I really do like your updated list - not including the 4th snapcaster because you would need a 19th land sounds reasonable if you want to stay as low to the ground as possible. Nevertheless I think you want 6 spells that are able to remove toughness 4+ creatures
Have you considered deflecting palm against tron / titan-bloom / burn / goryos vengence? I think it should be a good SB card against a lot of the fringe decks. Regarding lingering souls: I do think that you are able to overpower souls but it is often such a tempo loss - I often had my Goyf chump-blocked 4 turns in a row back when I was playing counter cat and loosing on tempo against a regular midrange deck is usually loosing the match because they have more bombs to draw to. As you are running probes have you considered switching 1 nacatl and a spell for 2 hooting mandrills?
Philip
Palm is very interesting and versatile, but none of those matchups are difficult. I think it's more important to focus on the tougher MUs. I've been loving the Valorous Stance; tried 2 and it seemed like too many, I'd sometimes draw both and end up holding one forever. I'd only want to bring one in against Twin, for instance, so I think 1 in the SB is fine for now. I'm also running 4 Snapcaster Mage again and I really like them. 3 Probe, 2 Remand makes up for the 19th land. VERY happy to have Remand back BTW; while I don't think it currently deserves a spot in RUG Delver (the Threshy version I've been running with 4 Apes) since that deck can't beat a Rhino, it's fantastic in Counter-Cat. It really helps Control matchups; being able to cast Wild Nacatl to an empty board and then Remand him when he baits a Cryptic Command is huge. I'm hesitant to run Mandrills right now given the prevalence of 4/5 creatures at my LGS (Tasigurs and Rhinos everywhere), but I don't think cards like Forked Bolt are the answer against Lingering Souls. They're really narrow (bad against everything else in the Junk deck barring Goyf wars, which don't usually happen between Decay and Path) and they only answer half the card. Electrolyze would be the best option in this MU since it draws you a card to maybe break even with the other Souls tokens, but it's much worse than Forked Bolt against x/1 decks with Hierarch or Signal Pest since it costs 3.
The Twin matchup seems highly favorable BTW. Played a bunch of matches against it last night and narrowly lost one. That their tappers cost 3 lets us Remand them into oblivion. Mutagenic Growth is great in this MU since Lightning Bolt is all they really have to ease our pressure, and Goyf ends them if you play around Spell Snare.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Primer update for post-Cruise. Also changed the deck name to avoid any confusion with the Channel Fireball archetype, but I'm open to changing back. Not sure I'm allowed to change the thread name.
Round 1 vs. Norin the Wary (2-0): Dude is all over the place, missing his Draw Step draws (?!) and forgetting to phase out Norin constantly. G1 I take with fast pressure, even though he gains a lot of life off Norin triggers; he brings me down to 4 but it's not enough. G2 I Pyroclasm his board (and my Aberration) before resolving a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, which cleans up the game after my opponent attacks with Legion Loyalist and a Soul Warden, mistakenly thinking Loyalist gave her First Strike. I block the sister with an unflipped Delver and Goyf puts the game away in two turns.
Round 2 vs. GW Hatebears (2-0): Used to be a tougher matchup, but now I fetch very aggressively to beat Leonin Arbiter. Opener with perfect mana, Mana Leak, Nacatl, and Delver on the play is too much for him. G2 I leave the Probes in over my counterspells, all of which I cut for removal and Scepter. A T1 Probe shows me that he has a lot of good cards, including a Thalia which I path as a T1 Wild Nacatl deals damage. No Aether Vial and I'm able to more or less tempo him out. I Path his Stirring Wildwood and Stance his Loxodon Smiter after a turn of him mistakenly trying to race me by animating the land and coming in for 7 (bringing me to 8). At the end of the game he reveals two Vials from his hand and I show him an Ancient Grudge.
Round 3 vs. UWR Control (2-1): This guy's been playing UWR Control forever. I always tell him it's bad but he never listens. G1 I take after some heavy grinding. I Bolt his Monastery Mentors (he runs 2) and he has no answer. Near the end of the game, I cast Mandrills and he Remands it; I cast Mana Leak and he taps his last two lands to Remand it again. I play it the next turn and it resolves, but he bounces it with Cryptic when I attack. The following turn, I Probe him to see Clique, a land, and Snapcaster on an empty board. I cast Mandrills and pass. He draws and pass. He only has 8 lands untappedand is at 3 so I move to Start of Combat; he does Snap + Cryptic but I Snap + Bolt him in response. G2 he just grinds me out; I stupidly keep an otherwise decent-looking hand with no threats and it takes me way too long to find one despite casting 3 Serum Visions in the first few turns. Lesson learned. G3 I keep what I think is a pretty good 7 of Wild Nacatl, Stomping Ground, Misty Rainforest, Tarmogoyf x2, Gitaxian Probe, Lightning Helix. I Probe him on the play to see Island, Colonnade, Rest in Peace, Cryptic Command, Lightning Bolt, Remand, and Electrolyze. I draw another land off the Probe, cast Nacatl with Stomping Ground, and pass. RIP + Lightning Bolt is really scary since I have no counterspells and these two cards completely lock me out of threats. He fails to find Red and plays Colonnade. I draw a fourth land and fetch an untapped Hallowed Fountain so he thinks I have... anything. Attack for 3 and pass. He plays Island; I draw a THIRD TARMOGOYF, attack, and pass. I don't play a land because I want my opponent to think I have a hand of 6 answers. He draws, plays a third land, taps out for Monastery Mentor, and passes to me; I Helix the Mentor on his End Step, untap, draw a fourth Goyf, swing for 3, play Temple Garden tapped, and pass it back. My Hatebears friend is watching the game now, on my side, and almost gives my bluff away by saying aloud that he doesn't understand my technique after I make a comment about how awesome my hand is. Opponent doesn't get it or make his 4th land drop and I topdeck + cast a second Nacatl. He blocks the attacking one with a flashed in Snapcaster Mage, then goes to 6 with Cryptic up for an untapped Hallowed Fountain. I topdeck... Mana Leak. I Leak the Cryptic for the win and reveal my totally useless hand of 4 Goyfs and two Misty Rainforest. Even when I had access to 4 lands, I didn't want to cast Goyf into Remand and potentially help my opponent draw a Red source.
Taking the same list to a GPT tomorrow morning but I may run the Snap if I can find it. Haven't decided yet.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So it was a PPTQ, not a GPT. Ended up two spots short of the Top 8, going 4-2, but the deck performed very well. I lost the first round to two straight games of being stuck on one land vs. Affinity, and another to... again, bad draws vs. Affinity. Here's the list I played:
Round 1 vs. Affinity (0-2): I keep a one-lander with Wild Nacatl, Path to Exile, two Serum Visions, Arid Mesa, and two counterspells. My opponent is a local who's usually on Tron, but last time I played against him he was on Ad Nauseam combo; the hand is fine against either of those decks. I lose the die roll and see land, Drum, Ornithopter, Vault Skirge. I fetch Steam Vents, so I can Serum Visions + Wild Nacatl next turn, and cast Visions. No lands. Next turn he slams Steel Overseer and I wish I'd gotten the Fountain so I could Path it. Draw, Visions again, still no lands. He runs me over with the Overseer and by the time I find a second land to Path it he's got Signal Pest and a small army of flying 3/3s. G2 I mull a seven with 0 lands into a six of Visions, Island, Probe, Bolt, Path, Tarmogoyf. I Probe, then Visions, then never find another land. Master of Etherium gets me this time.
Round 2 vs. Bogles (2-0): I know he's on Bogles because after my speedy loss last round I walked around to see what people were playing. He'd lost to a reanimated Elesh Norn from UW Gifts. I Probe him and see the only threat in his hand is a Ledgewalker, so I cast Delver and Leak it turn 2. He lands a Bogle the next turn and tries to race Delver. Noticing my short clock, he sacrifices Canopy, but accidentally pays with W mana. That leaves him with GW to cast the Coronet he draws, and when his face falls I know he's kicking himself. I Snap-Snare the Coronet next turn and Bolt him out. G2 I follow a T1 Delver with a T2 Isochron Scepter, imprinting Lightning Helix. On my next turn I Helix his Dryad Arbor and he taps it for G in response to sacrifice Canopy, failing to realize he was putting himself down to one land until they both hit the Graveyard. He almost races me with a 5/x Bogle but when I Spell Pierce his Unflinching Courage my new Tarmogoyf goes to 5/6 and eats the attacking Bogle. An Umbra falls off and the Bogle lives, but my opponent can't beat my 9-points-a-turn clock from Scepter and Delver.
Round 3 vs. Assault Loam (2-1): Wild Nacatl gets him down to 11, but he burns it out with a Seismic Assault and stabilizes with Life from the Loam. G2 my Delver takes him to 9 before he kills it. In the meantime, he plants a pair of 2/3 Goyfs which I neglect to Leak because I have more faith in my own clock. They start coming in for 4, but once Delver dies I Path them away. A new Delver and a Tarmogoyf finish the job. G3 he mulligans to six and I land my own pair of Goyfs. He tries to deal with them but ends up running out of cards and I have one left. He reveals a hand with two Anger of the Gods and I show him Mutagenic Growth and Spell Pierce.
Round 4 vs. Bloom Titan (2-0): This was a tough match, as he got early Titans both games. I thought he'd be on Bogles, as this player usually is, but luckily I keep the same kinds of hands against both decks. G1 I lose the roll and open a seven with Spell Snare for the potential turn 2 Summer Bloom, but I cast Delver of Secrets instead and he runs out a Titan. I Path it and start attacking, but Delver doesn't flip for 2 turns. I land a Wild Nacatl when I find a third land to up the pressure while holding up counterspells. He has time to Pact for another Titan, which I Mana Leak, but he answers with a Pact of Negation. On his next Upkeep he pays 9 and attacks with Vigilance, but doesn't give the Titan Double Strike (either he doesn't know the card's in the deck or he just didn't have it). Instead, he gets Simic Growth Chamber and Tolaria West, bouncing the latter. He brings me to 7 and doesn't block my attackers. Next turn I Snap Path him in response to Transmute pre-combat; he finds a Chalice, which I Spell Pierce (he only has one mana available). The Lightning Bolt in my hand kills him after another attack. G2 I mulligan a gorgeous do-nothing hand of Probe, Visions, perfect mana, and counterspells for a risky but powerful one-lander with Wild Nacatl, Path, Bolt, Negate, and Flashfreeze. He mulligans twice and opens with a tapped land. I rip Arid Mesa off the top and play Wild Nacatl. He finds an Amulet with Ancient Stirrings and plays it. I draw a second Wild Nacatl and figure he probably doesn't have Summer Bloom + Titan off a double mull, so I play it instead of holding up Flashfreeze and pass. Turns out he does have it, plus a second Amulet, and the Titan takes me from 14 to 6. I have Path and my threats beat him up while he tries to cast another Titan, which meets that Flashfreeze. Took SB notes for this one: +1 Flashfreeze, +1 Grudge, +2 Destructive Revelry, +1 Valorous Stance, +2 Negate, -3 Lightning Helix, -4 Serum Visions. I board out the Visions against Titan and Bogles because I only have one-two turns to set up with threats and after that I have to hold up counterspells to keep each deck off Titan/Coronet respectively. This means I have to aggressively mulligan into hands with lands and threats, but it's worth it.
Round 5 vs. Affinity (0-2): I lose the roll and mulligan into a no-threat hand with a ton of answers, knowing he's playing Affinity. Some friends who drew into Top 8 are watching and find it hilarious that I counter/burn everything relevant. Eventually I plant a Tarmogoyf to an empty board but he rips a pair of Etched Champions off the top and starts attacking with more than a Vault Skirge. We call a Judge when my opponent mistakenly Ensouls his Champion and I untap and draw; the Ensoul hits the Grave, pumping my Tarmogoyf, but it's not enough to beat the Champions. G2 I mistakenly keep a hand of Visions, Leak, and lands, and get flooded into oblivion without ever seeing a hate card.
Round 6 vs. UR Twin (2-1): I win the roll and start hitting him with Wild Nacatl, but I don't have an answer for that turn 4 Splinter Twin. He shows me his hand: 2 other Twins and a Remand. He correctly says he had no reason not to go for it despite my untapped lands. G2 two Nacatls bring him to 1 as I Remand/Leak everything that does anything; a postcombat Lightning Bolt seals the deal in just under six minutes. G3 I turn 1 Visions off a Steam Vents, turn 2 Delver and pass with a Misty Rainforest. He casts Blood Moon and I stare at the dead Mana Leak in my hand and kick myself for forgetting the Revelries in my SB. I fetch a basic Forest anyway, which my opponent raises his eyebrows at. I have Path, Helices, and a Huntmaster in my hand, and I know that if he deals with the Delver and I fetch an Island instead, I'll be able to counter a few things but I'll rely on drawing Delvers to seal the deal. I don't consider this a viable plan (too slow, dies to Bolts and Pestermites), so I go for the Forest hoping I can race him with fatties or Bolt some Pestermites. Sure enough he Bolts the Delver, and I draw Tarmogoyf and start beating him up. I draw a third Land and another Huntmaster and he casts Anger + Lightning Bolt to kill Tarmogoyf, but I Mutagenic Growth with my Forest to save him. Goyf brings him to 5, getting tapped and chumped by a couple Exarchs as my opponent tries desperately to find Splinter Twin, before meeting a topdecked Engineered Explosives. I rip a Scalding Tarn and cast Huntmaster, which resolves but dies to Lightning Bolt. My opponent blocks the Wolf token, which I thereafter realize he must do me since if I do have Lightning Bolt for the Exarch I could just burn his face after Wolf comes in. I play the second Huntmaster postcombat, untap with it and flip to ping Exarch and my opponent, and receive a concession. Opponent checks his next card to find... Splinter Twin.
Overall I was very happy with the deck. I'm not entirely sure about the fourth Snapcaster Mage but it wasn't clunky at all and I rarely boarded it out, so he might be fine. The Probes were really insane all day. I'd walked around the room when I got there and only seen two Burn decks, which is why I left Hallow out of my SB; I also wasn't expecting any Bogles due to all the Junk so Spellskite got the cut. Somehow never faced off against a Junk deck, though. I think 1 Mutagenic Growth SB is enough since the card is so narrow. Once opponents see it, they play around it, which does a lot of work for me if I don't have any more.
I really love the SB for this deck; during the event, and most events I bring it to, I end up using every card there and often bring in something like 8 cards per matchup. The options in 4 colors are so specific and versatile (Destructive Revelry, Scepter + anything, Pyroclasm, Huntmaster...). When all the cards do so much you want many of them in most MUs, and G2/3 I just become a hate machine, perfectly disrupting my opponent in the best way possible: either by removing creatures with a loaded removal suite or countering everything with pressure on the table and hardly any Burn in the deck. So basically, I become a dedicated Thresh deck or a dedicated Zoo deck. Since both these strategies attack in such unique ways, opponents often have a lot of trouble; nobody has an equal matchup against both the cheap creatures + removal deck and the cheap creatures + counterspells deck.
I may go to a spring of PTQs next week and I'm thinking of bringing a slightly tuned version of this list depending on how the meta shapes up. The combination of 8 Delvers + Path to Exile is really good right now I think. I don't have any data from this event on it, but based on my online testing with RUG Delver, Huntmaster is very, very strong against BGx.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I believe the necessity of the 4th Snapcaster Mage is really dependant on the expected metagame. I suggest you analyze your matchups and ask yourself for each of them if a 4th copy is useful compared to having another card occupying that slot. It is my opinion that in a metagame where you expect a lot of grindier matchups, that 4th Snapcaster Mage is useful, but against fast aggro matchups, I would use that slot for an extra copy of a removal spell or countermagic.
In the case of last weekend's pptq, correct me if I'm wrong, but there were a lot of midrange decks (abzan mainly) present, myself included (played Kibler's Abzan Midrange). So I believe the 4th Snapcaster was a good call.
but based on my online testing with RUG Delver, Huntmaster is very, very strong against BGx.
i appreciate your enthusiasm, but i think you could be off the mark on this particular call.
as a 4-drop, played in the mid-late stages of the game, huntmaster of the fells has to contend directly with siege rhino when paired against Junk decks (and let's face it, most are running 4x).
huntmaster can't attack into or block rhino without dying. the token is good for a single block, but trample still gets through. the damage from flipping huntmaster won't kill rhino, and even flipped the ravager of the fells still gets owned.
the lifegain is ok, and the token makes the card average-to-playable against liliana of the veil.... but still.... it's not a winning prospect against junk/abzan/whatever flavour of GBx is the biggest right now.
Polukranos is decent as a 4-drop. so is chameleon colossus, or even mirran crusader as a 3-drop if you want to get freaky. they tangle with the right cards and can apply pressure in key matchups.
but..... if i was to be brutally honest, i don't think this deck's ideal currency is to be trading 4-drops with other decks. tempo loss and not being able to hold up counters is a real thing. 1, 2 and potentially 3 drops are where it's at.
All those cards you mentioned are much harder to cast than Huntmaster in this deck. The idea isn't to chump a Siege Rhino with him, the idea is to win the grind war. We have Path, Stance, Goyf, and Combust to deal with resolved Siege Rhinos.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
All those cards you mentioned are much harder to cast than Huntmaster in this deck. The idea isn't to chump a Siege Rhino with him, the idea is to win the grind war. We have Path, Stance, Goyf, and Combust to deal with resolved Siege Rhinos.
i wouldn't ever side in combust against Junk. and GG shouldn't be any harder than RG unless something weird is happening with your manabase, or you only run basics.
anyway, as i pointed out, i don't really think any of those creatures at the 4-drop spot are where this deck wants to be. i just cited them as better options than the huntmaster himself.
The Kibler list has a ton of targets for combust (liege, rhino, finks, voice + token, smiter,...) but celestial purge is still a card if you need more outs to rhino and liliana.
Philip
that list was a metagame call mostly just for the protour. you won't really see it crop up again if Twin or any other combo deck makes a splash, as kibler's deck is incredibly weak against them, being basically just "play creatures to win" in essence. it works great against abzan decks because of loxodon smiter and wiltleaf liege blanking their discard (and as we know, the discard spells are the only thing that allows junk to be competitive in modern. otherwise it'd get roflstomped by every single control/combo deck out there)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
All those cards you mentioned are much harder to cast than Huntmaster in this deck. The idea isn't to chump a Siege Rhino with him, the idea is to win the grind war. We have Path, Stance, Goyf, and Combust to deal with resolved Siege Rhinos.
i wouldn't ever side in combust against Junk. and GG shouldn't be any harder than RG unless something weird is happening with your manabase, or you only run basics.
Maybe you should take a look at the manabase. The appeal of Huntmaster's manacost is any four lands in the deck will cast him. That's just not the case with double Green. You can't cast Polukranos off Steam Vents, Temple Garden, Hallowed Fountain, Island for instance (not rare). I often just fetch one Green source. There's nothing "weird" about the manabase; it's actually been tinkered with extensively to find the ideal land spread (check the Primer).
I get that it can be fun to make blanket statements like "I would never bring in Combust against BGx" or "GG is the same as RG" but in this case you're just showcasing your inexperience with this build. Combust is a card that was chosen for the SB specifically because it interacts in a meaningful way with a card that can present problems for the deck (Siege Rhino) in addition to dealing with Twin, Colonnades, etc. It's fine that you personally don't want it against BGx but I actually put it in my SB because it solves one of the issues I run into (Stirring Wildwood, Rhino, Wilt-Leaf, Smiter, random Angels, etc. - basically, cards that block Wild Nacatl/Delver of Secrets that slip through Mana Leak).
I'm not trying to defend my choice here, since I know it's correct. I'd just like to know the motivation behind posts like the one you just made when it's clear you don't really know what you're talking about. Are you posting because you're interested in the archetype? In that case, wouldn't you test it out and find out what problems you run into? And build a SB that addresses those problems? That's what I do anyway.
@Celestial Purge - I think Valorous Stance is better for this job since it's more flexible. Combust is there for the reasons I stated above, and Purge doesn't hit a lot of those targets. Granted, Stance does, but it can also meet a Dispel from Twin, and that's a deal-breaker for me.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
With 8 powerful one-drops I don't know if there's a good reason not to include some counterspells MB since they're so insane when you're ahead on the board (and you frequently are in the first couple turns). I also think we want 25 Instants/Sorceries for Delver; maybe cut a Snapcaster Mage if you don't want to lose a land, but IMO 19 with 4 Visions is where you want to be in Tribal lists (see a more detailed writeup on land configurations for Tribal builds in the Primer). Crypt over Watery and other basics over Island is possibly wrong since you want to be spending that third land playing Serum Visions a lot of the time while spending your other mana on Boros Charm etc., but maybe not. I think there are too many Basics here, too.
Personally I think Tribal Flames in the SB and Leak/Remand MB would work better here since otherwise we're just a weaker Tribal Zoo deck G1 vs. Combo/Tron/etc. (decks in which the counterspells are very important and the removal not so much). Your plan vs. non-interactive decks becomes just to burn them out before they put together their pieces, which means you basically auto-lose to otherwise favorable matchups like Bogles.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This looks a lot better to me. I like a minimum of 3 one-mana counterspells but it's a matter of preference. Other than that all the choices depend on your meta. There's no arguing against the raw power of Tribal Flames Try it out and let me know how it goes >:D
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Stormbreath is clearly the better one here. I prefer Huntmaster since it costs 4. With the Dragon, you're giving up Liliana-proof for Path-proof, and they often run more Liliana than Path. But Dragon is a faster clock and he barrels through whatever defense they've built up right away. I think it's a preference call.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
hey guys looking for a new deck to pilot ive been playing zoo for the past 8-10 months now and i love it however i decided i wanted to play something with the same aggro style but with counter magic and came across this list/thread. one quick question does geist not fit in any of these list?
What do you want to cut for Geist? If you're thinking of cutting Goyf, I'm not sure Nacatl alone is worth the Green splash and you're better off with Jeskai Delver. If you want to cut Delver, just play Zoo. Either way, if you want to play an aggressive deck with countermagic, tapping out on turn 3 generally isn't the best line. You're better off holding up Mana Leak while you clock with a guy you landed two turns ago.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I didn't mean let's add him and cut goyf I would never do that goyf is that much better I was simply wonderi if there was any list runnin him as I'm a fan of him in my tribal deck that is all just a general question.
Delver necessitates you max out at 16 Creatures, so if you want Delver x Cat x Goyf you don't really have spots for Geist (since Snapcaster is basically a necessity in post-ban Blue decks).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
My list seems good in my testing, but I felt like burn and affinity were the would be the worst matchups, since this deck starts the game at 14 life. Hence the sideboard. I just really want to find a way to fit 2 more ancient grudge in my SB but I think destructive revelry is more important.
Now card choices:
I don't have goyfs, so I'm running Seeker of the Way. It's tested alright, and I guess it helps shore up the weak burn matchup I think.
Jeskai Charm vs. Boros Charm vs. Electrolyze. I don't know what is better here. Boros charm did seem at first glance to be the best, but all 3 clauses of Jeskai charm seem surprisingly relevant. The mana seems a little tough tho, so I thought about Electrolyze. Electrolyze just seems like a really good all around card in my opinion, so I may want to run that. Does anybody have testing between the three of these?
Vapor Snag vs. Valorous Stance vs. Path to Exile. I don't like path very much in this deck, because the extra land gives them a HUGE tempo gain, and I want to really be disrupting their tempo with this deck. But at the same time, it is the best removal in modern... I figured Vapor Snag is just better most of the time, since all I want to do is delay them until they die, and vapor snag is a good way to delay them AND get a little extra damage in. Valorous Stance is just good protection for my creatures, as well as removal for stuff like Spellskite or Siege Rhino or Goyf or Deceiver Exarch.
My manabase is also a little wonky I think with the fetches, but all my Mistys and Tarns are in use elsewhere and I only have 3 Flooded Strand. This is working out alright though.
I've mostly been testing against combo decks, but the list seems really good. I have yet to lose to Twin, Storm, or Infect.
Responses are greatly appreciated!
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"The truth may be out there, but the lies are in your head."
Would you mind helping me with my SB for my current counter-cat build? I want to field it in the following days and would appreciate your help because you have extensive knowledge with this deck
Which leaves me with 7 SB slots (still needing approx. 3 anti-affinity cards and some burn hate). My personal experience would lead me into the following direction for the remaining SB slots:
I am looking forward to your feedback - I REALLY want to dust off those nacatls and tribal flames
Philip
Edit: I am tinkering around with 3 siege rhinos +1 overgrown tomb out of the board - what do you think about this? It is a good card against BGx and against burn (being resiliant against eidolon).
I'm not big on set-in-stone sideboards that aren't transformational because every meta (and player) is different, so what works for me might not work as well for you. But I'll try:
Other than your core spells, I like 2 Revelry/1 Grudge against Affinity. Grudge is really good and you shouldn't leave it out. I also like 1-2 Pyroclasm, which comes in against them and against a host of other aggressive strategies. Hallow is way better than Heroes Remembered, which is dead a lot of the time against Burn, even in your opener. Hallow is guaranteed to counter 2 Burn spells and often does even more (if you cast it on a Searing Blaze, you essentially countered 4 Bolts for one mana). It seems like you prefer SBD, but Huntmaster is way better in this deck. Costing 4 instead of 5 is huge when only 6 of your lands even produce mana, not to mention SBD is fairly narrow (crushing BGx and that's about it) while Huntmaster comes in against tons of aggressive decks and Burn as well.
As for the Rhinos + Tomb, that's 4 slots. 4 SLOTS!!!!! Huntmaster is just better and he doesn't even hurt your mana as much.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Thanks man. I do have snapcasters, but I did not think they would work very well with Hooting Mandrills. I know that it's not impossible to run delve cards and snapcaster at the same time, but I just did not want potentially dead cards in my list. Especially when I'm only running the 4 bolt for burn (currently) I didn't think snapcaster would be worth it. Also, that generally uses more mana. I haven't had any mana issues as of yet, but running snapcaster, as usually a 3 drop or more could warrant having an extra land like how you suggested. And I just feel like I would rather have more spells than lands and snapcasters. Of course, I'll test it with your suggestion now, but that was my reasoning. Oh, and I don't have geists either, but I could. Maybe I'll test those instead of mandrills.
Also, replacing the charms with lightning helixes does seem like a very good idea. I just wasn't sure because my feeling is that game 1 will be a loss to burn no matter what, even with helixes. Hence 4 feed the clan. Thinking about it now, Dragon Claw is probably better. I just hate losing to burn and affinity so I loaded my board with hate for those. I honestly thought that most of my other matchups were pretty good or even, because there's not much that can beat a early, fast clock with disruption. Is the BG/X matchup that bad? I know lingering souls is good against this deck, but that's what the counterspells are for. The rest of the deck just seems too slow to really interact. Also, there's not too much BG/X in my meta so I don't have to worry about it too much. Either way, extra removal in the board seems useful. Taking out the helixes could clear up some space for that.
What do you think of a SB of
2 Spell Snare
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Dragon Claw (I REALLY don't want to lost to burn)
2 Path to Exile
1 Valorous Stance
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Electrickery (seems good against Lingering Souls and stuff like V Clique, Bob, Young Pyromancer as well as Affinity)
Or maybe Forked Bolt is better. But I do like the instant speed of Electrickery...
But again, thanks man. I'll be switching out those charms for helixes for sure.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The truth may be out there, but the lies are in your head."
Just remember that Huntmaster can walk away with games vs. BGx (/lots of decks) that Rhino just can't. He's a burst of value but he won't win you the game outright; they can always board stall him etc. Huntmaster eats board stalls alive, you just pour all your energy into flipping him back and forth and it's over.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This looks fine to me, but I'm really against 19 lands in this deck. As long as you make your first two drops, you either get to 4 naturally or you just win. That said, you're not running any Gitaxian Probe, which I think is wrong. While it's bad against Burn, it's great against every other deck; it's fine to start most games at 12 when you're as aggressive as we are. Pumping Goyf is good too. 4 Helix is a good idea. I hate Engineered Explosives in this deck; way too mana-intensive. I do like the third Revelry over Grudge, though.
I took the deck to a 60-man Face to Face Modern event last Monday and didn't have time to do a tournament report, but I put one in this post. First, the list I played:
Round 1 vs. Mono-Red Burn (2-0): G1 I have a turn 1 Nacatl. He plays Mountain and passes; I get an untapped Steam Vents and Leak his Bolt during Combat. Turn 3 I have Delver and Nacatl with a Bolt for his Swiftspear, and turn 4 I have Goyf and Bolt-Snap-Bolt. He's can't tangle with that kind of aggression. I end up dropping to 6 life. Game 2 he also brings me to 6, but I have double Helix for his Grim Lavamancer and face. Flashfreeze and Negate in hand make me play more of a control game. I Snap-Leak his Moon and beat him down with the 2/1 until he gets to 5, and then a third Lightning Helix seals it up.
Plan:
-1 Path to Exile
-2 Boros Charm
-2 Remand
-3 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Mutagenic Growth
+1 Negate
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Flashfreeze
Round 2 vs. Mardu Burn (0-2): Game 1 he has way too many Eidolons an closes me out with a topdecked Boros Charm for exactly lethal after I deal with them. Game 2 I make the mistake of holding all my countermagic in hand, wanting to snag something nice, when I don't have pressure on the board; he's Bolting me etc. on my End Step and I'm letting them all resolve and finally lose with a hand full of permission. Lesson learned. His Molten Rain on my Stomping Ground sets me back a good amount; I have a Fountain and an Island and can't cast my Goyfs. A fourth Helix and some one-mana counterspells would help this matchup enormously; maybe more than a single Spell Snare or some in the SB?
Plan:
See Round 1.
Round 3 vs. UR Storm (2-0): Counter-Cat is made to beat up on decks like these. Game 1 I have Wild Nacatl into Tarmogoyf for speedy beats and he never gets to turn on his Pyromancer Ascension. I throw my Bolts at him on the End Step. I see a Fountain so I mistakenly think he's on UWR Value Storm (turns out it was just a splash for SB tech), so I board incorrectly. Game 2 he's stuck on 2 lands as I beat him up with a Delver. I Bolt his Electromancers and Pierce his Ascensions. He eventually makes some land drops (my clock isn't ultra-damaging) but I have Remand, Leak, and Flashfreeze for his Past in Flames. Very fun to let them Storm off with a couple rituals and then to counter the spell that keeps them going (generally a PiF or a Manamorphose). Most of the removal comes out in this matchup for countermagic, making us nigh impossible to beat games 2 and 3. Revelry isn't just there for Pyromancer Ascension; I've seen Blood Moon from Storm decks and didn't want to lose to it.
Round 4 vs. UR Twin (2-1): Another easy matchup, maybe even laughably so. I've been playing a Jund-colored brew lately and Twin has really been a tug-of-war, so plowing them with this list was really refreshing. Didn't take notes but Game 1 he just never found a guy. Had Splinter Twin in hand the whole game (I was Probing him). He got the combo Game 2. He tried to force it through open mana again in game 3 but I Valorous Stanced his Exarch, which was a good laugh (he had to read it). G3 was pretty grindy, but even Batterskull didn't do anything (too slow, I could just Path it and come in for more damage).
Won't be playing this tonight, but I had a blast. I'm also teaching my friend Affinity and have been doing a ton of games with her, and it seems like the matchup is highly in our favor. Moving forward, I think only one Pyroclasm is enough, since Affinity is already favorable and it doesn't even do much against them after a few turns. It's only really good against Tier 2 and 3 strategies (BW Tokens, Elves, Company maybe, etc.). I actually have 1 copy in my Cockatrice list (which I update frequently) but I kind of threw the deck together last minute and went with 2, which I shouldn't have (didn't bring them in once). Spell Snare and a fourth Helix would help a lot with Burn. It's something like a 50-50 matchup as-is, but 50-50 isn't good enough for me. I used to run a Rending Volley when it came out but cut it because Twin is so easy to beat already. Maybe 3 Huntmasters is correct; games 2 and 3 make it pretty easy to get to 4 mana, and after that he's just ridiculous. Could help a lot with the Junk matchup too, which I'm worried about. If we do end up with extra SB spaces after some tuning, I'd really like to include more Mutagenic Growth. The card is Mental Misstep with upside against Lightning Bolt decks and covers one the holes in our gameplan - if we lose all our early threats, we're usually dead. Huntmaster does this too, of course, by giving us something to ramp into with those enemy Paths, but it can't hurt to have more of that in the deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Mana Leak is really strong vs. Junk since it hits Siege Rhino and other hard-to-kill threats (you generally want to save your Paths for after the Leaks run out when possible). Their gameplan is to disrupt you and then to commit to the board, so you likely won't need the Paths until much later anyway. Tribal Flames might be a better MB card than Valorous Stance, at least depending on the meta. Flames kills all the stuff in Junk that you'd want to kill with Stance, and the Twin matchup is already so good that we don't need Stance there anyway. What else is the card for? Other than that Flames has the huge advantage of going to the face. I think if you're on the Tribal Flames version you should run 4 in the main and cut Stance from the 75 entirely for more specific sideboard answers.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The Twin matchup seems highly favorable BTW. Played a bunch of matches against it last night and narrowly lost one. That their tappers cost 3 lets us Remand them into oblivion. Mutagenic Growth is great in this MU since Lightning Bolt is all they really have to ease our pressure, and Goyf ends them if you play around Spell Snare.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Went 3-0 tonight with my list above, -1 Boros Charm and +1 Hooting Mandrills. I wanted to run a 4th Snapcaster Mage instead but I couldn't find my other one.
Round 2 vs. GW Hatebears (2-0): Used to be a tougher matchup, but now I fetch very aggressively to beat Leonin Arbiter. Opener with perfect mana, Mana Leak, Nacatl, and Delver on the play is too much for him. G2 I leave the Probes in over my counterspells, all of which I cut for removal and Scepter. A T1 Probe shows me that he has a lot of good cards, including a Thalia which I path as a T1 Wild Nacatl deals damage. No Aether Vial and I'm able to more or less tempo him out. I Path his Stirring Wildwood and Stance his Loxodon Smiter after a turn of him mistakenly trying to race me by animating the land and coming in for 7 (bringing me to 8). At the end of the game he reveals two Vials from his hand and I show him an Ancient Grudge.
Round 3 vs. UWR Control (2-1): This guy's been playing UWR Control forever. I always tell him it's bad but he never listens. G1 I take after some heavy grinding. I Bolt his Monastery Mentors (he runs 2) and he has no answer. Near the end of the game, I cast Mandrills and he Remands it; I cast Mana Leak and he taps his last two lands to Remand it again. I play it the next turn and it resolves, but he bounces it with Cryptic when I attack. The following turn, I Probe him to see Clique, a land, and Snapcaster on an empty board. I cast Mandrills and pass. He draws and pass. He only has 8 lands untappedand is at 3 so I move to Start of Combat; he does Snap + Cryptic but I Snap + Bolt him in response. G2 he just grinds me out; I stupidly keep an otherwise decent-looking hand with no threats and it takes me way too long to find one despite casting 3 Serum Visions in the first few turns. Lesson learned. G3 I keep what I think is a pretty good 7 of Wild Nacatl, Stomping Ground, Misty Rainforest, Tarmogoyf x2, Gitaxian Probe, Lightning Helix. I Probe him on the play to see Island, Colonnade, Rest in Peace, Cryptic Command, Lightning Bolt, Remand, and Electrolyze. I draw another land off the Probe, cast Nacatl with Stomping Ground, and pass. RIP + Lightning Bolt is really scary since I have no counterspells and these two cards completely lock me out of threats. He fails to find Red and plays Colonnade. I draw a fourth land and fetch an untapped Hallowed Fountain so he thinks I have... anything. Attack for 3 and pass. He plays Island; I draw a THIRD TARMOGOYF, attack, and pass. I don't play a land because I want my opponent to think I have a hand of 6 answers. He draws, plays a third land, taps out for Monastery Mentor, and passes to me; I Helix the Mentor on his End Step, untap, draw a fourth Goyf, swing for 3, play Temple Garden tapped, and pass it back. My Hatebears friend is watching the game now, on my side, and almost gives my bluff away by saying aloud that he doesn't understand my technique after I make a comment about how awesome my hand is. Opponent doesn't get it or make his 4th land drop and I topdeck + cast a second Nacatl. He blocks the attacking one with a flashed in Snapcaster Mage, then goes to 6 with Cryptic up for an untapped Hallowed Fountain. I topdeck... Mana Leak. I Leak the Cryptic for the win and reveal my totally useless hand of 4 Goyfs and two Misty Rainforest. Even when I had access to 4 lands, I didn't want to cast Goyf into Remand and potentially help my opponent draw a Red source.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Island
Creature (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
Sorcery (7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Negate
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Flashfreeze
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Combust
1 Spell Pierce
1 Valorous Stance
1 Isochron Scepter
Round 2 vs. Bogles (2-0): I know he's on Bogles because after my speedy loss last round I walked around to see what people were playing. He'd lost to a reanimated Elesh Norn from UW Gifts. I Probe him and see the only threat in his hand is a Ledgewalker, so I cast Delver and Leak it turn 2. He lands a Bogle the next turn and tries to race Delver. Noticing my short clock, he sacrifices Canopy, but accidentally pays with W mana. That leaves him with GW to cast the Coronet he draws, and when his face falls I know he's kicking himself. I Snap-Snare the Coronet next turn and Bolt him out. G2 I follow a T1 Delver with a T2 Isochron Scepter, imprinting Lightning Helix. On my next turn I Helix his Dryad Arbor and he taps it for G in response to sacrifice Canopy, failing to realize he was putting himself down to one land until they both hit the Graveyard. He almost races me with a 5/x Bogle but when I Spell Pierce his Unflinching Courage my new Tarmogoyf goes to 5/6 and eats the attacking Bogle. An Umbra falls off and the Bogle lives, but my opponent can't beat my 9-points-a-turn clock from Scepter and Delver.
Round 3 vs. Assault Loam (2-1): Wild Nacatl gets him down to 11, but he burns it out with a Seismic Assault and stabilizes with Life from the Loam. G2 my Delver takes him to 9 before he kills it. In the meantime, he plants a pair of 2/3 Goyfs which I neglect to Leak because I have more faith in my own clock. They start coming in for 4, but once Delver dies I Path them away. A new Delver and a Tarmogoyf finish the job. G3 he mulligans to six and I land my own pair of Goyfs. He tries to deal with them but ends up running out of cards and I have one left. He reveals a hand with two Anger of the Gods and I show him Mutagenic Growth and Spell Pierce.
Round 4 vs. Bloom Titan (2-0): This was a tough match, as he got early Titans both games. I thought he'd be on Bogles, as this player usually is, but luckily I keep the same kinds of hands against both decks. G1 I lose the roll and open a seven with Spell Snare for the potential turn 2 Summer Bloom, but I cast Delver of Secrets instead and he runs out a Titan. I Path it and start attacking, but Delver doesn't flip for 2 turns. I land a Wild Nacatl when I find a third land to up the pressure while holding up counterspells. He has time to Pact for another Titan, which I Mana Leak, but he answers with a Pact of Negation. On his next Upkeep he pays 9 and attacks with Vigilance, but doesn't give the Titan Double Strike (either he doesn't know the card's in the deck or he just didn't have it). Instead, he gets Simic Growth Chamber and Tolaria West, bouncing the latter. He brings me to 7 and doesn't block my attackers. Next turn I Snap Path him in response to Transmute pre-combat; he finds a Chalice, which I Spell Pierce (he only has one mana available). The Lightning Bolt in my hand kills him after another attack. G2 I mulligan a gorgeous do-nothing hand of Probe, Visions, perfect mana, and counterspells for a risky but powerful one-lander with Wild Nacatl, Path, Bolt, Negate, and Flashfreeze. He mulligans twice and opens with a tapped land. I rip Arid Mesa off the top and play Wild Nacatl. He finds an Amulet with Ancient Stirrings and plays it. I draw a second Wild Nacatl and figure he probably doesn't have Summer Bloom + Titan off a double mull, so I play it instead of holding up Flashfreeze and pass. Turns out he does have it, plus a second Amulet, and the Titan takes me from 14 to 6. I have Path and my threats beat him up while he tries to cast another Titan, which meets that Flashfreeze. Took SB notes for this one: +1 Flashfreeze, +1 Grudge, +2 Destructive Revelry, +1 Valorous Stance, +2 Negate, -3 Lightning Helix, -4 Serum Visions. I board out the Visions against Titan and Bogles because I only have one-two turns to set up with threats and after that I have to hold up counterspells to keep each deck off Titan/Coronet respectively. This means I have to aggressively mulligan into hands with lands and threats, but it's worth it.
Round 5 vs. Affinity (0-2): I lose the roll and mulligan into a no-threat hand with a ton of answers, knowing he's playing Affinity. Some friends who drew into Top 8 are watching and find it hilarious that I counter/burn everything relevant. Eventually I plant a Tarmogoyf to an empty board but he rips a pair of Etched Champions off the top and starts attacking with more than a Vault Skirge. We call a Judge when my opponent mistakenly Ensouls his Champion and I untap and draw; the Ensoul hits the Grave, pumping my Tarmogoyf, but it's not enough to beat the Champions. G2 I mistakenly keep a hand of Visions, Leak, and lands, and get flooded into oblivion without ever seeing a hate card.
Round 6 vs. UR Twin (2-1): I win the roll and start hitting him with Wild Nacatl, but I don't have an answer for that turn 4 Splinter Twin. He shows me his hand: 2 other Twins and a Remand. He correctly says he had no reason not to go for it despite my untapped lands. G2 two Nacatls bring him to 1 as I Remand/Leak everything that does anything; a postcombat Lightning Bolt seals the deal in just under six minutes. G3 I turn 1 Visions off a Steam Vents, turn 2 Delver and pass with a Misty Rainforest. He casts Blood Moon and I stare at the dead Mana Leak in my hand and kick myself for forgetting the Revelries in my SB. I fetch a basic Forest anyway, which my opponent raises his eyebrows at. I have Path, Helices, and a Huntmaster in my hand, and I know that if he deals with the Delver and I fetch an Island instead, I'll be able to counter a few things but I'll rely on drawing Delvers to seal the deal. I don't consider this a viable plan (too slow, dies to Bolts and Pestermites), so I go for the Forest hoping I can race him with fatties or Bolt some Pestermites. Sure enough he Bolts the Delver, and I draw Tarmogoyf and start beating him up. I draw a third Land and another Huntmaster and he casts Anger + Lightning Bolt to kill Tarmogoyf, but I Mutagenic Growth with my Forest to save him. Goyf brings him to 5, getting tapped and chumped by a couple Exarchs as my opponent tries desperately to find Splinter Twin, before meeting a topdecked Engineered Explosives. I rip a Scalding Tarn and cast Huntmaster, which resolves but dies to Lightning Bolt. My opponent blocks the Wolf token, which I thereafter realize he must do me since if I do have Lightning Bolt for the Exarch I could just burn his face after Wolf comes in. I play the second Huntmaster postcombat, untap with it and flip to ping Exarch and my opponent, and receive a concession. Opponent checks his next card to find... Splinter Twin.
I really love the SB for this deck; during the event, and most events I bring it to, I end up using every card there and often bring in something like 8 cards per matchup. The options in 4 colors are so specific and versatile (Destructive Revelry, Scepter + anything, Pyroclasm, Huntmaster...). When all the cards do so much you want many of them in most MUs, and G2/3 I just become a hate machine, perfectly disrupting my opponent in the best way possible: either by removing creatures with a loaded removal suite or countering everything with pressure on the table and hardly any Burn in the deck. So basically, I become a dedicated Thresh deck or a dedicated Zoo deck. Since both these strategies attack in such unique ways, opponents often have a lot of trouble; nobody has an equal matchup against both the cheap creatures + removal deck and the cheap creatures + counterspells deck.
I may go to a spring of PTQs next week and I'm thinking of bringing a slightly tuned version of this list depending on how the meta shapes up. The combination of 8 Delvers + Path to Exile is really good right now I think. I don't have any data from this event on it, but based on my online testing with RUG Delver, Huntmaster is very, very strong against BGx.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I believe the necessity of the 4th Snapcaster Mage is really dependant on the expected metagame. I suggest you analyze your matchups and ask yourself for each of them if a 4th copy is useful compared to having another card occupying that slot. It is my opinion that in a metagame where you expect a lot of grindier matchups, that 4th Snapcaster Mage is useful, but against fast aggro matchups, I would use that slot for an extra copy of a removal spell or countermagic.
In the case of last weekend's pptq, correct me if I'm wrong, but there were a lot of midrange decks (abzan mainly) present, myself included (played Kibler's Abzan Midrange). So I believe the 4th Snapcaster was a good call.
i appreciate your enthusiasm, but i think you could be off the mark on this particular call.
as a 4-drop, played in the mid-late stages of the game, huntmaster of the fells has to contend directly with siege rhino when paired against Junk decks (and let's face it, most are running 4x).
huntmaster can't attack into or block rhino without dying. the token is good for a single block, but trample still gets through. the damage from flipping huntmaster won't kill rhino, and even flipped the ravager of the fells still gets owned.
the lifegain is ok, and the token makes the card average-to-playable against liliana of the veil.... but still.... it's not a winning prospect against junk/abzan/whatever flavour of GBx is the biggest right now.
Polukranos is decent as a 4-drop. so is chameleon colossus, or even mirran crusader as a 3-drop if you want to get freaky. they tangle with the right cards and can apply pressure in key matchups.
but..... if i was to be brutally honest, i don't think this deck's ideal currency is to be trading 4-drops with other decks. tempo loss and not being able to hold up counters is a real thing. 1, 2 and potentially 3 drops are where it's at.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
i wouldn't ever side in combust against Junk. and GG shouldn't be any harder than RG unless something weird is happening with your manabase, or you only run basics.
anyway, as i pointed out, i don't really think any of those creatures at the 4-drop spot are where this deck wants to be. i just cited them as better options than the huntmaster himself.
that list was a metagame call mostly just for the protour. you won't really see it crop up again if Twin or any other combo deck makes a splash, as kibler's deck is incredibly weak against them, being basically just "play creatures to win" in essence. it works great against abzan decks because of loxodon smiter and wiltleaf liege blanking their discard (and as we know, the discard spells are the only thing that allows junk to be competitive in modern. otherwise it'd get roflstomped by every single control/combo deck out there)
I get that it can be fun to make blanket statements like "I would never bring in Combust against BGx" or "GG is the same as RG" but in this case you're just showcasing your inexperience with this build. Combust is a card that was chosen for the SB specifically because it interacts in a meaningful way with a card that can present problems for the deck (Siege Rhino) in addition to dealing with Twin, Colonnades, etc. It's fine that you personally don't want it against BGx but I actually put it in my SB because it solves one of the issues I run into (Stirring Wildwood, Rhino, Wilt-Leaf, Smiter, random Angels, etc. - basically, cards that block Wild Nacatl/Delver of Secrets that slip through Mana Leak).
I'm not trying to defend my choice here, since I know it's correct. I'd just like to know the motivation behind posts like the one you just made when it's clear you don't really know what you're talking about. Are you posting because you're interested in the archetype? In that case, wouldn't you test it out and find out what problems you run into? And build a SB that addresses those problems? That's what I do anyway.
@Celestial Purge - I think Valorous Stance is better for this job since it's more flexible. Combust is there for the reasons I stated above, and Purge doesn't hit a lot of those targets. Granted, Stance does, but it can also meet a Dispel from Twin, and that's a deal-breaker for me.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Personally I think Tribal Flames in the SB and Leak/Remand MB would work better here since otherwise we're just a weaker Tribal Zoo deck G1 vs. Combo/Tron/etc. (decks in which the counterspells are very important and the removal not so much). Your plan vs. non-interactive decks becomes just to burn them out before they put together their pieces, which means you basically auto-lose to otherwise favorable matchups like Bogles.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Here's my list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hooting Mandrills
3 Seeker of the Way
Spells (27)(Sorted by function for convenience)
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Path to Exile
2 Valorous Stance
2 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Jeskai Charm
1 Boros Charm
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Feed the Clan
4 Lightning Helix
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Spell Snare
My list seems good in my testing, but I felt like burn and affinity were the would be the worst matchups, since this deck starts the game at 14 life. Hence the sideboard. I just really want to find a way to fit 2 more ancient grudge in my SB but I think destructive revelry is more important.
Now card choices:
I don't have goyfs, so I'm running Seeker of the Way. It's tested alright, and I guess it helps shore up the weak burn matchup I think.
Jeskai Charm vs. Boros Charm vs. Electrolyze. I don't know what is better here. Boros charm did seem at first glance to be the best, but all 3 clauses of Jeskai charm seem surprisingly relevant. The mana seems a little tough tho, so I thought about Electrolyze. Electrolyze just seems like a really good all around card in my opinion, so I may want to run that. Does anybody have testing between the three of these?
Vapor Snag vs. Valorous Stance vs. Path to Exile. I don't like path very much in this deck, because the extra land gives them a HUGE tempo gain, and I want to really be disrupting their tempo with this deck. But at the same time, it is the best removal in modern... I figured Vapor Snag is just better most of the time, since all I want to do is delay them until they die, and vapor snag is a good way to delay them AND get a little extra damage in. Valorous Stance is just good protection for my creatures, as well as removal for stuff like Spellskite or Siege Rhino or Goyf or Deceiver Exarch.
My manabase is also a little wonky I think with the fetches, but all my Mistys and Tarns are in use elsewhere and I only have 3 Flooded Strand. This is working out alright though.
I've mostly been testing against combo decks, but the list seems really good. I have yet to lose to Twin, Storm, or Infect.
Responses are greatly appreciated!
2 Negate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hallow
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
Other than your core spells, I like 2 Revelry/1 Grudge against Affinity. Grudge is really good and you shouldn't leave it out. I also like 1-2 Pyroclasm, which comes in against them and against a host of other aggressive strategies. Hallow is way better than Heroes Remembered, which is dead a lot of the time against Burn, even in your opener. Hallow is guaranteed to counter 2 Burn spells and often does even more (if you cast it on a Searing Blaze, you essentially countered 4 Bolts for one mana). It seems like you prefer SBD, but Huntmaster is way better in this deck. Costing 4 instead of 5 is huge when only 6 of your lands even produce mana, not to mention SBD is fairly narrow (crushing BGx and that's about it) while Huntmaster comes in against tons of aggressive decks and Burn as well.
As for the Rhinos + Tomb, that's 4 slots. 4 SLOTS!!!!! Huntmaster is just better and he doesn't even hurt your mana as much.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also, replacing the charms with lightning helixes does seem like a very good idea. I just wasn't sure because my feeling is that game 1 will be a loss to burn no matter what, even with helixes. Hence 4 feed the clan. Thinking about it now, Dragon Claw is probably better. I just hate losing to burn and affinity so I loaded my board with hate for those. I honestly thought that most of my other matchups were pretty good or even, because there's not much that can beat a early, fast clock with disruption. Is the BG/X matchup that bad? I know lingering souls is good against this deck, but that's what the counterspells are for. The rest of the deck just seems too slow to really interact. Also, there's not too much BG/X in my meta so I don't have to worry about it too much. Either way, extra removal in the board seems useful. Taking out the helixes could clear up some space for that.
What do you think of a SB of
2 Spell Snare
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Dragon Claw (I REALLY don't want to lost to burn)
2 Path to Exile
1 Valorous Stance
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Electrickery (seems good against Lingering Souls and stuff like V Clique, Bob, Young Pyromancer as well as Affinity)
Or maybe Forked Bolt is better. But I do like the instant speed of Electrickery...
But again, thanks man. I'll be switching out those charms for helixes for sure.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant (20)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
Sorcery (7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Isochron Scepter
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rending Volley
2 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mutagenic Growth
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I took the deck to a 60-man Face to Face Modern event last Monday and didn't have time to do a tournament report, but I put one in this post. First, the list I played:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant (20)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
Sorcery (7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Isochron Scepter
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Valorous Stance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
1 Mutagenic Growth
Plan:
-1 Path to Exile
-2 Boros Charm
-2 Remand
-3 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Mutagenic Growth
+1 Negate
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Flashfreeze
Round 2 vs. Mardu Burn (0-2): Game 1 he has way too many Eidolons an closes me out with a topdecked Boros Charm for exactly lethal after I deal with them. Game 2 I make the mistake of holding all my countermagic in hand, wanting to snag something nice, when I don't have pressure on the board; he's Bolting me etc. on my End Step and I'm letting them all resolve and finally lose with a hand full of permission. Lesson learned. His Molten Rain on my Stomping Ground sets me back a good amount; I have a Fountain and an Island and can't cast my Goyfs. A fourth Helix and some one-mana counterspells would help this matchup enormously; maybe more than a single Spell Snare or some in the SB?
Plan:
See Round 1.
Round 3 vs. UR Storm (2-0): Counter-Cat is made to beat up on decks like these. Game 1 I have Wild Nacatl into Tarmogoyf for speedy beats and he never gets to turn on his Pyromancer Ascension. I throw my Bolts at him on the End Step. I see a Fountain so I mistakenly think he's on UWR Value Storm (turns out it was just a splash for SB tech), so I board incorrectly. Game 2 he's stuck on 2 lands as I beat him up with a Delver. I Bolt his Electromancers and Pierce his Ascensions. He eventually makes some land drops (my clock isn't ultra-damaging) but I have Remand, Leak, and Flashfreeze for his Past in Flames. Very fun to let them Storm off with a couple rituals and then to counter the spell that keeps them going (generally a PiF or a Manamorphose). Most of the removal comes out in this matchup for countermagic, making us nigh impossible to beat games 2 and 3. Revelry isn't just there for Pyromancer Ascension; I've seen Blood Moon from Storm decks and didn't want to lose to it.
Plan:
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Boros Charm
-1 Lightning Helix
+2 Destructive Revelry
+1 Negate
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Flashfreeze
Round 4 vs. UR Twin (2-1): Another easy matchup, maybe even laughably so. I've been playing a Jund-colored brew lately and Twin has really been a tug-of-war, so plowing them with this list was really refreshing. Didn't take notes but Game 1 he just never found a guy. Had Splinter Twin in hand the whole game (I was Probing him). He got the combo Game 2. He tried to force it through open mana again in game 3 but I Valorous Stanced his Exarch, which was a good laugh (he had to read it). G3 was pretty grindy, but even Batterskull didn't do anything (too slow, I could just Path it and come in for more damage).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy