I have been trying for a long time to find an aggressive White Weenie deck to play in Modern, and every time I think I've got it, I feel like it's one or 2 cards short. I think I've finally found what I'm looking for.
White is known for having a bunch of Savannah Lions-type 1-drops, but a deck full of 2/1s doesn't have what it takes to compete in Modern. If you're going to have a deck full of creatures with "just" power and toughness, I think you need to take your lead from the preeminent creature with "just" power and toughness in the history of the game: Tarmogoyf. To me, the key to a plausible White aggro in Modern is not the Savannah Lions but rather the Goyfs, i.e. the 1-drops that can get even bigger than a 2/1. I took a look at all the White 1-drops to see how many Goyfs there actually are, and it turns out there's a quite a few. Some of them simply don't have the support to consistently get there (Hada Freeblade), some need way too much mana (Caravan Escort), and some require the deck to be warped around them too much (Ardent Recruit). However, that still leaves a large number of 1-drop Goyfs to work with.
Over many iterations of the deck, I've come to find that you really want to play a 1-drop on turn 1 and 2 more 1-drops on turn 2 just about every game, and having a timely spell on turn 3 (or even turn 2 in some games) can just win the game. I think the ideal opener has at least 3 creatures, 2 lands, and 1 spell (leaving room for one wild card). I did some multivariate hypergeometric distribution calculations and concluded that in order to maximize the chances of this type of hand, you want to run 29 creatures, 20 land, and 11 spells. Prior to doing this math, I had been running 28, 20, and 12, so I was already pretty much right on track.
1-Drop Goyfs Steppe Lynx: Best as a turn 1 play. Requires the manabase to be built around it, which doesn't actually cost you anything in this deck. Champion of the Parish: Best as a turn 1 play. Once this becomes a 4/4 or bigger, it's unkillable against a lot of decks. Boros Elite: Best as a turn 2 play. Look, this card isn't very good, but it serves a purpose. Kytheon, Hero of Akros: Best as a turn 2 play. Might be good enough to justify running 4. Student of Warfare: Best as a turn 3 play. You don't really want to invest mana in this guy early; he's more of a mana sink/late game threat. Figure of Destiny: Best as a turn 3 play. I was originally skeptical, but this guy puts in a ton of work.
Savannah Lions Soldier of the Pantheon: Both this and the next card are really only there as extra Humans to help you reach a critical mass of creatures. The protection can randomly be relevant. Mardu Woe-Reaper: Again, just adds another Human body. The ability is rarely relevant, but can sometimes shrink opposing Goyfs.
Spells Brave the Elements: Counterspell/Falter split card. 4 may seem like overkill, but it enables you to go for broke with landfall/leveling or break a stalemate. Path to Exile: Best removal spell in White, possibly the format. Mana Tithe: Clearly not a good card, but it is a great play. You can show it to them game 1 and then side them out for game 2. Honor of the Pure: Since the deck is spamming 1-drops, Honor of the Pure is a great card and one of the draws to playing mono-White.
Land Arid Mesa, Marsh Flats, Windswept Heath: Really can be any 12 fetchlands, so not much to say, they are here purely to pump Steppe Lynx. Plains: 8 is enough. Games in which you somehow run out of Plains are not games where you had a realistic shot at winning anyway.
Still working on the sideboard, but that's where I'm at for right now. Hoping to take this list out for a spin and see if it performs.
One specific question I have: what would be the best second color to make my opponents think I'm running based on the fetchland I choose to run? In other words, imagine the following scenario:
You are my opponent, and you have no idea what deck I'm playing. I start off with Turn 1 PlainsChampion of the Parish go, Turn 2 fetchland + Student of Warfare. Which fetchland would affect the way you play out that game the most?
Assuming you just had the above list and swapped the Marsh Flats for something else, I would be most concerned seeing Arid Mesa. That would make me think that perhaps you are running burn and I may end up playing accordingly, making some potentially disadvantageous plays to avoid falling into easy burn range.
Honestly, I don't think any would have much impact on me, since fetching up a basic plains can kind of give away that they are just for landfall. This is from the perspective of playing UW Tron against you, so a more aggressive opponent could potentially be convinced of you saving life points and just not needing the red for the moment.
What I'm saying is that if you have Marsh Flats and not other white fetches, I wouldn't worry about what ones you are using, but if you have them all anyway, I would recommend Arid Mesa.
Assuming you just had the above list and swapped the Marsh Flats for something else, I would be most concerned seeing Arid Mesa. That would make me think that perhaps you are running burn and I may end up playing accordingly, making some potentially disadvantageous plays to avoid falling into easy burn range.
Honestly, I don't think any would have much impact on me, since fetching up a basic plains can kind of give away that they are just for landfall. This is from the perspective of playing UW Tron against you, so a more aggressive opponent could potentially be convinced of you saving life points and just not needing the red for the moment.
What I'm saying is that if you have Marsh Flats and not other white fetches, I wouldn't worry about what ones you are using, but if you have them all anyway, I would recommend Arid Mesa.
Thanks for the comment! This matches up pretty much exactly with what I was originally thinking: Red = burn, Boros Charm, etc., but the jig is up when I fetch a basic Plains.
I don't own fetches, so I'll probably get the Marsh Flats since they're the cheapest*, but eventually I'll upgrade to Arid Mesa.
*When I buy cards, I like getting original printings.
I played White Weenie in Standard for a while. Here's my observations: Knight of the White Orchid is awesome. Honor of the Pure is a must-have. Brave the Elements is good, but you usually don't want to draw multiple copies. Consider playing 2-3.
If you're going for Steppe Lynx, play more fetchlands.
Remove Adventuring Gear. The Swords are much more powerful.
A red splash might be worthwhile, since you're already playing fetches. Lightning Bolt is pretty great. Silverblade Paladin: A 3-drop that can die to Lightning Bolt without doing anything is underwhelming. Brimaz, King of Oreskos is slower, but survives Bolt and is great alone, whereas the Paladin requires other creatures to be good. Kor Firewalker was a great sideboard card. Burn is strong in modern, so it should be even better. Harm's Way was decent as well. Protecting 2-toughness guys from Lightning Bolt and hitting your opponent in the face for 2, or killing a Goblin Guide, is very nice. With the number of 1-touhgness guys you're running, though, you might want to skip it.
Make sure to check out the Death and Taxes and GW Hatebears lists in case they have some stuff that might be useful to you. Things like Ethersworn Canonist and Judge's Familiar aren't the best beaters, but buying an extra turn can be enough to win a game that you'd otherwise lose.
Honor of the Pure is another card in serious consideration for the last slot, with Aether Vial (replacing the 2 Adventuring Gear and Ranger of Eos). I prefer it in token strategies, though, since in this deck you'll usually only be pumping another 2 or 3 creatures.
Brave the Elements as a 4-of might be excessive, but I think it's better to shave in games 2 and 3 rather than start off with 2-3. It's the kind of card you really want to be able to show your opponent game 1 so that they respect it games 2 and 3. Plus, it's basically a 1-mana Negate/Falter split card, so as long as you have some sort of board presence it's not a dead draw, and if you don't have a board presence it's not like topdecking a Bear was going to win you that game anyway.
I haven't had any experience building a landfall manabase, but I want to avoid running too many fetchlands and not enough fetchables (there are only 8 as is, and if I put in more fetchlands, I'd either have to take out Plains or up the land count). Plus Flagstones of Trokair and Ghost Quarter are functional fetchlands.
I think you're right about Adventuring Gear. I'm able to play Steppe Lynx because the cost of building the manabase around it is free since no other cards care about lands, and adding in weaker landfall cards because the manabase now supports it is backwards logic. I'm going to take them out, but I also need to figure out if the 2 Ranger of Eos should go with it.
In the future, I would probably go Boros, but for now I'm stuck with mono-White for quasi-budgetary reasons. Someday I'll be able to collect and keep cards of other colors, but it is not this day.
While Brimaz, King of Oreskos is undoubtedly a more powerful card on its own, I think Silverblade Paladin fits the deck better. This is a low-to-the-ground, turn-4-goldfish pure aggro deck (with some tempo elements instead of reach). I have a good amount of experience with Silverblade Paladin, and generally speaking if they kill Silverblade Paladin instead of the guy it was soulbonded with, that's usually good for you. As for needing other creatures in order to be good, that can really be said of the deck as a whole. I'm not trying to play a deck that plays individually powerful threats. It's much more of a sum-of-the-parts strategy, and it generally folds to removal.dec. I'm ok with this.
I will definitely keep these sideboard suggestions in mind. Kor Firewalker seems especially relevant in the current meta.
Finally, I had some good discussion with a bunch of the regulars in the D&T thread (and a bit in Hatebears) but ultimately concluded that aggro is in my blood. My initial build (with the Savannah Lions-esque Humans) ran Ethersworn Canonist as well as Grand Abolisher; I could see myself playing 2 each in place of the Adventuring Gear and Ranger of Eos.
Hmm, the more I goldfish this deck, the less I'm liking Ghost Quarter. It's fantastic when I have Flagstones of Trokair and Steppe Lynx, but it's pretty atrocious without. Now that I've included Figure of Destiny to go along with the Student of Warfare that was already in, I'm thinking the deck can't really afford colorless lands. Maybe I should swap out Ghost Quarter for more fetchlands, and maybe this is what Mysticake was suggesting. I had thought you meant take out Plains for fetches.
Major changes to the deck. Bottomo line: I wasn't hitting hard enough or fast enough because I was too preoccupied with finding the best hatebears. This version is much leaner, much lower-to-the-ground, and looks much more like what an aggro deck should look like. I also cut the Path to Exiles which seems insane on the surface, but I'm not convinced they're necessary to the game plan. Not many opposing creatures can keep up in efficiency and are often reduced to chump-blocking.
Another change: I'm swapping out the Knight of the White Orchids for Accorder Paladins. I think the Plains-fetching ability of Knight of the White Orchid sounds great in theory but isn't as great in practice. It seems like you never actually have fewer lands, in which case you're just running a 2/2 for 2, and a lot of times you'd just rather have a good aggressive 2-drop to run out.
I've always been a white weenie fan at heart and I like what you are heading. When I build WW I like to curve out to 4-mana
Here are some additional card considerations
Make adjustments based on meta and budget. You might also be able to cut a land or two from my list but idk I'm just too used to running 24 in this list, with fetches u could optimize.
EDIT: you could also squeeze in some number of paladin en-vecs into your list if burn is huge in your meta
a decent list, though I would definitely consider splashing red for Lightning Bolt, Boros Charm, and Legion Loyalist... theyre just too damn good to not run in a weenie aggro build. Also, why no Path to Exile?
Beyond those simple additions its missing one of the key elements of legacy WW builds... no board wipes. White being able to reset the game to turn one is one of its best strengths, especially after your opponent stabilizes turn 3/4. Without burn or interaction your worst matchups with be Tron, Affinity, and Pod which will all stabilize or threaten a win by turn 4.
Whoa, wasn't expecting so many comments. I'll try to address them in order:
@Meelman: Thanks for the suggestions! I originally had a list with Silverblade Paladin and Hero of Bladehold, but after extensive revision I've been much happier with a more hyper-aggro strategy rather than curve-out aggro. Dismember seems like a great card to board in in certain matchups, though.
@deadmarmon: Thanks for the suggestions! For now I've been sticking with a hyper-aggro dump-your-hand style, but Knights is a deck I've also been keeping my eye on if this fails spectacularly.
@Chr0me... Chr0m3... the third guy: I need to keep it mono-White for now due to sort-of budget reasons (the deal I have with my wife is I can hold on to 1 color as long as I sell off the other 4), but if I was going 2 color it would definitely be Boros. Path to Exile will be in the board for must-kill creatures, but with the build I'm going for, I plan to mostly ignore the opponent's board by swinging with 4/5 Steppe Lynx and 4/4 Champion of the Parish or swinging with 5 guys at the same time or simply Brave the Elements for unblockable. As for board wipes, I don't think this is the right deck for them. This is an extremely proactive turn 4 deck, and while having a reset button is useful if the opponent has managed to out-board presence me, by that point in the game I'm not going to have many resources to rebuild with anyway.
This is my take on hyper aggro WW. Just flood with creatures and try to get there. I ran something like this in Standard a few years ago. It worked for one tournament, I took first, but it didnt work the following week. I'm not sure how it would fair week after week tbh. It sure is fast though.
Finally took this deck out for a spin, although I showed up to the card shop and they didn't have Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Kor Firewalker in stock, so I played an 11 card sideboard with 3 Immortal Servitude instead of 2.
It was only a 12-person tournament, so obviously I can't take too much away from this, but I did go 4-0, beating Abzan aggro, Grixis control, Burn, and I guess WURG Kiki-Pod? The games were generally super interesting, and unsurprisingly Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is the best card in the deck, but Brave the Elements was probably the MVP. Also, I may have been overestimating how bad the Burn matchup is since I beat it without Kor Firewalker. Turns out getting Champion of the Parish to a 4/4 is practically GG.
With your current curve, you can probably cut down on lands and remove elspeth and the servitudes from the sideboard. If you want a mass-reanimation spell in the deck I suggest Return to the Ranks. It has a similar return of 2-3 creatures at 4-5 mana on an empty board, but if you have surviving creatures you can get even more value out of it. Cutting lands also gives you room to play Dyrad Militant without cutting into your human count.
I've considered dropping the land count, as the predecessor to this deck played 16 land. However, that deck was also running Aether Vial which helps cheat on mana, and I actually think this deck wants the land. Making Steppe Lynx a 4/5 every turn is huge, you usually want to be playing multiple spells a turn, and you also need the mana to pump into Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny. If I cut land, they'd have to be fetches, and I really want to have 3 fetches in the first 4 turns for Steppe Lynx if possible. Sure, the deck can operate just fine on 1 land, but it really gets unfair when you have 3 land on turn 3.
I debated among Immortal Servitude, Return to the Ranks, and Proclamation of Rebirth as a post-sweeper mass reanimation spell. What I like about Immortal Servitude is that you don't have to worry about overextending (unless they're not putting your creatures into the yard, such as Anger of the Gods or Terminus, stuff like that). You can just dump your hand, let them die, and bring them all back for 4 mana. Return to the Ranks doesn't provide nearly the same rate (although getting Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and any sideboarded 2-drops back can be nice), and while the flexibility of forecasting Proclamation of Rebirth if you have the mana is nice, I think bringing back ALL your one-drops makes the extra mana on Immortal Servitude worth it. I think Return to the Ranks is better against decks packing a ton of 1-for-1 removal, but not sweepers.
As for Dryad Militant, I like him, and he makes sense in certain White aggro decks, but this deck isn't really in the market for more Savannah Lions. I already have Soldier of the Pantheon and Elite Vanguard, and they're really only there because they're Human. I also think this deck can't really take advantage of Dryad Militant's ability.
Just saw Mardu Woe-Reaper. Although the ability might not always be the most relevant, it's more-or-less strictly better than Elite Vanguard. That's an easy swap.
Hi! I really like your build but i've made some adjustments and i'd like to share it with you:
- I made a Red splash just for Norin The Wary which is just awesome in any build trying to abuse Champion of the Parrish
- I made a Black splash for Athreos, God of Passage for some insurance in case of a boardswipe or even targeted removal and in this deck its not unusual to see it being a creature so i think its worth the gamble. And secondly i also splashed for Bob, this seems good to me 'cause allows you to refill your hand and this deck has a very low curve so the damage isnt a thing to be worry.
In general i liked this deck and is fun to play with, it has multiple points in every game when you have to make a choice that will win or lose you the game specially in T2 and T3.
