Thanks for your thoughts, and for creating this deck! I'm a huge fan of mono-white decks, and this is definitely one of my favorites.
As far as the allies sub-theme, for me this was more of a budget substitution than an attempt at an improvement. I'm not interested in shelling out for fetchlands at this point, so I needed another solid turn one play to replace Steppe Lynx and Hada Freeblade was the best I could come up with. I think if we get another solid ally or two in Oath of the Gatewatch then the ally sub-theme may be viable, but for now I agree that it isn't quite up to par. I did consider a couple of other options, such as using Steppe Lynx with the Flagstones of Trokair/Ghost Quarter combo in lieu of fetchlands, but I'm not sure if that would be better than using the allies. Thoughts?
Additionally, if I were to cut out Steppe Lynx in favor of a mono-humans approach, do you think it's safe to trim down to 18 lands? I know you had said previously that the Lynx encourages you to play an extra land or two, so I'm wondering if 20 lands are necessary if this particular card is excluded.
I also don't think the Flagstones/GQ combo is good enough to justify running Steppe Lynx in a budget version. I know that people earlier were talking about wanting some number of GQs for the added utility of killing the opponent's lands, but running colorless lands is a huge cost in this deck, to the point that you could almost consider them spell slots in anything other than a Flagstones mana base, and even then it's not like you're always going to be able to play Flagstones first and then GQ. I just see too many opening 7's with Plains, GQ as your only lands, and that's not where you want to be.
Is budget Lynx a better option than the ally subtheme, though? Eh, probably not. I think running creatures I'm not crazy about is still a lot better than turning an already-finicky manabase into something even less reliable, just for the sake of Steppe LYnx. Don't get me wrong, the games where I start with a turn 1 Lynx tend to be the ones I am most likely to win, but there are also plenty of games where I get one attack in with a 4/5 Lynx and then never see another land. In other words, even with a fully stocked fetchland manabase, it's still not uncommon for Lynx to underwhelm in a particular game.
I should say, though, that although I focused on Freeblade before, that's not my biggest concern with the ally subtheme. It's actually Blademaster. I think I've made clear my position on 2-drops, and while Blademaster is a reasonable guy on his own, he only really justifies his spot when he's turning Freeblade into a 2/3, which is not a humongous payoff. If I was looking at a more budget build without Lynx, I might be more inclined to start running more 2-drops, but not of the ally variety. I'm thinking Thalia might be more justified, but some additional aggressive options (I'm thinking something like Accorder Paladin) have seen some rotation in my builds before.
If I was running a build without Lynx and the fetches, I would definitely cut down to 18 lands and possibly even as low as 16, especially in a 1-drop only build.
I've played Grand Abolisher before, but it was in a more mono-White hate-bear style Aether Vial deck. In a straight aggro build, it's not great. Anafenza I have never tried, though it's a bit awkward as a non-Human turn 2 play. With all the X/1s, though, it's probably worth at least considering as a 1 or 2-of. I've heard of others trying the Pegasus, but I am extremely, extremely skeptical of a 1 power non-Human 2-drop in a deck like this. Flying is nice, but Brave the Elements also gives your team pseudo-flying without the delay.
Good to see the OP!!! First of all, thanks you for the deck. It performs really smoothly, and it's a good budget option for the people in modern.
Right now I'm having some troubles with the Card Advantage. Do you think there's some way to gain at least a little of card draw in the deck, without losing to much power??? I've tryed with Windbrisk Heights with bad results.
Also, reporting: Nevermore dosen't work against Ugin in the GR Tron match. Cost to much mana, and our opponent will cast Nature's Claim and game over. Pithing Needle, while it is weak to Nature's Claim, cost 2 less mana = 2 more creatures to have in Play.
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Also, reporting: Nevermore dosen't work against Ugin in the GR Tron match. Cost to much mana, and our opponent will cast Nature's Claim and game over. Pithing Needle, while it is weak to Nature's Claim, cost 2 less mana = 2 more creatures to have in Play.
Phyrexian Revoker is also 2 more creatures than Nevermore by this metric. Might have decent application here in the board, where its ability to turn sideways semi-efficiently and be a piece of must-remove hate for some decks is desirable.
Good to see the OP!!! First of all, thanks you for the deck. It performs really smoothly, and it's a good budget option for the people in modern.
Right now I'm having some troubles with the Card Advantage. Do you think there's some way to gain at least a little of card draw in the deck, without losing to much power??? I've tryed with Windbrisk Heights with bad results.
Also, reporting: Nevermore dosen't work against Ugin in the GR Tron match. Cost to much mana, and our opponent will cast Nature's Claim and game over. Pithing Needle, while it is weak to Nature's Claim, cost 2 less mana = 2 more creatures to have in Play.
Thanks! Glad people like it. If you already have the fetchlands (which is probably recommendation 1 for anyone looking to buy into the format), then it's definitely fairly budget after that.
Ah, card advantage. Aren't all we White mages having trouble with card advantage? The truth is, White simply doesn't get good card advantage, and it probably never will, in order to make up for the color's unparalleled versatility. The best we tend to get is virtual card advantage, which tends to come in the form of hate-bears (as aggressive options go. White also gets hate enchantments, but if you want to go that route, I'd recommend a prison-style strategy, not aggro). The idea being, I don't get actual cards in hand, but if I play an Ethersworn Canonist, suddenly it doesn't really matter too much how many cards my Storm opponent has in hand. While I don't physically gain card advantage, I've essentially bricked your whole hand with 1 card.
I wonder if when you mean card advantage you're also encompassing what I've heard of as velocity: the speed at which you dig through your deck. The idea is that a cantrip isn't card advantage, but its value comes in digging one card deeper in your deck, meaning you have a better chance of finding a specific card than Captain One-Draw-Per-Turn White mage. In other words, the ultimate goal isn't to accumulate more cards in your hand, but to see more cards in your deck. Of course, we don't exactly get that either. This is something combo decks in particular tend to thrive on, since they need specific cards, not straight rush aggro decks, which thrive on the redundancy of their threats.
I'm guessing, though, that you're looking for something to be able to do once you've run out of gas. In all honesty, at that point your best option is probably to go to Game 2, since this deck isn't really built to come back from behind, but if you're really looking for something to try, your best bet is going to be either splashing some Blue, running some hate-bears for specific matchups (though you won't be able to increase your chances of actually drawing them), or running an Immortal Servitude type effect. The thing is, this deck is about maximizing speed and, to a lesser degree, tempo. The deck is making a conscious decision to trade the more long-term resource of card advantage for these short-term advantages. That's why I think you're better off focusing your efforts on not falling behind in the first place. The more cards you put in the deck to help you come from behind, the more likely you are to actually fall behind to start with.
Sorry, English isn't my first language, and sometimes it's hard to say correctly what i try to say
With "Card Advantage" I meaned "A way to draw mores creatures, even faster". You correctly say "the speed at which you dig through your deck". I understand the concept, and your deck is indeed fast, but sometimes i felt against certain deck it needs to be even faster, like Robots or Zoo. Any advise on how to race them????
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Just how much power do you think the deck loses if instead of fetches we use Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse? Of course, this replaces only 2 playsets of fetches and we have to actually get one.
I think that the less spells available in the deck, the greater the use of Thalia, guardian of thraben however, not playing her on turn 2 sounds nice
Belive me, if you don't have the proper fetches for the deck, it's better to use 18 plains.
Think about it in a "matematical way". This deck Ideal match consist in turn one, drop a creature. Turn two, attack with the creature, drop 2 creatures. Turn three, attack with your creatures, drop 3 creatures.
Turn one Steppe Lynx is one of the best turn one you could wish for. By turn three, this beauty cat will deal 8 damage (with the use of fetches). But if you use the evolving wild or terramorphic expanse, the deck will be slowed in the drop os the creatures. Turn 2 you would only drop 1 creature instead of 2. Turn 3, 2 creatures insted of 3.
Honestly, the only reason this deck uses the fetches is Steppe Lynx. I'll suggest you to get the fetches as fast as you can, because they're the full for the wonder cat. If you can't afford them, maybe the Ally subtheme mentioned before could work as a budget replacemente for you
About Thalia, I currently run 3 copies in the Sideboard, and it's like you say: when you need her, you're not gonna use spells. In the match ups where you need Thalia, it's safe to side out things like Path to Exile and Mana Tithe. To say an example, the Storm match up.
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Sorry, English isn't my first language, and sometimes it's hard to say correctly what i try to say
With "Card Advantage" I meaned "A way to draw mores creatures, even faster". You correctly say "the speed at which you dig through your deck". I understand the concept, and your deck is indeed fast, but sometimes i felt against certain deck it needs to be even faster, like Robots or Zoo. Any advise on how to race them????
What do you think about Infiltration Lens as a possible draw engine for this deck ?
Sorry, i was on a trip so i couldn't read the messenges.
About Flagstones of Trokair and Eiganjo Castle, the reason is very simple: they are not fetchebles lands, so it actually thins the deck slower than you wish for. On the bright side, if you manage to use the Flagstones, you'll be spare of the damage from the fetches.
I will agree that the Castle may be of use, but only in the sideboard if you use Thalia.
About Infiltration Lens, the only con I see is that requiere than you're creatures become blocked... And honestly, with this deck, I prefer that the creatures hit the oponent.
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I meant using Flagstones of Trokair instead of Fetches to avoid the damage.
It can be useful in aggro match-ups (damage races), and also to avoid mana-flooding of course.
The deck looks nice, but I'll insist that you should try to find some place in the deck for Figure of Destiny. True, not being human hurts, but the clock it put's on your opponent it's awesome. Between him, the Student and the Champion, they're our most efficient Goyfs for the deck.
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Figure of Destiny seems rather slow for this deck, in it's place I have War Falcon (except for Expedition Envoy every other creature I have is Soldier/Knight so the drawback becomes almost irrelevant) which gives some evasion to the deck or can chump block big flyers in a race situation.
Same could be say about Student of Warfare. Both creatures are rather slow: you don't want to play them before turn 3 or 4, but once they hit the battlefild, they become a huge menace. You should totally give it a try =)
And how are the Ally creatures performing for you????
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Unfortunately it doesn't look like there's anything particularly useful to us in the full Oath of the Gatewatch spoiler, which is disappointing because I really feel like at least one more 1-drop ally is necessary to make the ally-subtheme work. I've been running just Hada Freeblade and Expedition Envoy, and it's pretty clear that there isn't enough synergy there. I considered Kazandu Blademaster but I felt like it led to too many slow starts and/or mulligans. Including just the two 1-drop allies I mentioned is a decent budget option, but not particularly impressive overall.
First off I want to say how awesome it is to see the community behind this deck! I picked this deck up about two months ago and have been Top 4 at my LGS ever since.
I didn't have the money to invest in the Steppe Lynx build, but here is my take on it:
(Forgive me for not knowing the proper deck formatting, this is my first post)
4 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Soildier of the Pantheon
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Boros Elite
2 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Judge's Familiar
4 Brave the Elements
2 Path to Exile
2 Honor of the Pure
18 Plains
My reasoning for the smaller inclusions:
Grand Abolisher: He is a human that can shut down combat tricks on your turn as well as any chance of your opponents countering your important spells.
Judge's Familiar: Basically a Mana Tithe on a flying stick. He also can block incoming Inkmoth Nexi.
Knight of the White Orchid: First Strike against other aggro decks does wonders. It can also allow us to play him and hold up a Path to Exile of Brave the Elements.
Path to Exile: I just don't want to see more than one most of the time. Another two are in the sideboard for other matchups.
My sideboard usually consists of the following:
4 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
4 Sunlance
2 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
BW Tokens is a thing at my LGS so Sundering Growth does wonders here.
Stony Silence is a full-board replacement for Brave the Elements for Tron and Affinity matchups.
Sunlane is just great against small creature aggro, and does a better job than Path most of the time also.
I would love to hear what your takes on it are. I have also loved the discussion done so far, and I want to participate as much as I can. Happy Brewing!
Oh! I also forgot about Honor of the Pure!
It is an awesome play turn three and onward if you have a reasonable boardstate, and I couldn't see playing without it. It does have its flaws against faster aggro decks where all the removal hits our creatures, but overall it is worth it.
Hidralzki, Student of Warfare has some advantages over Figure of Destiny:
1. It is a Human, 2. It can hit for 3 on turn 2 (if necessary), 3. It needs less mana to be effective, 2 mana (which doesn't have to be used all at once) for 3/3 with First Strike while Figure of Destiny needs 1+3 mana to get to 4/4 as the 2/2 form isn't good enough anyway (it's just better to use a 2-drop like Kazandu Blademaster instead imho).
That is why I prefer SoW to FoD.
The Allies work rather well for me and I don't think that FoD or Steppe Lynx would be more consistent in my deck.
jthanshaw,
There is a new 1-drop ally but it's 1/2 and not human in Stoneforge Acolyte.
RidleyTheNinja,
Nice build, here are some ideas I have for it:
I've also noticed that all of you play the full 4x of Kytheon, Hero of Akros, doesn't it cause problems with the Legendary rule ?
I run 3x but maybe I should remove 1x War Falcon to add a 4th one.
Very nice! Judge's Familiar is one of my favorite creatures of all-time, and I'm glad to hear that you've had success with it. I had also considered using Grand Abolisher, so I may have to playtest that one as well.
Overall I think the build looks very solid. I agree with Dennis' suggestion of trying Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in place of Grand Abolisher, but I'm not sure which will work out better. The fact that Grand Abolisher doesn't slow you down might make a big difference. I would stick with Knight of the White Orchid over Consul's Lieutenant though, as the renown effect feels too slow for this deck. Since you don't want to be playing a 2-drop on turn 2, the best case scenario is the Lieutenant comes out on turn 3, gets renowned on turn 4, and then buffs your board starting on turn 5. It seems like Honor of the Pure or Accorder Paladin would be more useful if you're going for this kind of an anthem effect, or Precinct Captain may work in this spot as well. I would also agree with the idea of testing Suppression Field, as it causes major problems for so many decks in Modern.
I'm also playing 4 copies of Kytheon, Hero of Akros, and I don't really run into any issues with the legendary rule either. Opponents know that they don't want Kytheon to flip, so they'll happily trade with it if given the opportunity. If this happens, you can just plop the next one down without losing any steam. Additionally, you can always play another Kytheon after the first flips, since this play technically doesn't violate the legendary rule.
While it may be true that the Student has good advantages over Figure, what I say is that both of them are a mana sink for later turns. You don't play any of them before the 3 turn. Besides, the fact that both of them and the Champion of the Parish are our biggest creatures still be true.
Regarding the full playset of Kytheon, it doesn't give any troubles. You can have both a Kytheon, Hero of Akros and a Gideon, Battle-Forged on the battlefield for the attack. Besides, you always want a flipped Kytheon
RidleyTheNinja
Normally, the deck doesn't require the Honor of the pure, since your creature usually will be bigger than your opponents. It is a White Weenie all-star card, so you can never go wrong using it. Just beware that if you star using Thalia over the Grand Abolisher (you should), use the anthem before playing her, since she interfers with your cards too.
Precinct Captain is awesome if you use the Honor of the Pure, but you'll want full 4 copies of each if you use them.
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Thank you Hidralzki, jthansaw, and D90Dennis14. I will try all the suggestions and report my findings when I can. My computer at the moment is without a charge corx, so it won't be instantaneous when I get results, but I will try.
My thoughts on Judge's Familiar are about the same as to johnkorean's on Mana Tithe. If the flying 1/1 body is useless game 2 and forward, at least you forced your opponent to hold thier Pyroclasm for one turn. Great play if it isn't needed. If it is needed then you have Nexi-blocking, pump-spell negating superstar. Plus it is a creature and not a spell. I will test him out of board for one version (see below), but I see his usefulness game one to be beneficial either way.
Regarding Thalia,
I hold johnkorean's view on it. The best part about this deck is I can hold up one mana and scare the living crap out of my opponent with the threat of all the one drop instants this deck can benefit from. That extra mana cost to all spells is beneficial, and the first strike is no doubt useful, but I have doubts using her.
Regarding Precint Captain,
I really am looking forward to using this charector in my games, especially with Honor of the Pure. He signifies the Pure, scary threat at two-mana I think this deck needs. Now when it comes to him and Knight of the White Orchid, I like Precint Captain in the Honor of the Pure build instead of the Thalia build.
About Knight of the White Orchid:
He is a first strike bear that can fetch a land, which if i am running Thalia, will be crucial. I prefer him over Precinct Captain because of this.
That being said, I will try two routes. One featuring Knight of the White Orchid and Thalia:
.
-2 Honor of the Pure
-2 Grand Abolisher
+2 Thalia, Guardian of Thrabean
+2 Knight of the White Orchid
And the other will feature Precint Captain and Grand Abolisher
-2 Knight of the White Orchid
-2 Judge's Familiar
+4 Precint Captain
Now the sideboard
I will try all the suggestions given and see where it gets me. I still like Stony Silence because it can completley shut down Affinity, as well as some smaller LGS archetypes (Eggs, Master Transmuter, Blue Tron). But if Suppresion Field is more problematic for them as it is for us (bear in mind, leveling up and Figure's abilites are hit also) than a full 4 of is in order.
Here it is:
2 Suppresion Field
2 Stony Silence
2 Harm's Way
2 Dismember
2 Path to Exile
2 Sundering Growth
3 Rest in Peace
That should be all until I get some results. But before I go, I have a question...
How is our Living End matchup?
Are Rest in Peace all we need to beat them?
I wonder this because boardwipes are our biggest threat, and they can do that as early as turn three.
Living End isn't a big issue overall. The early-game pressure that we put up forces them to cascade into Living End before they can put a decent amount of creatures into their graveyard, if they can even manage to do that before dying. Having 4 copies of Path to Exile, 4 copies of Mardu Woe-Reaper, 3 copies of Rest in Peace, and 1 Dismember should make it a fairly easy matchup.
Against Living End, if you don't feel confident, you could use 2 Relic of Progenitus on the Sideboard, but normally the Mardu Woe-REaper and 2 or 3Rest in Peace are more than enough to stop them. Just be sure to flip Kytheon fast and always keep in hand one or two Student of Warefare or Figure of Destiny, just in case.
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I also don't think the Flagstones/GQ combo is good enough to justify running Steppe Lynx in a budget version. I know that people earlier were talking about wanting some number of GQs for the added utility of killing the opponent's lands, but running colorless lands is a huge cost in this deck, to the point that you could almost consider them spell slots in anything other than a Flagstones mana base, and even then it's not like you're always going to be able to play Flagstones first and then GQ. I just see too many opening 7's with Plains, GQ as your only lands, and that's not where you want to be.
Is budget Lynx a better option than the ally subtheme, though? Eh, probably not. I think running creatures I'm not crazy about is still a lot better than turning an already-finicky manabase into something even less reliable, just for the sake of Steppe LYnx. Don't get me wrong, the games where I start with a turn 1 Lynx tend to be the ones I am most likely to win, but there are also plenty of games where I get one attack in with a 4/5 Lynx and then never see another land. In other words, even with a fully stocked fetchland manabase, it's still not uncommon for Lynx to underwhelm in a particular game.
I should say, though, that although I focused on Freeblade before, that's not my biggest concern with the ally subtheme. It's actually Blademaster. I think I've made clear my position on 2-drops, and while Blademaster is a reasonable guy on his own, he only really justifies his spot when he's turning Freeblade into a 2/3, which is not a humongous payoff. If I was looking at a more budget build without Lynx, I might be more inclined to start running more 2-drops, but not of the ally variety. I'm thinking Thalia might be more justified, but some additional aggressive options (I'm thinking something like Accorder Paladin) have seen some rotation in my builds before.
If I was running a build without Lynx and the fetches, I would definitely cut down to 18 lands and possibly even as low as 16, especially in a 1-drop only build.
2-drops that I've tried in a pure aggro build are Accorder Paladin, Thalia, Knight of the White Orchid, and Precinct Captain. You can also count Honor of the Pure as a 2-drop, which gets better with Precinct Captain but is practically unplayable with Thalia.
I've played Grand Abolisher before, but it was in a more mono-White hate-bear style Aether Vial deck. In a straight aggro build, it's not great. Anafenza I have never tried, though it's a bit awkward as a non-Human turn 2 play. With all the X/1s, though, it's probably worth at least considering as a 1 or 2-of. I've heard of others trying the Pegasus, but I am extremely, extremely skeptical of a 1 power non-Human 2-drop in a deck like this. Flying is nice, but Brave the Elements also gives your team pseudo-flying without the delay.
Right now I'm having some troubles with the Card Advantage. Do you think there's some way to gain at least a little of card draw in the deck, without losing to much power??? I've tryed with Windbrisk Heights with bad results.
Also, reporting: Nevermore dosen't work against Ugin in the GR Tron match. Cost to much mana, and our opponent will cast Nature's Claim and game over. Pithing Needle, while it is weak to Nature's Claim, cost 2 less mana = 2 more creatures to have in Play.
Phyrexian Revoker is also 2 more creatures than Nevermore by this metric. Might have decent application here in the board, where its ability to turn sideways semi-efficiently and be a piece of must-remove hate for some decks is desirable.
Thanks! Glad people like it. If you already have the fetchlands (which is probably recommendation 1 for anyone looking to buy into the format), then it's definitely fairly budget after that.
Ah, card advantage. Aren't all we White mages having trouble with card advantage? The truth is, White simply doesn't get good card advantage, and it probably never will, in order to make up for the color's unparalleled versatility. The best we tend to get is virtual card advantage, which tends to come in the form of hate-bears (as aggressive options go. White also gets hate enchantments, but if you want to go that route, I'd recommend a prison-style strategy, not aggro). The idea being, I don't get actual cards in hand, but if I play an Ethersworn Canonist, suddenly it doesn't really matter too much how many cards my Storm opponent has in hand. While I don't physically gain card advantage, I've essentially bricked your whole hand with 1 card.
I wonder if when you mean card advantage you're also encompassing what I've heard of as velocity: the speed at which you dig through your deck. The idea is that a cantrip isn't card advantage, but its value comes in digging one card deeper in your deck, meaning you have a better chance of finding a specific card than Captain One-Draw-Per-Turn White mage. In other words, the ultimate goal isn't to accumulate more cards in your hand, but to see more cards in your deck. Of course, we don't exactly get that either. This is something combo decks in particular tend to thrive on, since they need specific cards, not straight rush aggro decks, which thrive on the redundancy of their threats.
I'm guessing, though, that you're looking for something to be able to do once you've run out of gas. In all honesty, at that point your best option is probably to go to Game 2, since this deck isn't really built to come back from behind, but if you're really looking for something to try, your best bet is going to be either splashing some Blue, running some hate-bears for specific matchups (though you won't be able to increase your chances of actually drawing them), or running an Immortal Servitude type effect. The thing is, this deck is about maximizing speed and, to a lesser degree, tempo. The deck is making a conscious decision to trade the more long-term resource of card advantage for these short-term advantages. That's why I think you're better off focusing your efforts on not falling behind in the first place. The more cards you put in the deck to help you come from behind, the more likely you are to actually fall behind to start with.
With "Card Advantage" I meaned "A way to draw mores creatures, even faster". You correctly say "the speed at which you dig through your deck". I understand the concept, and your deck is indeed fast, but sometimes i felt against certain deck it needs to be even faster, like Robots or Zoo. Any advise on how to race them????
I think that the less spells available in the deck, the greater the use of Thalia, guardian of thraben however, not playing her on turn 2 sounds nice
Think about it in a "matematical way". This deck Ideal match consist in turn one, drop a creature. Turn two, attack with the creature, drop 2 creatures. Turn three, attack with your creatures, drop 3 creatures.
Turn one Steppe Lynx is one of the best turn one you could wish for. By turn three, this beauty cat will deal 8 damage (with the use of fetches). But if you use the evolving wild or terramorphic expanse, the deck will be slowed in the drop os the creatures. Turn 2 you would only drop 1 creature instead of 2. Turn 3, 2 creatures insted of 3.
Honestly, the only reason this deck uses the fetches is Steppe Lynx. I'll suggest you to get the fetches as fast as you can, because they're the full for the wonder cat. If you can't afford them, maybe the Ally subtheme mentioned before could work as a budget replacemente for you
About Thalia, I currently run 3 copies in the Sideboard, and it's like you say: when you need her, you're not gonna use spells. In the match ups where you need Thalia, it's safe to side out things like Path to Exile and Mana Tithe. To say an example, the Storm match up.
It can help thin the deck painlessly.
Also a copy of Eiganjo Castle can help flip Kytheon, Hero of Akros and protect Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
What do you think about Infiltration Lens as a possible draw engine for this deck ?
About Flagstones of Trokair and Eiganjo Castle, the reason is very simple: they are not fetchebles lands, so it actually thins the deck slower than you wish for. On the bright side, if you manage to use the Flagstones, you'll be spare of the damage from the fetches.
I will agree that the Castle may be of use, but only in the sideboard if you use Thalia.
About Infiltration Lens, the only con I see is that requiere than you're creatures become blocked... And honestly, with this deck, I prefer that the creatures hit the oponent.
It can be useful in aggro match-ups (damage races), and also to avoid mana-flooding of course.
Ejango Castle can help with flipping Kytheon, Hero of Akros as well.
I see Infiltration Lens as a win-win situation, or you get damage through or you get to draw cards (which the deck sorely needs).
Another card that I think can be good in this deck is Harm's Way which can be a Bolt substitute and help in creature battles.
Suppression Field can also work well in this deck (it only interferes with Student of Warfare and Gideon, Battle-Forged if we don't play Fetches) and can help against a variety of decks.
Here is the version of the deck that I'm playing at the moment:
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Expedition Envoy
4x War Falcon
4x Hada Freeblade
4x Kazandu Blademaster
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Student of Warfare
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Brave the Elements
4x Path to Exile
Land (19)
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Flagstones of Trokair
14x Plains
2x Disenchant
2x Dismember
2x Suppression Field
2x Harm's Way
2x Honor of the Pure
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Infiltration Lens
2x Rest in Peace
And how are the Ally creatures performing for you????
I didn't have the money to invest in the Steppe Lynx build, but here is my take on it:
(Forgive me for not knowing the proper deck formatting, this is my first post)
4 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Soildier of the Pantheon
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Boros Elite
2 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Judge's Familiar
4 Brave the Elements
2 Path to Exile
2 Honor of the Pure
18 Plains
My reasoning for the smaller inclusions:
Grand Abolisher: He is a human that can shut down combat tricks on your turn as well as any chance of your opponents countering your important spells.
Judge's Familiar: Basically a Mana Tithe on a flying stick. He also can block incoming Inkmoth Nexi.
Knight of the White Orchid: First Strike against other aggro decks does wonders. It can also allow us to play him and hold up a Path to Exile of Brave the Elements.
Path to Exile: I just don't want to see more than one most of the time. Another two are in the sideboard for other matchups.
My sideboard usually consists of the following:
4 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
4 Sunlance
2 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
BW Tokens is a thing at my LGS so Sundering Growth does wonders here.
Stony Silence is a full-board replacement for Brave the Elements for Tron and Affinity matchups.
Sunlane is just great against small creature aggro, and does a better job than Path most of the time also.
I would love to hear what your takes on it are. I have also loved the discussion done so far, and I want to participate as much as I can. Happy Brewing!
It is an awesome play turn three and onward if you have a reasonable boardstate, and I couldn't see playing without it. It does have its flaws against faster aggro decks where all the removal hits our creatures, but overall it is worth it.
Carry on!
Student of Warfare has some advantages over Figure of Destiny:
1. It is a Human, 2. It can hit for 3 on turn 2 (if necessary), 3. It needs less mana to be effective, 2 mana (which doesn't have to be used all at once) for 3/3 with First Strike while Figure of Destiny needs 1+3 mana to get to 4/4 as the 2/2 form isn't good enough anyway (it's just better to use a 2-drop like Kazandu Blademaster instead imho).
That is why I prefer SoW to FoD.
The Allies work rather well for me and I don't think that FoD or Steppe Lynx would be more consistent in my deck.
jthanshaw,
There is a new 1-drop ally but it's 1/2 and not human in Stoneforge Acolyte.
RidleyTheNinja,
Nice build, here are some ideas I have for it:
1. I think that Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is better than Grand Abolisher most of the time and can block rather well with first strike.
2. Instead of Knight of the White Orchid I would rather play Consul's Lieutenant that can buff your board when "renowned" or Kazandu Blademaster which has Vigilance and can get bigger (and works well with Allies like: Hada Freeblade and Expedition Envoy).
3. Judge's Familiar is probably better in the sideboard as a 1-power creature is rather underwhelming in this kind of deck most of the time.
4. In the sideboard I would suggest 2x Harm's Way and 2x Dismember instead of Sunlance.
Suppression Field can also be a good option as it functions similarly to Stony Silence against artifacts and can hit other abilies as well (like Fetches and PW's).
5. Silver-Inlaid Dagger can be a decent option for this deck, especially againt removal-heavy decks.
I've also noticed that all of you play the full 4x of Kytheon, Hero of Akros, doesn't it cause problems with the Legendary rule ?
I run 3x but maybe I should remove 1x War Falcon to add a 4th one.
Very nice! Judge's Familiar is one of my favorite creatures of all-time, and I'm glad to hear that you've had success with it. I had also considered using Grand Abolisher, so I may have to playtest that one as well.
Overall I think the build looks very solid. I agree with Dennis' suggestion of trying Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in place of Grand Abolisher, but I'm not sure which will work out better. The fact that Grand Abolisher doesn't slow you down might make a big difference. I would stick with Knight of the White Orchid over Consul's Lieutenant though, as the renown effect feels too slow for this deck. Since you don't want to be playing a 2-drop on turn 2, the best case scenario is the Lieutenant comes out on turn 3, gets renowned on turn 4, and then buffs your board starting on turn 5. It seems like Honor of the Pure or Accorder Paladin would be more useful if you're going for this kind of an anthem effect, or Precinct Captain may work in this spot as well. I would also agree with the idea of testing Suppression Field, as it causes major problems for so many decks in Modern.
I'm also playing 4 copies of Kytheon, Hero of Akros, and I don't really run into any issues with the legendary rule either. Opponents know that they don't want Kytheon to flip, so they'll happily trade with it if given the opportunity. If this happens, you can just plop the next one down without losing any steam. Additionally, you can always play another Kytheon after the first flips, since this play technically doesn't violate the legendary rule.
While it may be true that the Student has good advantages over Figure, what I say is that both of them are a mana sink for later turns. You don't play any of them before the 3 turn. Besides, the fact that both of them and the Champion of the Parish are our biggest creatures still be true.
Regarding the full playset of Kytheon, it doesn't give any troubles. You can have both a Kytheon, Hero of Akros and a Gideon, Battle-Forged on the battlefield for the attack. Besides, you always want a flipped Kytheon
RidleyTheNinja
Normally, the deck doesn't require the Honor of the pure, since your creature usually will be bigger than your opponents. It is a White Weenie all-star card, so you can never go wrong using it. Just beware that if you star using Thalia over the Grand Abolisher (you should), use the anthem before playing her, since she interfers with your cards too.
Precinct Captain is awesome if you use the Honor of the Pure, but you'll want full 4 copies of each if you use them.
My thoughts on Judge's Familiar are about the same as to johnkorean's on Mana Tithe. If the flying 1/1 body is useless game 2 and forward, at least you forced your opponent to hold thier Pyroclasm for one turn. Great play if it isn't needed. If it is needed then you have Nexi-blocking, pump-spell negating superstar. Plus it is a creature and not a spell. I will test him out of board for one version (see below), but I see his usefulness game one to be beneficial either way.
Regarding Thalia,
I hold johnkorean's view on it. The best part about this deck is I can hold up one mana and scare the living crap out of my opponent with the threat of all the one drop instants this deck can benefit from. That extra mana cost to all spells is beneficial, and the first strike is no doubt useful, but I have doubts using her.
Regarding Precint Captain,
I really am looking forward to using this charector in my games, especially with Honor of the Pure. He signifies the Pure, scary threat at two-mana I think this deck needs. Now when it comes to him and Knight of the White Orchid, I like Precint Captain in the Honor of the Pure build instead of the Thalia build.
About Knight of the White Orchid:
He is a first strike bear that can fetch a land, which if i am running Thalia, will be crucial. I prefer him over Precinct Captain because of this.
That being said, I will try two routes. One featuring Knight of the White Orchid and Thalia:
.
-2 Honor of the Pure
-2 Grand Abolisher
+2 Thalia, Guardian of Thrabean
+2 Knight of the White Orchid
And the other will feature Precint Captain and Grand Abolisher
-2 Knight of the White Orchid
-2 Judge's Familiar
+4 Precint Captain
Now the sideboard
I will try all the suggestions given and see where it gets me. I still like Stony Silence because it can completley shut down Affinity, as well as some smaller LGS archetypes (Eggs, Master Transmuter, Blue Tron). But if Suppresion Field is more problematic for them as it is for us (bear in mind, leveling up and Figure's abilites are hit also) than a full 4 of is in order.
Here it is:
2 Suppresion Field
2 Stony Silence
2 Harm's Way
2 Dismember
2 Path to Exile
2 Sundering Growth
3 Rest in Peace
That should be all until I get some results. But before I go, I have a question...
How is our Living End matchup?
Are Rest in Peace all we need to beat them?
I wonder this because boardwipes are our biggest threat, and they can do that as early as turn three.
That is all! Happy Brewing!