I think it's very interesting. It's a sorcery, it draws you 2 cards, and even if you didn't attack it helps you find the answer to let you attack the next turn. It costs 2 so it's maybe a bit slow, but it surely deserves a test.
@Ashton: did you find the SB plan for Eldratron? (I insist only because I find it a terrible match up and can't manage to get it).
Edit: I had a couple of match with Chart a Course switching a couple of Sleight of hand and the first impression is positive. It's true it costs twice sleight but the effect is much more powerful. At worst it's the same as sleight but instead of putting the card bottom you fill the graveyard. Usually you have the choice of discarding your worst card keeping both your draws. If you attacked it is pure card advantage. It's slightly worse in the first turns. The worst scenario is when you took mulligan and you are looking for lands. Sleight is much more powerful in doing that. Otherwise Chart is better especially late game. I think the 1 sleight - 2 chart split can be a good one (if the list keep beeing the same as current). In any case more tests are needed.
I think it's very interesting. It's a sorcery, it draws you 2 cards, and even if you didn't attack it helps you find the answer to let you attack the next turn. It costs 2 so it's maybe a bit slow, but it surely deserves a test.
@Ashton: did you find the SB plan for Eldratron? (I insist only because I find it a terrible match up and can't manage to get it).
Thanks for reminding me, I just forgot. She actually never wrote one but here's what I would do:
-1 Mandrills. The slowest of our threats in this matchup since Eldrazi doesn't interact with us the old fashioned way; they stick lock pieces instead of throwing removal. Relic also makes it pricey to cast and it's outclassed by Smasher and Endbringer. Goyf can force Relic pops by growing at a much faster rate than it can exile, and it grows to 5/6 in this matchup which is a crucial size, so it's better than Mandrills. We can also follow a one-drop with it pretty easily which is a solid recipe for success against this deck. Last reason to cut the Drills instead of an instant/sorcery is Delver (we really want him to flip and are already low on i/s with this plan).
-1 Sleight. Our worst cantrip here and another card we don't want to draw under Chalice. Edit -- Kelsey says she would not board out Sleight.
+1 EE, +2 Grudge. For Chalice. EE is our out to Chalice on 1 and another on 2. Grudge also kills Map/Collar/Skull etc. as needed.
+1 Needle. A lot of targets here. Can hit Map early, Quarter late, and Karn/Bringer/Collar/Ballista etc. in between.
+2 Huntmaster. A castable threat through both Chalice and Relic. Beats the deck single-handedly if Eldrazi can't answer it or apply a lot of pressure fast. They're light on removal so Hunt is really great here. Stabilizes Goyf-induced board stalls by helping pick off Smasher/TKS with Bolt.
+1 Tamiyo. Neutralizes threats so we can get in and kill with ground guys. Plus mode is also great when we all have smaller creatures (i.e. Nacatls and Reshapers). Ultimate actually wins this matchup because Eldrazi doesn't beat us when we draw three and don't care about GQ anymore. Careful not to run her into Smashers.
+2 Seas. Slow and kind of unreliable but stops some great hands and can slow others way down. Yeah, there are games where they have another of the same Tron piece and Seas does nothing, but I have won more games with it than I've lost. Seas rules with pressure. It also hits tapped Quarters or a Sea Gate. If opponents have lots of mana hitting SGW early is a priority because Eldrazi has awful recovery without it, whereas it's easy for us to pull further ahead with cantrips in a topdeck war of sorts. In my experience many games boil down to this sort of state after we Path their guys and they Dismember/trade with ours. Try to exchange resources against the deck when possible and prioritize stopping their two-for-ones cold with Mana Leak (stuff like Karn, AID).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Quick question regarding sideboarding.
Do you sometimes side out completely Wild Nacatl? Played my first tournament with the deck a week ago including two matches against UW Control (4 Spreading Seas) and 1 against Bant Toolbox (4 Ghost Quarters) and they were like never 3/3, ever.
Also, just read Jordan's article on cantrips, if I get it well, so far, Opt is not replacing Sleight of Hand, correct? (unless testing proves otherwise obviously)
Quick question regarding sideboarding.
Do you sometimes side out completely Wild Nacatl? Played my first tournament with the deck a week ago including two matches against UW Control (4 Spreading Seas) and 1 against Bant Toolbox (4 Ghost Quarters) and they were like never 3/3, ever.
Also, just read Jordan's article on cantrips, if I get it well, so far, Opt is not replacing Sleight of Hand, correct? (unless testing proves otherwise obviously)
We definitely side out Nacatl sometimes. In fact, every spell in the deck comes out occasionally, even Serum Visions (-4 Path -2 Visions +2 Hunt +2 Seas +2 Negate vs. Burn; you have Kelsey to thank for this stroke of genius).
We're still testing Opt, but so far it seems like Sleight isn't going anywhere. We've been trying a Chart over Sleight #3 and an Opt over Scour #2. Chart continues to impress. We found this deck really only wants two instant-speed, one-mana cantrips. Scour does a lot more for us than Opt does, though. We want to be casting selection cantrips on our main phase most of the time.
Going forward we will probably settle on something like this:
-1 Sleight
+1 Chart
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Note: I have not played this deck in a long time, this is just my train of thoughts
When I previously played the deck, I always wanted a card draw of some form (there is a reason, why Cruise was so good). When I toyed around with Grixis Delver (post Cruise ban) I played two Night's Whisper. While the life loss hurts in a deck with little to no life gain, I liked them a lot. They allowed you to refuel after the early game and you had a third value chain besides K-Command + Snappy or Tasigur.
However, whenever I played with Counter-Cat, due to the version I played (17 lands, more burn, a little bit lower to the ground than Ashtions version) a card like Night's Whisper was simply not possible to add to the list. Why? Even if there wouldn't be off colour, I needed 3 lands to get the full value out of a draw 2 for 2. Otherwise, I never had protection up, which is rather harsh for a deck with not many beaters.
This is why I'm a little bit sceptical but optimistic at the same time regarding Chart. Sceptical, cause I think it will lead to awkward situations more often than not (needing to wait till turn 4 or longer to be able to cast it and than have the possible problem with sacrificing a creature to get the value), however, the effect is very strong in such a deck.
So if I would pick up the deck again (currently slamming Griselbrand and Eternal Command) I would start with 2 of them in the maindeck and than work from there.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Though, that card is bonkers with Pyro
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
needing to wait till turn 4 or longer to be able to cast it and than have the possible problem with sacrificing a creature to get the value
Chart is for card advantage. So it's ok to cast it mid-late game. It's not good turn two-three even if I can see it cast if your creatures are protected by shoal (who gains a bit of value with it since chart negates the downside of exiling a card). I'm testing 2 now and I like them a lot (even when I have to discard).
Hi all! I just picked up the ashton's list on mtgo and its been a blast. The deck really has a learning curve so I'm getting better as I go. I like the mana base, but I have a love hate relationship with Breeding Pool as there is no shock pair for it. I know Sacred Foundry doesn't cast much in our deck so you can't play but it is bothersome when you only have 2 lands at times. Also the Monkey feels kinda clunky at times in this deck. Is there really nothing better for the 6 slots the Monkey and ts take up?
Hi all! I just picked up the ashton's list on mtgo and its been a blast. The deck really has a learning curve so I'm getting better as I go. I like the mana base, but I have a love hate relationship with Breeding Pool as there is no shock pair for it. I know Sacred Foundry doesn't cast much in our deck so you can't play but it is bothersome when you only have 2 lands at times. Also the Monkey feels kinda clunky at times in this deck. Is there really nothing better for the 6 slots the Monkey and ts take up?
Pool is a third land. Rare to get it first (only in a very specific type of one-lander with Scour, Delver, Mandrills, Shoal, Pierce/Snare and no other-colored spells) or second. Use it to compliment your shock pair. Monkey best creature in the deck, not close.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Here's a detailed explanation of how I got to that list and what Chart a Course does for us, as well as a comparison of the card's roles with Snapcaster's.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Did you try sorcerous spyglass in the pithing needle slot? Or is 2 instead of 1 too much anyway?
I wanted to give it a try, but still didn't have time...
