Also, do you bring in Spreading Seas against anything other than tron? Is it worth bringing in against multicolored decks? Judgement call perhaps?
Also, when does Snapcaster Mage come in? When you don't need three Paths?
Maybe sideboarding is something I'll have to get used to here
When you say multicolor, it really depends on the aggression level. Deaths shadow? Not so much. Anything that doesn't play blue? Yes, especially if it's 3 color because now they have to slow their tempo or eat another shock. Most things with man lands. Burn (even mono) because they run land-light. It can do good work in a lot of situations.
I don't run the second snap, but it's value is directly dependent on your opponent. Not great on aggro, but good against mid-range and combo when you can hold mana up on turn 3 or 4.
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Modern! Dredge RBG
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
I'm sorry to say I've retired Tribal Flames. I just had to get there myself. On your modern nexus article list now, though I'm trying out Disdainful Stroke instead of Negate in the sideboard. I find myself running into TitanShift a lot, and being able to counter big daddy Primeval Titan seems worth it. Seems like it has some other notable targets from other decks too, including Gifts Ungiven and Past in Flames from storm, a bunch of Eldrazi and Karn Liberateds from the infinite Tron decks that exist, and I suppose even Cryptic Commands. Mostly for TitanShift though.
Also only really feel confident with that since Spell Pierce feels so much like a Negate already.
Also, do you bring in Spreading Seas against anything other than tron? Is it worth bringing in against multicolored decks? Judgement call perhaps?
Also, when does Snapcaster Mage come in? When you don't need three Paths?
Maybe sideboarding is something I'll have to get used to here
When you say multicolor, it really depends on the aggression level. Deaths shadow? Not so much. Anything that doesn't play blue? Yes, especially if it's 3 color because now they have to slow their tempo or eat another shock. Most things with man lands. Burn (even mono) because they run land-light. It can do good work in a lot of situations.
I don't run the second snap, but it's value is directly dependent on your opponent. Not great on aggro, but good against mid-range and combo when you can hold mana up on turn 3 or 4.
Just for the record I disagree with all of this. Seas is great vs Shadow and other midrange decks, which is one of the reasons we started playing it (cuts them off R and BB and hits manlands while being proactive disruption that gets around discard). Snap is the best card in our deck when we're playing from behind. That makes it one of our strongest cards vs aggro and midrange alike. He comes in against almost everybody since we're a big pile of spells opponents hate after siding and have more mana then.
I'm sorry to say I've retired Tribal Flames. I just had to get there myself. On your modern nexus article list now, though I'm trying out Disdainful Stroke instead of Negate in the sideboard. I find myself running into TitanShift a lot, and being able to counter big daddy Primeval Titan seems worth it. Seems like it has some other notable targets from other decks too, including Gifts Ungiven and Past in Flames from storm, a bunch of Eldrazi and Karn Liberateds from the infinite Tron decks that exist, and I suppose even Cryptic Commands. Mostly for TitanShift though.
Also only really feel confident with that since Spell Pierce feels so much like a Negate already.
Excited to see how it goes.
This is a thought I had myself about a month ago but in testing I found Negate to be much more useful. The crux is that Negate can hit a cheap removal spell in the spell-based interactive matchups and Stroke can't (often Leak can't either in these situations).
Overall it's crucial to have cards in the sb with this deck that are as flexible as possible, which allows us to transform-board no matter the matchup (i.e. all removal and threats vs creatures, all threats and permission vs combo or control, a mix vs midrange depending on the style, etc.).
But I encourage you to try it out! As you found with Tribal Flames, it can be rewarding and deeply enlightening to learn these things experientially.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Just for the record I disagree with all of this. Seas is great vs Shadow and other midrange decks, which is one of the reasons we started playing it (cuts them off R and BB and hits manlands while being proactive disruption that gets around discard). Snap is the best card in our deck when we're playing from behind. That makes it one of our strongest cards vs aggro and midrange alike. He comes in against almost everybody since we're a big pile of spells opponents hate after siding and have more mana then.
See I had this thought but it hasn't been my experience. My normal meta includes at least two DS variants but I've never been able to even slow them let alone take them off a color with seas, so I stopped bringing it in against them. It usually just felt like I was gifting them a turn.
As for snap, I don't disagree about his utility but I have typically found that I never have enough mana up to effectively use him, even when I'm only running the maindeck copy. 80% of the time for me I wind up dropping him on an EOT as an extra threat for the next turn.
But again I've only been playing it for month, so my interaction with it is a relatively small sample.
Now for a technical question. Slight of Hand. Don't get me wrong, I get why it's good. But I consistently feel like it's not good enough, and it's almost always one of the first things I board out in every game. I read a bunch of the work done around SoH vs Opt, and I get that SoH guarantees you the better of two cards, where Opt only lets you decide on the first of the two.. but I feel like I would much prefer to have Opt up and use it to dig for an answer or as an EOT cantrip after holding up counters for the opponents turn. I just don't see how it's really helpful outside of being a sorcery in the bin for Goyf. So is it just the way I play that makes it feel like it's out of place being included here?
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Modern! Dredge RBG
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
Just for the record I disagree with all of this. Seas is great vs Shadow and other midrange decks, which is one of the reasons we started playing it (cuts them off R and BB and hits manlands while being proactive disruption that gets around discard). Snap is the best card in our deck when we're playing from behind. That makes it one of our strongest cards vs aggro and midrange alike. He comes in against almost everybody since we're a big pile of spells opponents hate after siding and have more mana then.
See I had this thought but it hasn't been my experience. My normal meta includes at least two DS variants but I've never been able to even slow them let alone take them off a color with seas, so I stopped bringing it in against them. It usually just felt like I was gifting them a turn.
As for snap, I don't disagree about his utility but I have typically found that I never have enough mana up to effectively use him, even when I'm only running the maindeck copy. 80% of the time for me I wind up dropping him on an EOT as an extra threat for the next turn.
But again I've only been playing it for month, so my interaction with it is a relatively small sample.
Now for a technical question. Slight of Hand. Don't get me wrong, I get why it's good. But I consistently feel like it's not good enough, and it's almost always one of the first things I board out in every game. I read a bunch of the work done around SoH vs Opt, and I get that SoH guarantees you the better of two cards, where Opt only lets you decide on the first of the two.. but I feel like I would much prefer to have Opt up and use it to dig for an answer or as an EOT cantrip after holding up counters for the opponents turn. I just don't see how it's really helpful outside of being a sorcery in the bin for Goyf. So is it just the way I play that makes it feel like it's out of place being included here?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Played my monthly Modern last sunday with Counter-Cat. Went decently well even though I can't quite break into T8. 26 players showed up and I finished 2-1-2, losing my spot in the deciding final match.
The deck is as fun as ever to play and I'll be bringing it to the GP in my city in a couple weeks. Only side events unfortunately (main event is team limited, sad face) but that should still be a hundred players so, fearsome competition!
Anyway, sideboarding is still one of my weakest point so I could likely use a review and some advices.
Matches I played with choices (Meta is usually filled with Tron, Shadow and other t1 decks, managed to dodge them all!):
Abzan midrange: 0-2
- 2 Thought Scour, 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
UB Faeries: 2-1
- 4 Path to Exile, 2 Thought Scour, 1 Disrupting Shoal, 1 Lightning Bolt
+ 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Negate
Grixis Delver: 1-1
- 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Thought Scour, 1 Chart a Course, 1 Disrupting Shoal
+ 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Snapcaster Mage
GW kitchen brew: 2-0
- 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Spell Pierce (did not see any Collected Company here, I don't think there was, might be questionable otherwise?)
+ 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Engineered Explosives
UW Control: 0-2
- 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Thought Scour, 4 Path to Exile (not sure about other lists but he was playing more creatures than I expected, Finks and Restoration Angel notably, felt sligthly uncomfortable boarding out all 4, wonder if that was the correct choice...)
+ 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Spreading Seas, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Negate, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Good thing is, apart Abzan, all matches felt winnable.
I really like our BGx matchup with this build. The trick is to board out all your permission, even Leak. Permission makes you soft to a resolved Lili since they can just tick up and not do anything and shred your hand. Proactive disruption (i.e. Seas) is much better.
Here's my plan:
-2 Scour
-3 Shoal
-2 Leak
-2 Pierce
+2 Hunt
+1 Tam
+1 Snap
+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Seas
+1 EE
Oh yeah I started playing a 2nd EE over the 2nd Grudge. There are fewer Chalices and EE hits those anyway. Just shares a lot of coverage. Main reason for the switch is to hedge against the new breed if CoCo decks and Humans, which are full of three-drops. It's a one-sided wrath in a lot of those matchups for x=3. We'll want EE #2 in the Abzan MU too but I don't know what to board out for it yet.
Paths are great vs UW decks with Resto/Finks, those cards run our aggression and we can beat whatever else they do so long as we're attacking with a guy for most of the game. Tamiyo is great vs Delver. Cut all the Shoals for Faeries; there's nothing they are doing early we desperately need to keep up with and have enough 2-for-1s postboard to just outcard them. Permission is only for stuff like Damnation in this MU and Shoal doesn't hit those cards.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Thanks I guess everything makes sense. I'm just surprised that you board out leak against Abzan. I seem to recall (at least when I was playing the Monkey Grow version) that it was necessary against bombs such as Rhino.
Against UW Control with creatures, if you keep Path, would you still bring in Spreading Seas?
Thanks I guess everything makes sense. I'm just surprised that you board out leak against Abzan. I seem to recall (at least when I was playing the Monkey Grow version) that it was necessary against bombs such as Rhino.
In countercats you have paths that deal with rhinos. That's a huge difference between CC and Temur delver. Even if quite similar in card composition, they're deeply different in playstyle and decisions.
I own and love RUG delver, but I think that for variety I might as well build this deck too. Can anyone give me a bit of a rundown on the differences in play between these two? I notice a lot of familiar people in this thread from the monkey grow thread I also lurk
Is there a specific reason for no Sacred Foundry with the addition of Breeding Pool? Seems almost like it might be the best combo of lands since we have a lot of U/G one drops and a lot of W/R one drops.
Is there a specific reason for no Sacred Foundry with the addition of Breeding Pool? Seems almost like it might be the best combo of lands since we have a lot of U/G one drops and a lot of W/R one drops.
Breeding pool is a third land to fetch not a first or second one (except in very rare cases). Actually fetching up that pair will screw your next plays. It's difficult to explain, just try some opening hands and see. Other combinations let you play your spells in a smother way in any case granting you the 4 colors (and 3/3 nacatls). It's a matter of chaining spells not only having couples of shocks. I think Jordan explained it in some posts or articles.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Sacred Foundry is the worst land by far. It only casts 8 cards in the whole deck (pre SB), otherwise it will be just a colourless land, something we cannot really afford.
Furthermore, Breeding Pool is the perfect third land in the current shell, since it doubles down on the most used colours. If the deck would shift back to a more burn centric approach (with 6-7 burn cards) than Pool would be the first card which would get kicked.
Besides this, the current iteration is aimed at three lands, and not two. Hence also 18 lands instead of the 17 for the more aggro version (the one with more burn that I played). Chart a Course fixes the problems of flood and also gas, which was previously a major problem for the 18 land version.
Hope, that explains your question.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
What are Counter Cat's main weaknesses? What are its bad matchups? I'm working on fitting Chart a Course in a RUG list, and it looks a lot like Counter Cat, so I'm wondering if Counter Cat is just strictly better for that kind of shell. So, what does Counter Cat not do well? Are there any flaws that you feel when playing it?
What are Counter Cat's main weaknesses? What are its bad matchups? I'm working on fitting Chart a Course in a RUG list, and it looks a lot like Counter Cat, so I'm wondering if Counter Cat is just strictly better for that kind of shell. So, what does Counter Cat not do well? Are there any flaws that you feel when playing it?
I have tried a bunch of RUG shells with Chart and many one-drops and come to this conclusion. Path is too powerful not to run, especially when you're trying to get through on the ground with cheap guys. Our bad MUs are the ones whose strategies just line up really well against the plans we have available to us, making them difficult to side for. Fortunately, few of those decks exist. The notable exception is Dredge, which can be beaten easily if we dedicate 3+ slots to it, but doing that hurts our other matchups across the board enough that I don't think it's worth it.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
GP in my city last weekend. Played two Modern side events so 8 rounds total. Good thing is, lots of players (Sunday was 150+) and a bunch of archetypes I dont get to face at my LGS. Bad thing is, I got wrecked...
Matches were:
Merfolk (L), Affinity (D), RW Planewalkers control (L), Jeskai midrange (W), Affinity (L), Treefolk homebrew (D), Affinity (W), Abzan (L)
So, total is: 2-2-4, not the best
A few notes:
Sometimes, Magic doesn't want you to win. I have a very close game 1 against Merfolk that I lose when he topdecks a lord for exactly lethal while I have lethal on board too myself. My draws game 2 are: 7 no land, 6 1 land unkeepable, 5 no land, 4 no land...
I had a really hard time beating Etched Champion every time I faced it. Gets worse when they have multiple or a ravager was able to pump. Engineered Explosives is good obviously but you don't always draw it.
Speaking of which, loved the second one! Very good card, lots of application! Had only one Saturday but was able to trade the second for Sunday, no regret!
RW PW control felt like climbing a mountain. Uncommon matchup fortunately.
Beating Treefolk largely depends on how many Delver you draw Those damn trees are bigger than everything you can have on the ground.
The deck was as fun as ever to play but... There's something that annoys me with it. I played some games against a friend that is on BW token and I just wasn't able to win a single game 1. And I feel like this is the case against most of the field. There are some matchups where you have so many dead cards that your best bet is going straight to game 2. Feels like a real disadvantage especially when going to time.
@Jordan: you're obviously a much more experienced player than I am, as it been really different for you?
Anyway, this was just a little rant, I had a good time with the deck and I'm sticking with it for a while
Absolutely been loving Counter Cat! I have read just about everything you've posted about the deck and enjoy every bit of it. The latest iteration of CC with the most recent change being the Engineered Explosives over the Ancient Grudge is such a fantastic list.
I have been working on a project similar to what Riku_the_Wizard was doing a while back with the Bedlam/Traverse/Delver Temur deck that got banished along with Gitaxian Probe. It's a sideboard notebook that takes after your thoughts behind the way you treat sideboarding (Aggressive, Midrange and Tempo Transitions). I find that really clears up a lot of what I have been having trouble with in Magic in general.
I want to take this deck to a large event and do well because I truly believe it has potential. Every card, every matchup, every card they play, every state in the game, every moment! It's all a wonderful part of Magic and I feel like this deck really encapsulates what I want to be doing in Magic; piloting an aggro-control deck. Being able to switch gears post board and take over the game against a wide variety of decks, have a late game or an early game if you see fit! It's ecstasy!
I have been looking for some sound advice from the Creator/Innovator himself. I have a couple questions and I was wondering if I could ask for some help with the notebook. I'd greatly appreciate it.
I've had some trouble in testing with certain matchups. Specifically Midrange style, removal-dense decks like Jund and Uw Control style decks. I've wanted to clear up some issues with this help sheet and write some particular, helpful notes about certain matchups like:
Which spells to focus all of our permission onto. (ie. Against Junk, Mana Leak tries to play Seige Rhino duty only)
Does Snapcaster only want to Flashback certain spells? (ie. Permission against combo or removal against creature decks)
Playing land drops - are land drops over 2-4 necessary or should we bluff cards or use them as discard fodder?
Playing Chart without Raid in the grindy matchups. Is it more important to Gain CA or CQ?
Bolting the dome as opposed to creatures.
When playing a tempo oriented role, what to focus on.
Serum Visions - (an extremely skill testing card in this deck) when to use it and what to look for.
How to turn a bad matchup (ie. Dredge, Living End, Blood Moon decks, high density removal decks {in my experience these have been troublesome}) into a better one. Get lucky?
How to navigate combat, whether to attack or not.
Taking out all permission against GBx decks leaves us soft to Liliana doesn't it?
Do we ever take out our Forest?
These are vague but examples of the many issues I wanted to address.
Which spells to focus all of our permission onto. (ie. Against Junk, Mana Leak tries to play Seige Rhino duty only) Really depends on the game state. For instance, a lot of times we don't care about Rhino from Junk because we have Path. Value cards like Kalitas or Tracker can give us a harder time there, not to mention planeswalkers.
Does Snapcaster only want to Flashback certain spells? (ie. Permission against combo or removal against creature decks) Yes. In postboard games, you are likely to have only removal or only permission in your deck. It's rare to hit matchups where you want a mix of both. That's why the other Snap is in the board: it becomes that much better after siding, when we have a critical mass of cards we want to flash back (as well as more mana thanks to the slower nature of postbard games).
Playing land drops - are land drops over 2-4 necessary or should we bluff cards or use them as discard fodder? Usually it doesn't hurt to keep a land in hand. In some matchups you'll want to play around Lili by hellbenting on purpose or keeping a land on purpose. Important to have mana for cantrip chains into haymakers though, so postboard it's usually better to make your land drops. Again, depends on the situation.
Playing Chart without Raid in the grindy matchups. Is it more important to Gain CA or CQ? In grindy matchups, you generally want to try to get advantage off Chart. When you're under pressure or otherwise need something badly of course you should Chart right away.
Bolting the dome as opposed to creatures. Depends on the situation. Bolt is so good because it does what you need it to, which can vary wildly during a game.
When playing a tempo oriented role, what to focus on. ???
Serum Visions - (an extremely skill testing card in this deck) when to use it and what to look for. Whatever you want? I usually cast these right away if I don't have other things to do with the mana (otherwise it's usually better to either make a proactive play or hold up disruption if we have the initiative on board). Use Serum to smooth out your draws: early on make sure you make your land drops, and later filter all the lands away. Three lands is a sweet spot for us.
How to turn a bad matchup (ie. Dredge, Living End, Blood Moon decks, high density removal decks {in my experience these have been troublesome}) into a better one. Get lucky? Reps and siding. Dredge and Moon decks are fine, as are removal decks. LE's strategy just lines up very well vs ours though (sweepers plus land destruction).
How to navigate combat, whether to attack or not. Reps teach you combat. These skills will translate well from other formats and decks, but it's otherwise crucial to develop them if you want to succeed on this deck.
Taking out all permission against GBx decks leaves us soft to Liliana doesn't it? Opposite. Lili will shred your hand if you can't play it out proactively.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Taking out all permission against GBx decks leaves us soft to Liliana doesn't it?
Opposite. Lili will shred your hand if you can't play it out proactively.
Against LotV decks, I can't help but conclude that a resolved Lili is lights out. Is there any merit to keeping in permission at all? Not even spell pierce? I'll admit that when Lili does resolve (albeit, past a Spell Pierce or Mana Leak) they do have much more control when you can't cast your useless permission that they discard from your hand over and over. Shouldn't we try to reactively answer Lili with permission to stop the assault from ever flourishing?
Also, does the way we play our threats against midrangey decks change based on our hand or do we have a specific angle of attack? ie. play out all threats at once, or try to overload their removal (which seems difficult) by playing threats consistently early. I find that with the latter approach, they just come out ahead with plays like push, push, lili or push, goyf, push, lili.
Do we want access to Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle out of the board. Needle efficiently and proactively answers Lili and EE seems like a good way to get rid of a board of Goyfs and Scoozes... not quite sure though. This matchup seems all over the place with what they could end up doing.
When playing a tempo oriented role, what to focus on.
This was a stupid way to phrase what I was trying to ask. This question just encapsulates all the different options we have with our entire deck at all times and is almost impossible to answer without context.
Taking out all permission against GBx decks leaves us soft to Liliana doesn't it?
Opposite. Lili will shred your hand if you can't play it out proactively.
Against LotV decks, I can't help but conclude that a resolved Lili is lights out. Is there any merit to keeping in permission at all? Not even spell pierce? I'll admit that when Lili does resolve (albeit, past a Spell Pierce or Mana Leak) they do have much more control when you can't cast your useless permission that they discard from your hand over and over. Shouldn't we try to reactively answer Lili with permission to stop the assault from ever flourishing?
I thought so at first too but that's wrong. We remove permission vs BGx so that we can and do beat Lilis. We have Bolts and tons of threats postboard, and generally even let her tick up a turn so we can dump a fetchland or something as our opponent bins something important before zapping her. In this way, Lili ends up fixing our hand a lot of the time. You're bound to tap out at some point and then Lili can get in under Pierce and tear it from your hand for free. Pierce also "dies" regularly in this kind of matchup, which often goes to the mid-game (our secret strength is a mid-game that can actually tangle with BGx, since we've got Hunts, Snaps, and Tamiyo and only 18 lands to their 24-ish).
Also, does the way we play our threats against midrangey decks change based on our hand or do we have a specific angle of attack? ie. play out all threats at once, or try to overload their removal (which seems difficult) by playing threats consistently early. I find that with the latter approach, they just come out ahead with plays like push, push, lili or push, goyf, push, lili.
Your problem is that you're not sequencing threats properly. Put in a lot of reps and you will start to get a feel for when they have removal spells or not. Sequence in a way that doesn't give them free opportunities to spend their mana. For instance, if they lead with untapped Blackcleave Cliffs, don't slam Delver. Wait until they tap out for Bob, then Bolt the Bob, then play a couple one-drops. Now you're immune to Lili and can follow up with other plays. Simplified scenario and of course there's a lot of variety in how it can play out but that's the gist of it.
Do we want access to Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle out of the board. Needle efficiently and proactively answers Lili and EE seems like a good way to get rid of a board of Goyfs and Scoozes... not quite sure though. This matchup seems all over the place with what they could end up doing.
Both are good, Needle less so though. EE a must to take out boards of multiple two/three-drops (i.e. Scooze Goyf; Lili Tracker) or Lingering Souls.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have a few questions regarding certain macthups that I have found troublesome over the past few weeks. I was hoping I could get some good feedback.
vs. UR Storm:
Do we side in Pyroclasm or EE specifically for EtW post-board
Is Snapcaster Mage worth siding in when his typical lowest mana cost is 3 (and Storm traditionally plays Remand)? Does he ever serve an Ambush Viper role?
Does Surgical have a designated target most of the time? If so, what is it? If not, what are the main targets?
vs. Titan Breach
Do we keep Path to Exile in post-board for Titan and potentially Obstinate Baloth despite it ramping them further towards their goal?
Is Spreading Seas good enough to side in to shut off a mountain or double green? {I find it has been, just wanted to check}
Do we focus on countering the ramp spells in this match-up (using Mana Leak aggressively) or should we save it for a inevitable Titan or TtB?
Does Ancient Grudge or EE have a home in the 60 post-board to catch early Relics or Chalices? I've found that having Relic allows them to dismiss Tarmogoyf entirely and sometimes kill it with either Anger or Bolt.
Does Shoal come out or stay in for the potential countering of their Relics, Bolts, Tribe-Elder, or Chalices?
vs. Living End
Disrupting Shoal becomes counterspell against "LE"; that would lead me to believe the matchup can be decent. I can only assume from what I've heard that it is bad because of cards like Shriekmaw and Fulminator Mage and Living End just being a board wipe against us. What has your experience been?
Do we try and keep our fetchlands uncracked until we have a key play to avoid Fulminator Mage?
Are Path to Exiles useful or should we just try and stop Living End from resolving entirely?
Does Pithing Needle have a purpose in stopping Faerie Macabre or Fulminator Mage?
It seems like Ricochet Trap is wicked against a "counter your combo" plan. Is there any way to play around it or avoid it?
I have a few questions regarding certain macthups that I have found troublesome over the past few weeks. I was hoping I could get some good feedback.
vs. UR Storm:
Do we side in Pyroclasm or EE specifically for EtW post-board
Is Snapcaster Mage worth siding in when his typical lowest mana cost is 3 (and Storm traditionally plays Remand)? Does he ever serve an Ambush Viper role?
Does Surgical have a designated target most of the time? If so, what is it? If not, what are the main targets?
vs. Titan Breach
Do we keep Path to Exile in post-board for Titan and potentially Obstinate Baloth despite it ramping them further towards their goal?
Is Spreading Seas good enough to side in to shut off a mountain or double green? {I find it has been, just wanted to check}
Do we focus on countering the ramp spells in this match-up (using Mana Leak aggressively) or should we save it for a inevitable Titan or TtB?
Does Ancient Grudge or EE have a home in the 60 post-board to catch early Relics or Chalices? I've found that having Relic allows them to dismiss Tarmogoyf entirely and sometimes kill it with either Anger or Bolt.
Does Shoal come out or stay in for the potential countering of their Relics, Bolts, Tribe-Elder, or Chalices?
vs. Living End
Disrupting Shoal becomes counterspell against "LE"; that would lead me to believe the matchup can be decent. I can only assume from what I've heard that it is bad because of cards like Shriekmaw and Fulminator Mage and Living End just being a board wipe against us. What has your experience been?
Do we try and keep our fetchlands uncracked until we have a key play to avoid Fulminator Mage?
Are Path to Exiles useful or should we just try and stop Living End from resolving entirely?
Does Pithing Needle have a purpose in stopping Faerie Macabre or Fulminator Mage?
It seems like Ricochet Trap is wicked against a "counter your combo" plan. Is there any way to play around it or avoid it?
Storm:
- yes
- yes
- their key spell in resp to PiF that allows them to continue comboing (often Manamorphose), or something after a Gifts (often PiF), or Grapeshot (if we have Pyroclasm handy)
Titan:
- yes
- yes
- counter everything they do and attack every turn
- AG only
- stay
Living: UU still hard to get in this mu and trap kills
- yes
- very useful; often we force them into an early LE and can then remove their guys and make resolving another one awkward
- not worth it
- no
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@AshtonDaGod
Alright! Questionnaire #2 Here we go.
In what match-ups does Hooting Mandrills get shaved from the 60 and why? More specifically, is Hooting Mandrills considered to be too slow against combo decks due to the non-interactivity of the archetype
Is Disrupting Shoal a decent or even necessary card in any mid-range match-ups? If so, which ones?
How would you describe Disrupting Shoal's role in this deck? When side-boarding, what goes through your mind when deciding to keep it or not? Does it primarily protect creatures from removal or 'disrupt' an opponents proactive game plan (ex. counter Vial, Noble, Amulet, Bogle, Springleaf Drum, etc.)
Does bolt ever come out in the completely non-interactive match-ups or is it uncommon to side out our reach?
What are the main draws to Surgical Extraction? Without discard it doesn't exactly fill the same role it would in a deck full of disruption. Is it (specifically) to interact with different cards that utilize the graveyard like: Prized Amalgam, Kolaghan's Command, Snapcaster Mage, Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks or Renegade Rallier, etc.?
On a side note, I have thought of a particular instance wherein Surgical might be beneficial outside of the aforementioned cases. In the UW or UWx control match-ups, would it ever be brought in to extract Supreme Verdict after they inevitably cast one to remove the burden of worrying about over-committing or is that too narrow of an application? This is a niche use of the card and I'm sure there are more that have merit for discussion. cont'd
Would Surgical Extraction ever target the card "Living End"?
Does Chart a Course ever seem too slow in certain 'quicker' matchups like: Burn, Affinity, Goryo's or Bogles?
Against Bloomless Titan we would only want access to Ancient Grudge and not EE, right?
It seems like Snapcaster is a highly useful card and seems to fit into any 60 post board. Are there any match-ups where you would only keep in 1 or even none at all?
When do cantrips get the axe post-board?
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When you say multicolor, it really depends on the aggression level. Deaths shadow? Not so much. Anything that doesn't play blue? Yes, especially if it's 3 color because now they have to slow their tempo or eat another shock. Most things with man lands. Burn (even mono) because they run land-light. It can do good work in a lot of situations.
I don't run the second snap, but it's value is directly dependent on your opponent. Not great on aggro, but good against mid-range and combo when you can hold mana up on turn 3 or 4.
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
Also only really feel confident with that since Spell Pierce feels so much like a Negate already.
Excited to see how it goes.
Overall it's crucial to have cards in the sb with this deck that are as flexible as possible, which allows us to transform-board no matter the matchup (i.e. all removal and threats vs creatures, all threats and permission vs combo or control, a mix vs midrange depending on the style, etc.).
But I encourage you to try it out! As you found with Tribal Flames, it can be rewarding and deeply enlightening to learn these things experientially.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
See I had this thought but it hasn't been my experience. My normal meta includes at least two DS variants but I've never been able to even slow them let alone take them off a color with seas, so I stopped bringing it in against them. It usually just felt like I was gifting them a turn.
As for snap, I don't disagree about his utility but I have typically found that I never have enough mana up to effectively use him, even when I'm only running the maindeck copy. 80% of the time for me I wind up dropping him on an EOT as an extra threat for the next turn.
But again I've only been playing it for month, so my interaction with it is a relatively small sample.
Now for a technical question. Slight of Hand. Don't get me wrong, I get why it's good. But I consistently feel like it's not good enough, and it's almost always one of the first things I board out in every game. I read a bunch of the work done around SoH vs Opt, and I get that SoH guarantees you the better of two cards, where Opt only lets you decide on the first of the two.. but I feel like I would much prefer to have Opt up and use it to dig for an answer or as an EOT cantrip after holding up counters for the opponents turn. I just don't see how it's really helpful outside of being a sorcery in the bin for Goyf. So is it just the way I play that makes it feel like it's out of place being included here?
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
Opt > when you have 4x Snapcaster Mage or play primarily at instant speed. We don't.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The deck is as fun as ever to play and I'll be bringing it to the GP in my city in a couple weeks. Only side events unfortunately (main event is team limited, sad face) but that should still be a hundred players so, fearsome competition!
Anyway, sideboarding is still one of my weakest point so I could likely use a review and some advices.
Matches I played with choices (Meta is usually filled with Tron, Shadow and other t1 decks, managed to dodge them all!):
Abzan midrange: 0-2
- 2 Thought Scour, 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Snapcaster Mage, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
UB Faeries: 2-1
- 4 Path to Exile, 2 Thought Scour, 1 Disrupting Shoal, 1 Lightning Bolt
+ 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Negate
Grixis Delver: 1-1
- 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Thought Scour, 1 Chart a Course, 1 Disrupting Shoal
+ 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Snapcaster Mage
GW kitchen brew: 2-0
- 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Spell Pierce (did not see any Collected Company here, I don't think there was, might be questionable otherwise?)
+ 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Engineered Explosives
UW Control: 0-2
- 3 Disrupting Shoal, 2 Thought Scour, 4 Path to Exile (not sure about other lists but he was playing more creatures than I expected, Finks and Restoration Angel notably, felt sligthly uncomfortable boarding out all 4, wonder if that was the correct choice...)
+ 1 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Spreading Seas, 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 2 Negate, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Good thing is, apart Abzan, all matches felt winnable.
Here's my plan:
-2 Scour
-3 Shoal
-2 Leak
-2 Pierce
+2 Hunt
+1 Tam
+1 Snap
+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Seas
+1 EE
Oh yeah I started playing a 2nd EE over the 2nd Grudge. There are fewer Chalices and EE hits those anyway. Just shares a lot of coverage. Main reason for the switch is to hedge against the new breed if CoCo decks and Humans, which are full of three-drops. It's a one-sided wrath in a lot of those matchups for x=3. We'll want EE #2 in the Abzan MU too but I don't know what to board out for it yet.
Paths are great vs UW decks with Resto/Finks, those cards run our aggression and we can beat whatever else they do so long as we're attacking with a guy for most of the game. Tamiyo is great vs Delver. Cut all the Shoals for Faeries; there's nothing they are doing early we desperately need to keep up with and have enough 2-for-1s postboard to just outcard them. Permission is only for stuff like Damnation in this MU and Shoal doesn't hit those cards.
GL!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Against UW Control with creatures, if you keep Path, would you still bring in Spreading Seas?
In countercats you have paths that deal with rhinos. That's a huge difference between CC and Temur delver. Even if quite similar in card composition, they're deeply different in playstyle and decisions.
Modern:
I own and love RUG delver, but I think that for variety I might as well build this deck too. Can anyone give me a bit of a rundown on the differences in play between these two? I notice a lot of familiar people in this thread from the monkey grow thread I also lurk
Breeding pool is a third land to fetch not a first or second one (except in very rare cases). Actually fetching up that pair will screw your next plays. It's difficult to explain, just try some opening hands and see. Other combinations let you play your spells in a smother way in any case granting you the 4 colors (and 3/3 nacatls). It's a matter of chaining spells not only having couples of shocks. I think Jordan explained it in some posts or articles.
Modern:
Furthermore, Breeding Pool is the perfect third land in the current shell, since it doubles down on the most used colours. If the deck would shift back to a more burn centric approach (with 6-7 burn cards) than Pool would be the first card which would get kicked.
Besides this, the current iteration is aimed at three lands, and not two. Hence also 18 lands instead of the 17 for the more aggro version (the one with more burn that I played). Chart a Course fixes the problems of flood and also gas, which was previously a major problem for the 18 land version.
Hope, that explains your question.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Interested in RUG (Temur) Delver in Modern? Find gameplay with live commentary at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UcKe8jVh1e2N4CHbd3fhg
Good MUs:
- threat-light aggro decks (Burn; Affinity; Infect; Bogles; Delver)
- synergy-dependant aggro decks (Merfolk; Slivers; Spirits; Vial decks besides Humans)
- uninteractive combo decks (Counters Company; Storm; Valakut; Breach; Gx Tron; Ad Nauseam; Amulet; Mill)
- non-Runed Halo prison decks (WR; Lantern; 8-Rack)
Medium MUs:
- threat-heavy, synergy-independant aggro decks (Humans; Bant Retreat)
- removal-heavy combo decks (Goryo's; Living End)
- three-color midrange decks besides Mardu (URx; BGx; Shadow)
- Eldrazi decks besides Bant (Tron; Taxes; BW)
- Runed Halo prison decks
- Other: Ponza
Bad MUs:
- most decks with 4 Knight of the Reliquary
- Other: UW Control, Dredge, Bant Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Matches were:
Merfolk (L), Affinity (D), RW Planewalkers control (L), Jeskai midrange (W), Affinity (L), Treefolk homebrew (D), Affinity (W), Abzan (L)
So, total is: 2-2-4, not the best
A few notes:
@Jordan: you're obviously a much more experienced player than I am, as it been really different for you?
Anyway, this was just a little rant, I had a good time with the deck and I'm sticking with it for a while
I have been working on a project similar to what Riku_the_Wizard was doing a while back with the Bedlam/Traverse/Delver Temur deck that got banished along with Gitaxian Probe. It's a sideboard notebook that takes after your thoughts behind the way you treat sideboarding (Aggressive, Midrange and Tempo Transitions). I find that really clears up a lot of what I have been having trouble with in Magic in general.
I want to take this deck to a large event and do well because I truly believe it has potential. Every card, every matchup, every card they play, every state in the game, every moment! It's all a wonderful part of Magic and I feel like this deck really encapsulates what I want to be doing in Magic; piloting an aggro-control deck. Being able to switch gears post board and take over the game against a wide variety of decks, have a late game or an early game if you see fit! It's ecstasy!
I have been looking for some sound advice from the Creator/Innovator himself. I have a couple questions and I was wondering if I could ask for some help with the notebook. I'd greatly appreciate it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eVxCulAamr3vxPw9nVgc7XQtluFnIdNxAwmzefpVKHA/edit#gid=0
Be forewarned, it is not completed yet and most of what I've listed might not be correct yet.
I've had some trouble in testing with certain matchups. Specifically Midrange style, removal-dense decks like Jund and Uw Control style decks. I've wanted to clear up some issues with this help sheet and write some particular, helpful notes about certain matchups like:
These are vague but examples of the many issues I wanted to address.
Which spells to focus all of our permission onto. (ie. Against Junk, Mana Leak tries to play Seige Rhino duty only)
Really depends on the game state. For instance, a lot of times we don't care about Rhino from Junk because we have Path. Value cards like Kalitas or Tracker can give us a harder time there, not to mention planeswalkers.
Does Snapcaster only want to Flashback certain spells? (ie. Permission against combo or removal against creature decks)
Yes. In postboard games, you are likely to have only removal or only permission in your deck. It's rare to hit matchups where you want a mix of both. That's why the other Snap is in the board: it becomes that much better after siding, when we have a critical mass of cards we want to flash back (as well as more mana thanks to the slower nature of postbard games).
Playing land drops - are land drops over 2-4 necessary or should we bluff cards or use them as discard fodder?
Usually it doesn't hurt to keep a land in hand. In some matchups you'll want to play around Lili by hellbenting on purpose or keeping a land on purpose. Important to have mana for cantrip chains into haymakers though, so postboard it's usually better to make your land drops. Again, depends on the situation.
Playing Chart without Raid in the grindy matchups. Is it more important to Gain CA or CQ?
In grindy matchups, you generally want to try to get advantage off Chart. When you're under pressure or otherwise need something badly of course you should Chart right away.
Bolting the dome as opposed to creatures.
Depends on the situation. Bolt is so good because it does what you need it to, which can vary wildly during a game.
When playing a tempo oriented role, what to focus on.
???
Serum Visions - (an extremely skill testing card in this deck) when to use it and what to look for.
Whatever you want? I usually cast these right away if I don't have other things to do with the mana (otherwise it's usually better to either make a proactive play or hold up disruption if we have the initiative on board). Use Serum to smooth out your draws: early on make sure you make your land drops, and later filter all the lands away. Three lands is a sweet spot for us.
How to turn a bad matchup (ie. Dredge, Living End, Blood Moon decks, high density removal decks {in my experience these have been troublesome}) into a better one. Get lucky?
Reps and siding. Dredge and Moon decks are fine, as are removal decks. LE's strategy just lines up very well vs ours though (sweepers plus land destruction).
How to navigate combat, whether to attack or not.
Reps teach you combat. These skills will translate well from other formats and decks, but it's otherwise crucial to develop them if you want to succeed on this deck.
Taking out all permission against GBx decks leaves us soft to Liliana doesn't it?
Opposite. Lili will shred your hand if you can't play it out proactively.
Do we ever take out our Forest?
Nope!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also, does the way we play our threats against midrangey decks change based on our hand or do we have a specific angle of attack? ie. play out all threats at once, or try to overload their removal (which seems difficult) by playing threats consistently early. I find that with the latter approach, they just come out ahead with plays like push, push, lili or push, goyf, push, lili.
Do we want access to Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle out of the board. Needle efficiently and proactively answers Lili and EE seems like a good way to get rid of a board of Goyfs and Scoozes... not quite sure though. This matchup seems all over the place with what they could end up doing.
This was a stupid way to phrase what I was trying to ask. This question just encapsulates all the different options we have with our entire deck at all times and is almost impossible to answer without context.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
vs. UR Storm:
Disrupting Shoal becomes counterspell against "LE"; that would lead me to believe the matchup can be decent. I can only assume from what I've heard that it is bad because of cards like Shriekmaw and Fulminator Mage and Living End just being a board wipe against us. What has your experience been?
- yes
- yes
- their key spell in resp to PiF that allows them to continue comboing (often Manamorphose), or something after a Gifts (often PiF), or Grapeshot (if we have Pyroclasm handy)
Titan:
- yes
- yes
- counter everything they do and attack every turn
- AG only
- stay
Living: UU still hard to get in this mu and trap kills
- yes
- very useful; often we force them into an early LE and can then remove their guys and make resolving another one awkward
- not worth it
- no
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Alright! Questionnaire #2 Here we go.
On a side note, I have thought of a particular instance wherein Surgical might be beneficial outside of the aforementioned cases. In the UW or UWx control match-ups, would it ever be brought in to extract Supreme Verdict after they inevitably cast one to remove the burden of worrying about over-committing or is that too narrow of an application? This is a niche use of the card and I'm sure there are more that have merit for discussion.
cont'd