Thanks for the recent comments! I updated the first post to reflect the Mardu Woe-Reaper swap.
@mparodi3391: I'd love to see your decklist. Splashing other colors may become an option for me down the road, but for right now it's strictly mono-White for quasi-budget reasons. Plus Brave the Elements puts in good work in a format where the primary sweepers are damage-based red spells.
@mrproctornz: I couldn't agree more.
My only regret is not getting to play this deck more, as I have very limited time to play. I do tend to shuffle up and goldfish during my downtime, though, and the deck just feels sooooooo good.
I don't think traditional white weenie beat-down is good enough in modern. I think the angle you want to take with a deck like this is Death and Taxes. It's like a white weenie deck, but also attacks the opponent through another angle; resource denial. Here is a link to the sub for Death and Taxes. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/562814-wx-death-and-taxes]
I played this deck for a good 3 months. It's a tier 2 deck, but it's job is to attack the tier one decks. There was never a match-up that seemed unbeatable, and there is some games where your opponent gets locked out with things like; Turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, They tap our on their turn, and you turn 3 Leonin Arbiter into Ghost Quarter and essential Strip Mine their land (including basics!). You can also fill the board up really quick with AEther Vial. Turn 4 wins are possible just from the sheer amount of creatures you can pump out with Vial and flickering Blade splicer with Flickerwisp(which also can do insane things in this deck with vial), or Restoration Angel.
Edit: ughh sorry, didn't realize this was the deck creation sub. Feel free to ignore/delete this post.
Got to play in a 20-person Modern tournament last night, ended up going 3-1.
Round 1: Scapeshift, Win 2-0
Not much to tell. Game 1 I curved out and killed him on turn 4. Game 2 could have gone either way and I was fortunate that my opponent drew quite poorly, but he also played around Brave the Elements (which I was leaving open every turn but didn't have) for 4 or 5 turns which gave me all the time I needed. Having 3 Honor of the Pures out was obviously good for me and turned his Obstinate Baloths into chump blockers.
This was an interesting but frustrating match, as in retrospect I cost myself the victory by being too conservative. Game 1 I cruised to victory, Game 2 he barely squeaked it out (through a turn 2 Kor Firewalker no less!). Game 3 I played too conservatively and was punished. I was stuck on 2 lands the whole game but was afraid of tapping out and getting my creatures burned (I had Brave the Elements in hand), so I never played 2 threats in a turn, and I also never activated Figure of Destiny either of the turns I had the opportunity to. Making Figure bigger on his end step would have given him a window to kill one of my guys, but in retrospect I should have gone for it since I should have realized the majority of his burn spells target players only. Plus, a burn spell used on my creature is a burn spell not pointed at my face. Instead, I attacked him down to 2, he cast Flames of the Blood Hand on end step, untapped and played 2 Bump in the Nights for exactsies.
MVP: Probably Thalia, Guardian of Thraben again, which is unsurprising since it's by far the best card in the deck, but it's especially good against Burn.
LVP: me.
Round 3: Burn, Win 2-0
Not competitive, and frankly nothing interesting to report. Game 2 saw me with a turn 2 Kor Firewalker followed by turn 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and that was that.
This was also an interesting match, though it ended a bit anticlimactically. Game 1 my opponent was stuck on 1 mana, and like an idiot (and with my round 2 loss for being too conservative still fresh in my mind) I decided to go for it and dumped my hand to put lethal on the board. Naturally, he draws a land for the turn and casts a 5-for-1 Pyroclasm. I don't draw another creature the rest of the game, and concede after Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre comes down. Game 2 I should have lost. I was able to get Champion of the Parish out of Pyroclasm range on turn 2, and eventually had a 4/4 Champion of the Parish, Soldier of the Pantheon, Elite Vanguard, and 3/3 first striking Student of Warfare with my opponent at 8 life. Then he plays Wurmcoil Engine. I have a Disenchant and a Brave the Elements (my sideboard options for the matchup are basically nonexistent). Effectively game over. I swing with the team, and much to my surprise, he blocks the Student of Warfare. Disenchant on the Wurmcoil Engine before damage, I deal exactsies, and we go to Game 3. Unfortunately, Game 3 my opponent is stuck on 1 land again, and turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben followed by more missed land drops quickly ends the game.
All in all I think 3-1 was a fair result, since I should have beaten Burn but also should have lost to Tron. I also feel like the deck underperformed, as I never got to cast Brave the Elements and only led off with turn 1 Champion of the Parish/Steppe Lynx 2 out of 10 games. Finally, after the bannings my sideboard really needs tweaking. 6 of the 15 cards never got sided in, and there were definitely matches where I could have used the extra slots.
Brave the Elements: Counterspell/Falter split card. 4 may seem like overkill, but it enables you to go for broke with landfall or break a stalemate.
From my experience with a WW Blitz deck just like this from last standard season, do not ever doubt your 4x Brave the Elements. I believe 6x would be right if it was legal.
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Another 20-man tourney under my belt, and this one went... well, poorly. Before the tourney I decided to mess with the deck a bit. I'd been noticing that Path to Exile had been coming in against virtually everything, and it simply didn't make sense not to maindeck it anymore. I couldn't cut Brave the Elements since that card has been filthy good, and I reasoned that Honor of the Pure could go since it can't attack and is only high impact when you're already winning.
This was against a new player, and there's really nothing to say. Game 2 even knowing I was on hyper-aggro she kept a 3 Military Intelligence (?????) hand and I rolled her over. I did win in style, though. She was at 11 and I swung for 10, and before damage Path to Exiled my 1/1 Student of Warfare to trigger Steppe Lynx for the extra damage I needed.
Round 3: Twin, Lose 2-0
Game 1 he basically trades 1-for-1 with me for forever, we eventually reach topdeck mode and I can't finish him off. Game 2 was more of the same, as he just had too much removal for me to deal with.
A forgettable performance, but I kind of knew going in I wasn't in the right mindstate to do well, as I was operating on very little sleep all week and stressed out at work. I did figure out, however, that while moving Path to Exile into the main was the right call, I took out the wrong card, as I likely would have won 2 of my matches if I had Honor of the Pure in the deck. My reasoning for taking it out had been that it doesn't attack and is awful when you're rebuilding, but what I failed to take into account is that it is an excellent turn 3 play that increases your clock without committing more creatures to the board. I think the right card to take out is Boros Elite, since although it attacks, it was a pitifully underwhelming card all night long.
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Over many iterations of the deck, I've come to find that you really want to play a 1-drop on turn 1 and 2 more 1-drops on turn 2 just about every game, and having a timely spell on turn 3 (or even turn 2 in some games) can just win the game. I think the ideal opener has at least 3 creatures, 2 lands, and 1 spell (leaving room for one wild card). I did some multivariate hypergeometric distribution calculations and concluded that in order to maximize the chances of this type of hand, you want to run 29 creatures, 20 land, and 11 spells. Prior to doing this math, I had been running 28, 20, and 12, so I was already pretty much right on track.
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Boros Elite
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Student of Warfare
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Mardu Woe-Reaper
Spells
4 Brave the Elements
2 Path to Exile
2 Mana Tithe
3 Honor of the Pure
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
8 Plains
1-Drop Goyfs
Steppe Lynx: Best as a turn 1 play. Requires the manabase to be built around it, which doesn't actually cost you anything in this deck.
Champion of the Parish: Best as a turn 1 play. Once this becomes a 4/4 or bigger, it's unkillable against a lot of decks.
Boros Elite: Best as a turn 2 play. Look, this card isn't very good, but it serves a purpose.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros: Best as a turn 2 play. Might be good enough to justify running 4.
Student of Warfare: Best as a turn 3 play. You don't really want to invest mana in this guy early; he's more of a mana sink/late game threat.
Figure of Destiny: Best as a turn 3 play. I was originally skeptical, but this guy puts in a ton of work.
Savannah Lions
Soldier of the Pantheon: Both this and the next card are really only there as extra Humans to help you reach a critical mass of creatures. The protection can randomly be relevant.
Mardu Woe-Reaper: Again, just adds another Human body. The ability is rarely relevant, but can sometimes shrink opposing Goyfs.
Spells
Brave the Elements: Counterspell/Falter split card. 4 may seem like overkill, but it enables you to go for broke with landfall/leveling or break a stalemate.
Path to Exile: Best removal spell in White, possibly the format.
Mana Tithe: Clearly not a good card, but it is a great play. You can show it to them game 1 and then side them out for game 2.
Honor of the Pure: Since the deck is spamming 1-drops, Honor of the Pure is a great card and one of the draws to playing mono-White.
Land
Arid Mesa, Marsh Flats, Windswept Heath: Really can be any 12 fetchlands, so not much to say, they are here purely to pump Steppe Lynx.
Plains: 8 is enough. Games in which you somehow run out of Plains are not games where you had a realistic shot at winning anyway.
Still working on the sideboard, but that's where I'm at for right now. Hoping to take this list out for a spin and see if it performs.
You are my opponent, and you have no idea what deck I'm playing. I start off with Turn 1 Plains Champion of the Parish go, Turn 2 fetchland + Student of Warfare. Which fetchland would affect the way you play out that game the most?
Honestly, I don't think any would have much impact on me, since fetching up a basic plains can kind of give away that they are just for landfall. This is from the perspective of playing UW Tron against you, so a more aggressive opponent could potentially be convinced of you saving life points and just not needing the red for the moment.
What I'm saying is that if you have Marsh Flats and not other white fetches, I wouldn't worry about what ones you are using, but if you have them all anyway, I would recommend Arid Mesa.
Thanks for the comment! This matches up pretty much exactly with what I was originally thinking: Red = burn, Boros Charm, etc., but the jig is up when I fetch a basic Plains.
I don't own fetches, so I'll probably get the Marsh Flats since they're the cheapest*, but eventually I'll upgrade to Arid Mesa.
*When I buy cards, I like getting original printings.
Knight of the White Orchid is awesome.
Honor of the Pure is a must-have.
Brave the Elements is good, but you usually don't want to draw multiple copies. Consider playing 2-3.
If you're going for Steppe Lynx, play more fetchlands.
Remove Adventuring Gear. The Swords are much more powerful.
A red splash might be worthwhile, since you're already playing fetches. Lightning Bolt is pretty great.
Silverblade Paladin: A 3-drop that can die to Lightning Bolt without doing anything is underwhelming. Brimaz, King of Oreskos is slower, but survives Bolt and is great alone, whereas the Paladin requires other creatures to be good.
Kor Firewalker was a great sideboard card. Burn is strong in modern, so it should be even better.
Harm's Way was decent as well. Protecting 2-toughness guys from Lightning Bolt and hitting your opponent in the face for 2, or killing a Goblin Guide, is very nice. With the number of 1-touhgness guys you're running, though, you might want to skip it.
Make sure to check out the Death and Taxes and GW Hatebears lists in case they have some stuff that might be useful to you. Things like Ethersworn Canonist and Judge's Familiar aren't the best beaters, but buying an extra turn can be enough to win a game that you'd otherwise lose.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Honor of the Pure is another card in serious consideration for the last slot, with Aether Vial (replacing the 2 Adventuring Gear and Ranger of Eos). I prefer it in token strategies, though, since in this deck you'll usually only be pumping another 2 or 3 creatures.
Brave the Elements as a 4-of might be excessive, but I think it's better to shave in games 2 and 3 rather than start off with 2-3. It's the kind of card you really want to be able to show your opponent game 1 so that they respect it games 2 and 3. Plus, it's basically a 1-mana Negate/Falter split card, so as long as you have some sort of board presence it's not a dead draw, and if you don't have a board presence it's not like topdecking a Bear was going to win you that game anyway.
I haven't had any experience building a landfall manabase, but I want to avoid running too many fetchlands and not enough fetchables (there are only 8 as is, and if I put in more fetchlands, I'd either have to take out Plains or up the land count). Plus Flagstones of Trokair and Ghost Quarter are functional fetchlands.
I think you're right about Adventuring Gear. I'm able to play Steppe Lynx because the cost of building the manabase around it is free since no other cards care about lands, and adding in weaker landfall cards because the manabase now supports it is backwards logic. I'm going to take them out, but I also need to figure out if the 2 Ranger of Eos should go with it.
In the future, I would probably go Boros, but for now I'm stuck with mono-White for quasi-budgetary reasons. Someday I'll be able to collect and keep cards of other colors, but it is not this day.
While Brimaz, King of Oreskos is undoubtedly a more powerful card on its own, I think Silverblade Paladin fits the deck better. This is a low-to-the-ground, turn-4-goldfish pure aggro deck (with some tempo elements instead of reach). I have a good amount of experience with Silverblade Paladin, and generally speaking if they kill Silverblade Paladin instead of the guy it was soulbonded with, that's usually good for you. As for needing other creatures in order to be good, that can really be said of the deck as a whole. I'm not trying to play a deck that plays individually powerful threats. It's much more of a sum-of-the-parts strategy, and it generally folds to removal.dec. I'm ok with this.
I will definitely keep these sideboard suggestions in mind. Kor Firewalker seems especially relevant in the current meta.
Finally, I had some good discussion with a bunch of the regulars in the D&T thread (and a bit in Hatebears) but ultimately concluded that aggro is in my blood. My initial build (with the Savannah Lions-esque Humans) ran Ethersworn Canonist as well as Grand Abolisher; I could see myself playing 2 each in place of the Adventuring Gear and Ranger of Eos.
Does 4 Flagstones of Trokair, 8 fetches, 8 Plains seem like a workable manabase? I don't have experience with landfall, so I'm curious. And if I take out Ghost Quarter, is Flagstones of Trokair still worth it?
Here are some additional card considerations
removal sunlance or dismember
Utility oblivion ring, bonds of faith, fiendhunter.
beaters Mirran Crusader, Silverblade Paladin
reach Angel of Jubilation, Hero of Bladehold
Dont know if this will fit your extreme aggro build, but it should give you a chance should the game to turn 5 and 6.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Daring Skyjek
4 Accorder Paladin
4 White Knight
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Path to Exile
3 Brave the Elements
Make adjustments based on meta and budget. You might also be able to cut a land or two from my list but idk I'm just too used to running 24 in this list, with fetches u could optimize.
EDIT: you could also squeeze in some number of paladin en-vecs into your list if burn is huge in your meta
Beyond those simple additions its missing one of the key elements of legacy WW builds... no board wipes. White being able to reset the game to turn one is one of its best strengths, especially after your opponent stabilizes turn 3/4. Without burn or interaction your worst matchups with be Tron, Affinity, and Pod which will all stabilize or threaten a win by turn 4.
@Meelman: Thanks for the suggestions! I originally had a list with Silverblade Paladin and Hero of Bladehold, but after extensive revision I've been much happier with a more hyper-aggro strategy rather than curve-out aggro. Dismember seems like a great card to board in in certain matchups, though.
@deadmarmon: Thanks for the suggestions! For now I've been sticking with a hyper-aggro dump-your-hand style, but Knights is a deck I've also been keeping my eye on if this fails spectacularly.
@Chr0me... Chr0m3... the third guy: I need to keep it mono-White for now due to sort-of budget reasons (the deal I have with my wife is I can hold on to 1 color as long as I sell off the other 4), but if I was going 2 color it would definitely be Boros. Path to Exile will be in the board for must-kill creatures, but with the build I'm going for, I plan to mostly ignore the opponent's board by swinging with 4/5 Steppe Lynx and 4/4 Champion of the Parish or swinging with 5 guys at the same time or simply Brave the Elements for unblockable. As for board wipes, I don't think this is the right deck for them. This is an extremely proactive turn 4 deck, and while having a reset button is useful if the opponent has managed to out-board presence me, by that point in the game I'm not going to have many resources to rebuild with anyway.
4 Student of Warfare
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 War Falcon
4 Dryad Militant
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Accorder Paladin
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Brave the Elements
3 Righteous Charge
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
8 Plains
This is my take on hyper aggro WW. Just flood with creatures and try to get there. I ran something like this in Standard a few years ago. It worked for one tournament, I took first, but it didnt work the following week. I'm not sure how it would fair week after week tbh. It sure is fast though.
It was only a 12-person tournament, so obviously I can't take too much away from this, but I did go 4-0, beating Abzan aggro, Grixis control, Burn, and I guess WURG Kiki-Pod? The games were generally super interesting, and unsurprisingly Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is the best card in the deck, but Brave the Elements was probably the MVP. Also, I may have been overestimating how bad the Burn matchup is since I beat it without Kor Firewalker. Turns out getting Champion of the Parish to a 4/4 is practically GG.
The deck played out exactly as I imagined it would when I put it together: there are a ton of decisions to be made, and every one of them matter, although the most interesting matchup was probably Burn. Game 3 I had a turn 1 Champion of the Parish, he plays a Vexing Devil (I take 4). My turn 2 I have 3 choices: play a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, swing for 2; play a Soldier of the Pantheon, swing for 2, leave up Brave the Elements; or play Soldier of the Pantheon and Student of Warfare, swing for 3. While I think Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is the correct play, and arguably obviously so, the other 2 lines also have their merits.
Lastly, 2 random things I learned that I didn't know before that I should have known:
Against Abzan aggro, opponent had a board of Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise. I have 2 Steppe Lynx, an Elite Vanguard, and a Figure of Destiny. I don't have land for the turn, so I swing with just Elite Vanguard and Figure of Destiny. I now know that it is correct to attack with the Steppe Lynxes anyway, since I immediately regretted not doing so when he Path to Exiled my Figure of Destiny, leaving 4 points of damage on the table.
Kor Firewalker triggers on ANY player casting a red spell, not just your opponent, so you actually gain life off of your own Figure of Destiny.
I've considered dropping the land count, as the predecessor to this deck played 16 land. However, that deck was also running Aether Vial which helps cheat on mana, and I actually think this deck wants the land. Making Steppe Lynx a 4/5 every turn is huge, you usually want to be playing multiple spells a turn, and you also need the mana to pump into Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny. If I cut land, they'd have to be fetches, and I really want to have 3 fetches in the first 4 turns for Steppe Lynx if possible. Sure, the deck can operate just fine on 1 land, but it really gets unfair when you have 3 land on turn 3.
I debated among Immortal Servitude, Return to the Ranks, and Proclamation of Rebirth as a post-sweeper mass reanimation spell. What I like about Immortal Servitude is that you don't have to worry about overextending (unless they're not putting your creatures into the yard, such as Anger of the Gods or Terminus, stuff like that). You can just dump your hand, let them die, and bring them all back for 4 mana. Return to the Ranks doesn't provide nearly the same rate (although getting Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and any sideboarded 2-drops back can be nice), and while the flexibility of forecasting Proclamation of Rebirth if you have the mana is nice, I think bringing back ALL your one-drops makes the extra mana on Immortal Servitude worth it. I think Return to the Ranks is better against decks packing a ton of 1-for-1 removal, but not sweepers.
As for Dryad Militant, I like him, and he makes sense in certain White aggro decks, but this deck isn't really in the market for more Savannah Lions. I already have Soldier of the Pantheon and Elite Vanguard, and they're really only there because they're Human. I also think this deck can't really take advantage of Dryad Militant's ability.
- I made a Red splash just for Norin The Wary which is just awesome in any build trying to abuse Champion of the Parrish
- I made a Black splash for Athreos, God of Passage for some insurance in case of a boardswipe or even targeted removal and in this deck its not unusual to see it being a creature so i think its worth the gamble. And secondly i also splashed for Bob, this seems good to me 'cause allows you to refill your hand and this deck has a very low curve so the damage isnt a thing to be worry.
In general i liked this deck and is fun to play with, it has multiple points in every game when you have to make a choice that will win or lose you the game specially in T2 and T3.
I apologize for my english its my second language
Tron
@mparodi3391: I'd love to see your decklist. Splashing other colors may become an option for me down the road, but for right now it's strictly mono-White for quasi-budget reasons. Plus Brave the Elements puts in good work in a format where the primary sweepers are damage-based red spells.
@mrproctornz: I couldn't agree more.
My only regret is not getting to play this deck more, as I have very limited time to play. I do tend to shuffle up and goldfish during my downtime, though, and the deck just feels sooooooo good.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/562814-wx-death-and-taxes]
I played this deck for a good 3 months. It's a tier 2 deck, but it's job is to attack the tier one decks. There was never a match-up that seemed unbeatable, and there is some games where your opponent gets locked out with things like; Turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, They tap our on their turn, and you turn 3 Leonin Arbiter into Ghost Quarter and essential Strip Mine their land (including basics!). You can also fill the board up really quick with AEther Vial. Turn 4 wins are possible just from the sheer amount of creatures you can pump out with Vial and flickering Blade splicer with Flickerwisp(which also can do insane things in this deck with vial), or Restoration Angel.
Edit: ughh sorry, didn't realize this was the deck creation sub. Feel free to ignore/delete this post.
Round 1: Scapeshift, Win 2-0
Not much to tell. Game 1 I curved out and killed him on turn 4. Game 2 could have gone either way and I was fortunate that my opponent drew quite poorly, but he also played around Brave the Elements (which I was leaving open every turn but didn't have) for 4 or 5 turns which gave me all the time I needed. Having 3 Honor of the Pures out was obviously good for me and turned his Obstinate Baloths into chump blockers.
MVP: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, with an honorable mention to Brave the Elements, which I neither drew in this match nor cast the entire tournament.
Round 2: Burn, Lose 2-1
This was an interesting but frustrating match, as in retrospect I cost myself the victory by being too conservative. Game 1 I cruised to victory, Game 2 he barely squeaked it out (through a turn 2 Kor Firewalker no less!). Game 3 I played too conservatively and was punished. I was stuck on 2 lands the whole game but was afraid of tapping out and getting my creatures burned (I had Brave the Elements in hand), so I never played 2 threats in a turn, and I also never activated Figure of Destiny either of the turns I had the opportunity to. Making Figure bigger on his end step would have given him a window to kill one of my guys, but in retrospect I should have gone for it since I should have realized the majority of his burn spells target players only. Plus, a burn spell used on my creature is a burn spell not pointed at my face. Instead, I attacked him down to 2, he cast Flames of the Blood Hand on end step, untapped and played 2 Bump in the Nights for exactsies.
MVP: Probably Thalia, Guardian of Thraben again, which is unsurprising since it's by far the best card in the deck, but it's especially good against Burn.
LVP: me.
Round 3: Burn, Win 2-0
Not competitive, and frankly nothing interesting to report. Game 2 saw me with a turn 2 Kor Firewalker followed by turn 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and that was that.
MVP: I'll say Kor Firewalker out of the board.
Round 4: R/G Tron, Win 2-1
This was also an interesting match, though it ended a bit anticlimactically. Game 1 my opponent was stuck on 1 mana, and like an idiot (and with my round 2 loss for being too conservative still fresh in my mind) I decided to go for it and dumped my hand to put lethal on the board. Naturally, he draws a land for the turn and casts a 5-for-1 Pyroclasm. I don't draw another creature the rest of the game, and concede after Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre comes down. Game 2 I should have lost. I was able to get Champion of the Parish out of Pyroclasm range on turn 2, and eventually had a 4/4 Champion of the Parish, Soldier of the Pantheon, Elite Vanguard, and 3/3 first striking Student of Warfare with my opponent at 8 life. Then he plays Wurmcoil Engine. I have a Disenchant and a Brave the Elements (my sideboard options for the matchup are basically nonexistent). Effectively game over. I swing with the team, and much to my surprise, he blocks the Student of Warfare. Disenchant on the Wurmcoil Engine before damage, I deal exactsies, and we go to Game 3. Unfortunately, Game 3 my opponent is stuck on 1 land again, and turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben followed by more missed land drops quickly ends the game.
MVP: Student of Warfare for secretly having Lure.
All in all I think 3-1 was a fair result, since I should have beaten Burn but also should have lost to Tron. I also feel like the deck underperformed, as I never got to cast Brave the Elements and only led off with turn 1 Champion of the Parish/Steppe Lynx 2 out of 10 games. Finally, after the bannings my sideboard really needs tweaking. 6 of the 15 cards never got sided in, and there were definitely matches where I could have used the extra slots.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Round 1: Amulet Combo, Lose 0-2
Game 1 I'm on the play and go Turn 1 Champion of the Parish, Turn 2 Soldier of the Pantheon, Mardu Woe-Reaper, Turn 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben... and it doesn't matter, because he combos out via Hive Mind/Pact of Negation through Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Game 2 I keep a slow hand I should have mulled, he eventually Primeval Titans me to death, and I feel sad.
Round 2: Merfolk, Win 2-0
This was against a new player, and there's really nothing to say. Game 2 even knowing I was on hyper-aggro she kept a 3 Military Intelligence (?????) hand and I rolled her over. I did win in style, though. She was at 11 and I swung for 10, and before damage Path to Exiled my 1/1 Student of Warfare to trigger Steppe Lynx for the extra damage I needed.
Round 3: Twin, Lose 2-0
Game 1 he basically trades 1-for-1 with me for forever, we eventually reach topdeck mode and I can't finish him off. Game 2 was more of the same, as he just had too much removal for me to deal with.
Round 4: Naya, Lose 2-1
Should have won this one, but back-to-back Bonfire of the Damneds in Game 3 trumped my 1 Brave the Elements.
A forgettable performance, but I kind of knew going in I wasn't in the right mindstate to do well, as I was operating on very little sleep all week and stressed out at work. I did figure out, however, that while moving Path to Exile into the main was the right call, I took out the wrong card, as I likely would have won 2 of my matches if I had Honor of the Pure in the deck. My reasoning for taking it out had been that it doesn't attack and is awful when you're rebuilding, but what I failed to take into account is that it is an excellent turn 3 play that increases your clock without committing more creatures to the board. I think the right card to take out is Boros Elite, since although it attacks, it was a pitifully underwhelming card all night long.