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Hey folks, been a while. Been subjecting myself to the Esper train, and the worst mechanic in modern (card advantage), but chart has my interest. Jordan, playing Chart alongside Shoal, giving us the ability to aggressively dig for answers early, wouldn't that incentivize us to play Denial over pierce? My biggest complaint of CC over Monkey Grow is the lack of staying power you lose not playing Denial, especially when you don't get the fast start needed to make pierce good vs decks like Valakut. But with seven Ferocious dudes (only one less), and the ability to tap out to draw with chart while holding up shoal early, and setting up fatty plus Denial seems pretty busted when we force them to answer the first threat a specific way before deploying said fatty. Just like the old days of Shoaling the first removal, to force them to use the second on Delver simply so you could play Goyf/Mandrills and kill them before they draw two more removal spells that are relevant. Chart should get us to a point where we find that sweet spot of having one last threat and denial back up to push them over. Just a thought.
Hey folks, been a while. Been subjecting myself to the Esper train, and the worst mechanic in modern (card advantage), but chart has my interest. Jordan, playing Chart alongside Shoal, giving us the ability to aggressively dig for answers early, wouldn't that incentivize us to play Denial over pierce? My biggest complaint of CC over Monkey Grow is the lack of staying power you lose not playing Denial, especially when you don't get the fast start needed to make pierce good vs decks like Valakut. But with seven Ferocious dudes (only one less), and the ability to tap out to draw with chart while holding up shoal early, and setting up fatty plus Denial seems pretty busted when we force them to answer the first threat a specific way before deploying said fatty. Just like the old days of Shoaling the first removal, to force them to use the second on Delver simply so you could play Goyf/Mandrills and kill them before they draw two more removal spells that are relevant. Chart should get us to a point where we find that sweet spot of having one last threat and denial back up to push them over. Just a thought.
Pierce very important to this deck. Helps us run away with a one-drop or two. Denial far worse. CC has a lot of staying power thanks to Path that RUG can't really ever lay claim to---we can remove threats and end up in a state where we're topdecking better (fewer lands; cantrips; bombs post-board).
@Mike: Spyglass too expensive and we know what to name. PN is here to address resolved threats like walkers or manlands, not attack the opponent's options as with Thoughtseize or Spyglass.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Well path certainly provides more powerful creature interaction than RUG, but the tension between it and Pierce is savage. Whereas Shoal and leak could keep us in the game until we can set up a hard no with Denial plus guy, or get the same tempo value as Pierce if they get too hasty. Seems like higher ceiling and floor (may be using this part of the analogy wrong, but I mean less effective when it's not ferocious and ridiculous when it is) at the same time. I played RUG a long time, and loved it because it seemed I had the right tools for the job, (of course Probe telling us what to look for helped) and having a dude on board meant any really relevant non-creature spell simply didn't matter. Having pierce in a lot of spots doesn't seem good enough, but it's possible the higher creature count helps alleviate that by ending games more quickly? Also, what's with 26 I/S? In Monkey we would run 29-31 depending on the build to make Delver really reliable, and while I realize we have other threats (and more of them) the hands relying on that Delver as it's principle threat will be awful if Fugitive Wizard doesn't flip. I've found 28 to be a hard minimum unless I'm running Baubles, so what gives?
Well path certainly provides more powerful creature interaction than RUG, but the tension between it and Pierce is savage. Whereas Shoal and leak could keep us in the game until we can set up a hard no with Denial plus guy, or get the same tempo value as Pierce if they get too hasty. Seems like higher ceiling and floor (may be using this part of the analogy wrong, but I mean less effective when it's not ferocious and ridiculous when it is) at the same time. I played RUG a long time, and loved it because it seemed I had the right tools for the job, (of course Probe telling us what to look for helped) and having a dude on board meant any really relevant non-creature spell simply didn't matter. Having pierce in a lot of spots doesn't seem good enough, but it's possible the higher creature count helps alleviate that by ending games more quickly?
Yeah we don't find this at all but if you have been experiencing a lot of tension between the cards of course feel free to play something else. Pierce is almost never dead against spell-based decks, even in the late-game. It also comes out post-board against grindy decks and helps us cheese those in G1. But it's a truly nutty card against linear combo and big mana decks which is why we play it; our removal suite covers most of the bases vs aggro strategies.
As for Monkey comparisons: CC is a different deck, so expect some aspects to be different. Goyf and Mandrills are the cleanup crew for us, not our primary threats. We win a lot of games just with one-drops and Pierce is invaluable in those games.
Also, what's with 26 I/S? In Monkey we would run 29-31 depending on the build to make Delver really reliable, and while I realize we have other threats (and more of them) the hands relying on that Delver as it's principle threat will be awful if Fugitive Wizard doesn't flip. I've found 28 to be a hard minimum unless I'm running Baubles, so what gives?
I don't know how you stumbled upon that number, seems arbitrary. Care to share? But my own cutoff is 25. FWIW, early Delver decks in Modern played as few as 22 i/s.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Not so much of a stumble as a theory based on having as close to 50% flip as possible if played on turn one with an "average" hand. "Average" being 1-2 C
creatures, 1-2 lands and 2-4 I/S's in hand. At 28 total, and 2 in your opening that leaves you 26/53 (or slightly over 49%) cards that flip Delver played on turn one. But with 3 or more that decreased percentage hurts a lot more. When I played Monkey Grow, 30 I/S meant that even with 4 in my opener I had that same decent percentage but with 3 or less I was over 50%, and flipping Delver on turn two on the play significantly improved your games.I mean, blue lightning bolt makes many games a breee. He and Mandrills' evasion was bonkers, far better than your big dumb dudes like Tasigur or Fish. I remember the RUG days with Shackles secretly making the deck more midrange, but they were really using Delver more as a lightning rod that would occasionally give free wins as opposed to a primary threat.
I totally get this is a very different deck despite similar card choices, and I'm hoping to hone it like I had Monkey. As opposed to one threat we ride to victory, you are saying this is closer to an actual aggro deck on your archtype wheel, with a splash of light permission and better removal? Ie, go fast fast fast against combo or big manna decks and stub their toe once (pierce), or go fast against creature decks and do the same with Path/Bolt?
Not so much of a stumble as a theory based on having as close to 50% flip as possible if played on turn one with an "average" hand. "Average" being 1-2 C
creatures, 1-2 lands and 2-4 I/S's in hand. At 28 total, and 2 in your opening that leaves you 26/53 (or slightly over 49%) cards that flip Delver played on turn one. But with 3 or more that decreased percentage hurts a lot more. When I played Monkey Grow, 30 I/S meant that even with 4 in my opener I had that same decent percentage but with 3 or less I was over 50%, and flipping Delver on turn two on the play significantly improved your games.I mean, blue lightning bolt makes many games a breee. He and Mandrills' evasion was bonkers, far better than your big dumb dudes like Tasigur or Fish. I remember the RUG days with Shackles secretly making the deck more midrange, but they were really using Delver more as a lightning rod that would occasionally give free wins as opposed to a primary threat.
I totally get this is a very different deck despite similar card choices, and I'm hoping to hone it like I had Monkey. As opposed to one threat we ride to victory, you are saying this is closer to an actual aggro deck on your archtype wheel, with a splash of light permission and better removal? Ie, go fast fast fast against combo or big manna decks and stub their toe once (pierce), or go fast against creature decks and do the same with Path/Bolt?
HA, nice. My first (and only) Legacy tournament ever was GP NJ in 2014, and I just ported my Modern Counter-Cat deck. Finished 11-4. It seems like Legacy has shifted to be more removal-based with Push around and Goyf's stock has gone down, as it has in Modern; I prefer Counter-Cat to RUG here largely for that reason. It's interesting to see similar developments happening elsewhere.
Edit --- there's little information about this tournament/player, but haexxx took 2nd somewhere with my exact list from some weeks ago (he replaced 1x EE in the side with 1x Fiery Justice; meanwhile, we have swapped the Mesas for Foothills).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Played a bunch of games with Counter-Cat over the last few weeks and tested with 3 Chart a Course MD. Needless to say I agree with ashton and co here, that card is bonkers in that deck (and I have finally a good reason to run 18 lands ).
The only problem I have is with the counter/burn shell. I never was a fan of Shoal and I always liked my 6 burn spells to close out games (played basically with Ashtons list). I also missed more two mana counter spells, makes the big mana match-up more annoying to play, since you need to have a good clock AND the few "medicore" interaction you have to have a good shot at winning against them. Went 6-10 against Titenshift for example, since I always lacked good two mana counter spells (be it a Leak for Titan or Remand for Titan or Shift).
Either way, I neither have the time nor the possibility to play a lot of Modern currently and when I'm playing, I'm playing something Loam based or with Griselbrand/Obzedat .
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Jordan, isn't Mesa better since it hits all of our shocks? Foothills gets forest, but misses Fountain. I'm sure you've thought of this, so I'm looking for your reasoning. Kathal, I've had similar problems with my playtesting, that's why I was trying to make denial work in CC, but as Jordan said it's just a different deck, and relying on denial is more MG whereas Pierce plays better with all the 1-drop creatures. I do like a third manna leak to make finding it with our cantrips and Chart easy though.
I've been playing a Tribal Flames version of the deck for a few days, and was wondering about Disrupting Shoal. I wonder if Tron decks with eldrazis and Human decks with Cavern of Souls make it a little less good? I realize it's great and can save you against Storm, because it saved me against Storm twice. I'm wondering if maybe just a Mana Leak/Remand split would be better. I'm going to try it out that way, but wanted to know some thoughts on if Disrupting Shoal is worth it in the meta right now
Jordan, isn't Mesa better since it hits all of our shocks? Foothills gets forest, but misses Fountain. I'm sure you've thought of this, so I'm looking for your reasoning. Kathal, I've had similar problems with my playtesting, that's why I was trying to make denial work in CC, but as Jordan said it's just a different deck, and relying on denial is more MG whereas Pierce plays better with all the 1-drop creatures. I do like a third manna leak to make finding it with our cantrips and Chart easy though.
It doesn't though or we would play it still. We trimmed and then eventually dropped Mesa after adding Pool.
I've been playing a Tribal Flames version of the deck for a few days, and was wondering about Disrupting Shoal. I wonder if Tron decks with eldrazis and Human decks with Cavern of Souls make it a little less good? I realize it's great and can save you against Storm, because it saved me against Storm twice. I'm wondering if maybe just a Mana Leak/Remand split would be better. I'm going to try it out that way, but wanted to know some thoughts on if Disrupting Shoal is worth it in the meta right now
I can't personally endorse a TF version but I will say that Shoal is fine against Humans. The main reason to play the card is not to protect our threats (we're better off slamming more threats), but to stop the faster decks from getting ahead of us. Vs. Humans, hit Vial and they lose. Vs. Eldrazi, Shoal hits Map and Chalice. Because of its intended targets, Shoal doesn't care at all about Cavern. Either way, it gets boarded out in these matchups (we bring in Grudge in both cases) but it's passable in game 1.
If you try the version I've been posting with more two-mana counterspells instead of Shoal you will just screw the curve of the deck. Counter-Cat is currently built with a free counterspell in mind. You would need to do a mana overhaul (and IMO you would be building a worse deck regardless).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This makes sense and was helpful. Going to try it again with Disrupting Shoal. Still going to play Tribal Flames because I get endless joy from winning off top-deck flames, but also acknowledge you know the deck better than myself and it may be worse. Will let people know how it goes
So I built this for when I don't feel like playing dredge, and it's both a lot of fun to play and a lot of fun to hear people exclaim "what are you playing?!"
Last event I played in this weekend was a 21 man event at a convention in Detroit.
Decklist is the same as posted at the top of this page, except I swapped a sacred foundry for the temple garden and an ancient ziggurat for one fetch, and a meddling mage for the sideboard snapcaster. Also playing a noble heriarch in place of goyf 4 cuz I don't own one.
R1 : company of some kind?
I would never find out, t1 deliver flips immediately. He plays birds of paradise. His next move is a courser of kruphix that gets countered and that's the end of that game.
Game two went pretty much the same way, except he plays a ramunap excavator that I topdeck a bolt for. Turn 3 he tries to play Thalia and I counter with disrupting shoal and roll in with deliver-nacatl-mandrill.
1-0
R2 : Izzet breach-control.
Hadn't seen this one before in my meta back home. I learned that remand makes Mandrills feel bad, and that in a deck with few ways out of blood moon, spreading seas on your own lands can be effective.
I don't remember much detail at this point other than that. I won be driving him to 6 with bolt and chart a course in hand, and finding a second bolt with the chart.
2-0
R3 : Rakdos vampire tribal
I hate when I lose to decks that seem too new to be a threat, but g1 I misplayed bad. Land selection off my fetches left me without white and I would die with 3 PtE in hand. G2 I would lose to a long series of kill spells followed by a whip of erebos when I stopped drawing gas and decided I needed to see 14 lands this game.
2-1
R4 : U/R storm
G1 win by 1-drop committee. Baral on t2 eats a bolt and a pierce stops his manamorphose cold.
G2 turns out if you can only storm to 11 but have empty the Warren's, it's still pretty good.
G3 I lose by getting caught up in the moment. Storm keeps a 1 lander with combo in hand, if he gets a land off slight, but he misses. He finds a 2nd land on t3 and plays Baral. I take him to 4, and on his draw step I path Baral. He responds by comboing off, and it isn't until this morning I realize he can't cast his finishers on draw step. Ugh. Keep focused or you'll literally beat yourself.
2-2
R5 : another Izzet breach-control.
I would get him low both games, but this matchup requires the right amount of gas and counters and my luck had run out apparently. By turns 4 and 5 I was drawing dead, and he was just backing up his breach-emrakul with cheaper counters.
2-3
I borrowed the ziggurat and meddling mage ideas from the 5c humans running around, but a single zig doesn't do much work. I'll probably out the temple garden back in for it. I had taken the garden out because of the number of times I wanted a r/w land at fnm and never wanted the garden.. until yesterday when I wanted that garden like 3 times. That would figure, right?
The mage I picked because it gives me a way to slow down E-tron and prison, both of which are popular in my normal meta. Here they filled the role of bolt magnet.
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Modern! Dredge RBG
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG
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@Ashton: did you find the SB plan for Eldratron? (I insist only because I find it a terrible match up and can't manage to get it).
Edit: I had a couple of match with Chart a Course switching a couple of Sleight of hand and the first impression is positive. It's true it costs twice sleight but the effect is much more powerful. At worst it's the same as sleight but instead of putting the card bottom you fill the graveyard. Usually you have the choice of discarding your worst card keeping both your draws. If you attacked it is pure card advantage. It's slightly worse in the first turns. The worst scenario is when you took mulligan and you are looking for lands. Sleight is much more powerful in doing that. Otherwise Chart is better especially late game. I think the 1 sleight - 2 chart split can be a good one (if the list keep beeing the same as current). In any case more tests are needed.
Modern:
-1 Mandrills
-3 Shoal
-2 Pierce
-2 Snare
-1 Sleight
+1 EE
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Needle
+2 Huntmaster
+1 Tamiyo
+2 Spreading Seas
And here's my side. Still playing the same 60.
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Spreading Seas
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Negate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
2 Pyroclasm
-1 Mandrills. The slowest of our threats in this matchup since Eldrazi doesn't interact with us the old fashioned way; they stick lock pieces instead of throwing removal. Relic also makes it pricey to cast and it's outclassed by Smasher and Endbringer. Goyf can force Relic pops by growing at a much faster rate than it can exile, and it grows to 5/6 in this matchup which is a crucial size, so it's better than Mandrills. We can also follow a one-drop with it pretty easily which is a solid recipe for success against this deck. Last reason to cut the Drills instead of an instant/sorcery is Delver (we really want him to flip and are already low on i/s with this plan).
-1 Sleight. Our worst cantrip here and another card we don't want to draw under Chalice. Edit -- Kelsey says she would not board out Sleight.
+1 EE, +2 Grudge. For Chalice. EE is our out to Chalice on 1 and another on 2. Grudge also kills Map/Collar/Skull etc. as needed.
+1 Needle. A lot of targets here. Can hit Map early, Quarter late, and Karn/Bringer/Collar/Ballista etc. in between.
+2 Huntmaster. A castable threat through both Chalice and Relic. Beats the deck single-handedly if Eldrazi can't answer it or apply a lot of pressure fast. They're light on removal so Hunt is really great here. Stabilizes Goyf-induced board stalls by helping pick off Smasher/TKS with Bolt.
+1 Tamiyo. Neutralizes threats so we can get in and kill with ground guys. Plus mode is also great when we all have smaller creatures (i.e. Nacatls and Reshapers). Ultimate actually wins this matchup because Eldrazi doesn't beat us when we draw three and don't care about GQ anymore. Careful not to run her into Smashers.
+2 Seas. Slow and kind of unreliable but stops some great hands and can slow others way down. Yeah, there are games where they have another of the same Tron piece and Seas does nothing, but I have won more games with it than I've lost. Seas rules with pressure. It also hits tapped Quarters or a Sea Gate. If opponents have lots of mana hitting SGW early is a priority because Eldrazi has awful recovery without it, whereas it's easy for us to pull further ahead with cantrips in a topdeck war of sorts. In my experience many games boil down to this sort of state after we Path their guys and they Dismember/trade with ours. Try to exchange resources against the deck when possible and prioritize stopping their two-for-ones cold with Mana Leak (stuff like Karn, AID).
Sorry for the late response and hope this helps!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Modern:
Do you sometimes side out completely Wild Nacatl? Played my first tournament with the deck a week ago including two matches against UW Control (4 Spreading Seas) and 1 against Bant Toolbox (4 Ghost Quarters) and they were like never 3/3, ever.
Also, just read Jordan's article on cantrips, if I get it well, so far, Opt is not replacing Sleight of Hand, correct? (unless testing proves otherwise obviously)
We're still testing Opt, but so far it seems like Sleight isn't going anywhere. We've been trying a Chart over Sleight #3 and an Opt over Scour #2. Chart continues to impress. We found this deck really only wants two instant-speed, one-mana cantrips. Scour does a lot more for us than Opt does, though. We want to be casting selection cantrips on our main phase most of the time.
Going forward we will probably settle on something like this:
-1 Sleight
+1 Chart
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
When I previously played the deck, I always wanted a card draw of some form (there is a reason, why Cruise was so good). When I toyed around with Grixis Delver (post Cruise ban) I played two Night's Whisper. While the life loss hurts in a deck with little to no life gain, I liked them a lot. They allowed you to refuel after the early game and you had a third value chain besides K-Command + Snappy or Tasigur.
However, whenever I played with Counter-Cat, due to the version I played (17 lands, more burn, a little bit lower to the ground than Ashtions version) a card like Night's Whisper was simply not possible to add to the list. Why? Even if there wouldn't be off colour, I needed 3 lands to get the full value out of a draw 2 for 2. Otherwise, I never had protection up, which is rather harsh for a deck with not many beaters.
This is why I'm a little bit sceptical but optimistic at the same time regarding Chart. Sceptical, cause I think it will lead to awkward situations more often than not (needing to wait till turn 4 or longer to be able to cast it and than have the possible problem with sacrificing a creature to get the value), however, the effect is very strong in such a deck.
So if I would pick up the deck again (currently slamming Griselbrand and Eternal Command) I would start with 2 of them in the maindeck and than work from there.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Though, that card is bonkers with Pyro
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Chart is for card advantage. So it's ok to cast it mid-late game. It's not good turn two-three even if I can see it cast if your creatures are protected by shoal (who gains a bit of value with it since chart negates the downside of exiling a card). I'm testing 2 now and I like them a lot (even when I have to discard).
Modern:
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (17)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Thought Scour
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Chart a Course
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
2 Spreading Seas
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Negate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
http://modernnexus.com/chart-toppers-counter-cat-after-ixalan/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I wanted to give it a try, but still didn't have time...
Modern:
@Mike: Spyglass too expensive and we know what to name. PN is here to address resolved threats like walkers or manlands, not attack the opponent's options as with Thoughtseize or Spyglass.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
As for Monkey comparisons: CC is a different deck, so expect some aspects to be different. Goyf and Mandrills are the cleanup crew for us, not our primary threats. We win a lot of games just with one-drops and Pierce is invaluable in those games. I don't know how you stumbled upon that number, seems arbitrary. Care to share? But my own cutoff is 25. FWIW, early Delver decks in Modern played as few as 22 i/s.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
creatures, 1-2 lands and 2-4 I/S's in hand. At 28 total, and 2 in your opening that leaves you 26/53 (or slightly over 49%) cards that flip Delver played on turn one. But with 3 or more that decreased percentage hurts a lot more. When I played Monkey Grow, 30 I/S meant that even with 4 in my opener I had that same decent percentage but with 3 or less I was over 50%, and flipping Delver on turn two on the play significantly improved your games.I mean, blue lightning bolt makes many games a breee. He and Mandrills' evasion was bonkers, far better than your big dumb dudes like Tasigur or Fish. I remember the RUG days with Shackles secretly making the deck more midrange, but they were really using Delver more as a lightning rod that would occasionally give free wins as opposed to a primary threat.
I totally get this is a very different deck despite similar card choices, and I'm hoping to hone it like I had Monkey. As opposed to one threat we ride to victory, you are saying this is closer to an actual aggro deck on your archtype wheel, with a splash of light permission and better removal? Ie, go fast fast fast against combo or big manna decks and stub their toe once (pierce), or go fast against creature decks and do the same with Path/Bolt?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116734
Edit --- there's little information about this tournament/player, but haexxx took 2nd somewhere with my exact list from some weeks ago (he replaced 1x EE in the side with 1x Fiery Justice; meanwhile, we have swapped the Mesas for Foothills).
https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/deck-decklist-by-haexxx-711136
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The only problem I have is with the counter/burn shell. I never was a fan of Shoal and I always liked my 6 burn spells to close out games (played basically with Ashtons list). I also missed more two mana counter spells, makes the big mana match-up more annoying to play, since you need to have a good clock AND the few "medicore" interaction you have to have a good shot at winning against them. Went 6-10 against Titenshift for example, since I always lacked good two mana counter spells (be it a Leak for Titan or Remand for Titan or Shift).
Either way, I neither have the time nor the possibility to play a lot of Modern currently and when I'm playing, I'm playing something Loam based or with Griselbrand/Obzedat .
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If you try the version I've been posting with more two-mana counterspells instead of Shoal you will just screw the curve of the deck. Counter-Cat is currently built with a free counterspell in mind. You would need to do a mana overhaul (and IMO you would be building a worse deck regardless).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Also, when does Snapcaster Mage come in? When you don't need three Paths?
Maybe sideboarding is something I'll have to get used to here
Last event I played in this weekend was a 21 man event at a convention in Detroit.
Decklist is the same as posted at the top of this page, except I swapped a sacred foundry for the temple garden and an ancient ziggurat for one fetch, and a meddling mage for the sideboard snapcaster. Also playing a noble heriarch in place of goyf 4 cuz I don't own one.
R1 : company of some kind?
I would never find out, t1 deliver flips immediately. He plays birds of paradise. His next move is a courser of kruphix that gets countered and that's the end of that game.
Game two went pretty much the same way, except he plays a ramunap excavator that I topdeck a bolt for. Turn 3 he tries to play Thalia and I counter with disrupting shoal and roll in with deliver-nacatl-mandrill.
1-0
R2 : Izzet breach-control.
Hadn't seen this one before in my meta back home. I learned that remand makes Mandrills feel bad, and that in a deck with few ways out of blood moon, spreading seas on your own lands can be effective.
I don't remember much detail at this point other than that. I won be driving him to 6 with bolt and chart a course in hand, and finding a second bolt with the chart.
2-0
R3 : Rakdos vampire tribal
I hate when I lose to decks that seem too new to be a threat, but g1 I misplayed bad. Land selection off my fetches left me without white and I would die with 3 PtE in hand. G2 I would lose to a long series of kill spells followed by a whip of erebos when I stopped drawing gas and decided I needed to see 14 lands this game.
2-1
R4 : U/R storm
G1 win by 1-drop committee. Baral on t2 eats a bolt and a pierce stops his manamorphose cold.
G2 turns out if you can only storm to 11 but have empty the Warren's, it's still pretty good.
G3 I lose by getting caught up in the moment. Storm keeps a 1 lander with combo in hand, if he gets a land off slight, but he misses. He finds a 2nd land on t3 and plays Baral. I take him to 4, and on his draw step I path Baral. He responds by comboing off, and it isn't until this morning I realize he can't cast his finishers on draw step. Ugh. Keep focused or you'll literally beat yourself.
2-2
R5 : another Izzet breach-control.
I would get him low both games, but this matchup requires the right amount of gas and counters and my luck had run out apparently. By turns 4 and 5 I was drawing dead, and he was just backing up his breach-emrakul with cheaper counters.
2-3
I borrowed the ziggurat and meddling mage ideas from the 5c humans running around, but a single zig doesn't do much work. I'll probably out the temple garden back in for it. I had taken the garden out because of the number of times I wanted a r/w land at fnm and never wanted the garden.. until yesterday when I wanted that garden like 3 times. That would figure, right?
The mage I picked because it gives me a way to slow down E-tron and prison, both of which are popular in my normal meta. Here they filled the role of bolt magnet.
Modern! Burn (RW, RWG, RBG , RB ... what can I say, I like variety in my BBQ )
Legacy! Burn RW
EDH! Uril the Miststalker RWG