I've been looking for an adequate archetype to fit Necromancer's Stockpile and Shambling Shell. In my exploration of the combo, I've found it's very good at winning the game by itself, albeit it's very mana-hungry. It's a great source of value and inevitability for an aggro deck like Dredgevine, but it's much slower than just casting creatures with haste. It gets hated very hard in strategies that rely too much on the graveyard. And straight B/G rock would rather adhere to its strategy of removal, disruption, and high-value creatures.
I've found Death Cloud is definitely the best archetype to fit the combo in. Death Cloud thrives on high amounts of mana, doesn't rely too hard on the graveyard, and is disruptive enough to get the Stockpile/Shell combo up and running. This is what I've got so far:
This is an early draft that I've liked so far. Instead of efficient beaters or Death Cloud-friendly planeswalkers, this is all about pushing the mana advantage. Death Cloud and Stockpile are the main mana sinks, with Raven's Crime supplanting them. I need to see a couple more matches before I determine what direction is best, but for now I'm happy to find a great place to fit the Stockile/Shell combo.
I'm surprised this isn't a junk deck that goes with sakura tribe elder, lingering souls, and kitchen finks and then tries to hit as big a death cloud as possible. Seems silly to be trying to prime time and use dorks that will just straight die to the cloud.
That's what it used to be at one point in the old death cloud thread. But I don't remember it ever seeing any significant results. There's still enough cards between Finks, Thragtusk, and Garruk (and maybe treetop village) for Death Cloud to be playable. If not, Titan can still tutor up Kessig Wolf Run for the beatdown. If nothing else, what would be fun to pull off is using the blocks and lifegain to create enough of a life difference that a massive death cloud can be used to just straight up kill the opponent without killing myself.
gotcha. I guess I've played against death cloud a few times and thought it was good the way it was. It really seems like the problem was just not enough people were actually piloting the deck rather than it not being competitive.
I've been looking for an adequate archetype to fit Necromancer's Stockpile and Shambling Shell. In my exploration of the combo, I've found it's very good at winning the game by itself, albeit it's very mana-hungry. It's a great source of value and inevitability for an aggro deck like Dredgevine, but it's much slower than just casting creatures with haste. It gets hated very hard in strategies that rely too much on the graveyard. And straight B/G rock would rather adhere to its strategy of removal, disruption, and high-value creatures.
I've found Death Cloud is definitely the best archetype to fit the combo in. Death Cloud thrives on high amounts of mana, doesn't rely too hard on the graveyard, and is disruptive enough to get the Stockpile/Shell combo up and running. This is what I've got so far:
This is an early draft that I've liked so far. Instead of efficient beaters or Death Cloud-friendly planeswalkers, this is all about pushing the mana advantage. Death Cloud and Stockpile are the main mana sinks, with Raven's Crime supplanting them. I need to see a couple more matches before I determine what direction is best, but for now I'm happy to find a great place to fit the Stockile/Shell combo.
gotcha. I guess I've played against death cloud a few times and thought it was good the way it was. It really seems like the problem was just not enough people were actually piloting the deck rather than it not being competitive.
You are correct. Cloud isn't a sexy meta deck so people don't play it. It's a 50/50 deck that you have to be better than your opponent to win with.
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its funny, yeah I agree its not pretty winning off super lame persisted 2/1's, but I was under the impression that everyone thinks they're the better until they sit down across from a pro they know--surprised that keeps the deck down.
I actually popped in to see if anything new was up and I think the amulet of vigor is a really cool addition, I'm surprised more decks don't run it just to play with all the best tap lands.
Hello, new poster here. I have been working on a G/B deck using Death Cloud for a while now. Have brought it to several fairly competitive FNM's with decent results. It has been evolving slowly, but here is the latest list, leaning towards more land destruction and slowly gaining various advantages to grind out wins.
1) Probably stupid but could mono black work here? Use Crypt Ghasts or Magus of the Coffers to ramp into clouds? Probably too clunky and too slow but thought I'd ask
2) Do we have any thoughts on Smallpox, none of the lists I've seen seem to play it, any particular reason why?
3) Again probably not a good suggestion but Death's Shadow could get pretty big here! What with shocking, fetching, thoughtseizing and clouding I could see times where he could be bigger than Goyfs! (Also the Vorthos in me would love to have both Death Cloud and Death's Shadow in one deck!)
1) Probably stupid but could mono black work here? Use Crypt Ghasts or Magus of the Coffers to ramp into clouds? Probably too clunky and too slow but thought I'd ask
2) Do we have any thoughts on Smallpox, none of the lists I've seen seem to play it, any particular reason why?
3) Again probably not a good suggestion but Death's Shadow could get pretty big here! What with shocking, fetching, thoughtseizing and clouding I could see times where he could be bigger than Goyfs! (Also the Vorthos in me would love to have both Death Cloud and Death's Shadow in one deck!)
Small Pox doesn't sit well with a ramp style deck that want's a big Death Cloud. Don't get me wrong, Small Pox is a great card and I ran it the the board against control for awhile, but I had to pull Clouds to do it.
At any rate I will be revisiting Death Cloud soon. I want to start Testing with a BUG Walker variant. I will get a list together soon and start testing. I will keep you guys posted.
It's a bit more conventional, a bit oldschool, and just seems to work really well. Again, the sideboard is sort of experimental. Outside of the super hard matchups, one of the most consistent issues I have is with opposing Persist creatures; they ruin the one-sided aspect of our sweepers and threaten the 'walkers. Finks is really popular and Pod is a menace in general. Hence BSZ and Unmake. Why Unmake? Because it also gets rid of those stupid Wurmcoils and it's arguably less narrow than something like Deglamer or Splinter or whatever. I feel like Leyline is necessary in my meta due to Living End; it might be better served as Grafdigger's Cage or even Relic of Progenitus.
From my initial playtesting, Nissa is living up to my expectations. I have changed my mana base to 24 lands and 11 of them are forests (4 Overgrown Tombs, 7 Basics). I average close to 3 untap lands with Nissa which is what I was hoping for. I want another copy to try her as a 2 of. I tried Death Clouding for all my lands minus 1 and it's hilarious if not awkward. I usually have another walker with Nissa and it's pretty much a lockout.
As you've mentioned, Pod is a really really bad matchup for our deck. I found them to be almost like a mirror match as they play the same annoying creatures we do and even Damnation doesn't do the trick. I may have to resort adding a BSZ into my sideboard as well. Unmake is another interesting card but I feel it might be much better for Cloud decks that include a white splash. Triple black is pretty heavy on the mana for a kill spell. But then again if you're playing white, you're probably just going to play Path to Exile.
Deglamer or Unravel the Aether isn't just for Wurmcoil. It's also decent against Affinity as basically more copies of Abrupt Decay.
It's a bit more conventional, a bit oldschool, and just seems to work really well. Again, the sideboard is sort of experimental. Outside of the super hard matchups, one of the most consistent issues I have is with opposing Persist creatures; they ruin the one-sided aspect of our sweepers and threaten the 'walkers. Finks is really popular and Pod is a menace in general. Hence BSZ and Unmake. Why Unmake? Because it also gets rid of those stupid Wurmcoils and it's arguably less narrow than something like Deglamer or Splinter or whatever. I feel like Leyline is necessary in my meta due to Living End; it might be better served as Grafdigger's Cage or even Relic of Progenitus.
Now Relic is another interesting idea and it works here because this list totally forgoes any sort of graveyard value. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Before I arrived at this list, I was testing a white splash version with Lingering Souls and as I tweaked it more and more, I ended up thinking "Wait, aren't I just playing bad Junk?". Without Goyf or Snappy, the incentive to punish other decks for trying to squeeze card advantage out of the 'yard probably outweighs trying to do it ourselves. So doesn't that mean you should just play Scooze? Well yeah, but if Living End's not around and I feel like I need some dedicated grave hate anyway, I'm gonna try Relic.
Now this list makes me proud This is where you want to be in this deck. I've seen way too many decks with a heavy creature focus. In a deck based around killing creatures, you want your ramp to be lands.
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Has anyone else been testing this with Nissa? I've been using 2 nissa/3 Lili/3Garruk + 2 Scooze mainboard and have beaten RG Tron and Jund much more consistently due to their O stones, Decays, Bolts, Angers, and so on missing my lands. Unfortunately I haven't been able to test against pod, twin, or storm, of which pod and twin would be very hard matchups imo. Any input?
