I'm glad someone finally noticed shaman of the great hunt. Other than that, have you given any thought to the original red +1/+1 counter pain? I mean of course, rage forger. Tis true you don't have a ton of shamans for enters the battlefield, but dang does he hit hard and he's only going to get worse the next time around. If you wanted to go for the ultra aggro kill, he may be the best thing you could add in.
That's true, but if you already have a ton of creatures with +1/+1 counters, he has immediate impact a turn earlier, allowing for a far more aggressive deck if built that way. It's an option for the red variants, I would think, and quite possibly a good one.
I've got Rage Forger in an old allies list (from way back before Hardened Scales came out), and I ended up settling on two as a good number. I think I swap it with Oona's Blackguard from the board in some matchups. I sort of gave up on the deck, but with Hardened Scales in the picture, I may have to revisit the concept.
Bringing this back from the dead for a new card Thalia's lieutenant. Also, to a lesser extent obsessive skinner. Thalia's lieutenant seems pretty good in a more ally/human build with:
Also in this build Champion of lambholt seems good. Its triggered by Lieutenant, as well as Mikeaus (and itself).
Also is it just me or is Initiate + Lieutenant slightly busted, get Initiate out, toss a counter on it with Lieutenant, then just keep casting humans and keep grafting counters onto all the things.
If one or more counters would be placed on an artifact or creature you control, that many of those counters plus one are placed on that permanent instead.
If you would get one or more counters, you get that many of those counters plus one instead.
Constrictor doesn't give itself counters, which hurts it.
Mimic isn't bad, but a little slow for aggro and modern. Another card I would drop in an EDH deck though.
Greenwheel Liberator is a bit more interesting. Problem is that Hardened Scales decks have a lot of solid two drops. Still, this dropping as a 5/4, out of bolt range for 2 mana, is worth considering.
Hidden Herbalists could lead to some blowout T2 plays, able to close out the game easily with a T3 Nissa when in multiples. It might be nicer than Greenwheel Liberator, who needs a little more setup to escape Bolt while still remaining vulnerable to Push, which good or not will be played everywhere for the next couple of months. WIth the Herbalists you get more threats sooner, putting extra pressure or stealing games out of nowhere.
Batman, have you though about testing a Jund Variant?
I tested in the past Nissa when I was running G/R Hardened Scales. In the end Nissa was nice, but felt a little win more. The reason being is if I had the creatures out to add +1/+1 counters too, I was generally going to win anyways. If she came down on an empty board, I would have perferred to drop a creature and start swinging.
Red gives you the following:
Lightning Bolt - (Great for Aggro or control, one of the best cards in modern) Volt Charge - (Combines Nissa with a lightning bolt) - this card I have included 1-2. Its an instant, it can strike the face or remove a creature, and it acts as a surprise boost to your creatures. Instant speed should not be overlooked at being a huge factor. Never a bad draw. Bloodhall Ooze - A great card in counters. With Winding Constrictor I think it can be a big factor. Rakdos Cackler - A solid one drop. Could be played for either red or black. Works well with Bloodhall Ooze.
Nissa has some repeat impacts, so long term its a good card, but honestly Volt Charge would be the play for me in an aggro deck if I needed mass counter generation from a non-creature source. Remove a creature and boost your team at instant speed. Really hard for decks to deal with it.
Nice deck Batman! I just think that rishkar is perfect for this deck... as we have so much 2 drops, i would remove liberator and play 3 rishkar and 3 nissa.
Rishkar is a body and gives 2 counters, helping avatar, trigger evolve and can be useful in late game more than nissa. The mana ramp can be useful for defense or extreme cases.
I would play inspiring call as well, perfect for protection protection and buy cards
Inspiring Call might be a decent sideboard card. Paying three mana for card draw though, you want to make sure you hit. If your creatures get boardwiped , and you draw an inspiring call, you have lost. Tezzeret's Gambit might be the better play since you boost your creatures and are guaranteed card draw. Your guaranteed to get something in any situation with it. If we want to hold onto protection, I think we would need more mid-range elements like thoughtseize so help us survive past turn 4.
Batman, overall I like the deck. Endless one seems okay, but seems like a simple beater. If you cast Endless one for 4 with hardened scales out, you have a 5/5 creature. If you cast say Savageborn Hydra instead for 4, you have a 3/3 double-strike creature with Pay 2: Add two counters to the hydra. Even Mistcutter Hydra would be a 4/4 Haste.
Rishkar doesn't really work since it costs 3. Playing 20/21 lands, you can't have more than 2-3 cards that have a converted mana cost 3. You just won't consistently hit 3 lands on your first 3 turns, especially playing a lot of fetches. Sticking with an aggro land count, either you have 3 Nissa or 3 Riskar.
One card I find useful is Sudden Spoiling in the sideboard. Works against tough creature matchups (soldiers, fairies, elves) that sometimes rely more on abilities like flying and indestructible than pure size with their lords. I find target removal and creature vs creature trading difficult in MTGO with those decks.
Spoiling also works against some of the combo decks will probably become more popular with Aether Revolt. It can't be countered, stops activated abilities from working until it resolves, and wipes the power of creatures, even if they swing with 500 of them.
Great ideas from you TheBatman!
I propose a slight variation of your deck.
Some notes/questions:
1. To abuse of scales/constrictor we need creatures, so I added a few more.
2. Llanowar reborn can enter with 2/3 counters and they multiply to 4/9; plus you can graft its counters on the turn it enters the battlefield (not the case with oran-rief)
3. kudzu + 10 fetches can be a powerhouse. still not sure whether it's consistent enough
4. in this build mutant's prey probably trumps fatal push (our creatures are huge and prey has no requirements plus is green)
5. all our creatures are very strong and there's no reason not to protect them with vines/defense since they also pump
6. is one overgrown tomb enough?
7. are ten fetches too many?
-I like Llanowar alot since you can pay it turn 3, and still drop a creature to immediately boost it possibly with 2 counters. Def very good in an aggro build. But note hardened scales and Constrictor do not add counters to Llanowar as it ETB.
-Basically every card here is green. Although I like constrictor, I wouldn't splash black just for it. I would still side in Fatal push if you desire black to be in the deck.
-I would cut one hardened scales, a liberators and a blossiming defense for 3 Rancor. Your going to want to make sure you can push through damage (lingering souls is everywhere.)
2. Llanowar reborn can enter with 2/3 counters and they multiply to 4/9; plus you can graft its counters on the turn it enters the battlefield (not the case with oran-rief)
Unfortunately Llanowar Reborn cannot have more than 1 counter. Hardened Scales says "creatures", and Winding Constrictor says "creatures or artifacts". However, I still like that land very much and play it as a 2 of in my mono green hardened scales deck. I don't like Oran-Rief, the Vastwood as it's only powerful in the late game, however, this deck wants to close out the game in the early turns.
-I like Llanowar alot since you can pay it turn 3, and still drop a creature to immediately boost it possibly with 2 counters. Def very good in an aggro build. But note hardened scales and Constrictor do not add counters to Llanowar as it ETB.
Personally don´t like decks with no interaction except they are super fast (like Infect) which this is not. Elves have a lot of synergy but outside CoCo Elves Combo they are a lot slower and often serious attacking on T3 the first time because you almost always want to use your manadork T2 instead of attacking. Also they have no protection ability like Experiment One or Geist.
If you wan´t to play the elves tribal with Scales I would build it GB(Fatal Push, Decay, cool Tribal cards) or GW (Oath of Ajani, Dromokas Command, Path) and maybe build it full Elf Warrior tribal with creatures costing 1 or 2 Mana.
I have updated my list and this is what I am going to lead into the field soon.
Really like how this deck performs. Ooze is also total crazy in this deck. Very often 8/8 and even bigger, gaining life back and really strong against Snapcaster and Abzan CoCo. Added the 4th copy because you always want one and with Scales or Snake it is easy to grow two of them the same time.
I am also amazed that this deck can kill very fast with Nissa and also able to fight long games. You get big creatures very often and able to fight even Eldrazi creatures. Experiment One is very hard to kill if it gets ignored. It envolves 2 times with each creature and the regenration ability is often ready to use. Also nice playing Constrictor with a 2/2 E1 out. It becomes 4/4. Rancor and Vastwood are amazing with Nissa out.
I started with your list, but after a little testing I'm leaning towards something more like this:
I think the amount of removal is going to rise a lot with Fatal Push, and I really found myself wanting a way to protect the creatures I'd invested work putting counters into. So I think 4x of either Blossoming Defense or Vines is going to be needed, not sure which. For cuts, multiples of Hardened Scales felt pretty bad, I usually didn't have enough gas to make up for it, and it was also usually a poor turn 1 play, so I'm going to try dropping to two. Nissa, VoZ is also something I often didn't want to see, she only felt great when I was already ahead, so I'm running less of her to make spots for protection. Last, I think Rancor really needs to be a 4x to ensure that we have trampling threats to push damage through chump blockers. It also goes nicely with protection spells to make sure we don't get blown out. Finally, with only 2 3-mana spells I think I can drop to 20 lands safely.
Very early build for MTGO later this month I will be trying. Aggro centered. Nissa, VoZ I am unsure about, but it does work really well with Hidden Herbalists, so the deck might keep evolving.
For those playing Nissa she likes a lot of creature. Without a token build, I feel cards like Hidden Herbalists are strong with her. Nissa is also capable of a turn 3 win in an highly unlikely, but possible scenario if you use Hidden Herbalists. Mono-green is the build for that though.
Turn 1, Land, Experiment one(1/1) - Turn 2, fetch, Hidden Herbalists(2/2), Hardened Scales, Narnam Renegade (3/4) [Experiment One now a 4/4 and swings] - Turn 3, Nissa (-2). Experiment One is a 6/6, Herbalists a 4/4, Renegade a 5/6, swing for possible lethal (assuming they cracked a fetch.)
Scavening Ooze needs to be maindecked. Non-negotionable. Graveyard hate, lifegain and +1/+1 counter strategy all the way.
To make room for Ooze, cut 2-greenwheel, and then cut the two Rishkar. Rishkar's mana ability is nearly irrelavant, and other than give out a counter or two doesnt do anything (no trample?) For three mana, I would want something better.
20 lands, 10 fetches. I wouldn't play more than 2 spells that cost 3.
LLanowar reborn is great in a deck with a lot of 1 or 2 drops that is playing 21 or less lands. Turn 3 you drop Llanowar tapped, play an Avatar or Scavenging Ooze, and immediately give it two counters.
Build your deck assuming hardened scales/Constrictor is not on the battlefield. It is a soft combo, and this deck will probably see tier 3 play. People will realize if you path to exile a constrictor, the deck turns into a possibly mediocre stompy deck. A lot of your creatures are still solid without Hardened Scales effects, but make sure they have viability if scales effects are not there. That is why I don't like Riskar. He doesn't really do much if you top-deck it. One card I love is Dromoka's Command, since in this deck it does so many things for us and interacts with other decks if need be. Splashing white also gives a great sideboard and removal options. But that is different testing.
That is why Allies hardened Scales has been the only one that has shown real viability in modern. If hardened Scales is removed, it still is an incredibility powerful creature deck with a ton of synergy. Not a hint of fat on it.
So when you build think of your strategy, and see where hardened scales can help it without hurting it. It is easy for hardened scales to be a win more card.
Agree with maindeck Scooze. Card is amazing, and we are going to be fighting through a ton of removal, so there will always be targets for it to eat. Also agree on Rishkar, half the time whatever you try to put counters on will get removed in response to the trigger. It's a big reason why Narnam/Avatar of the Resolute are good, they enter with the counters already on them so the opponent doesn't have a chance to bolt in response.
Remember with thoughtseize they have to take a card, it isn't optional, so if they top deck and play seize, if you have a land and a Dodecapod in your hand they have to take the dodecapod.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I was thinking something among this lines...any sugestion?
4 Arcbound Stinger
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Ornithopter
3 Throne of Geth
4 Mox Opal
4 Hardened Scales
2 Shrapnel Blast
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
Land
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
2 Gavony Township
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
Maybe Aether Vial can have a place, or Acbound Slith
Champion of the parish
Hada Freeblade
kazandu blademaster
Oran-Rief Survivalist
Abzan Falconer
Mikeaus the lunarch
Simic Intiate
Also in this build Champion of lambholt seems good. Its triggered by Lieutenant, as well as Mikeaus (and itself).
Also is it just me or is Initiate + Lieutenant slightly busted, get Initiate out, toss a counter on it with Lieutenant, then just keep casting humans and keep grafting counters onto all the things.
I would go for a build like this:
4x Hada Freeblade
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Kazandu Blademaster
4x Oran-Rief Survivalist
4x Taurean Mauler
4x Abzan Falconer
4x Æther Vial
Instants (4)
4x Path to Exile
Enchantments (4)
4x Hardened Scales
Lands (20)
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Ancient Ziggurat
2x Ally Encampment
4x Windswept Heath
1x Reflecting Pool
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Other decent options:
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, Stormblood Berserker/Scab-Clan Mauler and Experiment One.
2 cards just got revealed and might go well in a Hardened Scales deck :
Winding Constrictor
Creature -- Snake
If one or more counters would be placed on an artifact or creature you control, that many of those counters plus one are placed on that permanent instead.
If you would get one or more counters, you get that many of those counters plus one instead.
2/3
Greenwheel Liberator
Creature -- Elf Warrior
Revolt — Greenwheel Liberator enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn.
2/1
And a 3rd one that fits the tribal theme :
Metallic Mimic
Creature -- Shapeshifter
As Metallic Mimic enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
Metallic Mimic is the chosen type in addition to it's other types.
Each other creature you control of the chosen type enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.
2/1
Mimic isn't bad, but a little slow for aggro and modern. Another card I would drop in an EDH deck though.
Greenwheel Liberator is a bit more interesting. Problem is that Hardened Scales decks have a lot of solid two drops. Still, this dropping as a 5/4, out of bolt range for 2 mana, is worth considering.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is the real interesting case though. Young Wolf and Strangleroot Geist have synergy with it, as well as Servant of the Scale.
Very rough idea to start with. Could go Mono-green or Jund.
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Experiment One
2 Greenwheel Liberator
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Hardened Scales
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mutant's Prey
4 Rancor
2 Vines of Vastwood
Starts with 2 of its own counters for 2.
Can move counters on upkeep.
I tested in the past Nissa when I was running G/R Hardened Scales. In the end Nissa was nice, but felt a little win more. The reason being is if I had the creatures out to add +1/+1 counters too, I was generally going to win anyways. If she came down on an empty board, I would have perferred to drop a creature and start swinging.
Red gives you the following:
Lightning Bolt - (Great for Aggro or control, one of the best cards in modern)
Volt Charge - (Combines Nissa with a lightning bolt) - this card I have included 1-2. Its an instant, it can strike the face or remove a creature, and it acts as a surprise boost to your creatures. Instant speed should not be overlooked at being a huge factor. Never a bad draw.
Bloodhall Ooze - A great card in counters. With Winding Constrictor I think it can be a big factor.
Rakdos Cackler - A solid one drop. Could be played for either red or black. Works well with Bloodhall Ooze.
Nissa has some repeat impacts, so long term its a good card, but honestly Volt Charge would be the play for me in an aggro deck if I needed mass counter generation from a non-creature source. Remove a creature and boost your team at instant speed. Really hard for decks to deal with it.
Rishkar is a body and gives 2 counters, helping avatar, trigger evolve and can be useful in late game more than nissa. The mana ramp can be useful for defense or extreme cases.
I would play inspiring call as well, perfect for protection protection and buy cards
Batman, overall I like the deck. Endless one seems okay, but seems like a simple beater. If you cast Endless one for 4 with hardened scales out, you have a 5/5 creature. If you cast say Savageborn Hydra instead for 4, you have a 3/3 double-strike creature with Pay 2: Add two counters to the hydra. Even Mistcutter Hydra would be a 4/4 Haste.
One thing I have been looking at cards like strangleroot geist sacrified for eldritch evolution into Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch or Corpsejack Menace on turn 3. Not sure where to go with it, but its something that has potential.
Rishkar doesn't really work since it costs 3. Playing 20/21 lands, you can't have more than 2-3 cards that have a converted mana cost 3. You just won't consistently hit 3 lands on your first 3 turns, especially playing a lot of fetches. Sticking with an aggro land count, either you have 3 Nissa or 3 Riskar.
One card I find useful is Sudden Spoiling in the sideboard. Works against tough creature matchups (soldiers, fairies, elves) that sometimes rely more on abilities like flying and indestructible than pure size with their lords. I find target removal and creature vs creature trading difficult in MTGO with those decks.
Spoiling also works against some of the combo decks will probably become more popular with Aether Revolt. It can't be countered, stops activated abilities from working until it resolves, and wipes the power of creatures, even if they swing with 500 of them.
Some thoughts:
-I like Llanowar alot since you can pay it turn 3, and still drop a creature to immediately boost it possibly with 2 counters. Def very good in an aggro build. But note hardened scales and Constrictor do not add counters to Llanowar as it ETB.
-Basically every card here is green. Although I like constrictor, I wouldn't splash black just for it. I would still side in Fatal push if you desire black to be in the deck.
-I would cut one hardened scales, a liberators and a blossiming defense for 3 Rancor. Your going to want to make sure you can push through damage (lingering souls is everywhere.)
Edit: Just saw this.
I started with your list, but after a little testing I'm leaning towards something more like this:
4 Experiment One
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Blossoming Defense
4 Fatal Push
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Rancor
2 Hardened Scales
4 Blooming Marsh
5 Forest
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
I think the amount of removal is going to rise a lot with Fatal Push, and I really found myself wanting a way to protect the creatures I'd invested work putting counters into. So I think 4x of either Blossoming Defense or Vines is going to be needed, not sure which. For cuts, multiples of Hardened Scales felt pretty bad, I usually didn't have enough gas to make up for it, and it was also usually a poor turn 1 play, so I'm going to try dropping to two. Nissa, VoZ is also something I often didn't want to see, she only felt great when I was already ahead, so I'm running less of her to make spots for protection. Last, I think Rancor really needs to be a 4x to ensure that we have trampling threats to push damage through chump blockers. It also goes nicely with protection spells to make sure we don't get blown out. Finally, with only 2 3-mana spells I think I can drop to 20 lands safely.
4 Experiment One
4 Narnam Renegade
3 Rakdos Cackler
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Greenwheel Liberator
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Hardened Scales
1 Blossoming Defense
2 Domri Rade
1 Volt Charge
Lands (20)
6 Forest
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Llanowar Reborn
Very early build for MTGO later this month I will be trying. Aggro centered. Nissa, VoZ I am unsure about, but it does work really well with Hidden Herbalists, so the deck might keep evolving.
For those playing Nissa she likes a lot of creature. Without a token build, I feel cards like Hidden Herbalists are strong with her. Nissa is also capable of a turn 3 win in an highly unlikely, but possible scenario if you use Hidden Herbalists. Mono-green is the build for that though.
Turn 1, Land, Experiment one(1/1) - Turn 2, fetch, Hidden Herbalists(2/2), Hardened Scales, Narnam Renegade (3/4) [Experiment One now a 4/4 and swings] - Turn 3, Nissa (-2). Experiment One is a 6/6, Herbalists a 4/4, Renegade a 5/6, swing for possible lethal (assuming they cracked a fetch.)
4 Experiment One
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Greenwheel Liberator
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Winding Constrictor
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
Spells:14
3 Blossoming Defense
4 Fatal Push
2 Hardened Scales
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Fog
2 Natural State
3 Retribution of the Ancients
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
* 08 x 1CMC Creatures
* 16 x 2CMC Creatures
* 02 x 3CMC Creatures (Focus on Counters)
* 02 x 3CMC Planeswalkers (Focus on Counters)
* 02 x 1CMC Hardened Scales
* 04 x 1CMC Removal
* 06 x 1CMC Protection/Pump
* 04 x Basic Lands
* 04 x Fast Lands
* 02 x Shock Lands
* 10 x Fetch Lands
-- Sideboard
Cards I wouldn't change: Retribution of the Ancients and Heroic Intervention.
---
What do you guys think of that approach?
1 - Splash R just to cast Bloodhall Ooze ?
2 - If we reach 30 Creatures, should we consider Æther Vial ?
To make room for Ooze, cut 2-greenwheel, and then cut the two Rishkar. Rishkar's mana ability is nearly irrelavant, and other than give out a counter or two doesnt do anything (no trample?) For three mana, I would want something better.
20 lands, 10 fetches. I wouldn't play more than 2 spells that cost 3.
LLanowar reborn is great in a deck with a lot of 1 or 2 drops that is playing 21 or less lands. Turn 3 you drop Llanowar tapped, play an Avatar or Scavenging Ooze, and immediately give it two counters.
Build your deck assuming hardened scales/Constrictor is not on the battlefield. It is a soft combo, and this deck will probably see tier 3 play. People will realize if you path to exile a constrictor, the deck turns into a possibly mediocre stompy deck. A lot of your creatures are still solid without Hardened Scales effects, but make sure they have viability if scales effects are not there. That is why I don't like Riskar. He doesn't really do much if you top-deck it. One card I love is Dromoka's Command, since in this deck it does so many things for us and interacts with other decks if need be. Splashing white also gives a great sideboard and removal options. But that is different testing.
That is why Allies hardened Scales has been the only one that has shown real viability in modern. If hardened Scales is removed, it still is an incredibility powerful creature deck with a ton of synergy. Not a hint of fat on it.
So when you build think of your strategy, and see where hardened scales can help it without hurting it. It is easy for hardened scales to be a win more card.
Remember with thoughtseize they have to take a card, it isn't optional, so if they top deck and play seize, if you have a land and a Dodecapod in your hand they have to take the dodecapod.