Ashton, if you were to play Counter Cat now, what would your list be? Also, Kathal, if you would.
Counter-Cat sees play twice a week, although not by me personally. I do get to see it in action and manage the list, and actually think it's really well-positioned right now. Path to Exile is great in this metagame and CC has the fast Zoo starts that can stomp linear decks. Current:
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Ashton, if you were to play Counter Cat now, what would your list be? Also, Kathal, if you would.
I will be honest here, I cannot give you any meaningful list, since I simply have no exact knowledge about how to approach the metagame with a Delver based deck.
The last time I played Counter-Cat (way back in June) something like Bant Eldrazi, Junk or Dredge wasn't as prominante as it was now and I was able to concentrate on stuff like Jeskai Nahiri, Jund, Affinity, Suicide Zoo, Burn and co, which are different decks than the current ones.
However, I knew which cards I would want to play: 1-2 Rancor MD (depends on the numbers of Mandrills), 1-2 Send to Sleep MD, 2-3 Deflecting Palms SB, 2 Isochron Szepter SB and no Simic/Boros Charm MD.
Other cards I would consider: Threads of Disloyality (Jund/BGx), Negate, Stubborn Denial (depends on the exact creature configuration), Spread Sees (If GW Tron becomes a thing), Surgical Extraction (if I want more help in the Dredge match-up), SB Snappies (vs Midrange/Control), SB Spell Pierces or something like SB Burn.
However, I would need to get several test games in before I would be able to post a list, which wouldn't be a brainfart. Yes, I have a good understanding of that deck and especially what it offers regarding the metagame, but this still doesn't compensate the fact, that I have not played with Counter-Cat for 5 months.
Hence, my only suggestion would be: Play Ashtons list or at least follow his build.
I know Kathal will have some viewpoints that differ pretty strongly from my own and that's fine. Kels and me are really sold on this list though.
The difference between our playstyles is pretty simple: I like to play a little bit mre aggro-ish, while you like to go a little bit more midrangey. You see this especially in our SBs. While you value something like Huntmasters pretty high, I want Threads of Disloyality instead in the BGx match-ups. You want the basic Forest MD while I dislike it quite a lot.
It is just the result of our different playstyles, nothing else ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I have been testing Ashton's list with a few tweeks for the last two weeks and have won both the weekly modern fnms. Just 12-mans, but valuable testing as the meta is all good players, even if the occasional Sun and Moon pops up. Icouldn'tflip delverenough or protect my board so i made the following changes:
-1 Hoots
+1 leak
Not enough data to alter the board, although Sceptre imprinting Path feels so good against creatures.
I have been following this deck for a little while, bought into it about a couple weeks ago. Played it at 2 FNM's and the only changes I made to the deck from the Modern Nexus previously updated list(The one in your RUG Delver article) was - 2 Huntmaster of the fells in the SB for +2 Thunderbreak Regent. As well as some khans fetchs for Arid mesa and Scalding Tarn.
I like Thunderbreak Regent more in Counter Cat as opposed to RUG Delver as most times I bring it in in long grindy matchups where you only need a couple more points of damage to end the game. I think Huntmaster of the fells is better in the RUG Delver deck since you can go more of a long and grindy game and protect it better. Whereas Counter Cat I like the regent more, as it also helps a lot vs decks that bring in blood moon against you since you can still cast it. I also like that it has a decent body as well as flying allowing you to block in those rare occasions as well as avoiding abrupt decay and lightning bolt. It still gets hit by path to exile but most times they will path your early threats and not see this card coming.
I like the change you recently put on Modern Nexus of -2 Boros Charm and +2 Surgical Extraction in the SB I am going to get those asap.I still have a lot to learn with this deck since I am fairly new to it and my LGS is filled with much more experienced players than I. But I thought I would throw out this suggestion since I haven't seen any discussion about it so far. I hope to see more discussion on here on this deck and see it do well.
I have been following this deck for a little while, bought into it about a couple weeks ago. Played it at 2 FNM's and the only changes I made to the deck from the Modern Nexus previously updated list(The one in your RUG Delver article) was - 2 Huntmaster of the fells in the SB for +2 Thunderbreak Regent. As well as some khans fetchs for Arid mesa and Scalding Tarn.
I like Thunderbreak Regent more in Counter Cat as opposed to RUG Delver as most times I bring it in in long grindy matchups where you only need a couple more points of damage to end the game. I think Huntmaster of the fells is better in the RUG Delver deck since you can go more of a long and grindy game and protect it better. Whereas Counter Cat I like the regent more, as it also helps a lot vs decks that bring in blood moon against you since you can still cast it. I also like that it has a decent body as well as flying allowing you to block in those rare occasions as well as avoiding abrupt decay and lightning bolt. It still gets hit by path to exile but most times they will path your early threats and not see this card coming.
I like the change you recently put on Modern Nexus of -2 Boros Charm and +2 Surgical Extraction in the SB I am going to get those asap.I still have a lot to learn with this deck since I am fairly new to it and my LGS is filled with much more experienced players than I. But I thought I would throw out this suggestion since I haven't seen any discussion about it so far. I hope to see more discussion on here on this deck and see it do well.
My problems with Thunderbreak:
- We fetch out Forest ASAP against decks that might have Moon, so Huntmaster is actually easy to cast in those matchups.
- Huntmaster synergizes better with Growth, which incidentally is great against Moon decks, which run Bolt effects.
- Huntmaster has a lot of utility against creature decks by being a one-card win-condition against them.
- It can be hard to get to RR in this deck if opponents don't Moon us. One Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge/Stone Rain and Regent is suddenly uncastable for the rest of the game, whereas Huntmaster comes down almost every time as long as we have four lands. Even if we get Path'd any number of times, assuming we use all our mana effectively (which is a key to winning with this deck), we'll need to fetch-shock twice to get to RR, and that doesn't include the fetch-shock we need to get our white online.
I'll admit that I do like Regent's applications better than Huntmaster against midrange, where hitting once and then dying to removal is very likely to seal the deal for us, especially with all the burn we have post-board. But all in all I don't think it shines against enough matchups to warrant inclusion over Huntmaster, who can steal games on his own against just about every fair deck if unchecked, and who is easy to protect in this deck (especially since, as you mentioned, our four drops usually come down after opponents exhaust their removal).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have been testing out Tamiyo, Field Researcher in the sideboard and the early results are promising. Against a mono wrath control deck she literally drew me 8 cards. Against Jund she is able to get blockers out of the way, protect herself, and grind card advantage. Time will tell if I like her better than huntmaster of the fells.
I have been testing out Tamiyo, Field Researcher in the sideboard and the early results are promising. Against a mono wrath control deck she literally drew me 8 cards. Against Jund she is able to get blockers out of the way, protect herself, and grind card advantage. Time will tell if I like her better than huntmaster of the fells.
I don't like her. The + ability really only works when we're already winning. Her best mode is definitely -2, but I think we might as well run Send to Sleep at that point (something Kathal already does). It stinks that after Sleeping with her once she's dead to Lightning Bolt, and after Sleeping twice she's dead period.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think a big part of my loss was not preparing my matchups. The Dredge plan needs some work, for instance, something I didn't know going in because I hadn't tested it.
Regardless, here's my list and sideboard plans for the event in case anyone wants them:
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Ashton, does the loss of probe push us more towards Cat? Or, do you think Fatal Push further hurts this deck since we play less monkeys in exchange for Cat? I was thinking we could up the Pierce count to fight push, and either switch back to boros charm or run simic charm as our utility two drop. Thoughts?
Ashton, does the loss of probe push us more towards Cat? Or, do you think Fatal Push further hurts this deck since we play less monkeys in exchange for Cat? I was thinking we could up the Pierce count to fight push, and either switch back to boros charm or run simic charm as our utility two drop. Thoughts?
It seems on the surface like CC should be fine post-ban because it only plays two Probes. But the Probes are really the only sorceries I feel absolutely comfortable playing in this deck. Six is the sweet spot to grow Goyf early.
We tried a bunch of stuff instead of the Probes. Bauble's not great because our i/s count is already quite low. Tarfire blows because we have way better removal in these colors. Seal of Fire fails both of these tests. We tried Scour too, but it was too inconsistent at dumping the right card type. So we need another sorcery. Traverse is bad because it's better to play three Mandrills than two and have a Traverse engine in the deck, plus we don't benefit enough from the basic search function on only two, and can't realistically include Reveler in the side because RR is brutal (if we get Quartered, Tec Edged, or Seas'd once it's off for the game).
Right now we're playing two Sleight of Hand. They actually seem decent. Kelsey likes them. Our consensus so far is that Sleight is worse than Probe in turns 1-3 and better in turns 3+. Rest of the decklist is the same. More news to come as the deck gets broken in.
On Push: I don't see Push dramatically warping Modern. It will just allow some new midrange decks (i.e. Sultai) or control decks (i.e. Esper) to occupy some of the space currently taken up almost exclusively by Jund and Abzan.
Counter-Cat feels this shift more than MG though because Push makes Mutagenic Growth much worse when it shows up over Bolt.
Lately the biggest problem we've encountered with CC is that it doesn't have a great anti-midrange option. Huntmaster is a bit clunky at more than two copies and doesn't take the game away from opponents running a lot of removal. Reveler and most Walkers are off-limits. The only walker we'd want is Nahiri anyway and we definitely don't have room for Emrakul if we can only squeeze in two copies. Scepter is what we currently play, as it helps in other matchups. But creature decks are easy for us anyway so I'm looking to replace it with something more obviously anti-midrange. We might just want two more Snaps in the side. Open to suggestions!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It can and it did (4 Bolts, 2 Helix, 4 Tribal Flames, 3 Paths). However, makes the whole manabase more wonky + the Zoo approach is better imo, since it can run Noble Hierarch.
Regarding the Probe ban, it doesn't affect me at all, never liked that card to begin with in this shell.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm not playing Counter Cat currently, running Ritual Gifts instead.
Regarding Control decks, the biggest problem was always, that I could never win the lategame (regardless of which bomb you might have) since I play the more aggressive shell. Hence, I sticked with Scepter as "lategame" plan, even though it is not that great. Otherwise, the 4 mana Gideon is something I looked into, but double W is a real issue for this deck. Otherwise, the plan vs control was always the same: get some early beats in and finish it off with burn (also a reason, why I run 7 burn spells MD). Doesn't really work that well :/
Regarding Midrange, my version is better vs it both because of the higher burn count and especially the Rancors (run 2 of them), which just makes the Goyf stalemate non existent.
I cannot offer you a list, since the deck is currently not built together (needed the pieces somewhere else) + my paper list is roughly 200km away :/
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Lately the biggest problem we've encountered with CC is that it doesn't have a great anti-midrange option. Huntmaster is a bit clunky at more than two copies and doesn't take the game away from opponents running a lot of removal. Reveler and most Walkers are off-limits. The only walker we'd want is Nahiri anyway and we definitely don't have room for Emrakul if we can only squeeze in two copies. Scepter is what we currently play, as it helps in other matchups. But creature decks are easy for us anyway so I'm looking to replace it with something more obviously anti-midrange. We might just want two more Snaps in the side. Open to suggestions!
Despite my blowout RPTQ performance last December, I maintain a lot of love for Counter-Cat. The deck is a blast to play and surprisingly resilient in metagames not brimming with Chalice of the Void and Conflagrate.
It’s rare that my goodstuff decks benefit significantly from new expansions, since I tend to favor tempo strategies full of too-good commons over midrange ones packing obviously pushed mythics. The revolt mechanic excited me on this front when it was revealed. Aether Revolt didn’t disappoint, bringing Counter-Cat an exciting tool to combat the midrange strategies it struggled to beat before: Renegade Rallier.
Tempo and Attrition
Generally, Modern cards that provide card advantage cost a lot of mana. Esper Charm, the format’s most recent card advantage staple, costs three mana. So does Painful Truths, a card Jund and Grixis Delver have been known to sideboard for grindy mirrors. Mana can be loosely translated to tempo, since players get to play a single land each turn and must spend their limited resources wisely in a format as fast as Modern. Ancestral Vision, the apparent exception to the cards-cost-mana rule, still costs pilots plenty of tempo, as it refuses to resolves until the fourth turn after it’s been suspended.
Similarly, tempo-positive spells in Modern usually come with card disadvantage. Simian Spirit Guide and Desperate Ritual are classic examples of spells that temporarily put players up a turn in mana development, but cost them a card, essentially putting them down a turn in card economy. Collective Brutality embodies this principle very clearly, doing way more than a spell should for just two mana, but requiring discards to escalate.
Enter Renegade Rallier, a creature that promises both card advantage and tempo. Three mana can seem like a lot in a deck that slings 3/3s for only one, but it’s nothing compared with Snapcaster Mage, the most obvious analog to Rallier in Modern. Snapcaster is one of the few cards in Modern that provides card advantage and tempo, advancing the board with a 2/1 for a tack-on price of 1U while netting players a used spell for its mana cost. 1U, too, is too much to pay for a vanilla 2/1 in Modern. But with the added benefit of card advantage, it becomes acceptable.
Rallier ups the ante. 1GW for a 3/2 is arguably a worse rate than 1U for a 2/1, although marginally so. Kird Ape‘s laughable status as a clock compared with Nacatl and Delver attest to the difference between two and three power. Rallier’s two toughness also happens to be in the sweet spot for Mutagenic Growth to save him from Lightning Bolt. Regardless, whatever mana is lost paying for his body, Rallier makes up for with his ability, which doesn’t require us to pay mana for the dead creature we target.
Rallier in Practice
Consider giving a one-mana spell flashback with Snapcaster Mage. 1UR for a 2/1 and a Lightning Bolt is a great rate, in part because Bolt itself has such an aggressive rate. Incidentally, Counter-Cat’s creatures also possess such rates. In many matchups, I think 1GW for a 3/2 and a 3/3 is significantly better than the same amount of mana for just one body. If we’re recurring Tarmogoyf and not Wild Nacatl, the tempo we gain becomes even more significant—in that scenario, we’re basically casting Goyf (1G) and Nacatl (W) and going up a card for free. In late-game situations where mana abounds, Rallier can even recur Snapcaster Mage and put us up more cards—one spell for two bodies and a Path to Exile might as well be Painful Truths without the life loss.
In terms of reliability, I have found Rallier to function well at two copies. Counter-Cat runs 12 fetchlands, which account for two-thirds of the skimpy manabase. Rallier performs best in the late-game, by which time some of those fetches can become dead as we fetch out our lands. The creature does a fine job turning them back on to some degree.
Ideal Uses
As mentioned, Rallier’s primary function in the Counter-Cat sideboard is to shore up attrition matchups. The deck can struggle against Grixis openers featuring Bolt, Push, and Terminate; sometimes, those draws just kill all our threats and make it hard to bounce back before opponents manage to stabilize. No more! Opponents answering us one-for-one are bound to start doubting their ways when Rallier comes down and invalidates their most recent play, all while adding to the board himself.
The creature also has a “hidden mode” (man, do I love scare-quoting that phrase) of ramping us by one, which can prove relevant against linear decks or in mana-light situations. Sometimes, putting some pressure on the board without going down a card is exactly what the doctor ordered. Cracking a fetch on turn three, resolving Rallier, and recurring that fetch is the Selesyna warrior’s version of Probe-Snap-Probe, and it’s great with Huntmaster of the Fells, Isochron Scepter, Snapcaster Mage, or a bunch of two-mana spells in hand.
Diversifying Angles of Attack
Another aspect I like about Rallier is how it gives Counter-Cat even more options. Gaining access to another midrange hoser under four mana lets us cut Isochron Scepter down to one copy, which makes the artifact more of a gotcha! card and less of a fragile package. Opponents must also sequence their removal differently to play around Rallier, so as not to trigger revolt on our turn. Forcing opponents to sequence disruption in awkward ways is exactly what Counter-Cat wants to do, since it allows us to dictate the pace of the game and maximize blowouts with our conditional coutermagic.
A Note on Sleight
Rather than rebuild Counter-Cat from the ground up like I did with Temur Delver after the Probe ban, I stuck with the heavy core and looked for replacements. Unfortunately, Counter-Cat really wants six one-(or less)-mana sorceries to help remove Tarmogoyf from Bolt range. I tried a few cards in the deck over Gitaxian Probe, including the revolt-enabling Mishra’s Bauble. Traverse was too unreliable with the focus on Hooting Mandrills; Thought Scour didn’t bin the right card types often enough; Bauble was too awkward with Delver in a deck already dangerously low on instants and sorceries.
I settled on Sleight of Hand, the strongest generic blue cantrip in Modern after Serum Visions. So far, I haven’t been too unimpressed. Sleight is better than Probe in situations where we have mana to spare, but worse when we’re light on lands. The cantrip is especially bad when we draw multiple nonblue lands naturally (i.e. Temple Garden and Forest) and have to ration out the mana from a lone Steam Vents on Bolts, Visions, Sleights, and permission spells.
One benefit of Sleight is it allows us to keep a wider range of hands, since its selection effect gets us two cards deeper to a second land drop. One-landers with Probe and no Visions were almost always mulligans. The jury’s still out, but I’m sticking with the Sleights for now.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Is Kelsi still playing Counter-Cat? Any relevant data to add?
Kelsey plays it 2-3 times a week and does really well. We've made some changes to accommodate for Death's Shadow Jund (which is a great matchup) and the metagame shifting away from Bolts.
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-3 Mutagenic Growth
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Arid Mesa
-1 Destructive Revelry (SB)
-1 Isochron Scepter (SB)
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Thought Scour
+1 Sleight of Hand
+1 Breeding Pool
+2 Engineered Explosives (SB)
We cut Muta to reach a critical mass of blue spells and support Disrupting Shoal. Shoal is great against the faster linear decks Modern is known for and also a beating against DSJ, where it slows their early development and can easily be hard-cast to blow them out in the mid-game (i.e. countering Goyf or Shadow after they Traverse for it). Shoal counters Fatal Push, too, which makes Goyf more reliable than Muta right now when it comes to protecting our threats.
Hooting Mandrills is just crazy right now. A 4/4 with trample that doesn't really die to anything is so good. Most decks answer delve fatties with Lingering Souls, but Mandrills doesn't care about 1/1 Spirits. He's Push- and Decay-proof and we run plenty of him. Thought Scour was added as an unexciting extra blue spell, but it does accelerate into Mandrills earlier, let us hold up our countermagic (more relevant with Shoal in the deck), and stock the graveyard for Rallier.
Snapcaster became Sleight #3. This card is superb whenever we have extra mana laying around, and not even so bad when we're trying to find more lands, since it helps get to them right away. Snap was too clunky in the latter scenario and our attrition/midrange plans get shored up by Rallier anyway.
Mesa #3 became Pool. Helps cast our UU spells and gives us a stronger long-game. Pool is a great third land but definitely not one we want to see early. We like it though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@ashtonkutcher: This is prolly gonna be a odd question, but since i wanted to try and mainboard 4 Ghost Quarters i was wondering if you or someone else had tried this before and could tell me your results. I came here in hopes someone might have tried before so i could have a place to start with someone else's previous experience or just overall suggestions. Im wondering if it would be possible or would i have to warp the mana base too much or make a new one completely to accommodate them. I plan on trying it despite knowing its possibility a horrible idea. I feel if i could make it work the pay off would be worth the trouble of experimenting.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Played with 4 QG at GP Prag 2013(?) in UR Delver tempo.
Was decent, back than, today it might be better but the tempo decks, which could play it have an abyssal Death Shadow match-up, as long as you do not run Shoal.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And no, you cannot play 4 GQ in Counter-Cat, it is simply not possible.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
@ashtonkutcher: This is prolly gonna be a odd question, but since i wanted to try and mainboard 4 Ghost Quarters i was wondering if you or someone else had tried this before and could tell me your results. I came here in hopes someone might have tried before so i could have a place to start with someone else's previous experience or just overall suggestions. Im wondering if it would be possible or would i have to warp the mana base too much or make a new one completely to accommodate them. I plan on trying it despite knowing its possibility a horrible idea. I feel if i could make it work the pay off would be worth the trouble of experimenting.
1. GQ is tempo-negative, costing you a land drop and your opponent none
2. Delver decks run many one-mana spells, meaning a land that taps for C is often not going to cast anything
3. That means you need to run GQ in addition to your normal lands to make it work
4. That means going from 18 lands to 22 and making Delver much worse at flipping
It would never work in this deck but feel free to try. The card you want is Spreading Seas in the sideboard.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Mainboard is the same as in the post above. Rallier never quite did what we wanted it to. Would play Snaps in this slot if we wanted a similar card but I don't think we do right now. We tested the aggressive matchups to see if Helix was necessary without Probe and Muta and found it wasn't (Shoal also helps a lot in these matchups). Dredge is a harder matchup, and Kelsey finds Finks decks really annoying, so we started running a Cage. Dispel is just a sweet bullet to have in the board right now. It's awesome against Gifts Storm, Ad Nauseam, Coco/Chord, and any flavor of stack-interaction deck, including Grixis Shadow. Opponents are also liable to have more removal post-board so Dispel almost always gets better after siding.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
So now the deck is pretty much temur delver which dropped the moon plan in exchange for path to exile (since nacatl could be replaced with a couple of narnam renegade another mandrill and maybe a scour). Very controllish comparing it to the old one. I'll try it.
EDIT: A friend of mine needed a deck for an aggro meta (elves, merfolks, cheeri0s, company, etc.) and I convinced him to try Counter-Cats. We ended up building the Aggro version due to the greater pesence of removal. Here's the list:
Kozilek's return was a concession to burrenton forge tender and/or master of waves.
He managed to 4-0 against Jeskai midrange, GW Company, Bant Knightfall and BG Tron.
On saturday he brought it to a side event of GP Bologna (about 60 people, 4 turns and prizes for number of victories) and he made 3-1, winning against Death's Shadow Jund, BW Tokens and Eldrazi & Taxes, losing only to a UB Control which (I quote his opponent) "was tuned to slay tron decks".
So we were pretty happy of the deck ad we will keep up this way.
I brought this deck to TNM tonight and it felt incredible. My first time playing non-Colorless Eldrazi at any kind of event in months. Still the same list but we're going to drop the Foothills for a third Tarn; we often want that land to fetch blue and have Pool out already. We're also thinking about changing Cage out for another card in the side. Realistically it could be anything at this point; haven't done enough testing to know what needs the slot most. A second Surgical might be better though.
@Mikefon: honestly I think Path is so hot right now that this deck is a good deal better than Temur Delver. There are also so many removal-light linear decks in Modern that Nacatl is often just a pre-flipped Delver. It's also markedly better in many creature matchups, where 3/3 walls early attackers and applies acceptable pressure, kind of like a mini-Goyf. Excited to play more with Counter-Cat in the near future!
Edit -- @Mikefon again: I advise heavily against Helix, Muta, and Rancor (would you play this card in Temur Delver?). Helix is just bad in this deck now without Probe. We don't need it and it makes our mana so much worse. You can't really run Pool with Helix in the deck for example. Bolt is at all-time lows so Muta is pretty weak. Shoal covers a lot of the same ground and has far wider applications.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Rancor was effectively bad and was quickly replaced by a tarfire. Actually we kept that list due to local meta calls: elves, company, zoo, etc plus the fact that controls are "banned" by the policy of the shop that runs 40 min turns (too many draws if you play that kinds of decks) make that list very solid (no living end, storm or ad nauseam either).
Either online or in a wider/unknown meta that list cant't win much nowadays and I'd surely play a counter heavier list. I'm trying on cockatrice your list and I like it a lot.
Edit: Can't helix be useful against combo deck such as company or storm as additional spot removals? In addition sometimes I miss the burn reach it gave.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
3 Mutagenic Growth
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
I know Kathal will have some viewpoints that differ pretty strongly from my own and that's fine. Kels and me are really sold on this list though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I will be honest here, I cannot give you any meaningful list, since I simply have no exact knowledge about how to approach the metagame with a Delver based deck.
The last time I played Counter-Cat (way back in June) something like Bant Eldrazi, Junk or Dredge wasn't as prominante as it was now and I was able to concentrate on stuff like Jeskai Nahiri, Jund, Affinity, Suicide Zoo, Burn and co, which are different decks than the current ones.
However, I knew which cards I would want to play: 1-2 Rancor MD (depends on the numbers of Mandrills), 1-2 Send to Sleep MD, 2-3 Deflecting Palms SB, 2 Isochron Szepter SB and no Simic/Boros Charm MD.
Other cards I would consider: Threads of Disloyality (Jund/BGx), Negate, Stubborn Denial (depends on the exact creature configuration), Spread Sees (If GW Tron becomes a thing), Surgical Extraction (if I want more help in the Dredge match-up), SB Snappies (vs Midrange/Control), SB Spell Pierces or something like SB Burn.
However, I would need to get several test games in before I would be able to post a list, which wouldn't be a brainfart. Yes, I have a good understanding of that deck and especially what it offers regarding the metagame, but this still doesn't compensate the fact, that I have not played with Counter-Cat for 5 months.
Hence, my only suggestion would be: Play Ashtons list or at least follow his build.
The difference between our playstyles is pretty simple: I like to play a little bit mre aggro-ish, while you like to go a little bit more midrangey. You see this especially in our SBs. While you value something like Huntmasters pretty high, I want Threads of Disloyality instead in the BGx match-ups. You want the basic Forest MD while I dislike it quite a lot.
It is just the result of our different playstyles, nothing else ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
-1 Hoots
+1 leak
Not enough data to alter the board, although Sceptre imprinting Path feels so good against creatures.
I like Thunderbreak Regent more in Counter Cat as opposed to RUG Delver as most times I bring it in in long grindy matchups where you only need a couple more points of damage to end the game. I think Huntmaster of the fells is better in the RUG Delver deck since you can go more of a long and grindy game and protect it better. Whereas Counter Cat I like the regent more, as it also helps a lot vs decks that bring in blood moon against you since you can still cast it. I also like that it has a decent body as well as flying allowing you to block in those rare occasions as well as avoiding abrupt decay and lightning bolt. It still gets hit by path to exile but most times they will path your early threats and not see this card coming.
I like the change you recently put on Modern Nexus of -2 Boros Charm and +2 Surgical Extraction in the SB I am going to get those asap.I still have a lot to learn with this deck since I am fairly new to it and my LGS is filled with much more experienced players than I. But I thought I would throw out this suggestion since I haven't seen any discussion about it so far. I hope to see more discussion on here on this deck and see it do well.
- We fetch out Forest ASAP against decks that might have Moon, so Huntmaster is actually easy to cast in those matchups.
- Huntmaster synergizes better with Growth, which incidentally is great against Moon decks, which run Bolt effects.
- Huntmaster has a lot of utility against creature decks by being a one-card win-condition against them.
- It can be hard to get to RR in this deck if opponents don't Moon us. One Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge/Stone Rain and Regent is suddenly uncastable for the rest of the game, whereas Huntmaster comes down almost every time as long as we have four lands. Even if we get Path'd any number of times, assuming we use all our mana effectively (which is a key to winning with this deck), we'll need to fetch-shock twice to get to RR, and that doesn't include the fetch-shock we need to get our white online.
I'll admit that I do like Regent's applications better than Huntmaster against midrange, where hitting once and then dying to removal is very likely to seal the deal for us, especially with all the burn we have post-board. But all in all I don't think it shines against enough matchups to warrant inclusion over Huntmaster, who can steal games on his own against just about every fair deck if unchecked, and who is easy to protect in this deck (especially since, as you mentioned, our four drops usually come down after opponents exhaust their removal).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I think a big part of my loss was not preparing my matchups. The Dredge plan needs some work, for instance, something I didn't know going in because I hadn't tested it.
Regardless, here's my list and sideboard plans for the event in case anyone wants them:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
AGGRO (7)
Dredge (6)
-2 Mana Leak
-2 Spell Snare
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Lightning Helix
+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Surgical Extraction
Bant Eldrazi (9)
-1 Mandrills
-2 Leak
-2 Pierce
-2 Snare
-2 Probe
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Pyroclasm
Burn (6)
-4 Path
-2 Probe
+2 Hunt
+2 Helix
+2 Pyroclasm
Infect (9)
-3 Growth
-2 Pierce
-2 Snare
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Helix
+2 Pyro
Death’s Shadow (4-6)
-1 Mandrills
-3 Muta
+2 Hunt
+2 Helix
(if steppe lynx over Goyf:
-2 Snare
+2 Pyro)
UR Kiln Fiend (8)
-4 Nacatl
-2Leak
-2 Pierce
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+2 Helix
+2 Pyro
Affinity (11)
-4 Nacatl
-2 Leak
-3 Growth
-2 Pierce
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Helix
+2 Pyroclasm
Merfolk (11)
-1 Delver
-1 Mandrils
-3 Muta
-2 Leak
-2 Pierce
-2 Probe
+2 Scepter
+2 Huntmaster
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Helix
+2 Pyroclasm
MIDRANGE (4)
Jund (6)
-2 Pierce
-2 Leak
-2 Probe
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+2 Helix
Abzan (6)
-2 Pierce
-2 Leak
-2 Probe
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+2 Pyroclasm
Jeskai Control (6)
-2 Leak
-2 Pierce
-2 Path
+2 Scepter
+2 Hunt
+2 Negate
Sun & Moon (9)
-1 Hooting Mandrills
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Lightning Helix
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Isochron Scepter
+2 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Destructive Revelry
+2 Negate
COMBO (5)
RG/GW Tron (7)
-3 Muta
-2 Path
-2 Snare
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Helix
+2 Negate
RG Valakut (7)
-2 Pierce
-2 Snare
-2 Helix
-1 Bolt
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Negate
+2 Surgical
Ad Nauseam (7)
-1 Muta
-4 Path
-2 Helix
+1 Grudge
+2 Revelry
+2 Negate
+2 Surgical
Grishoalbrand (4)
-2 Helix
-2 Muta
+2 Negate
+2 Surgical
Storm (8)
-1 Mandrills
-2 Helix
-1 Muta
-4 Path
+2 Revelry
+2 Negate
+2 Pyroclasm
+2 Surgical
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
We tried a bunch of stuff instead of the Probes. Bauble's not great because our i/s count is already quite low. Tarfire blows because we have way better removal in these colors. Seal of Fire fails both of these tests. We tried Scour too, but it was too inconsistent at dumping the right card type. So we need another sorcery. Traverse is bad because it's better to play three Mandrills than two and have a Traverse engine in the deck, plus we don't benefit enough from the basic search function on only two, and can't realistically include Reveler in the side because RR is brutal (if we get Quartered, Tec Edged, or Seas'd once it's off for the game).
Right now we're playing two Sleight of Hand. They actually seem decent. Kelsey likes them. Our consensus so far is that Sleight is worse than Probe in turns 1-3 and better in turns 3+. Rest of the decklist is the same. More news to come as the deck gets broken in.
On Push: I don't see Push dramatically warping Modern. It will just allow some new midrange decks (i.e. Sultai) or control decks (i.e. Esper) to occupy some of the space currently taken up almost exclusively by Jund and Abzan.
Counter-Cat feels this shift more than MG though because Push makes Mutagenic Growth much worse when it shows up over Bolt.
Lately the biggest problem we've encountered with CC is that it doesn't have a great anti-midrange option. Huntmaster is a bit clunky at more than two copies and doesn't take the game away from opponents running a lot of removal. Reveler and most Walkers are off-limits. The only walker we'd want is Nahiri anyway and we definitely don't have room for Emrakul if we can only squeeze in two copies. Scepter is what we currently play, as it helps in other matchups. But creature decks are easy for us anyway so I'm looking to replace it with something more obviously anti-midrange. We might just want two more Snaps in the side. Open to suggestions!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Regarding the Probe ban, it doesn't affect me at all, never liked that card to begin with in this shell.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
@Kathal mind posting your latest list? How are you beating control decks?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Regarding Control decks, the biggest problem was always, that I could never win the lategame (regardless of which bomb you might have) since I play the more aggressive shell. Hence, I sticked with Scepter as "lategame" plan, even though it is not that great. Otherwise, the 4 mana Gideon is something I looked into, but double W is a real issue for this deck. Otherwise, the plan vs control was always the same: get some early beats in and finish it off with burn (also a reason, why I run 7 burn spells MD). Doesn't really work that well :/
Regarding Midrange, my version is better vs it both because of the higher burn count and especially the Rancors (run 2 of them), which just makes the Goyf stalemate non existent.
I cannot offer you a list, since the deck is currently not built together (needed the pieces somewhere else) + my paper list is roughly 200km away :/
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thought Scour
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
Sorceries (7)
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Negate
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-3 Mutagenic Growth
-2 Lightning Helix
-1 Arid Mesa
-1 Destructive Revelry (SB)
-1 Isochron Scepter (SB)
+3 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Thought Scour
+1 Sleight of Hand
+1 Breeding Pool
+2 Engineered Explosives (SB)
We cut Muta to reach a critical mass of blue spells and support Disrupting Shoal. Shoal is great against the faster linear decks Modern is known for and also a beating against DSJ, where it slows their early development and can easily be hard-cast to blow them out in the mid-game (i.e. countering Goyf or Shadow after they Traverse for it). Shoal counters Fatal Push, too, which makes Goyf more reliable than Muta right now when it comes to protecting our threats.
Hooting Mandrills is just crazy right now. A 4/4 with trample that doesn't really die to anything is so good. Most decks answer delve fatties with Lingering Souls, but Mandrills doesn't care about 1/1 Spirits. He's Push- and Decay-proof and we run plenty of him. Thought Scour was added as an unexciting extra blue spell, but it does accelerate into Mandrills earlier, let us hold up our countermagic (more relevant with Shoal in the deck), and stock the graveyard for Rallier.
Snapcaster became Sleight #3. This card is superb whenever we have extra mana laying around, and not even so bad when we're trying to find more lands, since it helps get to them right away. Snap was too clunky in the latter scenario and our attrition/midrange plans get shored up by Rallier anyway.
Mesa #3 became Pool. Helps cast our UU spells and gives us a stronger long-game. Pool is a great third land but definitely not one we want to see early. We like it though.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Is a "4C Delver" build using Tribal Flames not a good option right now compared to the newer ones ?
How should it look like ?
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Was decent, back than, today it might be better but the tempo decks, which could play it have an abyssal Death Shadow match-up, as long as you do not run Shoal.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: And no, you cannot play 4 GQ in Counter-Cat, it is simply not possible.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
2. Delver decks run many one-mana spells, meaning a land that taps for C is often not going to cast anything
3. That means you need to run GQ in addition to your normal lands to make it work
4. That means going from 18 lands to 22 and making Delver much worse at flipping
It would never work in this deck but feel free to try. The card you want is Spreading Seas in the sideboard.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I like the idea. What would you cut to make room for them?
Modern:
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Pyroclasm
2 Negate
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Spreading Seas
1 Dispel
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
EDIT: A friend of mine needed a deck for an aggro meta (elves, merfolks, cheeri0s, company, etc.) and I convinced him to try Counter-Cats. We ended up building the Aggro version due to the greater pesence of removal. Here's the list:
// 17 Creature
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
// 1 Enchantment
1 Rancor
// 18 Instant
2 Mutagenic Growth
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
// 18 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
// 2 Artifact
2 Engineered Explosives
// 4 Creature
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Renegade Rallier
// 9 Instant
2 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Lightning Helix
1 Kozilek's Return
Kozilek's return was a concession to burrenton forge tender and/or master of waves.
He managed to 4-0 against Jeskai midrange, GW Company, Bant Knightfall and BG Tron.
On saturday he brought it to a side event of GP Bologna (about 60 people, 4 turns and prizes for number of victories) and he made 3-1, winning against Death's Shadow Jund, BW Tokens and Eldrazi & Taxes, losing only to a UB Control which (I quote his opponent) "was tuned to slay tron decks".
So we were pretty happy of the deck ad we will keep up this way.
Modern:
@Mikefon: honestly I think Path is so hot right now that this deck is a good deal better than Temur Delver. There are also so many removal-light linear decks in Modern that Nacatl is often just a pre-flipped Delver. It's also markedly better in many creature matchups, where 3/3 walls early attackers and applies acceptable pressure, kind of like a mini-Goyf. Excited to play more with Counter-Cat in the near future!
Edit -- @Mikefon again: I advise heavily against Helix, Muta, and Rancor (would you play this card in Temur Delver?). Helix is just bad in this deck now without Probe. We don't need it and it makes our mana so much worse. You can't really run Pool with Helix in the deck for example. Bolt is at all-time lows so Muta is pretty weak. Shoal covers a lot of the same ground and has far wider applications.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Either online or in a wider/unknown meta that list cant't win much nowadays and I'd surely play a counter heavier list. I'm trying on cockatrice your list and I like it a lot.
Edit: Can't helix be useful against combo deck such as company or storm as additional spot removals? In addition sometimes I miss the burn reach it gave.
Modern: