us away from perfect synergy with the deck.
I havent dug to terribly deep but in this thread but for more of the mana intensive decks has anyone thought about adding Birds of Paradise to their builds?
I think that it could be a very powerful tool for the Abzan decks to be that much faster. I like it in decks where we are using counters with Abzan Ascendancy. so you can have a 1/2 beat stick. It might help out the Evolutionary Leap budget decks.
Its never easy to build a 3-color mana base on a budget. You are really looking at Caves of Koilos and Llanowar Wastes on a budget. Just know that, even if the rest of your deck is awesome, you may lose as many games to your mana base as you do for any other number of reasons combined. I know the Abzan lists intrigue you the most but I would consider starting with a two color variant, either Orzhov or Golgari, and building the best version of that deck that you are able too and then branching out later. The biggest thing you have to ask yourself is, "Why do I want to be in three colors? What cards do I want?" That will help you figure out which 2-color combo to start with.
I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of Abzan Ascendency. Its too slow and ends up being a trap. It comes down and buffs your guys only for your guys to start getting outclassed anyway by Tasigur, Gurmag, Rhino, Tarmo, etc. Then you wasted an entire turn for a spell you could have spent casting Pawn of Ulamog which does basically the same thing but is a creature that can come back with Rally the Ancestors and triggers Blood Artist when it dies. Outside of Cartel Aristocrat and Geralf's Messenger, there aren't many creatures in this deck that can get aggressive very easily.
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that I can manage a tri color manabase with what I have..so does anyone have a good list for a BW aggro/midrange-ish combo list? I am not sure
that I want something that is all in on the combo so does anyone have a starting list that can still combo off relatively well but doesn't have as hard
a time against counterspells and grave hate? Thanks and I am currently working on making this deck as so far it has been very cheap, I also
would love to be able to start contributing to this thread. Thanks
I love Strangleroot Geist and i think he could be a force to be recon with in this deck. Undying aristocrats sounds like a blast. but at this point if we are going super aggro he will be a hard sell in a list that s mostly black and white.
Personally if someone wanted to slow the deck down to more control based possibly with JUND colors. you could have Falkenrath Aristocrat, and I would like to see some deck with my favorite card Vorapede! but that is even a greater stretch at 3G in the casting cost so very unlikely.
The standard abzan strategy is to run it more combo heavy or lower to the ground with low drops and finishing with a rally. Of them, I think that the combo is more reliable because of satyr wayfinder. It fixes a lot of mana problems for a 3 color deck. In relation to your deck, I would drop the 8 artist effects down. You don't really need that many. I think 10 is too many for 1 drops as they are just too weak in the late game. I would go with 4 seers and 4 bliserpods. Also, always run 4 rallys. Always. Especially if you do add satyr wayfinder.
As for Evolutionary Leap. I've used him quite a lot. Tried to use it as a pod and experimented with adding chord. Still experimenting actually more on that later, though. First, evolutionary leap. In my old abzan value list, Evolutionary Leap was amazing. I used 2 or three in a deck. It's really more of a 4-5 drop than 2 drop so you don't want it early and hence the 2 or 3 of. You will always prioritize something like voice, satyr wayfinder, or absolutely anything else on turn 2. On turn 3, you will want athreos, abzan ascendency, liliana, or a 2 drop and open mana for removal. It also works REALLY well with Dark Confidant. The more creatures you dig out of your deck, the higher chance you will draw land, making dark confidant even better.
Now, as for Chord, Evolutionary Leap, and morbid pod. meeeehhhhh.... Evolutionary leap, as stated is a 4-5 drop. Even with acceleration, It's not as efficient as pod. You don't get to choose what to get and it doesn't come into play. It really fits more as a 5th/6th value sac outlet for decks that dont want to run cartel aristocrat because they aren't agro focused. Still a great card though.
The "combo" is actually just satyr way finder and really the ancestors. Often times, you can get enough in the bin with chump blocking and satyr wayfinder. When you have enough artists and body replacers/persistent creatures.
If you want to be fancy, you can add return to the ranks or chord of calling. Sac half your creatures and use the rest to combine the rest back. It chord into a second artist or even an artist if one isn't in the bin
I suggest using proxies before committing. That said, my base land formula is:
2 of each pertinent shockland
+
Enough basics to cast every important spell
+
Ghost quarters as needed by your meta
+
All the fetches as the rest of your land.
Deck list (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/abzan-zombie-ranks/)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
it's a four card combo, but you don't have to asemble it a piece at a time. Just rally or return them all back at once.
Also, Anafenza with Tokens is FUUUUN.
I love it alongside the rally combo, feels consistent.
I don't like your list because it's going in different directions.
1) You have Blisterpod, seer and doomed traveler as 1 drops. This is usually for the more combo heavy decks. You said you want to have a more value based deck, There is little value to blisterpod and doomed traveler except as chump blockers and double artist triggers. So that's pretty much for the combo version, not value.
2) You have 4 aristocrats. Aristocrats is for an aggressive version, trying to get unblockable and deal as much damage as possible. Again, not a value version, but aggressive
3) You have full playsets of Cutthroat and artist. Why do you need that many? You never want to drop it on turn 2 because it's a removal magnet. You literally want any other 2 drop. Voice, cartel aristocrat, even two 1 drops are better than an artist card.
4) Only 2 return to the ranks? Why return over rally? I can't imagine you having enough creatures to make convoke work for you
On a value build, Liliana, Heretical healer is amazing. T1 seer, t2 voice, t3 liliana->flipped with killed voie-> return voice->kill voice again. You now have 2 4/4s. Every other turn, you get another.
Overall, I think abzan is the strongest setup with the combo version is the strongest abzan. As you stated though, it really isn't an aristocrats deck, but a combo deck. That's why I think we should just move from calling it aristocrats to a 'Morbid' archetype.
For a value deck, I'd go something like:
4x Viscera Seer
4x Blisterpod
4x Voice
2x Aristocrats
4x Cutthroat
3x Dark Confidant
3x Athreos
3x Liliana
3x Evolutinary leap
4x rally
Removal spells as needed
I've explained every card there except Bob. It's guarnateed card draw engine to help you get more bodies to chump block. Once Evolutionary leap is out, you can get creatures out of your deck, increasing your land ratio and minimizing the damage. Lots of value.
For agro:
4x young wolf
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Blisterpod
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Cutthroat
2x Athreos
4x Collected Company
4x Abzan Acendency
3x Return to the ranks
Every threat is a 2 drop or less for agro. Flood the board with lots of small creatures. coco and abzan ascendency. But I think there's a better BW build if you're going that route.
For combo:
4x Satyr wayfinder
4x Rally the ancestors
4x blisterpod
4x tucatounge Thallid
4x voice of ressurgence
blah
blah
This list should be the most obvious to build by now.
And my point in removing the artist is that you don't need 8. Really, you only need 1 and only when you're using your rally. everyone knows this deck and the artist is usually going to be the biggest removal bait. They don't care about your blisterpod or satyr wayfinder. They care about your artist. So you don't cast it until you can cast your rally the ancestors and you can get the sac triggers on the stack regardless of whether or not they kil the artist. hence, you don't need 8 copies.
That deck is an aristocrats deck so yes, you could discuss it here
Also, his list seems relatively decent-I would definitely consider grim haruspex as an addition to that list. He talks about using coco to make sure
that he doesn't run out of steam but I think the haruspex could work too-just remember to sacrifice it before attempting the infinite combo so you don't mill youself out.