I'm surprised this group hasn't tried testing treasure cruise yet, if the plan is put an 3/x into play and tempo them out. Drawing 3 cards is huge to keep mid-ranged and combo from outlasting us.
That's next on the agenda! Hopefully testing it tonight.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
If you want to play treasure cruise you should try the 5c version. You want a ton of burn in a treasure cruise list, since it is just amazing, when you draw 2 burn spells of it and Tribal Flames is the best one. Maybe the 4c version burn packaged with 4 Bolt, 4 Boros Charm, 2 Helix is sufficient, but I doubt it.
I will start testing treasure cruise next weekend (first in a UWR shell, than the 4c version and than Domain, to get the maximum information) and I will report here, what I have learned.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have played some games now with a straight Urw Delving Delver Burn list (10 burn spells, 14 Creatures (4 Delver, 4 Monastery Swiftspear, 2 Snapcaster and 4 Young Pyromancer, since he is insane with this amount of cheap spells), 9 Counters, 11 draw spells (4 Probe, 4 Serum Vision, 3 Treasure Cruise), 16 lands (9 fetch, 5 shocks, 2 basics)). ATM I don't play any Paths, because I don't have the slots for it.
First think I noticed, drawing 3 cards is amazing and normally you just win afterwards.
Second, you can support 3 Delve cards without any problems. Due to the nature of this deck, it isn't uncommon to have 7-8 cards in the graveyard at turn 4. The next cruise generates on average another 3 cards (what I have seen), so you are the half of the required cards again to delve. And even a Ancestral Recall for 2 is insane, if you don't have the cards to exile. I think, you could even play more delve cards (like 2 Hooting Mandrills in the Counter-Cat list), but than you have to play more cantrips, like Sleight of Hands, which is awful. To mention is, that you (normally) don't draw all delve cards, so in an normal game, when you play like 4 delve cards, you will see 2, with 5 you will see 3 and you can cast 3 delve cards during a game. To have 2 delve cards or even more in your opening hand is crap, but that is a calculated risk then.
Third, Young Pyromancer is insane in this kind of deck. I had a game, where I raced an BW Token deck through an Anthem with only 1 Pyromancer (I generated like 15 tokens that game due to chained Cruises). I don't know, if he is better than Goyf, since they have the same idea (to finish a game), but he makes his job amazing.
Fourth, since I can't play Nacatl (no G in the deck) I switched them to Monastery Swiftspear and I wanted to test them. I don't know what to think about them. They are normally something like 3/4, but there are cases, which something like this isn't sufficient (against Goyf e.g.) or I can't get them so big. But regardless of these problems, I won with him on turn 3 several times (turn 1 delver, into flip, playing Switfspear, bump it twice (Probe, bolt) and attack for 6, next turn same thing, and kill the opp with burn), once on the play against tron (he showed me afterwards his hand with double engine and full tron) which was pretty insane. I have to test him furthermore, but I think in a 4c version, you should play Kitty instead, since a constant 3/3 is most of the times better than a 1/2 with variable stats.
Fifth, did I said, that drawing 3 cards is unfair?
Sixth, not playing Path mb hurts the Twin and Pod match-up. The BGx match-up felt pretty easy, but I doubt it that the percentage is more than 60/40 for us. Most of the times, you just race Aggro (burn, infect, boggles). I haven't yet played against UWr or other "control" decks, so I have to see what that match-up is like.
Seventh, the manabase is a little bit greedy, since I only play 16 lands with 8 fetches and I take a little bit damage over the game with this manabase (normally something like 6-8 damage). The deck needs 3 lands to operate perfectly, what I have seen. Due to the 8 cantripps and the 3 cruises it isn't that common, that I only end with 1-2 lands and even that isn't that big problem, since I have only 13 spells, which costs 2 (Helix, Charm, Snapcaster, Pyromancer, Remand). 1 land is more problematic, but that shouldn't happen that often. And on average I keep nearly every hand with 2 lands, even if the rest are only counter/burn. It isn't that uncommon to just burn the opponent from 16 down to 0, since you need on average only 5 burn spells.
Eighth, approximately I will switch to the 4c version next Monday/Sunday, than I will report again.
Ninth, did I mentioned it? Treasure Cruise is insane and everyone who doesn't test it in deck like this misses something. It just brakes the fair math-ups, since most of them want to out 1v1 you, but you draw suddenly 3 cards and the opponent can't. I don't know, if I would play Cruise in a Control deck, but I think the other delve card should qualify for this job.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Yeah, Cruise is busted. I can't see it not getting banned in Legacy, but it's definitely insane in this format too. Nice review. A big part of the reason I play this deck is for Cat+Goyf since I just love those guys but Swiftspear+Pyro seems awesome anyway. You don't want a couple Path over burn spells to deal with Twin/Finks? I feel like Finks is awesome against Swiftspear.
Regarding extra cantrips: try Thought Scour. Seriously amazing as an EOT Delve enabler when you don't feel like casting a counterspell.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Played ashtonkutcher's list last Tuesday at a small Modern event. It was so much fun to play. I went 2-1 beating Ad Nauseum, Burn and lost to Affinity. I think that I could have won that Affinity match but I wasn't drawing great hands against them.
I think I'll certainly be playing this list again next week.
Played ashtonkutcher's list last Tuesday at a small Modern event. It was so much fun to play. I went 2-1 beating Ad Nauseum, Burn and lost to Affinity. I think that I could have won that Affinity match but I wasn't drawing great hands against them.
I think I'll certainly be playing this list again next week.
Affinity's a good matchup, something like 75%. They do get nut draws though. (Less than us in this matchup, but still.)
I'm trying a single Dig Through Time in the SB for grindy matchups since I got a foil copy. Also experimenting some more with the counter/burn balance depending on Delve representation.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey guys, I'm sort of interested in building this deck but I have no Goyfs, should I run additional Mandrils (4?) in their place or is there another card like Lavamancer that is better in that creature slot?
Hey guys, I'm sort of interested in building this deck but I have no Goyfs, should I run additional Mandrils (4?) in their place or is there another card like Lavamancer that is better in that creature slot?
You need the most efficient creatures possible to make this build work, and Goyf knows no equal. Someone had an okay time with Hierarchs and no Goyfs on page 1, check him out. Far from an optimal build though! I've always wondered why people ever build budget versions of decks. Why not just play something fully-powered that you can afford and actually have a chance at real events? In lieu of Goyfs, I recommend a heavier stretch into white with Geist and more burn spells.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've always wondered why people ever build budget versions of decks. Why not just play something fully-powered that you can afford and actually have a chance at real events? In lieu of Goyfs, I recommend a heavier stretch into white with Geist and more burn spells.
I know you weren't specifically targeting me with that comment but, I already have a fully-powered deck it just doesn't include goyfs. I was interested in checking the deck out because I've got the entire deck lying around in a binder minus the $800 paywall.
I'm not totally sold on Geist since he's slower than most of the rest of the deck. A lot of UWR delver decks play Steppe Lynx could it be better to rock Lynx and the Tribal Flames package? Having 12 one drops leaves a lot more mana to play around with counters/removal.
I've always wondered why people ever build budget versions of decks. Why not just play something fully-powered that you can afford and actually have a chance at real events? In lieu of Goyfs, I recommend a heavier stretch into white with Geist and more burn spells.
I know you weren't specifically targeting me with that comment but, I already have a fully-powered deck it just doesn't include goyfs. I was interested in checking the deck out because I've got the entire deck lying around in a binder minus the $800 paywall.
I'm not totally sold on Geist since he's slower than most of the rest of the deck. A lot of UWR delver decks play Steppe Lynx could it be better to rock Lynx and the Tribal Flames package? Having 12 one drops leaves a lot more mana to play around with counters/removal.
Lynx sucks here, I've tried him; we want to go really low on lands. I'm just saying UWR versions with similar gameplans and Geist have seen success lately (see the list ToxicJOKER posted upthread). The whole reason for Green is Tarmogoyf (and, to a lesser extent, Wild Nacatl). Actually, we're splashing white in a red-blue-green deck for the Cat, and RUG Tempo is only Green for the Lhurgoyf. You're obviously welcome to try whatever you'd like, but expect the deck to perform $800 worse than it should.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I can't remember every match (it was 6 Rounds) but I played at least against following decks:
Jund (0-2, both games he survives with 1 life)
Affinity (0-2, both games were out of the box (mull to 5 still no land and only 1 Removal spell against a rather slow affinity start))
U Tron (2-1, in the first game I could race against 2 Wurmcoil Engines, but the Mindslaver was to much. He was on 32 and I on 2 life and I had 1 turn to kill him, but I could only deal 26 damage, after that there was the slaver lock online)
5c Domain Zoo ft. Cruise and Snapcaster (2-1, I had more removal/burn/draw in 2 games)
Summer Bloom deck aka Amulet of Vigor deck (2-0, first game he couldn't play the pact trigger (was a misplay from him) and in the second game I had enough Tempo to be faster than him (turn 4 win))
I can't remember, what the last match-up was, but I lost there.
Most of my loses (e.g. against affinity and Jund) can be explained due to misplays. This version of Delver plays pretty different compared to the 4c Goyf Delver. It is more like Aggro and not Control, but it can play the Control role pretty well too. The biggest problem of the deck was Lightning Bolt. Since the highest thoughnes is 2 (exception is a pumped Swiftspear) every thread can be bolted and this is very bad. In this list I missed something like Geist of Saint Traft, since he is a nice beater with hexproof. I even thought about playing Lightning Angel because of this reason. I think, that the angel is better in this list than Mantis Rider since you want a bolt proof creature and better than Restoration Angel since you want to swing immediately for 3. In general, haste is pretty amazing. Only few people think, that something can attack, if there is an empty board. I have to test, which high cmc Thread you want in this list and Will report than.
Some words about Treasure Cruise. It is by far the best card in the deck (it is even better then Delver) and nearly every game where I cast one I won (only exception was against Jund, where he gained 6 life via Huntmaster and Ooze and he still ended on 1 life). I played with 3 of them but I never ever had a problem with casting them. Even a Cruise for 2 Mana is still amazing. A good friend played UR Delver with 4 Cruises and he never had a problem of casting them, when he had the Cruises in his hand. I even Cruised 4 times against U Tron in the second game (had 2 and via Snapcaster I played them again). Cruise provides something that every Tempodeck needs in modern, pure CA. Most of the times you can just 1v1 them, but you have normally the worse top decks (e.g. Spell Pierce is mid to late game garbage). Cruise fuels you hand again and you can burn the opponent down or play more threads. Even if you draw something like 2 lands and a Pierce, it is also a good draw, since you have less lands in your deck after that. Without Cruise you would have drawn the next 3 turns 2 lands and a pierce and most of the times this isn't something you want to draw.
Some words about Monastery Swiftspear. This guy is still amazing. Most of the times, he swings for 2, but he can get pretty big pretty fast. The really important thing about him is, that he has haste. Haste provides something only few players expect, an attacking thread on an empty board. I won 1 game against 5c Zoo by casting the swiftspear on an empty board and attack immediately. Since he had no blockers and and mana open (he cruised) I could attack for lethal. Afterwards he showed me his hand with 2 Lightning Helix and a Tribal Flames which would just kill me. Also attacking for 1 each turn is fine, since you can burn the opponent easier to 0. Most opponents feared, that they can't block with a 2/2 or bigger because he could be pumped a few times (I killed a few Goyfs this way ).
Some words about Young Pyromancer. He is pretty decent in this deck and helps to attack through a Goyf. Furthermore, he produces over the game a ton of tokens. I don't know, how good he is in the 4c Goyf version, but in this 3c Version he was good, not insane but good. I have to test him further how good he is in this tempo style lists (before , I played him only in UR Delver, where he is an auto 4 off, since he is amazing there).
Some general thoughts about this deck. It makes a ton of fun to play with it. With Cruise there came a new card which is just broken in this deck type and pushes the deck to at least Tier 1.5 (in my opinion). Now, that I tested the URw Version sufficient, I will switch to the 4c version. I have to look, how I can play it without Goyfs but I have some ideas about this (see my next post, since it will be a replay to Eisenkrieger, who has the same problem (600€ is a little bit to much for me)).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: My UR Delver friend played Swerve and it was really, really great when he had it (was a 1 off (aka fun off)). I think, if you don't want to play bolt proof creatures, than you may want this card since it will redirect hopefully every removal card to your advantage (and it even wins against cryptics counter draw :D).
I have the same problem with Goyfs (600€ are a little bit to much). I would still run something like 4c or even 5c for Tribal Flames. You want G for Nacatl (one of the best 1 drops) and a heavy W splash for Geist, Angel or even Mantis Rider. Furthermore, you want to play a little bit more burn (something like 10 burn spells) because you want sufficient reach, when you can't attack with your creatures. Overall you could play something like this (something like this will I test in the next few weeks).
I have to test it, but I think, in this way it might be playable. I would even consider to kick a Removal spell for another Treasure Cruise (love this card) but this you have to test on your own, what you want.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Such expensive threats have no place in this deck, but let me at least say don't run Mantis Rider, ever, in this format. That the one extra mana for Lightning Angel is worth it to survive Bolts.
EDIT -- I actually want to stress this: don't splash Green if not for Goyfs. In other words, UR Delver is a awesome deck (that already has an extra Delver). If you want to play with Young Pyromancer (the next best thing you can do in Delver decks), you should probably drop Wild Nacatl altogether.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Hey Ashton
I've just picked up this deck, playing your list card for card in the primer. I gotta ask, how's the burn match up?
Not bad, actually. If there's a lot of Burn in your meta, run a third Helix in the MD (as I've recently started doing). It's OK to take some damage early on to stick a threat, very important to clock that deck. Other than that, let your lands come into play tapped, remove Eidolon when he shows up, and try to cast Helix as much as possible. Care to explain your sig, btw? My list runs 2 Treasure Cruise.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Oh haha. It's a running joke with my friends. Every time we get together, an argument breaks out about the validity of delve cards in a remand environment. I think that in a format that has such a quick ability to fill it's bin like modern, any delve card can be playable. They seem to think that the existence of remand makes delve a mechanic that is unplayable. I think they're wrong.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Monastery Swiftspear is most of the times worse than Wild Nacatl since the cat is constant a 3/3. I have to test a 4c non Goyf version and see myself, how "bad" it is (btw. I tested with Goyf and I know, how insane this card is in this deck).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Another option would be Urwb Delver when you have no goyfs, but I have no idea, how such a list would look like.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Monastery Swiftspear is most of the times worse than Wild Nacatl since the cat is constant a 3/3. I have to test a 4c non Goyf version and see myself, how "bad" it is (btw. I tested with Goyf and I know, how insane this card is in this deck).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Another option would be Urwb Delver when you have no goyfs, but I have no idea, how such a list would look like.
It's worse than Nacatl, but probably not worse than significantly injuring your manabase. Whether or not Swiftspear is worse than injuring your manabase to run Wild Nacatl AND Tarmogoyf AND Path to Exile is a CounterCat vs. UR Delver debate, but without the Lhurgoyf, I'd say you're much better off foregoing Green (and White) altogether.
Urwb sounds bad, too; you don't get Dark Confidant and Delve together, and you don't really get Dark Confidant and 4-color-Tempo-deck together, either. What other Black cards would you even want? Could have worked with Deathrite Shaman, but no point discussing that now.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Played against UWR (l), mono green (l), and amulet combo (w)last night. Uwr was such a close game, but he drew an untapped non shockland and attacked with colonnade for the win. Any suggestions on how to board against these decks.
All in all, im happy with the list. Nothing felt totally unwinnable, and any loses I think I can tag to my own inability to play the deck well, but it was my first time running it.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Awesome report. I love the Feed the Clan tech! Interesting take with the Vapor Snags. Against Rock decks I bring in a Dig Through Time and I already run a Mandrills main so that makes 4 awesome Delve spells against them. What are your thoughts on the streamlined sideboard? I like one-offs for diversity but yours looks pretty squared up.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Is there any reason to not run a breeding pool? There were a ton of games that fetching a breeding pool would open up way more lines for me. Im guessing it's because you want to be able to cast lightning helix off any 2 lands and breeding pool cant cast either half. Is that correct?
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
The reason for no Breeding Pool is pretty simple. Breeding Pool and Sacred Foundry (you want to play both, if you have Breeding Pool in your list, because if you start with breeding pool you want to fetch a sacred foundry for a 3/3 nacatl of 2 lands) are the worst combination of dual lands for this deck. You can't cast any of the WR spells and you can't path+bolt in one turn. Basically you can say, that you want the R and the W on separate lands.
@ashtonkutcher, I think, that B provides with Bob (great card, isn't that great anymore due to the delve cards), Discard (great against the new Jeskai Ascendency combo deck and other decks) and great SB cards (like Rakdos Charm) may be a reason to play this colour combination.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I think, that Dig through Time may be a little bit stronger than Cruise. I have to test it, but the UU hurts of Dig.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I kinda figured that was the case but I ju st wanted to be sure I wawasn't missing anything. Any particular way you prioritize your lands? Also, are there any matchups with this deck that are like 90% unwinnable.
Standard Mardu Midrange Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Alright, so lets say your commander is Riku of Two Reflections. Combo commander, to be sure, but lets push this into the realm of absurd. You cast Palinchron and do your Riku thing to make infinite mana because we're going to need it. Forget about your extra Palinchron tokens. A million flying 4/5s is boring. So now you cast Enter the Infinite, because drawing your deck is important. Follow it up with a Obstinate Familiar because not decking yourself is equally important. Laboratory Maniac could work here too, but we're gonna go some more levels deep. Cast a Greater Good because we want a tasteful sac outlet. Follow this up with Parallel Lives, Doubling Season,Copy Enchantment, Clever Impersonator, Mycosynth Latice, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Copy Artifact giving you 6 double token effects. Here's where it gets fun now. Cast a Reef Worm. Sac it to greater good and get 256 Fish, which you sac to get 65,536 whales, which you sac to get 16,777,216 Krakens. Are we done yet? Nope! Cast Thromok the Insatiable, devouring all your krakens to make a 281,474,976,710,656/281,474,976,710,656 Thromok. Where do we go from here though? Let your opponent cast Death Mutation on him! Why, that's 7.20575940x10^16 tokens! Good thing we have Body Double to make another Thromok the Insatiable who will be a 5.19229686x10^33/5.19229686x10^33! Seems big enough, but not for us! Since we're red anyways, lets cast a Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, and a Fire Servant! Now it's time to Fling your guy, dealing a spicy 4.15383749x10^34 damage to your opponent. To put that in perspective, there are an estimated 3x10^23 stars in the known universe. You dealt more damage than there are stars. That'll give your opponent something to think about. PROTIP: Dodge Spellskite decks
Is there any reason to not run a breeding pool? There were a ton of games that fetching a breeding pool would open up way more lines for me. Im guessing it's because you want to be able to cast lightning helix off any 2 lands and breeding pool cant cast either half. Is that correct?
That's right. There's actually a whole section in the primer on Shocks. You prioritize the pair you grab based on the cards you have in hand, so you can optimize your mana spending by playing spells as quickly as possible.
@ashtonkutcher, I think, that B provides with Bob (great card, isn't that great anymore due to the delve cards), Discard (great against the new Jeskai Ascendency combo deck and other decks) and great SB cards (like Rakdos Charm) may be a reason to play this colour combination.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I think, that Dig through Time may be a little bit stronger than Cruise. I have to test it, but the UU hurts of Dig.
You're talking about a totally different deck. No blue means no counter; you're Jund aggro with a white splash for Cat at that point. On Dig, I'm running one in the side and like it so far. Nice to have in matchups that go longer (i.e. vs. Control or Midrange).
I've been considering different options for those matchups since we frequently get stuck with a few dead Fetches in the lategame. Right now I'm on a single Faithless Looting in the sideboard, which can also cycle through a dead Spell Pierce. Also relevant that you can cast it twice during a game and play it from the grave after Thought Scour. I'd try a Quagnoth if he costed 5, but 6 is too steep in my build (only 6 lands tap for mana, so a single Tectonic Edge would make him uncastable).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
That's next on the agenda! Hopefully testing it tonight.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I will start testing treasure cruise next weekend (first in a UWR shell, than the 4c version and than Domain, to get the maximum information) and I will report here, what I have learned.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
First think I noticed, drawing 3 cards is amazing and normally you just win afterwards.
Second, you can support 3 Delve cards without any problems. Due to the nature of this deck, it isn't uncommon to have 7-8 cards in the graveyard at turn 4. The next cruise generates on average another 3 cards (what I have seen), so you are the half of the required cards again to delve. And even a Ancestral Recall for 2 is insane, if you don't have the cards to exile. I think, you could even play more delve cards (like 2 Hooting Mandrills in the Counter-Cat list), but than you have to play more cantrips, like Sleight of Hands, which is awful. To mention is, that you (normally) don't draw all delve cards, so in an normal game, when you play like 4 delve cards, you will see 2, with 5 you will see 3 and you can cast 3 delve cards during a game. To have 2 delve cards or even more in your opening hand is crap, but that is a calculated risk then.
Third, Young Pyromancer is insane in this kind of deck. I had a game, where I raced an BW Token deck through an Anthem with only 1 Pyromancer (I generated like 15 tokens that game due to chained Cruises). I don't know, if he is better than Goyf, since they have the same idea (to finish a game), but he makes his job amazing.
Fourth, since I can't play Nacatl (no G in the deck) I switched them to Monastery Swiftspear and I wanted to test them. I don't know what to think about them. They are normally something like 3/4, but there are cases, which something like this isn't sufficient (against Goyf e.g.) or I can't get them so big. But regardless of these problems, I won with him on turn 3 several times (turn 1 delver, into flip, playing Switfspear, bump it twice (Probe, bolt) and attack for 6, next turn same thing, and kill the opp with burn), once on the play against tron (he showed me afterwards his hand with double engine and full tron) which was pretty insane. I have to test him furthermore, but I think in a 4c version, you should play Kitty instead, since a constant 3/3 is most of the times better than a 1/2 with variable stats.
Fifth, did I said, that drawing 3 cards is unfair?
Sixth, not playing Path mb hurts the Twin and Pod match-up. The BGx match-up felt pretty easy, but I doubt it that the percentage is more than 60/40 for us. Most of the times, you just race Aggro (burn, infect, boggles). I haven't yet played against UWr or other "control" decks, so I have to see what that match-up is like.
Seventh, the manabase is a little bit greedy, since I only play 16 lands with 8 fetches and I take a little bit damage over the game with this manabase (normally something like 6-8 damage). The deck needs 3 lands to operate perfectly, what I have seen. Due to the 8 cantripps and the 3 cruises it isn't that common, that I only end with 1-2 lands and even that isn't that big problem, since I have only 13 spells, which costs 2 (Helix, Charm, Snapcaster, Pyromancer, Remand). 1 land is more problematic, but that shouldn't happen that often. And on average I keep nearly every hand with 2 lands, even if the rest are only counter/burn. It isn't that uncommon to just burn the opponent from 16 down to 0, since you need on average only 5 burn spells.
Eighth, approximately I will switch to the 4c version next Monday/Sunday, than I will report again.
Ninth, did I mentioned it? Treasure Cruise is insane and everyone who doesn't test it in deck like this misses something. It just brakes the fair math-ups, since most of them want to out 1v1 you, but you draw suddenly 3 cards and the opponent can't. I don't know, if I would play Cruise in a Control deck, but I think the other delve card should qualify for this job.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Regarding extra cantrips: try Thought Scour. Seriously amazing as an EOT Delve enabler when you don't feel like casting a counterspell.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I think I'll certainly be playing this list again next week.
Treasure Cruise is so much fun to play with!
I'm trying a single Dig Through Time in the SB for grindy matchups since I got a foil copy. Also experimenting some more with the counter/burn balance depending on Delve representation.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I know you weren't specifically targeting me with that comment but, I already have a fully-powered deck it just doesn't include goyfs. I was interested in checking the deck out because I've got the entire deck lying around in a binder minus the $800 paywall.
I'm not totally sold on Geist since he's slower than most of the rest of the deck. A lot of UWR delver decks play Steppe Lynx could it be better to rock Lynx and the Tribal Flames package? Having 12 one drops leaves a lot more mana to play around with counters/removal.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
On Saturday I played on a 52 player tournament with my URw Delving Delver version. I played the following list:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
1 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Plains
//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Treasure Cruise
//Removal/Burn
2 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
//Counter
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Path to Exile
2 Wear // Tear
2 Boros Charm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
I can't remember every match (it was 6 Rounds) but I played at least against following decks:
Jund (0-2, both games he survives with 1 life)
Affinity (0-2, both games were out of the box (mull to 5 still no land and only 1 Removal spell against a rather slow affinity start))
U Tron (2-1, in the first game I could race against 2 Wurmcoil Engines, but the Mindslaver was to much. He was on 32 and I on 2 life and I had 1 turn to kill him, but I could only deal 26 damage, after that there was the slaver lock online)
5c Domain Zoo ft. Cruise and Snapcaster (2-1, I had more removal/burn/draw in 2 games)
Summer Bloom deck aka Amulet of Vigor deck (2-0, first game he couldn't play the pact trigger (was a misplay from him) and in the second game I had enough Tempo to be faster than him (turn 4 win))
I can't remember, what the last match-up was, but I lost there.
Most of my loses (e.g. against affinity and Jund) can be explained due to misplays. This version of Delver plays pretty different compared to the 4c Goyf Delver. It is more like Aggro and not Control, but it can play the Control role pretty well too. The biggest problem of the deck was Lightning Bolt. Since the highest thoughnes is 2 (exception is a pumped Swiftspear) every thread can be bolted and this is very bad. In this list I missed something like Geist of Saint Traft, since he is a nice beater with hexproof. I even thought about playing Lightning Angel because of this reason. I think, that the angel is better in this list than Mantis Rider since you want a bolt proof creature and better than Restoration Angel since you want to swing immediately for 3. In general, haste is pretty amazing. Only few people think, that something can attack, if there is an empty board. I have to test, which high cmc Thread you want in this list and Will report than.
Some words about Treasure Cruise. It is by far the best card in the deck (it is even better then Delver) and nearly every game where I cast one I won (only exception was against Jund, where he gained 6 life via Huntmaster and Ooze and he still ended on 1 life). I played with 3 of them but I never ever had a problem with casting them. Even a Cruise for 2 Mana is still amazing. A good friend played UR Delver with 4 Cruises and he never had a problem of casting them, when he had the Cruises in his hand. I even Cruised 4 times against U Tron in the second game (had 2 and via Snapcaster I played them again). Cruise provides something that every Tempodeck needs in modern, pure CA. Most of the times you can just 1v1 them, but you have normally the worse top decks (e.g. Spell Pierce is mid to late game garbage). Cruise fuels you hand again and you can burn the opponent down or play more threads. Even if you draw something like 2 lands and a Pierce, it is also a good draw, since you have less lands in your deck after that. Without Cruise you would have drawn the next 3 turns 2 lands and a pierce and most of the times this isn't something you want to draw.
Some words about Monastery Swiftspear. This guy is still amazing. Most of the times, he swings for 2, but he can get pretty big pretty fast. The really important thing about him is, that he has haste. Haste provides something only few players expect, an attacking thread on an empty board. I won 1 game against 5c Zoo by casting the swiftspear on an empty board and attack immediately. Since he had no blockers and and mana open (he cruised) I could attack for lethal. Afterwards he showed me his hand with 2 Lightning Helix and a Tribal Flames which would just kill me. Also attacking for 1 each turn is fine, since you can burn the opponent easier to 0. Most opponents feared, that they can't block with a 2/2 or bigger because he could be pumped a few times (I killed a few Goyfs this way ).
Some words about Young Pyromancer. He is pretty decent in this deck and helps to attack through a Goyf. Furthermore, he produces over the game a ton of tokens. I don't know, how good he is in the 4c Goyf version, but in this 3c Version he was good, not insane but good. I have to test him further how good he is in this tempo style lists (before , I played him only in UR Delver, where he is an auto 4 off, since he is amazing there).
Some general thoughts about this deck. It makes a ton of fun to play with it. With Cruise there came a new card which is just broken in this deck type and pushes the deck to at least Tier 1.5 (in my opinion). Now, that I tested the URw Version sufficient, I will switch to the 4c version. I have to look, how I can play it without Goyfs but I have some ideas about this (see my next post, since it will be a replay to Eisenkrieger, who has the same problem (600€ is a little bit to much for me)).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: My UR Delver friend played Swerve and it was really, really great when he had it (was a 1 off (aka fun off)). I think, if you don't want to play bolt proof creatures, than you may want this card since it will redirect hopefully every removal card to your advantage (and it even wins against cryptics counter draw :D).
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I have the same problem with Goyfs (600€ are a little bit to much). I would still run something like 4c or even 5c for Tribal Flames. You want G for Nacatl (one of the best 1 drops) and a heavy W splash for Geist, Angel or even Mantis Rider. Furthermore, you want to play a little bit more burn (something like 10 burn spells) because you want sufficient reach, when you can't attack with your creatures. Overall you could play something like this (something like this will I test in the next few weeks).
18 Island (filler)
//Creature
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Lighting Angel
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Boros Charm
8 Counters (filler)
//Draw
4 Serum Visions
2 Treasure Cruise
I have to test it, but I think, in this way it might be playable. I would even consider to kick a Removal spell for another Treasure Cruise (love this card) but this you have to test on your own, what you want.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
EDIT -- I actually want to stress this: don't splash Green if not for Goyfs. In other words, UR Delver is a awesome deck (that already has an extra Delver). If you want to play with Young Pyromancer (the next best thing you can do in Delver decks), you should probably drop Wild Nacatl altogether.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've just picked up this deck, playing your list card for card in the primer. I gotta ask, how's the burn match up?
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Another option would be Urwb Delver when you have no goyfs, but I have no idea, how such a list would look like.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Urwb sounds bad, too; you don't get Dark Confidant and Delve together, and you don't really get Dark Confidant and 4-color-Tempo-deck together, either. What other Black cards would you even want? Could have worked with Deathrite Shaman, but no point discussing that now.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
All in all, im happy with the list. Nothing felt totally unwinnable, and any loses I think I can tag to my own inability to play the deck well, but it was my first time running it.
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
@ashtonkutcher, I think, that B provides with Bob (great card, isn't that great anymore due to the delve cards), Discard (great against the new Jeskai Ascendency combo deck and other decks) and great SB cards (like Rakdos Charm) may be a reason to play this colour combination.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I think, that Dig through Time may be a little bit stronger than Cruise. I have to test it, but the UU hurts of Dig.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Standard Mardu Midrange
Modern 4 Colour Delver, Naya Midrange
CommanderSidisi 1v1, Sliver Overlord, Intet the Dreamer, Mayael the Anima (shameless plug http://youtu.be/4zu4QRvGSo8)
What matchups are unwinnable BTW? You're talking about a totally different deck. No blue means no counter; you're Jund aggro with a white splash for Cat at that point. On Dig, I'm running one in the side and like it so far. Nice to have in matchups that go longer (i.e. vs. Control or Midrange).
I've been considering different options for those matchups since we frequently get stuck with a few dead Fetches in the lategame. Right now I'm on a single Faithless Looting in the sideboard, which can also cycle through a dead Spell Pierce. Also relevant that you can cast it twice during a game and play it from the grave after Thought Scour. I'd try a Quagnoth if he costed 5, but 6 is too steep in my build (only 6 lands tap for mana, so a single Tectonic Edge would make him uncastable).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy