There's simply no reason for Modern Delver decks to be in green without Tarmogoyf.
I can name you even several reasons: Atarka's Command, Rancor, Hooting Mandrills, Become Immense, Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry, Wild Nacatl, Huntmaster (in a more Midrangey shell) and some other (most of the times SB) cards.
I'm playing RUG Days Undoing Delver right now (not Counter-Cat, neither RUG Delver nor any other Modern deck I have) and I run exactly 0 Goyfs. Surprisingly, they made the deck WORSE in that specific shell I'm playing. He neither generates value (Pyro, Abbot, Snapppy (SB)), nor has haste (Swiftspear, Guide, Stormchaser) or has even evasion (Delver, Stormchaser). He is just a dumb and slow creature and simply not worth it.
When I cast Days Undoing, I want to untap with 4 lands and kill the opponent either that turn, or set up another DD. Goyf does not help in those scenarios at all (+ he is really vulnerable to Bolt in that shell).
Fair enough on the Day's Undoing deck, but I'd say that strategy is less grow and more aggro. I should have specified: I meant grow decks in green always want Tarmogoyf. Atarka's, Rancor, etc. are not sufficient reasons to be in green, which is why you'll never see a UGx grow deck succeed in Modern without the Lhurgoyf (feel free to link me to one if I'm wrong). Usually, running green only for those cards in a grow decks yields a worse version of another deck. Running green only for Mandrills makes you a worse Grixis Delver, which has access to Tasigur and Gurmag; running green for Atarka's makes you a worse Gruul Zoo, or perhaps a worse RUG Prowess or iGrow; etc. If you disagree, let's see a Goyfless grow list you genuinely believe to be better than the alternatives.
Seeker does NOT compliment our strategy really well. He has much less synergy in this deck than Pyromancer and the life is irrelevant in a ton of matchups, including Ad Nauseam, Grishoalbrand, and Scapeshift (good luck getting over 18 life even with Seeker, and if you do, all you've managed to do is delay the Scapeshift for one turn).
As a Griselbanned player myself (+ Scapeshift and a couple of years ago ADN too) I can say: lifegain is a pain in the ass to deal with, especially combined with a fast clock.
The Shoal version cannot shoot you down with a single iteration of the combo, if you have more than 20 life, especially, when you also run counters. In these scenarios you have end the combo sooner (otherwise you will die to the backswing) and go for TTB + Worldspine Wurms play, to grind the opponent down. However, Path simply says no to this.
Furthermore, Scapeshift players win most games, only because they can shoot us down, when we are below 18 life. Hence, getting a whole extra turn (or even more, since he HAS to find a land to begin with) buys us enough time to close out the game. Of course, they will go for a Shift earlier to clear the board + shoot the remaining damage to you, but this will buy you even more time to find a lethal thread.
Through Ad Nauseam just poops on life, since they can win via Lab Man (and most lists are running 1 MD atm).
The thing about these examples is you're assuming Seeker will land early enough and connect enough times to bring your life total from something like 12 up to something like 22.
But if I'm not mistaken, you're not seriously advocating for Seeker in this deck, correct? If we agree that it's bad here, there's no reason to discuss it.
PS: Note: I still think that Goyf is the best two drop available for us (best Creature is Mandrills, not even close), however, if we are simply close minded and do not wish to make any innovations (or think about other possibilities), than we are just empty-headed academics.
Of course. But discussing the merits of budget solutions to Tarmogoyf is not being "open-minded." It's wasting time. If you want to test Seeker seriously in a deck free of budget restrictions, then by all means, do so and let us know how it goes. But it just seems like you're being sophistic at this point.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Man, i was really thinking about building this deck but after seeing how horrible and toxic the people who play it are, example Ashton, I'm definitely not making it any more. It really seems to me like this forum is just a cult meant to praise all that is Ashton and everything he does, and that anyone who says anything even slightly out of line just immediately gets hated out because Ashton is so insecure about his own intelligence. That any innovation that goes against Ashton's previously held beliefs on the deck is immediately singled out and hated on because he and his followers have no idea what an open mind is. Sorry, but this place just seems completely toxic and horrible.
Man, i was really thinking about building this deck but after seeing how horrible and toxic the people who play it are, example Ashton, I'm definitely not making it any more. It really seems to me like this forum is just a cult meant to praise all that is Ashton and everything he does, and that anyone who says anything even slightly out of line just immediately gets hated out because Ashton is so insecure about his own intelligence. That any innovation that goes against Ashton's previously held beliefs on the deck is immediately singled out and hated on because he and his followers have no idea what an open mind is. Sorry, but this place just seems completely toxic and horrible.
Who you calling a follower? Also, cool how someone just joined the forums and decided their first comment will be this one
Hi,
It might be a little off-topic, but my lgs started running No-Banlist events. I would love to play CounterCat since I didnt get the chance during Cruise time. Do you think the deck is good enough in the format? Are other delver decks like RUG or straight UR Delver just better?
Hoping you guys have some ideas
Greetings
I don't think it's very relevant to this thread, but I do play Counter-Cat in MNBL (also have a league locally). PM me for a list and my thoughts on it if you're interested! Can also probably start a thread in the Misc. Formats forum.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hi again,
I have tested the stocked Muta-Countercat list for a while now, but I have problems beating dredge deck which are quite popular in the LGS and on cockatrice. Without the god-draw of 3 paths and snapcasters for them it is hard to beat those decks. Any ideas to improve the match-up? Since I am planning to take the deck to the WMCQ I need some answers for dredge.
Greetings
Grafdigger's Cage is the best hoser against them, as it even turns off Fatihless Looting and dredged Grudges. How do you feel about your other matchups?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Thats what I figured as well: Cage is the best card, but can I justifie 2? I am not sure about them... On the other hand, they shut down Chord and Coco, so they seem fine. I like the combo matchups (which is why I chose CounterCat instead of Tarmodrazi). The aggro matchups are quite good I think and I love me a Fiery Justice in the board
The toughest deck is Grixis Delver which is played often at my lgs. Tasigoyf and Angler are often superior to the ape and goyf.
That are my thoughts. Other ideas are welcome.
Greetings
Interesting that you struggle against these threats with Muta, Path, and Snapcaster in the deck. I've also found Goyf and Huntmaster to pressure Grixis Delver really effectively.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Mhm, maybe the matchup needs more testing. I think they play their weird Non-Tempo Non-Control gameplan so good, that I just get outvalued too fast with Snapcasters and Kolaghans Command. The aggro game doesn't work as well, since the decks are packed with removal.
What I forgot to mention was the Scapeshift matchups which are not that good. Especially Bring to light Scapeshift is tough. And Grishoalbrand in Kathals hands is hard as well
Greetings
I mean, I'm know for my Griselbrand affliction (and also my skill with that deck).
Since I'm messing around with Dredge currently, the best two bets against the deck is Cage and Surgical (especially with Snappy). When you are able to extract the 3/3s and Bloodghasts it is usually gg (3/3s are most of the times sufficient).
As for the Grixis match-up, I have a pretty high win % against them, but this is due to my slightly more aggressive approach (which they don't like at all). So either be a little bit more aggressive, or try to go a little bit bigger (which is nigh impossible against most Grixis version).
Yes, Scapeshift is a pain to play against. Key here is to counter the ramp spells and not the Scapeshift, since we will lose the counter war. By cutting down their mana, they need more time to assemble the "combo", which in return buys us more time. Hence, don't fall in the trap to board in Dispels, they are frankly said, useless against them.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just so that you know it, Path doesn't safe your Delver from a Redcap, since when the ability resolves, it checks the last known power, which was two. Dismember (or Disfigure/Darkblast) would work, but not plain removal.
Besides this, I don't like some card choices you made, especially the combination of Probe + Growth will result into a to big life drain (we are already starting at 13 life normally). Hence, I would change the two Probes for 1 Faithless Looting and 1 Sleight of Hands (or Peek, if you want to have the informations). Also, I would at least change the 4th Growth for the third Leak.
For the SB, if you really want to have a high maker vs BGx and Midrange in general, look at Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Koth of the Hammer or Garruk Relentless. Each of them have some form of advantages, but the most important aspect is: they can produce creatures. I played Elspeth 1.0 as a highmaker for a relative long time, the double W pushed her out of favour (that is also the reason, why I don't like Gideon that much).
However, I wouldn't try to "midrange" out midrange, this will not work, since our deck is not aimed to do so. We can try to take the Fish approach, but we cannot justify 8 SB slots for plain Midrange/Control. Hence, if you want to take the "midrange" approach, I would go with either the Planeswalkers (which have the highest chance to run away with a game) or with cards like Threads of Disloyalty, which will allow you to tempo out the Midrange decks better. Besides those options, you always can take the burn heavy approach (6-7 burn spells MD + 4 in the SB) or something special like Chameleon Colossus.
For Scepter, it is only truly good when there is a aggro/combo heavy meta, since those decks really struggle to deal with a Bolt/Helix or Counterspell per turn. As soon as the Meta shifts towards Midrange and Ramp decks, it gets way worse. Since we are currently in this meta, I would advise against running it.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
You got something wrong, if you want a specific out vs Midrange than both three Walkers are better than Huntmaster. Huntmaster is overall a more versatile card, since you can board him more often. However, Huntmaster tends to suck balls in a pure Midrange match-up, since he dies to nearly every played removal spell (Bolt, Path, Terminate he is just Decay proof) and he just leaves you with a 2/2 wolf and +2 life, which is not worth 4 Mana. In these spots, all three walker (which do not die to the mentioned removal spells but Garruk, since he has only 3 Loyalty) or even P&K Nalaar, which is a pseudo Lingering Souls effect for us (which Midrange tends to struggle), are just way better than Huntmaster.
Since you already have other (and arguably better) SB cards vs Aggro (Helix, Clasm, Fiery Justice) you will only board in Huntmaster, when you have way to many dead MD slots. And to be honest, this only tends to happen, if you make your MD to midrangy, cause your aggro plan beats nearly every other aggro plan (you can go slightly bigger and have better removal spells). This is also one of the reasons, why I do not like the Snapcasters at all (at least in the MD). Due to them and the indirect effects on the deckbuidling, the deck will come more Midrangy by default which in return makes our Aggro match-up worse which in return means, that we need more SB cards for these match-ups.
However, in the same vain, Snapcaster improves our Midrange match-up slightly but does not reduce the amount of cards needed in the SB for it (you still want around 4-5 cards for it).
So you can say: Asthons list (with Growth, Probe and Snappi MD) has a slightly better Bolt and Midrange match-up but a worse aggro match-up.
For the mentioned card selection spells, Looting is basically a bad brainstorm for us (at least in the mid to lategame), when you can ditch excessive lands or dead spells (a Spell Pierce will be quite useless, when the opp has 5+ lands). The Flashback part is the only reason, why I'm running it over Izzet Charm (which would be just better otherwise). For the Sleight of Hands, I like it more in a Pyro shell, but than again, it is still better than Probe here.
Just for info, if you want to run the playset Mandrills (which I do and recommend), Snapcasters will become worse (at least in the MD) and thus I would move them into the SB. I tried that plan earlier and it looked promising, but due to limited time (and testing chances) I couldn't refine a good SB plan with them.
What happens, if you play Snappy in the SB, is, that you will bring them in against anything, where Delver sucks for the Delvers (at least 2). Hence, anything were you do not need a fast clock and/or the opponent has flying stuff (Lingering Souls, P%K Nalaar,...). It is like the Days Undoing builds, which bring in Snappy post board to make the Control and Aggro match-up better.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I've been following Counter Cat for a while with some time now with varying levels of interest, and with eldritch moon on the horizon I once again find myself very intrigued with the deck. What got me going this time was the thought that it might be possible to slide a few copies of gnarlwood dryad into the main next to the bugs and cats, an Idea made all the more appealing by throwing a few rancor into the list as well. Being a Death and Taxes player, I have very little familiarity with the finer aspects of this type of deck, and so rather than try to innovate on my own, I thought I'd ask the opinions of several more experienced players.
The way I was thinking about it, if I wanted to play gnarlwood I would need a stronger delirium package than the deck naturally supports, and the first natural way to do that would be to add more card types to the deck. this makes me want to add something like Mishra's Bauble as a cantrip to go alongside a beefy rancor count so I had as many hits as I could find. the problem I have with this is I don't really like bauble very much, and I certainly don't want to devote as much as 6 cards (an amount I thought would be necessary) to the combination of baubles and rancors. in answer to that I thought about possibly running thought scour as a means of more reliably getting the card types already in the deck into the graveyard, but I'm not sure that thought scour is actually a card I would want to play if other options are available, since it does very little other than help with delirium (and I suppose setting up mandrills). More recently I've been thinking about faithless looting, a card very dear to me, as a delirium enabler since it allows for superb selection and can get tricky card types into the graveyard more easily. I don't know if looting is the type of card I even should be looking at, but it does appeal to me.
One big question I has was what cards would I need to cut to make room for whatever delirium package I came up with. The answer I keep thinking of is gitaxian probe since it seems to be the more replacable cantrip, but if it's more essential than I had realized, I would like to know. Another question I had was if I'm going to look at maindecking enchantments anyway, is curiosity worth trying. In a similar vein, it might be worth trying to fit some number of tarfire maindeck, though I'm not sure the deck would really benefit from that, and if we have isochron scepter in the list anyway, would it be worth putting one main to potentially assist delirium. As I said above, I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of the deck to be able to answer these questions on my own, so any thoughts would be appreciated.
on a totally different note, it's nice to recognize a few people from over on modern nexus
I've been following Counter Cat for a while with some time now with varying levels of interest, and with eldritch moon on the horizon I once again find myself very intrigued with the deck. What got me going this time was the thought that it might be possible to slide a few copies of gnarlwood dryad into the main next to the bugs and cats, an Idea made all the more appealing by throwing a few rancor into the list as well. Being a Death and Taxes player, I have very little familiarity with the finer aspects of this type of deck, and so rather than try to innovate on my own, I thought I'd ask the opinions of several more experienced players.
The way I was thinking about it, if I wanted to play gnarlwood I would need a stronger delirium package than the deck naturally supports, and the first natural way to do that would be to add more card types to the deck. this makes me want to add something like Mishra's Bauble as a cantrip to go alongside a beefy rancor count so I had as many hits as I could find. the problem I have with this is I don't really like bauble very much, and I certainly don't want to devote as much as 6 cards (an amount I thought would be necessary) to the combination of baubles and rancors. in answer to that I thought about possibly running thought scour as a means of more reliably getting the card types already in the deck into the graveyard, but I'm not sure that thought scour is actually a card I would want to play if other options are available, since it does very little other than help with delirium (and I suppose setting up mandrills). More recently I've been thinking about faithless looting, a card very dear to me, as a delirium enabler since it allows for superb selection and can get tricky card types into the graveyard more easily. I don't know if looting is the type of card I even should be looking at, but it does appeal to me.
One big question I has was what cards would I need to cut to make room for whatever delirium package I came up with. The answer I keep thinking of is gitaxian probe since it seems to be the more replacable cantrip, but if it's more essential than I had realized, I would like to know. Another question I had was if I'm going to look at maindecking enchantments anyway, is curiosity worth trying. In a similar vein, it might be worth trying to fit some number of tarfire maindeck, though I'm not sure the deck would really benefit from that, and if we have isochron scepter in the list anyway, would it be worth putting one main to potentially assist delirium. As I said above, I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of the deck to be able to answer these questions on my own, so any thoughts would be appreciated.
on a totally different note, it's nice to recognize a few people from over on modern nexus
The problem with this kind of approach is you end up losing a lot in the way of spell count. I think it's better to just cut Delver entirely at this point and become more of a Zoo deck: modernnexus.com/oops-nacatls-gnarlroot-dryad-delirium-zoo/
But feel free to post a list, especially if it's testing well for you!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
With respect, I've read the article and I believe that it might be premature to abandon dryad in the counter cat shell. being able to be a 3/3 deathtouch immediately upon hitting the board is very relevant as the game progresses, and the ability to bring tarmogoyf to immense sizes also seems quite appealing. It may be the case that if delver and dryad fight each other for deck space then perhaps we should be cutting delvers for dryads, but that does not mean that dryad is a poor card choice in the counterspell-cantrip-burn-beats shell that is counter cat. In much the same way that tribal flames is likely better in domain zoo than here, but still playable here I believe that gnarlwood dryad is likely better in a zoo shell, but might be worth it here regardless.
I intend to figure out a deck and test it to the best of my abilities, as I genuinely believe that there is potential here. Besides, worst case scenario I find out that gnarlwood dryad is completely unplayable, and learn something about card selection and enabling delirium in the process.
I made some rough drafts and brainstorming about dryad in Counter Cat. However, to enable Delirium reliable, you have to cut way to hard into stuff you normally don't want to cut into (spells and creatures) and play stuff which is not that great (Bubble, Tarfire and co).
However, Dryad has potential, but not in a Delver like shell. She is way better in the RUG Prowress deck Chapin played last year (with Abbot, Goyf, Swiftspear), since the deck lacks another good 1 drop and Dryad is one while Delirium can be easily met (you are playing Seal of Fire, Bubble, Tarfire and Rancor, besides the normal cantrips and burn plan).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Played Counter-Cat last FNM. Went 3-0-1 with an ID for first. The deck was a blast to play and VERY powerful. I played a list similar to what Ashton and haexxx posted, with a few minor changes mostly to the sideboard of course.
Match-ups:
R1: G/W Fog???
Kid was new to Magic. He told me he started playing a year ago, but just got into Modern within the last few months. I'm not even really sure what he was trying to do with his deck, but it played a couple fog spells and some really random dudes. Crushed him game 1, felt bad about it, and let him get me down to 1 life game 2 before I won (he got super excited about having almost beat me). I didn't even bother to sideboard.
2-0
R2: Abzan
Played against one of my friends that always plays Abzan. He knew what I was on because we talked about the deck earlier in the week, but he didn't know my exact list. Game 1 went pretty quick. He had 2 discard after his mull to 5 which took my turn 1 threat and turn 2 counter. Drew 2 Goyfs in the next 3 turns and beat face while he was stuck on 2 lands until they were walled by Souls when he hit his third. Ended the game around turn 6 with a Rancor.
Game 2 was more fun. He plays a tap land turn 1. I play Delver. He plays Explosives turn 2. I blind flip Delver, swing 3, then play Nacatl and hold up Spell Pierce. Turn 3 he plays Ghostly Prison and boy am I happy to throw the Pierce at it when he windmill slammed it on the table. Needless to say this play won me the game (eventually, since it allowed me to do enough early damage). We have a bit of back and forth with me on three lands and him drawing the right removal/lands combination. At one point I decided to play a Goyf that I sandbagged for 4 turns since he had Explosives in play. I had Boros Charm in hand but not enough mana to cast it and Goyf, so I figured I would bait the Explosives and hope to draw Goyf number 2. His turn he untaps and hits it with Path??? o.O Awesome for me because I grab a basic, untap and slam Ajani, keeping his only white land from untapping. He flashes back a Souls, and I continue to keep his white land tapped while I draw into better spells. He's around 8 life so I -3 to kill Ajani and put him to 5 with Boros Charm still in hand. He plays Finks to gain 2, putting him to 7. I draw Serum to leave a Bolt on top, with Charm as my only card in hand. I swing with a Goyf and he trades with his Finks and some Souls tokens (goes to 9). One fetch eot on my turn (8 life) and one on his turn (7 life), he plays 2 threats. I end his turn with the Charm and untap into the Bolt. Such a fun game.
4-0
R3: Naya Burn
I'm not too thrilled when I see a turn 1 Lava Spike, turn 2 Swiftspear/Bolt my Nacatl. This match was a blur since I hate playing against burn so much. Noteworthy things game one were having my turn 2 Goyf eat 2 Bolts, and me somehow not losing after doing so much damage to myself with shocks and fetches. I also managed to Leak an Eidolon. The only other thing I remember was winning with a Goyf and a Hooter when he was stuck on 3 lands, no white, and 2 Boros Charm in hand with me at 9.
Game 2 was about the same. Weird plays from both of us. I really only remember casting a Helix on my turn to burn him, played a Serum off my island, then play a Hooter off forest with exactly 5 cards to delve. The Mandrills won me the game.
6-0
R4: Split for first and second with Bushwhacker Zoo
We still played for fun to see how the matches could have gone. Game 1 I made a few dumb misplays that cost me the game. I had a flipped Delver, a Path, Arid Mesa, Steam Vents, and Mutagenic in hand. I top-deck Serum which draws me Delver #2. I scry a Bolt and a Muta to the top with Muta being able to flip Delver (I didn't want him to know I would have 2 removal for his Nacatl and Goblin Guide (this was my second misplay)). I attack for 3 and play Vents tapped. His turn, he plays Guide #2 and swings for 7. My turn, Delver flips off the Mutagenic. Suddenly, I realize that I didn't have a white for Path, and I can't play the Mesa to fetch/shock to Path a dude since it would put me in Bolt range. Needless to say he throws a Boros Charm at me eot and kills me next turn anyway. Had I played the Mesa before the Vents, and put the Bolt before the Mutagenic, I could have killed two of his dudes (or 3 if I traded a Delver) and killed him in two turns with Delver and a Muta. Oops.
Game 2 I basically just drew answers a turn too late after he played threats.
Just an update to my previous comments, I've done a small amount of testing, and I've come to some interesting conclusions. gnarlwood dryad and delver of secrets simply do not play nicely together. while I was able to get the two of them to function properly in the same shell, it was awkward, and underwhelming. I then tried a version of the deck where delver was replaced by dryad, and while that worked to some degree, I never liked having to devote extra slots to tarfires or to mishra's bauble. I have come to the conclusion that it is possible to build a sort of "turbo delirium" version of the deck which uses fewer card types but plays more cards like faithless looting or thought scour to put exactly 4 card types into the graveyard very quickly and very consistantly, but without the potential for 6/7 goyfs being as real I doubt the legitamacy of such a strategy. I'm going to suspend further testing for a good while, so I guess this result will stand for now as far as I'm concerned.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
How do we beat Dredge? Or is that even a thing that we do? I recently picked up the deck, so it may just be inexperience, but it seems like every game I get close, but I'm not able to close it out.
How do we beat Dradge? Or is that even a thing that we do? I recently picked up the deck, so it may just be inexperience, but it seems like every game I get close, but I'm not able to close it out.
They can't block Delver without Stinkweed Imp and have trouble beating go-wide strategies in general. Nacatl and Goyf put them on a fast enough clock that they have to leave up Amalgams to block (after they enter tapped and can't block for a turn), which allows us to accumulate a critical mass of burn spells in hand and kill them with reach (notably, Ghast can never block). Board in your burn spells and Huntmasters; take out your countermagic.
Alternatively, a pair of Pierces can work over two Mutagenic Growths, especially on the play (to counter Looting/Reunion while putting pressure on the board, and to stop a board-wiping Conflagrate).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey folks, how have y'all liked Mutagenic Growth? Have you found it good at it's purpose, winning combat, surviving bolt? How have you found the counter package o be, sufficient to keep the crew alive? Would love to get some more traction on this thread so I can learn this awesome Tempo list.
Hey folks, how have y'all liked Mutagenic Growth? Have you found it good at it's purpose, winning combat, surviving bolt? How have you found the counter package o be, sufficient to keep the crew alive? Would love to get some more traction on this thread so I can learn this awesome Tempo list.
And I would love to have the time and possibilities to actually play the game
So no, I have not further tested it and I have still the same opinion as before: I need to test it further, to make a proper call if I want the counterspell package more or less than the Growth.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks for the share! This is my old Modern Nexus list but without Scepters in the side and with -1 Mesa, +1 Heath in the main. I don't think this version is quite optimal anymore (needs minor tweaks, like -1 Remand +1 Leak and some Snares) but it's great to see someone else is playing it.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Well since there isn't a lot of public data about how Mutagenic performs, I'm going to take it to FNM for a while and see how she runs. As bolt becomes less prevalent though, being replaced by path, is there a shift back towards more counter magic to protect our threats?
Well since there isn't a lot of public data about how Mutagenic performs, I'm going to take it to FNM for a while and see how she runs. As bolt becomes less prevalent though, being replaced by path, is there a shift back towards more counter magic to protect our threats?
I don't think so. Bolt is the removal spell we actually care about in this deck. Path gets us to Isochron/Huntmaster/Snap-Leak faster.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
But if I'm not mistaken, you're not seriously advocating for Seeker in this deck, correct? If we agree that it's bad here, there's no reason to discuss it. Of course. But discussing the merits of budget solutions to Tarmogoyf is not being "open-minded." It's wasting time. If you want to test Seeker seriously in a deck free of budget restrictions, then by all means, do so and let us know how it goes. But it just seems like you're being sophistic at this point.
In other news, I published a tournament report with Counter-Cat on the Nexus this morning:
http://modernnexus.com/delver-bulk-counter-cat-practice/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Who you calling a follower? Also, cool how someone just joined the forums and decided their first comment will be this one
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I mean, I'm know for my Griselbrand affliction (and also my skill with that deck).
Since I'm messing around with Dredge currently, the best two bets against the deck is Cage and Surgical (especially with Snappy). When you are able to extract the 3/3s and Bloodghasts it is usually gg (3/3s are most of the times sufficient).
As for the Grixis match-up, I have a pretty high win % against them, but this is due to my slightly more aggressive approach (which they don't like at all). So either be a little bit more aggressive, or try to go a little bit bigger (which is nigh impossible against most Grixis version).
Yes, Scapeshift is a pain to play against. Key here is to counter the ramp spells and not the Scapeshift, since we will lose the counter war. By cutting down their mana, they need more time to assemble the "combo", which in return buys us more time. Hence, don't fall in the trap to board in Dispels, they are frankly said, useless against them.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Besides this, I don't like some card choices you made, especially the combination of Probe + Growth will result into a to big life drain (we are already starting at 13 life normally). Hence, I would change the two Probes for 1 Faithless Looting and 1 Sleight of Hands (or Peek, if you want to have the informations). Also, I would at least change the 4th Growth for the third Leak.
For the SB, if you really want to have a high maker vs BGx and Midrange in general, look at Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Koth of the Hammer or Garruk Relentless. Each of them have some form of advantages, but the most important aspect is: they can produce creatures. I played Elspeth 1.0 as a highmaker for a relative long time, the double W pushed her out of favour (that is also the reason, why I don't like Gideon that much).
However, I wouldn't try to "midrange" out midrange, this will not work, since our deck is not aimed to do so. We can try to take the Fish approach, but we cannot justify 8 SB slots for plain Midrange/Control. Hence, if you want to take the "midrange" approach, I would go with either the Planeswalkers (which have the highest chance to run away with a game) or with cards like Threads of Disloyalty, which will allow you to tempo out the Midrange decks better. Besides those options, you always can take the burn heavy approach (6-7 burn spells MD + 4 in the SB) or something special like Chameleon Colossus.
For Scepter, it is only truly good when there is a aggro/combo heavy meta, since those decks really struggle to deal with a Bolt/Helix or Counterspell per turn. As soon as the Meta shifts towards Midrange and Ramp decks, it gets way worse. Since we are currently in this meta, I would advise against running it.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Since you already have other (and arguably better) SB cards vs Aggro (Helix, Clasm, Fiery Justice) you will only board in Huntmaster, when you have way to many dead MD slots. And to be honest, this only tends to happen, if you make your MD to midrangy, cause your aggro plan beats nearly every other aggro plan (you can go slightly bigger and have better removal spells). This is also one of the reasons, why I do not like the Snapcasters at all (at least in the MD). Due to them and the indirect effects on the deckbuidling, the deck will come more Midrangy by default which in return makes our Aggro match-up worse which in return means, that we need more SB cards for these match-ups.
However, in the same vain, Snapcaster improves our Midrange match-up slightly but does not reduce the amount of cards needed in the SB for it (you still want around 4-5 cards for it).
So you can say: Asthons list (with Growth, Probe and Snappi MD) has a slightly better Bolt and Midrange match-up but a worse aggro match-up.
For the mentioned card selection spells, Looting is basically a bad brainstorm for us (at least in the mid to lategame), when you can ditch excessive lands or dead spells (a Spell Pierce will be quite useless, when the opp has 5+ lands). The Flashback part is the only reason, why I'm running it over Izzet Charm (which would be just better otherwise). For the Sleight of Hands, I like it more in a Pyro shell, but than again, it is still better than Probe here.
Just for info, if you want to run the playset Mandrills (which I do and recommend), Snapcasters will become worse (at least in the MD) and thus I would move them into the SB. I tried that plan earlier and it looked promising, but due to limited time (and testing chances) I couldn't refine a good SB plan with them.
What happens, if you play Snappy in the SB, is, that you will bring them in against anything, where Delver sucks for the Delvers (at least 2). Hence, anything were you do not need a fast clock and/or the opponent has flying stuff (Lingering Souls, P%K Nalaar,...). It is like the Days Undoing builds, which bring in Snappy post board to make the Control and Aggro match-up better.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The way I was thinking about it, if I wanted to play gnarlwood I would need a stronger delirium package than the deck naturally supports, and the first natural way to do that would be to add more card types to the deck. this makes me want to add something like Mishra's Bauble as a cantrip to go alongside a beefy rancor count so I had as many hits as I could find. the problem I have with this is I don't really like bauble very much, and I certainly don't want to devote as much as 6 cards (an amount I thought would be necessary) to the combination of baubles and rancors. in answer to that I thought about possibly running thought scour as a means of more reliably getting the card types already in the deck into the graveyard, but I'm not sure that thought scour is actually a card I would want to play if other options are available, since it does very little other than help with delirium (and I suppose setting up mandrills). More recently I've been thinking about faithless looting, a card very dear to me, as a delirium enabler since it allows for superb selection and can get tricky card types into the graveyard more easily. I don't know if looting is the type of card I even should be looking at, but it does appeal to me.
One big question I has was what cards would I need to cut to make room for whatever delirium package I came up with. The answer I keep thinking of is gitaxian probe since it seems to be the more replacable cantrip, but if it's more essential than I had realized, I would like to know. Another question I had was if I'm going to look at maindecking enchantments anyway, is curiosity worth trying. In a similar vein, it might be worth trying to fit some number of tarfire maindeck, though I'm not sure the deck would really benefit from that, and if we have isochron scepter in the list anyway, would it be worth putting one main to potentially assist delirium. As I said above, I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of the deck to be able to answer these questions on my own, so any thoughts would be appreciated.
on a totally different note, it's nice to recognize a few people from over on modern nexus
But feel free to post a list, especially if it's testing well for you!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I intend to figure out a deck and test it to the best of my abilities, as I genuinely believe that there is potential here. Besides, worst case scenario I find out that gnarlwood dryad is completely unplayable, and learn something about card selection and enabling delirium in the process.
However, Dryad has potential, but not in a Delver like shell. She is way better in the RUG Prowress deck Chapin played last year (with Abbot, Goyf, Swiftspear), since the deck lacks another good 1 drop and Dryad is one while Delirium can be easily met (you are playing Seal of Fire, Bubble, Tarfire and Rancor, besides the normal cantrips and burn plan).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Match-ups:
R1: G/W Fog???
Kid was new to Magic. He told me he started playing a year ago, but just got into Modern within the last few months. I'm not even really sure what he was trying to do with his deck, but it played a couple fog spells and some really random dudes. Crushed him game 1, felt bad about it, and let him get me down to 1 life game 2 before I won (he got super excited about having almost beat me). I didn't even bother to sideboard.
2-0
R2: Abzan
Played against one of my friends that always plays Abzan. He knew what I was on because we talked about the deck earlier in the week, but he didn't know my exact list. Game 1 went pretty quick. He had 2 discard after his mull to 5 which took my turn 1 threat and turn 2 counter. Drew 2 Goyfs in the next 3 turns and beat face while he was stuck on 2 lands until they were walled by Souls when he hit his third. Ended the game around turn 6 with a Rancor.
Game 2 was more fun. He plays a tap land turn 1. I play Delver. He plays Explosives turn 2. I blind flip Delver, swing 3, then play Nacatl and hold up Spell Pierce. Turn 3 he plays Ghostly Prison and boy am I happy to throw the Pierce at it when he windmill slammed it on the table. Needless to say this play won me the game (eventually, since it allowed me to do enough early damage). We have a bit of back and forth with me on three lands and him drawing the right removal/lands combination. At one point I decided to play a Goyf that I sandbagged for 4 turns since he had Explosives in play. I had Boros Charm in hand but not enough mana to cast it and Goyf, so I figured I would bait the Explosives and hope to draw Goyf number 2. His turn he untaps and hits it with Path??? o.O Awesome for me because I grab a basic, untap and slam Ajani, keeping his only white land from untapping. He flashes back a Souls, and I continue to keep his white land tapped while I draw into better spells. He's around 8 life so I -3 to kill Ajani and put him to 5 with Boros Charm still in hand. He plays Finks to gain 2, putting him to 7. I draw Serum to leave a Bolt on top, with Charm as my only card in hand. I swing with a Goyf and he trades with his Finks and some Souls tokens (goes to 9). One fetch eot on my turn (8 life) and one on his turn (7 life), he plays 2 threats. I end his turn with the Charm and untap into the Bolt. Such a fun game.
4-0
R3: Naya Burn
I'm not too thrilled when I see a turn 1 Lava Spike, turn 2 Swiftspear/Bolt my Nacatl. This match was a blur since I hate playing against burn so much. Noteworthy things game one were having my turn 2 Goyf eat 2 Bolts, and me somehow not losing after doing so much damage to myself with shocks and fetches. I also managed to Leak an Eidolon. The only other thing I remember was winning with a Goyf and a Hooter when he was stuck on 3 lands, no white, and 2 Boros Charm in hand with me at 9.
Game 2 was about the same. Weird plays from both of us. I really only remember casting a Helix on my turn to burn him, played a Serum off my island, then play a Hooter off forest with exactly 5 cards to delve. The Mandrills won me the game.
6-0
R4: Split for first and second with Bushwhacker Zoo
We still played for fun to see how the matches could have gone. Game 1 I made a few dumb misplays that cost me the game. I had a flipped Delver, a Path, Arid Mesa, Steam Vents, and Mutagenic in hand. I top-deck Serum which draws me Delver #2. I scry a Bolt and a Muta to the top with Muta being able to flip Delver (I didn't want him to know I would have 2 removal for his Nacatl and Goblin Guide (this was my second misplay)). I attack for 3 and play Vents tapped. His turn, he plays Guide #2 and swings for 7. My turn, Delver flips off the Mutagenic. Suddenly, I realize that I didn't have a white for Path, and I can't play the Mesa to fetch/shock to Path a dude since it would put me in Bolt range. Needless to say he throws a Boros Charm at me eot and kills me next turn anyway. Had I played the Mesa before the Vents, and put the Bolt before the Mutagenic, I could have killed two of his dudes (or 3 if I traded a Delver) and killed him in two turns with Delver and a Muta. Oops.
Game 2 I basically just drew answers a turn too late after he played threats.
6-2
Here is what I played:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
2 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantments (1)
1 Rancor
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Negate
1 Boros Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Timely Reinforcements
Something like this?
+ 2 Huntmaster of the Fells
+ 2 Isochron Scepter??
+ 2 Boros Charm
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Lightning Helix
- 1 Mutagenic Growth?
- 1 Mana Leak?
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (18)
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
2 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Helix
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Negate
2 Boros Charm
+2 Huntmaster
+2 Boros Charm
-2 Pierce
-2 Leak
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
With my above list:
-2 Pierce
-2 Snare
-2 Leak
+2 Huntmaster of the Fells (reach and bodies)
+2 Pyroclasm (kills Imp and Narco on defense)
+2 Lightning Helix (reach and removal for blockers)
Alternatively, a pair of Pierces can work over two Mutagenic Growths, especially on the play (to counter Looting/Reunion while putting pressure on the board, and to stop a board-wiping Conflagrate).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
And I would love to have the time and possibilities to actually play the game
So no, I have not further tested it and I have still the same opinion as before: I need to test it further, to make a proper call if I want the counterspell package more or less than the Growth.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy