It has the Human creature type once it enters the battlefield.
The problem here is you have to choose between naming "human" or "ally". Most of the time "ally" is going to be the better choice because more ETBs in the deck trigger off an ally entering the battlefield.
Well this makes total sense then. Yes, Ally would be the better of the two.
Then that brings up the point...why play Champ in an Ally deck? Yes, they all are humans but if you want to stick with the Ally theme, play as many allies as you can. I can see Automaton as the lord, but have you checked out Jwari Shapeshifter?
Well this makes total sense then. Yes, Ally would be the better of the two.
Then that brings up the point...why play Champ in an Ally deck? Yes, they all are humans but if you want to stick with the Ally theme, play as many allies as you can. I can see Automaton as the lord, but have you checked out Jwari Shapeshifter?
I have considered Jwari Shapeshifter, but we'd have to go to a 4th color to accommodate that. Champion of the Parish is triggered by over 20 creatures in the deck and gives us a very needed 1 drop in an aggro deck. There are enough allies that happen to be human for it to work out.
I guess you're right about Throne of Geth. I want to keep the curve of this deck low, though, so when I take out Throne I want to bring in something that also costs 2. That leaves Harabaz Druid and Ondu Cleric...well, no real choice here, Druid is a Human and gives me mana to dump into Herald of Anafenza.
Yeah, Harabaz Druid seems strictly better in this deck. Since the deck has so many creatures what do you think about Lead the Stampede coming in from the side board?
I would run at least one if not two, just as a late game mana sink with good upsides for the deck. I still don't like splashing black for one creature. You weaken the overall mana base (to blood moon at least) and take more damage, while not running the most powerful black cards.
Edit- I see the point of the Throne, but I feel like there is probably a better card to run out there.
I guess you're right about Throne of Geth. I want to keep the curve of this deck low, though, so when I take out Throne I want to bring in something that also costs 2. That leaves Harabaz Druid and Ondu Cleric...well, no real choice here, Druid is a Human and gives me mana to dump into Herald of Anafenza.
I know I might be getting greedy, but what do you think about splashing blue for Mothdust Changeling and Jwari Shapeshifter? Getting the effect of Harabaz Druid for one less mana can only make the deck faster right?
Any thoughts on Bramblewood Paragon? He is basically a lord that gives everything trample. He is on color, and even has great synergy with Oran-Rief Survivalist, Bojuka Brigand, Hamlet Captain. He is not a human, but there is a lot synergy that he has with a lot of cards that are going into this deck. Personally, I don't think that synergy with Champion of the Parish should be the end all be all test of whether a card belongs in the deck or not. I think you have to look at synergy with the overall deck and not just one card in the deck. I think it could have a place in the deck that maxes out on cards that have common synergies with both Champion of the Parish and Bramblewood Paragon.
Why did noone mention Gavony Township yet?
Seems like a natural fit, we are already in GW/x and it is good alone,
and bonkers with Hardened Scales.
5 mana is a lot for an aggro deck. I think that is why. It could work in a midrange build build, though. The problem is a midrange version of this deck probably wouldn't be very good.
Why did noone mention Gavony Township yet?
Seems like a natural fit, we are already in GW/x and it is good alone,
and bonkers with Hardened Scales.
5 mana is a lot for an aggro deck. I think that is why. It could work in a midrange build build, though. The problem is a midrange version of this deck probably wouldn't be very good.
Most of the decks mentioned in this thread play between 21-24 lands and not to many cards with double colored mana requirement, so one or two colorless sources woudn't hurt the manabase to hard.
Also this deck will not win every game before the 5th round, so including a card that will not have a significant drawback and helps you in some cases doesn't sound to bad, in my opinion.
Since we're getting into wacky speculation now, what about Champion of Lambholt? She's a Human and a warrior, so she makes HC and BP happy and gets goofy with scales out but is still good when you don't.
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Bramblewood Paragon is not a true lord. You need to cast it first, THEN cast your other creatures. If you cast your other creatures first then Paragon, it just grants trample. You don't get any counters out of it.
"But isn't Hardened Scales the same?" No it isn't. Scales triggers every time your Champion/Allies trigger. Paragon only triggers once per creature.
I am very confused why this isn't here yet... æther vial
I'm not sure I want to share my list quite yet but it seems like an auto include in a deck that wants as many cratures as possible on the battlefield as fast as possible and wants to avoid counterspells.
The deck wants as many creatures as possible, so there aren't a lot of spots for non-creature spells. Given the choice between vial and travel prep, I would take the travel prep.
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Bramblewood Paragon is not a true lord. You need to cast it first, THEN cast your other creatures. If you cast your other creatures first then Paragon, it just grants trample. You don't get any counters out of it.
"But isn't Hardened Scales the same?" No it isn't. Scales triggers every time your Champion/Allies trigger. Paragon only triggers once per creature.
This is true. I think it could open the door for Experiment One finding its way back onto the list, though. Between Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Adaptive Automaton, and Kabira Evangel you've got a lot of ways to evolve it now. It also appears that we are getting some nice Human Warriors in Khans. Bloodstained Brave and War-Name Aspirant aren't half bad. I think that the color makes War-Name Aspirant a no go, but the other card looks playable in this deck. I think Experiment One and Bloodstained Brave are probably competing for that last spot if someone is going to try to build around the elf warrior. I think it is possible to play off of the tribal synergies with Warriors, but I think I am in agreement with you that the deck should focus on humans and allies. Allies are the most efficient abusers of Hardened Scales and they all play well together.
I did read in the rumored ruling forum that Hardened Scales works the same way that Corpsejack Menace works. So Simic Initiate seems like a really strong card because its counters get doubled twice. It would come in the battlefield as a 2/2, and then every time it grafts the counters double again. So you are potentially getting 4 power and 4 toughness out of a 1 drop. And that doesn't count the counters it could put on Champion.
That seems like a really strong start. On turn 2 you are swinging in with a 3/3 and you've got a 2/2 on the battlefield that could turn your Oran-Rief Survivalist/Bojuka Brigand/Kazandu Blademaster into a 5/5 the turn it comes into play. This Scenario seems pretty strong too:
So now you've got a 4/5 and a 1/1 on turn 2. Next turn you can swing in with a 6/7 Hada Freeblade and have a 5/5 2 drop ally waiting to swing in next turn. That is gross. That obviously ignores the fact that your opponent could have Path/Bolt/Decay but that is a wicked fast start.
Since we're getting into wacky speculation now, what about Champion of Lambholt? She's a Human and a warrior, so she makes HC and BP happy and gets goofy with scales out but is still good when you don't.
I think it is too much mana. 3 mana typically needs to be bolt proof or have a pretty significant ETB. There is just no other way to slice it than Kabira Evangel and Adaptive Automaton simply do more for 3 mana. Basically there is nothing more powerful than playing a human ally when you get into the 2-3 CMC range in this deck.
Adaptive Automaton does trigger allies if you choose Ally as it's creature type. That being said, I'm not entirely sold on him either. Mirror Entity isn't a bad idea though, but like Automaton even though it's an ally it will only trigger things once.
Okay, vial did pretty good in testing as "lands" 22-24.
I think that unless you can dig for Hardened Scales, this deck will have a tough time dealing with the current metagame. Dark Confidant may be a welcome addition in a deck full of 1cc and 2cc spells.
The two Outlast creatures fail the Bolt test. At least Evangel and Automaton trigger your allies, so you get some value out of them even if they end up eating a Bolt.
Have to agree with LordGrimpow. I've played Aether Vial and Dark Confidant together; they greatly enable a creature deck with this type of curve to run smoothly. I also think that with Vial and Hardened Scales, you really don't want more than 4 other one drops.
Some other cards not mentioned that I think might be useful: Solidarity of Heroes - I've played with it, and it can bring lethal from out of nowhere. Primordial Hydra - Playing him for 1GG on turn 3 with hardened scales, he is a 2/2 turn 3, 5/5 turn 4, and a 11/11 trampler turn 5.
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Well this makes total sense then. Yes, Ally would be the better of the two.
Then that brings up the point...why play Champ in an Ally deck? Yes, they all are humans but if you want to stick with the Ally theme, play as many allies as you can. I can see Automaton as the lord, but have you checked out Jwari Shapeshifter?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
I have considered Jwari Shapeshifter, but we'd have to go to a 4th color to accommodate that. Champion of the Parish is triggered by over 20 creatures in the deck and gives us a very needed 1 drop in an aggro deck. There are enough allies that happen to be human for it to work out.
Yeah, Harabaz Druid seems strictly better in this deck. Since the deck has so many creatures what do you think about Lead the Stampede coming in from the side board?
If you really want to go strictly G/W, then I would suggest you replace Bojuka Brigand with Hamlet Captain or Mayor of Avabruck. You could also give Ajani, Caller of the Pride or Ajani Goldmane a try.
I know I might be getting greedy, but what do you think about splashing blue for Mothdust Changeling and Jwari Shapeshifter? Getting the effect of Harabaz Druid for one less mana can only make the deck faster right?
Edit: maybe Talus Paladin's spot?
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|| WBG || GW || GB || GWU ||
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Oran-Rief Survivalist
3 Mirror Entity
3 Abzan Battle Priest
2 Cytoplast Root-Kin
4 Hardened Scales
3 Throne of Geth
3 Aether Vial
3 Incremental Growth
Lands (20)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Temple Garden
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Windswept Heath
2 Gavony Township
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Seems like a natural fit, we are already in GW/x and it is good alone,
and bonkers with Hardened Scales.
I definitely wouldn't play it in the 3C version because your mana base already hurts you enough.
Anyway in 3C and GW I think Adaptive Automaton is better at 3 mana.
4 Marsh Flats
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
1 Forest
4 Hada Freeblade
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Oran-Rief Survivalist
4 Harabaz Druid
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Kabira Evangel
3 Adaptive Automaton
4 Path to Exile
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
5 mana is a lot for an aggro deck. I think that is why. It could work in a midrange build build, though. The problem is a midrange version of this deck probably wouldn't be very good.
Most of the decks mentioned in this thread play between 21-24 lands and not to many cards with double colored mana requirement, so one or two colorless sources woudn't hurt the manabase to hard.
Also this deck will not win every game before the 5th round, so including a card that will not have a significant drawback and helps you in some cases doesn't sound to bad, in my opinion.
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Thallid won't work because it uses spore counters not +1/+1 counters.
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"But isn't Hardened Scales the same?" No it isn't. Scales triggers every time your Champion/Allies trigger. Paragon only triggers once per creature.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Gavony does seem a touch slow for us though.
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The deck wants as many creatures as possible, so there aren't a lot of spots for non-creature spells. Given the choice between vial and travel prep, I would take the travel prep.
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This is true. I think it could open the door for Experiment One finding its way back onto the list, though. Between Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Adaptive Automaton, and Kabira Evangel you've got a lot of ways to evolve it now. It also appears that we are getting some nice Human Warriors in Khans. Bloodstained Brave and War-Name Aspirant aren't half bad. I think that the color makes War-Name Aspirant a no go, but the other card looks playable in this deck. I think Experiment One and Bloodstained Brave are probably competing for that last spot if someone is going to try to build around the elf warrior. I think it is possible to play off of the tribal synergies with Warriors, but I think I am in agreement with you that the deck should focus on humans and allies. Allies are the most efficient abusers of Hardened Scales and they all play well together.
I did read in the rumored ruling forum that Hardened Scales works the same way that Corpsejack Menace works. So Simic Initiate seems like a really strong card because its counters get doubled twice. It would come in the battlefield as a 2/2, and then every time it grafts the counters double again. So you are potentially getting 4 power and 4 toughness out of a 1 drop. And that doesn't count the counters it could put on Champion.
I could see a scenario like this playing out:
Turn 1: Land, Champion of the Parish
Turn 2: Land, Hardened Scales, Simic Initiate
That seems like a really strong start. On turn 2 you are swinging in with a 3/3 and you've got a 2/2 on the battlefield that could turn your Oran-Rief Survivalist/Bojuka Brigand/Kazandu Blademaster into a 5/5 the turn it comes into play. This Scenario seems pretty strong too:
Turn 1: Land, Hardened Scales
Turn 2: Land, Simic Initiate, Hada Freeblade
So now you've got a 4/5 and a 1/1 on turn 2. Next turn you can swing in with a 6/7 Hada Freeblade and have a 5/5 2 drop ally waiting to swing in next turn. That is gross. That obviously ignores the fact that your opponent could have Path/Bolt/Decay but that is a wicked fast start.
I think it is too much mana. 3 mana typically needs to be bolt proof or have a pretty significant ETB. There is just no other way to slice it than Kabira Evangel and Adaptive Automaton simply do more for 3 mana. Basically there is nothing more powerful than playing a human ally when you get into the 2-3 CMC range in this deck.
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Okay, vial did pretty good in testing as "lands" 22-24.
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|| WBG || GW || GB || GWU ||
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
You must have a very loose definition of "tier 2".
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Some other cards not mentioned that I think might be useful:
Solidarity of Heroes - I've played with it, and it can bring lethal from out of nowhere.
Primordial Hydra - Playing him for 1GG on turn 3 with hardened scales, he is a 2/2 turn 3, 5/5 turn 4, and a 11/11 trampler turn 5.