The big difference between Lotleth Troll and the Snake is, that I can ditch anything to the Snake. This is usually better in a race scenario (vs Combo e.g.) as in setting up different lines (e.g. ditching Loams, Lingering Souls, Conflagrate and co). I noticed it in the early tests, that the Snake is just better at doing exactly this. Sure, if you go a more creature heavy approach than Lotleth Troll will be way better (cause it is simply a better card if you planning on using a lot of creatures). However, since I do not want to screw to much with the creature match-ups (cause it makes the Humans, Spirits and co match-up worse), I ditched this approach early.
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly aware that the Snake sucks against Midrange and Control, since they HAVE good removal against it (as in "Destroy/Exile target creature), but having 4 "dead" cards in these match-ups is fine with me, I think they are good match-ups already so I accept this.
However, what the Snake DOES is, it gives the deck another 3 turn clock, which only Infestation could do before and THIS is the crucial point. Suddenly I do not have to mull down just to have a somewhat reasonable shot at beating Combo, I can "race" them (if they have a slower start).
The thing with Driven//Despair is, I would want to have the discard effect on turn 3, cause later it will be useless more often than not. Furthermore, it has to be more than 1 card (cause a one card discard of his choice will never win you the game). This means, that I would want to run the playset Driven//Despair to get it reliable on turn 3 (via digging/having it in hand) and also a playset of Lingering Souls, to have more ways to generate 2+ bodies on turn three, which can attack (otherwise it is only Infestation or Looting into double ditch Bloodghast (or dredging into them) into hardcast Bloodghast). The chances for his are so darn slim, it requires such a specific combination of cards to get 2+ creatures ready to attack on turn 3 AND Despair that I never found myself in that position (roughly 30 games with the Despair version). Sure, if we are satisfied with a turn 4 Despair, than the whole set-up gets more attractive, but speaking out of experience (as a mainly combo player), turn 4 interaction, even if it is mass discard, is usually not enough to turn the tide around. Storm, Infect, Titanshift, KCI, Devoted CoCo (which is a nightmare to play against, especially the combo version) nor Scaled Affinity do really care about this.
Maybe I just never got it (which with 30 games is rather unlikely) and just got unlucky, but it indicates at least to me, that Despair, as much as I love the design of the card, is not enough to get a reasonable shot at beating combo. Hence the dedicated SB cards, cause I know, that game 1 we will always lose as long as RNG is not on our side.
Cause lets be real, the deck was never build to have a decent combo match-up, it was build to absolutely crush any form of creature combat deck, from fast aggro decks up to the big boys in Eldrazies. That Infestation and Loam are also bonkers vs Control was a nice side effect, but not the "intention" to say it this way. Basically, I can not see any reasonable way to get a decent shot against Combo game 1, so I rather not make my MD worse against 70+% of the field, just to shore up the remaining ~30%. My reasonable way is: Try to race (even if it will not work that often) and the Snake does this job good enough (the testing I have been doing so far suggests this), that in combination with the anti combo SB cards I can turn an atrocious match-up into decent-ish which gives me a good enough shot to win game 2 & 3.
Maybe I'm wrong, I do not know it (not getting that many games in as I would want to), maybe we are both wrong and maybe a hybrid version would work the best, I simply do not know it.
But what I know is, that Snake is bonkers so far (played vs Spirits, Humans, UR Phoenix and Dredge, the Snake ate a lot of fliers (though, those are basically the dream match-ups for it)).
Also your example (regarding Despair) is nice, but in theory, Angel's Grace does a better job
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The reason why I'm playing 4 Snakes atm is: I need to draw the card to know, if it is good or not. So if I get the feeling, that maybe only three or two copies might be overall better, than I will trim them down, but for the time being I actually need to play the Playset to get enough "data" on that card. This is btw. a big mistake many people are doing when testing with new cards, they just use them as one or two off and never draw it, so they cannot really assess, if it is a good inclusion or not. Hence, I would advise you either to go the full playset and just run a couple of games with them (just to get a feeling) or stick with your plan for the time being.
Regarding Storm, it is true, that Despair is quite good (or rather decent-ish), if you can connect with 3+ creatures on turn 4 with it, I'm just used to getting killed on turn 3 or killing him on turn 5 cause I was able to deal with the creatures and he was not able to kill me without them. So, screwed perception most likely ^^
Also, the notion for Grace was partly a joke, though, I used to play that card in different decks to have a "ups, I win" button vs Scapeshift (old RUG one) and ADN (which ran rampant back in the days here).
Regarding Journey, when I played the deck back in 2016 for a longer timer period (couple hundreds of games) I never really felt the need for that card and it stranded in my hand awkwardly often. However, you are correct that it might be better than Sun and Moon in the SB, since it both protects our own graveyard, as deals with pesky cards in the opponents graveyard. I need get some testing in vs KCI, Storm and Phoenix and see, if Rule of Law (+ Stony for KCI) is enough here. Note: Rule of Law is basically a hard lock for the Pheonix decks, since it slows the deck so hard down, that even a Raging Goblin can win the game, if you can handle the first onslaught. Phoenix is also the main reason, why I also want Snake, it deals with those darn Drakes really well.
Will get 5 Rounds in tomorrow (could even be 6), so will report either tomorrow night, or Friday morning. And I won't sugarcoat anything about the Snake
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Ok, so I tried the snake and am torn between really liking it and really disliking it.
In the end I compromised with the idea that Conflagrate can be used to replace the very aggressive play patterns of snake and depend on dredging to get me more of them. Despair is a backup plan should I brick (in the end, I think it was a big mistake on my part to remove Dryad Arbor since it provided so much consistency towards the Despair plan, which is apparently incredibly consistent in winning midrange matchups - without it we have surprising difficulty). Therefore, I'm currently on the following list (perhaps I need the fourth Squee, but I don't have access to it in paper for the time being):
My reasoning for cutting Axes from the main is that Pharaohs+Brownscales should deal well with aggressive strategies and 4x Confalgrate should be enough to kill scooze. If I'm proven wrong, I'll reinstate them. (I'm mostly suspicious of the ability of Brownscale to gain large enough amounts of life to keep up with their attacks as Pharaoh deals with creatures.)
P.S. My previous posts in this thread are deleted with the EU stuff.
My reasoning for cutting Axes from the main is that Pharaohs+Brownscales should deal well with aggressive strategies and 4x Confalgrate should be enough to kill scooze. If I'm proven wrong, I'll reinstate them. (I'm mostly suspicious of the ability of Brownscale to gain large enough amounts of life to keep up with their attacks as Pharaoh deals with creatures.)
Keep in mind the scooze can eat the Conflagrate before you cast it... That's why I don't like to have Conflagrate as my only answer.
On a side note, I just came back to my old list which was still using Smallpox. To me, it seems better in my meta which has a lot of Tron, Storm, and other uninteractive Combo decks where it can take out lands. How does Driven // Despair help in these combo matchups?
There are a lot of ways to work around scooze with a conflagrate using timing restrictions, especially with the fourth copy (the only scenario where they can eat it is if we dredge into it on the draw step and they have open green mana for extra copies we potentially find).
Pox sure is good against storm, but I don't find it very useful for other matchups. For example, I don't think turn 2 symmetric land destruction hurts tron badly enough to warrant taking a turn off (otherwise GQ would be much better in the matchup).
Despair is stellar against tron (including pushing the points of last damage through a wurmcoil) but needs an explosive start to deal with storm (despair + 2 Axes have previously been enough for me to have a very good record in the matchup, but if I don't know what's the opponent on, this often becomes the sideboard plan). It's also really good against Vanifar decks, if that counts for anything.
If the London mulligan stays in modern, I can potentially see pox getting an upgrade due to an increased number of mulls though.
I tried three copies (couldn't find enough things to cut and wasn't in the mood of re-examining all card choices) and I think it provides an amazingly good rate of finding Infestation. The only noticeable drawback was that it occasionally exiled a Tec Edge vs Control (which is our best card against them) and the basic Forest (without which we need to rely on Squee a lot vs moon decks - which is perfectly fine in my experience).
What do you think about Dreadhorde Invasion and Blast Zone? I feel like Dreadhorde Invasion is just too slow for modern but maybe we could move the deck from driven // despair to a more control-style with infestation and invasion as late-game win cons. Blast Zone seems like an interesting 1-of for the mainboard/sideboard depending on your local meta.
Blast Zone is reasonably impressive as a midrange strategy. It's not the strong boardswipe it appears to be (too much mana), but once you establish a topdeck war it often helps lock people out of their outs. To this end, it's even better with Despair, since the latter forces said topdeck war. I have actually replaced Pharaohs (which aren't very good against the multitude of oversized creatures we're nowadays hit with) with two copies of the land maindeck; this could be a mistake but has left me reasonably pleased, if nothing else because it reaches a critical land count for Loam without diluting the amount of interaction the deck can grind with.
Note #1: I badly want to maindeck a Flame Jab, but it feels overkill with 4 Conflags and 2 Zones to handle planeswalkers (although I may not have enough red to justify the 4th Conflag, but I'm still testing this).
Note #2: Brownscales and the Bosk are my flexslots. I keep changing them to random things; mostly Pharaohs, additional GQ, sometimes even playing Sylvan Scrying as a way to tutor GQ/Bojuka Bog/Zone on demand (although it's too slow to call it a plan).
The best play pattern in my experience so far with Zone is to find some time in the first 3 turns to deploy it, preferably on turn 3 (when you can also proceed to set it to 2 counters if low on gas). Thinking that you can get it back on demand with Loam later is a huge punt, because you won't have enough mana to do all the things you want to do.
Call the Bloodline is many times more powerful than Invasion (in a Loam+Squee deck that wants to actively discard things) and even that ended being a bit too slow (although it's fine in a bit slower metas). In the end, the things to ask for the grindy repeatable token generation cards are:
a) Can they help discard cards turn 2?
b) Are they much better than flashing back Lingering Souls? (because the latter will be dredged into fairly consistently)
c) Do they put enough power on the board quickly enough?
Bloodline fails only on the last point, whereas Invasion fails all 3 (!) .
Currently, the Driven//Despair package feels more like a necessary evil; I can't seem to get enough unfair things going on without it (modern is a competition at whose deck is more unfair at this point) but its effectiveness is high variance and sometimes I need two to win the game (which is why I maintain the 3rd copy).
On the other hand, Ironworks is no more, storm sees less play, creature decks are prevalent and Zone makes us want to increase our land count (it's a land) so I think it's a good time to try to find Pox version of the deck that works.
May I ask why you play murmuring bosk over a 4th copy of bloodstained mire (and a white shockland)? Bosk seems like a painful land to include, since our manabase already damages us quite a bit. It also doesn't come into play untapped, which I imagine could be very awkward in some scenarios.
Hi Danr,
playing Bosk is a convoluted decision that I'm almost convinced is correct if we want to maindeck white mana at all (which is very debatable but gives me peace of mind). Please bear with me while I try to explain my reasoning.
First of all, I want to point out that this archetype is very color intensive on its curve, because in a vacuum we want to eventually achieve 1 black, 1 green and 2 red mana in that order of priority (black without green can win the game with souls and despair but the opposite is rarely true because Loam is too slow to get the deck going by itself). Things like bloodmoon and LD may make us prioritize basics and the second green mana for insurance, but let's leave this aside for the moment, because in such matchups we're effectively a different deck.
Everything seems fine with this curve until you realize that sometimes (I'd guess 30% of the time, but this is an empirical estimate that could deviate by as much as 10%) this incredibly confounding archetype somehow wants to curve with: red for looting, second red for Conflag to clear the board, and then green to Loam into black or black if green is in hand.
Things are further complicated because it's imperative to run 3 colorless LDs (preferably the 3rd being tec-edge) that shave off from the number of colored slots.
In the end we only have room only for only 7-8 fetches without compromising the "mill my own useful lands" and "run out of colored sources I'd need in the lategame" issues.
The things in the spoiler tag mean that, often, we'll have a random land and a fetch to fix all our colors without the help of loam yet. If we rely on Loam for color fixing we're usually dead unless the opponent stumbles, which is happening with increasing rarity as the powerlevel of decks increases.
The question then becomes; how do we support white mana in addition to the previous insane and unpredictable requirements? Short answer; we can't. If we grab a white+something else shock, odds are that we'll get very badly color-screwed, since we won't get the needed colors on time. Furthermore, we don't really have the space to accommodate a white-producing land that 99% of the time becomes an one-colored (e..g green) shock. If we wanted to do that, we'd need to play fastlands to fix the number of colored sources. But this means that we need to cut basic mountains, which leaves us unable to get a shockless turn 4 Conflagrate.
To address this problem, the question we must ask is "what do we need white mana for?"
The answer is very specific: we need them in slower matchups or when our starting hand lacks sufficient card advantage. The most characteristic example to have in mind is a hand with [Infestation or Looting]+Souls but no Squee/dredge (or dredge that wiffs on finding Loam/squee) + Wooded Foothills + Mountain. These hands are close to unkeepable without white mana, but if we have access to white then perhaps we can get enough grinding presence with 4 soul tokens (instead of 2).
In these kinds of hands, developing our colors correctly so that we can cast a topdecked infestation or loam can usually only be done by grabbing a non-white dual. To solve this conundrum, I think the only solution is to play a tri-colored land, whose first two colors do what the land's supposed to do while providing the needed white mana on top of that. This prevents us from running a useless land that we'll never want to grab and, even more importantly, can substitute the fetch slot without reducing the critical number of black and green sources we run.
An additional thing to consider when evaluating Bosk is whendo we want to grab it. The answer is rather simple honestly: in the early turns when we have no meaningful play; if we have some card (e.g. looting) that is actually meaningful to cast (i.e. it grinds value) then we can just put Souls in the graveyard and proceed with the value play. For example, let's return to our example of turn 2 Infestation into turn 3 hardcast souls without other value available; in this case, we don't have a turn 1 play, which allows us to fetch a tapped land.
The tapped clause is only a real drawback if want to grab a fetch with loam and hardcast souls exactly on turn 5 while having spent turn for loam + conflagrate/despair. I'd argue that if one arrived at such a board state though, Souls should have been discarded in prior turns to get more value.
Synopsis of the last spoiler tag: a triple land is necessary to satisfy our color needs but untapped white is not important.
As a final remark, Bosk's green is painless and this leads to taking at most 2 damage off it.
Thanks for the informative reply. I'm trying to modify my manabase in order to minimise the amount of damage I am doing to myself. Currently, it looks like this:
Do you have any advice for modifications I can make? I'm currently thinking of swapping the Sacred Foundry for a Murmuring Bosk and then swapping 1 Bloodstained Mire and the Windswept Heath for an additional basic + a cycle dual land (i haven't worked out which one I want yet). I'm also gonna take out 1-2 cards from the non-lands and try out Blast Zone.
If I really had to give some advice (although it feels fine):
a) Put a 3rd basic mountain. There are some very rare scenarios where, after fetching a mountain (e.g. for looting) and a non-red source we're forced to fetch a red to Conflagrate turn 3 and then want to play loam+shockless conflagrate turn 4.
b) Cut a Bojuka Bog because we can't find it consistently enough to do anything in the faster matchups. (Note: if you do, it's imperative to play TecEdge as the third LD as a control hozer). In my mind, this is the card that competes with Murmuring Bosk.
c) Play a couple of fastlands; they can help save life.
I feel very weakly for all these points though, because they don't impact the deck's winrate considerably.
P.S. Horizons brings a lot of cool things to the table, so I'm hoping for something this archetype can use (the canopy lands are not very good for it).
It passes 2 of the three points I mentioned before: a lot of power at once quickly enough and is better than soul flashback. However, it doesn't help discard dredgers and souls and requires too many lands to function (without Loam it needs 5 lands by turn 2-3 to function in any meaningful manner - probably more, and this dilutes the deck too much).
Organizing the relevant spoilers up to now and my opinion:
- Ayula's Influence : There's no way to curve into this in meaningful manner.
- Nether Spirit : A nice supplement to Ghasts. We definitely want one - possibly two, although it could require cutting Brownscales (funnily, Pharaoh works not horribly with it). The nice part is that it's good when the rest of the deck fizzle (whereas it's bad when it wins, so it's not a win-more card).
- Ruination Rioter : Seems very interesting due to the ability to hit face. I'm thinking of a line of turn 2 Conflagrate for 4, dredge and play this on turn 3, dredge loam, attack (in that order), get 3 lands and Conflag for 4 (splitting 2 damage to it if it wasn't blocked) for a total of something like 4 (1st conflag)+4 (2nd conflag plus attack should just do 2 of the damage in a different way) + at least 4 lands in yard = at least 12 dmg total. Given the ability of non-lands we run to generally push even more damage through with this sequence, I think this play is fast enough to consider 2-3 copies but it needs some testing to say for sure.
- 1x Nether Spirit as Bloodghast no. 5 is absolutely amazing. I started with 2, but the second one was problematic often enough to warrant a cut (the other creatures dredge).
- Ruination Rioter doesn't perform very well, because it almost always hits its floor and not its ceiling and that required all my resources without being able to win the game; I couldn't even goldfish with him reliably, so I think he's a cut.
- We usually can't delve, because the deck is incredibly dense in graveyard value. We have, like, 4 infestations that we don't mind delving (and even this may change). Of the two threats I'm more interested in Hogaak since the flier doesn't pass the "am I happy to dredge it or does it win the game on its own without caring about removal" barrier.
- Shenanigans could be at most a single copy, because Grudge costs less, is an immediate answer to bridge, can kill Latice by floating mana and isn't card disadvantrage vs Relic. Actually, Force of Vigor is by far the more interesting card, since it's so great in helping us fight graveyard hate (I'd see myself sideboarding 2-3).
- The cycling lands compete directly with white + Hall of Heliod's Generosity slots. If you want to go with white, Bosk is still the best option, since the Hall promotes a play pattern that doesn't mind the ETB tapped effect (do the hall on your upkeep). Unfortunately, waiting three turns to attack (1 to play a white land, 1 to play hall and 1 to get infestation) doesn't appeal to me; we can shorten it by one turn by prioritizing fetching Bosk early on or playing a hall from hand, but I'd much rather Loot or Conflag for a lot and get pressure and disruption going early on than durdle and die.
On the other hand, the cycling lands are simply amazing. Let me rephrase that: they're bonkers. Dredge Imp -> discard it -> dredge it again (or simply dredge another thing) in a single turn nets us enough resources that we shouldn't care about additional copies of infestation.
Hi Guys,
Since MTG salvation is shutting down soon, what do u guys think about me creating a Reddit community page so we can continue discussions about the deck?
The particular sub does not personally inspire me that much to have a focused discussion, since I'm not interested in assault loam strategies at all (and I imagine assault loam players would also not be very interested in Squeeflagrate, since the two are very different to each other). As a (hopefully temporary) solution, I think I would be happy to discuss things in a dedicated sub. (I'd be happy to help create a primer @Danr2000 - although I haven't posted before my reddit handle is also maniospas if you want to contact me there).
Hi guys
I've never posted on this site, but have been following this thread for a long time (about 2015), and played many of the builds posted, and other versions aswell. Thx to maniospas and danr2000 for their dedication and thorough analyzes.
I would like to participate more in the discussions, and would support danr2000 idea of a reddit page. Furthermore I agree with maniospas about the general modern loam forums. They don't really discuss this exact deck and take on loam.
Well, enough from me. I just hope this thread can continue.
Hi guys
I've never posted on this site, but have been following this thread for a long time (about 2015), and played many of the builds posted, and other versions aswell. Thx to maniospas and danr2000 for their dedication and thorough analyzes.
I would like to participate more in the discussions, and would support danr2000 idea of a reddit page. Furthermore I agree with maniospas about the general modern loam forums. They don't really discuss this exact deck and take on loam.
Well, enough from me. I just hope this thread can continue.
Wow, the fact you've been here so long is awesome! It'd be great to see you post a bit more often in the future .
- Any recommendations on how to make the page look nicer will be greatly appreciated, since i'm not very good at aesthetics lmao.
- I've finished uni for the summer, so that means ill have loads of time to work on making the forum as good as I can.
- I was thinking about eventually including a stock list, a detailed primer, an updated sideboard guide, links to Levy's original Zombie Loam articles and obviously, a link to the archived mtg salvation forum.
I've DM'ed you maniospas, so just send me a message and ill mod you
Finally, this is the first time I have managed a forum like this, so please let me know what you guys think I should include/change.
I'm sorry to chime in, but there is already /r/ModernLoam/ and of course /r/ModernMagic/
The reason I bring this up is that usually is better to group up instead of splitting the community. Cheers!
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The big difference between Lotleth Troll and the Snake is, that I can ditch anything to the Snake. This is usually better in a race scenario (vs Combo e.g.) as in setting up different lines (e.g. ditching Loams, Lingering Souls, Conflagrate and co). I noticed it in the early tests, that the Snake is just better at doing exactly this. Sure, if you go a more creature heavy approach than Lotleth Troll will be way better (cause it is simply a better card if you planning on using a lot of creatures). However, since I do not want to screw to much with the creature match-ups (cause it makes the Humans, Spirits and co match-up worse), I ditched this approach early.
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly aware that the Snake sucks against Midrange and Control, since they HAVE good removal against it (as in "Destroy/Exile target creature), but having 4 "dead" cards in these match-ups is fine with me, I think they are good match-ups already so I accept this.
However, what the Snake DOES is, it gives the deck another 3 turn clock, which only Infestation could do before and THIS is the crucial point. Suddenly I do not have to mull down just to have a somewhat reasonable shot at beating Combo, I can "race" them (if they have a slower start).
The thing with Driven//Despair is, I would want to have the discard effect on turn 3, cause later it will be useless more often than not. Furthermore, it has to be more than 1 card (cause a one card discard of his choice will never win you the game). This means, that I would want to run the playset Driven//Despair to get it reliable on turn 3 (via digging/having it in hand) and also a playset of Lingering Souls, to have more ways to generate 2+ bodies on turn three, which can attack (otherwise it is only Infestation or Looting into double ditch Bloodghast (or dredging into them) into hardcast Bloodghast). The chances for his are so darn slim, it requires such a specific combination of cards to get 2+ creatures ready to attack on turn 3 AND Despair that I never found myself in that position (roughly 30 games with the Despair version). Sure, if we are satisfied with a turn 4 Despair, than the whole set-up gets more attractive, but speaking out of experience (as a mainly combo player), turn 4 interaction, even if it is mass discard, is usually not enough to turn the tide around. Storm, Infect, Titanshift, KCI, Devoted CoCo (which is a nightmare to play against, especially the combo version) nor Scaled Affinity do really care about this.
Maybe I just never got it (which with 30 games is rather unlikely) and just got unlucky, but it indicates at least to me, that Despair, as much as I love the design of the card, is not enough to get a reasonable shot at beating combo. Hence the dedicated SB cards, cause I know, that game 1 we will always lose as long as RNG is not on our side.
Cause lets be real, the deck was never build to have a decent combo match-up, it was build to absolutely crush any form of creature combat deck, from fast aggro decks up to the big boys in Eldrazies. That Infestation and Loam are also bonkers vs Control was a nice side effect, but not the "intention" to say it this way. Basically, I can not see any reasonable way to get a decent shot against Combo game 1, so I rather not make my MD worse against 70+% of the field, just to shore up the remaining ~30%. My reasonable way is: Try to race (even if it will not work that often) and the Snake does this job good enough (the testing I have been doing so far suggests this), that in combination with the anti combo SB cards I can turn an atrocious match-up into decent-ish which gives me a good enough shot to win game 2 & 3.
Maybe I'm wrong, I do not know it (not getting that many games in as I would want to), maybe we are both wrong and maybe a hybrid version would work the best, I simply do not know it.
But what I know is, that Snake is bonkers so far (played vs Spirits, Humans, UR Phoenix and Dredge, the Snake ate a lot of fliers (though, those are basically the dream match-ups for it)).
Also your example (regarding Despair) is nice, but in theory, Angel's Grace does a better job
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Regarding Storm, it is true, that Despair is quite good (or rather decent-ish), if you can connect with 3+ creatures on turn 4 with it, I'm just used to getting killed on turn 3 or killing him on turn 5 cause I was able to deal with the creatures and he was not able to kill me without them. So, screwed perception most likely ^^
Also, the notion for Grace was partly a joke, though, I used to play that card in different decks to have a "ups, I win" button vs Scapeshift (old RUG one) and ADN (which ran rampant back in the days here).
Regarding Journey, when I played the deck back in 2016 for a longer timer period (couple hundreds of games) I never really felt the need for that card and it stranded in my hand awkwardly often. However, you are correct that it might be better than Sun and Moon in the SB, since it both protects our own graveyard, as deals with pesky cards in the opponents graveyard. I need get some testing in vs KCI, Storm and Phoenix and see, if Rule of Law (+ Stony for KCI) is enough here. Note: Rule of Law is basically a hard lock for the Pheonix decks, since it slows the deck so hard down, that even a Raging Goblin can win the game, if you can handle the first onslaught. Phoenix is also the main reason, why I also want Snake, it deals with those darn Drakes really well.
Will get 5 Rounds in tomorrow (could even be 6), so will report either tomorrow night, or Friday morning. And I won't sugarcoat anything about the Snake
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Does anyone have an updated zombie loam deck list? I haven't been able to play magic in a while so my list (below) is probably a little outdated.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bloodghast
1 Golgari Brownscale
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Spells (21)
3 Conflagrate
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
4 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Mausoleum Secrets
4 Zombie Infestation
Lands (22)
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Golgari Brownscale
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Memory's Journey
1 Heaven // Earth
1 Lightning Axe
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
In the end I compromised with the idea that Conflagrate can be used to replace the very aggressive play patterns of snake and depend on dredging to get me more of them. Despair is a backup plan should I brick (in the end, I think it was a big mistake on my part to remove Dryad Arbor since it provided so much consistency towards the Despair plan, which is apparently incredibly consistent in winning midrange matchups - without it we have surprising difficulty). Therefore, I'm currently on the following list (perhaps I need the fourth Squee, but I don't have access to it in paper for the time being):
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Golgari Brownscale
1 Dryad Arbor
Enchantments (4)
4 Zombie Infestation
Spells (19)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Conflagrate
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
1 Flame Jab
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Canyon Slough
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Memory's Journey
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
3 Lightning Axe
1 Scattered Groves
My reasoning for cutting Axes from the main is that Pharaohs+Brownscales should deal well with aggressive strategies and 4x Confalgrate should be enough to kill scooze. If I'm proven wrong, I'll reinstate them. (I'm mostly suspicious of the ability of Brownscale to gain large enough amounts of life to keep up with their attacks as Pharaoh deals with creatures.)
P.S. My previous posts in this thread are deleted with the EU stuff.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
On a side note, I just came back to my old list which was still using Smallpox. To me, it seems better in my meta which has a lot of Tron, Storm, and other uninteractive Combo decks where it can take out lands. How does Driven // Despair help in these combo matchups?
Pox sure is good against storm, but I don't find it very useful for other matchups. For example, I don't think turn 2 symmetric land destruction hurts tron badly enough to warrant taking a turn off (otherwise GQ would be much better in the matchup).
Despair is stellar against tron (including pushing the points of last damage through a wurmcoil) but needs an explosive start to deal with storm (despair + 2 Axes have previously been enough for me to have a very good record in the matchup, but if I don't know what's the opponent on, this often becomes the sideboard plan). It's also really good against Vanifar decks, if that counts for anything.
If the London mulligan stays in modern, I can potentially see pox getting an upgrade due to an increased number of mulls though.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
I tried three copies (couldn't find enough things to cut and wasn't in the mood of re-examining all card choices) and I think it provides an amazingly good rate of finding Infestation. The only noticeable drawback was that it occasionally exiled a Tec Edge vs Control (which is our best card against them) and the basic Forest (without which we need to rely on Squee a lot vs moon decks - which is perfectly fine in my experience).
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
What do you think about Dreadhorde Invasion and Blast Zone? I feel like Dreadhorde Invasion is just too slow for modern but maybe we could move the deck from driven // despair to a more control-style with infestation and invasion as late-game win cons. Blast Zone seems like an interesting 1-of for the mainboard/sideboard depending on your local meta.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
Note #1: I badly want to maindeck a Flame Jab, but it feels overkill with 4 Conflags and 2 Zones to handle planeswalkers (although I may not have enough red to justify the 4th Conflag, but I'm still testing this).
Note #2: Brownscales and the Bosk are my flexslots. I keep changing them to random things; mostly Pharaohs, additional GQ, sometimes even playing Sylvan Scrying as a way to tutor GQ/Bojuka Bog/Zone on demand (although it's too slow to call it a plan).
3 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Golgari Brownscale
Enchantments (4)
4 Zombie Infestation
Lands (25)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Stomping Ground
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Blast Zone
1 Canyon Slough
4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
4 Conflagrate
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
3 Memory's Journey
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Nature's Claim
2 Lightning Axe
1 Darkblast
1 Heaven // Earth
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scattered Groves
The best play pattern in my experience so far with Zone is to find some time in the first 3 turns to deploy it, preferably on turn 3 (when you can also proceed to set it to 2 counters if low on gas). Thinking that you can get it back on demand with Loam later is a huge punt, because you won't have enough mana to do all the things you want to do.
Call the Bloodline is many times more powerful than Invasion (in a Loam+Squee deck that wants to actively discard things) and even that ended being a bit too slow (although it's fine in a bit slower metas). In the end, the things to ask for the grindy repeatable token generation cards are:
a) Can they help discard cards turn 2?
b) Are they much better than flashing back Lingering Souls? (because the latter will be dredged into fairly consistently)
c) Do they put enough power on the board quickly enough?
Bloodline fails only on the last point, whereas Invasion fails all 3 (!) .
Currently, the Driven//Despair package feels more like a necessary evil; I can't seem to get enough unfair things going on without it (modern is a competition at whose deck is more unfair at this point) but its effectiveness is high variance and sometimes I need two to win the game (which is why I maintain the 3rd copy).
On the other hand, Ironworks is no more, storm sees less play, creature decks are prevalent and Zone makes us want to increase our land count (it's a land) so I think it's a good time to try to find Pox version of the deck that works.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
May I ask why you play murmuring bosk over a 4th copy of bloodstained mire (and a white shockland)? Bosk seems like a painful land to include, since our manabase already damages us quite a bit. It also doesn't come into play untapped, which I imagine could be very awkward in some scenarios.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
playing Bosk is a convoluted decision that I'm almost convinced is correct if we want to maindeck white mana at all (which is very debatable but gives me peace of mind). Please bear with me while I try to explain my reasoning.
Everything seems fine with this curve until you realize that sometimes (I'd guess 30% of the time, but this is an empirical estimate that could deviate by as much as 10%) this incredibly confounding archetype somehow wants to curve with: red for looting, second red for Conflag to clear the board, and then green to Loam into black or black if green is in hand.
Things are further complicated because it's imperative to run 3 colorless LDs (preferably the 3rd being tec-edge) that shave off from the number of colored slots.
In the end we only have room only for only 7-8 fetches without compromising the "mill my own useful lands" and "run out of colored sources I'd need in the lategame" issues.
The things in the spoiler tag mean that, often, we'll have a random land and a fetch to fix all our colors without the help of loam yet. If we rely on Loam for color fixing we're usually dead unless the opponent stumbles, which is happening with increasing rarity as the powerlevel of decks increases.
To address this problem, the question we must ask is "what do we need white mana for?"
The answer is very specific: we need them in slower matchups or when our starting hand lacks sufficient card advantage. The most characteristic example to have in mind is a hand with [Infestation or Looting]+Souls but no Squee/dredge (or dredge that wiffs on finding Loam/squee) + Wooded Foothills + Mountain. These hands are close to unkeepable without white mana, but if we have access to white then perhaps we can get enough grinding presence with 4 soul tokens (instead of 2).
In these kinds of hands, developing our colors correctly so that we can cast a topdecked infestation or loam can usually only be done by grabbing a non-white dual. To solve this conundrum, I think the only solution is to play a tri-colored land, whose first two colors do what the land's supposed to do while providing the needed white mana on top of that. This prevents us from running a useless land that we'll never want to grab and, even more importantly, can substitute the fetch slot without reducing the critical number of black and green sources we run.
An additional thing to consider when evaluating Bosk is whendo we want to grab it. The answer is rather simple honestly: in the early turns when we have no meaningful play; if we have some card (e.g. looting) that is actually meaningful to cast (i.e. it grinds value) then we can just put Souls in the graveyard and proceed with the value play. For example, let's return to our example of turn 2 Infestation into turn 3 hardcast souls without other value available; in this case, we don't have a turn 1 play, which allows us to fetch a tapped land.
The tapped clause is only a real drawback if want to grab a fetch with loam and hardcast souls exactly on turn 5 while having spent turn for loam + conflagrate/despair. I'd argue that if one arrived at such a board state though, Souls should have been discarded in prior turns to get more value.
Synopsis of the last spoiler tag: a triple land is necessary to satisfy our color needs but untapped white is not important.
As a final remark, Bosk's green is painless and this leads to taking at most 2 damage off it.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Do you have any advice for modifications I can make? I'm currently thinking of swapping the Sacred Foundry for a Murmuring Bosk and then swapping 1 Bloodstained Mire and the Windswept Heath for an additional basic + a cycle dual land (i haven't worked out which one I want yet). I'm also gonna take out 1-2 cards from the non-lands and try out Blast Zone.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
a) Put a 3rd basic mountain. There are some very rare scenarios where, after fetching a mountain (e.g. for looting) and a non-red source we're forced to fetch a red to Conflagrate turn 3 and then want to play loam+shockless conflagrate turn 4.
b) Cut a Bojuka Bog because we can't find it consistently enough to do anything in the faster matchups. (Note: if you do, it's imperative to play TecEdge as the third LD as a control hozer). In my mind, this is the card that competes with Murmuring Bosk.
c) Play a couple of fastlands; they can help save life.
I feel very weakly for all these points though, because they don't impact the deck's winrate considerably.
P.S. Horizons brings a lot of cool things to the table, so I'm hoping for something this archetype can use (the canopy lands are not very good for it).
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
It passes 2 of the three points I mentioned before: a lot of power at once quickly enough and is better than soul flashback. However, it doesn't help discard dredgers and souls and requires too many lands to function (without Loam it needs 5 lands by turn 2-3 to function in any meaningful manner - probably more, and this dilutes the deck too much).
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
- Ayula's Influence : There's no way to curve into this in meaningful manner.
- Nether Spirit : A nice supplement to Ghasts. We definitely want one - possibly two, although it could require cutting Brownscales (funnily, Pharaoh works not horribly with it). The nice part is that it's good when the rest of the deck fizzle (whereas it's bad when it wins, so it's not a win-more card).
- Ruination Rioter : Seems very interesting due to the ability to hit face. I'm thinking of a line of turn 2 Conflagrate for 4, dredge and play this on turn 3, dredge loam, attack (in that order), get 3 lands and Conflag for 4 (splitting 2 damage to it if it wasn't blocked) for a total of something like 4 (1st conflag)+4 (2nd conflag plus attack should just do 2 of the damage in a different way) + at least 4 lands in yard = at least 12 dmg total. Given the ability of non-lands we run to generally push even more damage through with this sequence, I think this play is fast enough to consider 2-3 copies but it needs some testing to say for sure.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
https://twitter.com/StarCityGames/status/1134139822837305345
https://www.twitch.tv/scgtour
There are definitely a few interesting modern horizons cards that could work in the deck.
Nether Spirit and maybe Ruination Rioter, as mentioned by maniospas above.
Hall of Heliod's Generosity - An interesting way to get a dredged zombie infestation into our hand. We are already splashing white to hardcast lingering souls.
Tranquil Thicket/Forgotten Cave/Barren Moor - An easy way to dredge for a second time in 1 turn.
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis - Another possible win-con in the deck?
Shenanigans - Is this better than nature's claim/ancient grudge?
Ore-Scale Guardian - A 4/4 flying haste for RR seems like something we should consider.
What do you guys think?
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
- 1x Nether Spirit as Bloodghast no. 5 is absolutely amazing. I started with 2, but the second one was problematic often enough to warrant a cut (the other creatures dredge).
- Ruination Rioter doesn't perform very well, because it almost always hits its floor and not its ceiling and that required all my resources without being able to win the game; I couldn't even goldfish with him reliably, so I think he's a cut.
- We usually can't delve, because the deck is incredibly dense in graveyard value. We have, like, 4 infestations that we don't mind delving (and even this may change). Of the two threats I'm more interested in Hogaak since the flier doesn't pass the "am I happy to dredge it or does it win the game on its own without caring about removal" barrier.
- Shenanigans could be at most a single copy, because Grudge costs less, is an immediate answer to bridge, can kill Latice by floating mana and isn't card disadvantrage vs Relic. Actually, Force of Vigor is by far the more interesting card, since it's so great in helping us fight graveyard hate (I'd see myself sideboarding 2-3).
- The cycling lands compete directly with white + Hall of Heliod's Generosity slots. If you want to go with white, Bosk is still the best option, since the Hall promotes a play pattern that doesn't mind the ETB tapped effect (do the hall on your upkeep). Unfortunately, waiting three turns to attack (1 to play a white land, 1 to play hall and 1 to get infestation) doesn't appeal to me; we can shorten it by one turn by prioritizing fetching Bosk early on or playing a hall from hand, but I'd much rather Loot or Conflag for a lot and get pressure and disruption going early on than durdle and die.
On the other hand, the cycling lands are simply amazing. Let me rephrase that: they're bonkers. Dredge Imp -> discard it -> dredge it again (or simply dredge another thing) in a single turn nets us enough resources that we shouldn't care about additional copies of infestation.
My current brewing status:
3 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Golgari Brownscale
1 Nether Spirit
Enchantments (4)
4 Zombie Infestation
Lands (25)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Blast Zone
4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
3 Conflagrate
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
Since MTG salvation is shutting down soon, what do u guys think about me creating a Reddit community page so we can continue discussions about the deck?
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
I've never posted on this site, but have been following this thread for a long time (about 2015), and played many of the builds posted, and other versions aswell. Thx to maniospas and danr2000 for their dedication and thorough analyzes.
I would like to participate more in the discussions, and would support danr2000 idea of a reddit page. Furthermore I agree with maniospas about the general modern loam forums. They don't really discuss this exact deck and take on loam.
Well, enough from me. I just hope this thread can continue.
Wow, the fact you've been here so long is awesome! It'd be great to see you post a bit more often in the future .
So guys, ive created the community https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernZombieLoam/ and I would just like to say a few things:
- Any recommendations on how to make the page look nicer will be greatly appreciated, since i'm not very good at aesthetics lmao.
- I've finished uni for the summer, so that means ill have loads of time to work on making the forum as good as I can.
- I was thinking about eventually including a stock list, a detailed primer, an updated sideboard guide, links to Levy's original Zombie Loam articles and obviously, a link to the archived mtg salvation forum.
I've DM'ed you maniospas, so just send me a message and ill mod you
Finally, this is the first time I have managed a forum like this, so please let me know what you guys think I should include/change.
EDIT: I was just browsing Reddit and found this interesting post https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/ausyfb/anybody_playing_zombie_loam/
2nd EDIT: Wow, turns out Raphael Levy wasn't the first guy to come up with the deck idea https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/222960-under-renovation-zombie-loam
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
The reason I bring this up is that usually is better to group up instead of splitting the community. Cheers!