Has anyone else been testing this with Nissa? I've been using 2 nissa/3 Lili/3Garruk + 2 Scooze mainboard and have beaten RG Tron and Jund much more consistently due to their O stones, Decays, Bolts, Angers, and so on missing my lands. Unfortunately I haven't been able to test against pod, twin, or storm, of which pod and twin would be very hard matchups imo. Any input?
Haven't posted in a while, looks like we have another new thread.
Honestly I don't think the new Nissa is at all viable, it's basically just Garruk that costs one more mana. Turning a land into a creature is also pretty risky since it's not like we present that many removal targets. Anyway, if you guys like her that's cool, have fun with her, but I'm not running it anytime soon
Waste Not is nice, but we really don't have enough to enable it.
Speaking of alternate planeswalkers, I think Vraska is really poorly positioned now that Jund is seeing less play, her best use was in that matchup imo.
I've been running a different style of cloud deck for the past few months, here it is:
Went 5-2 at the Melbourne PTQ- lost to Living End and Merfolk, which are both fairly ordinary match-ups for this build. Beat Angel Pod, Merfolk, Soul Sisters, Tarmo-Twin and Tempo Twin.
I don't think it is really realistic to be able to beat either "normal" pod or Angel Pod without running red or seriously warping the deck. Chandra and Anger really do make all the difference in the match-up. Raging Ravine is also a much better manland than Treetop at killing people. The cost of course is that the manabase is a little shaky- Blood Moon is beatable, but you'd better anticipate it and plan accordingly.
This build does fine against all the tier one deck like Pod, Twin, Affinity, UWR and Jund but will struggle vs Merfolk, Living End and Griselcombo. Pretty much everything else is fine though. I will say in advance- it's even less forgiving of play errors than the standard G/B build- if you mess up your mana you will pay the price. It's great fun though! I might put some videos together at some point if I can find the time and people are interested.
Round 1 vs. Zoo (1-1)
I beat her easily in game one. Game two I wiped her out again, but she kept top decking threats. I kept having to use value cards to keep her from killing me. Went to turns and she was finally able to land a Lightning Helix and end me. Round was a draw.
Round 2 vs. Mindslaver (0-2)
I hate Mindslaver. This round went FOREVER. I won't bore you with the details.
Round 3 vs. Aggro Wolves (2-0)
Killed creatures. It's what we do.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk (0-2)
Had to mulligan to 4! Held on for a long time, but no good. Sided in Choke. Never saw the freaking card.
I basically had mana issues the whole night as I was trying to splash white to be able to use Lingering Souls. It was lackluster. (Except against Zoo, it was an all star.) Post tourney some of us tech decked a little. I still want Stony Silence in my sideboard, so I plan on keeping a Plains and a Godless Shrine. Someone suggested Solemn Simulacrum as an additional mana fixer and card advantage. I'll try it. I plan on getting a third Liliana of the Veil too. Now before you poo poo Garruk, Apex Predator. He was awesome against Mindslaver. He played Wurmcoil Engine. I landed Apex, made a 3/3 deathtoucher. Traded the deathtoucher for his engine and pulsed the tokens. Apex still on board. Made more 3/3's. One from ultimate and he bounced him back to my hand. Nissa was cool too. In one game I had her and a Darksteel Citadel on board. Funny combo.
Everyone that beat me, did it by the skin of their teeth or because I misplayed.
I love the Death Cloud deck and feel like it's on the edge. I like the idea of moving away from the heavy creature builds. I'm going to be experimenting with manlands and walkers myself. I even toyed with the idea of a Mutavault or Inkmoth Nexus for early beats. Dunno.
The predator Garruk would be sweet except that it's a Garruk and Wildspeaker is super important..
I agree, Garruk is super important. The way I used him was that post Death Cloud I was able to drop a land, ramp with a STEVE, use Garruk W. to untap and land a Predator. While I lose Garruk W. I gain 3/3 deathtouchers, creature removal and planeswalker removal if necessary. If I need a second ramp into a second Death Cloud, I'm probably in trouble. Plus, I'm running Nissa and would LOVE to have her on the board. Anyways, it's experimental and it's fun so far.
I think you have too much "good stuff" in your sideboard, I don't really see the point in sideboarding cards like Eternal Witness. If it's not good enough maindeck, which matchups is it there for? If you want to have a better lategame, why not just run something like Grave Titan?
I don't see you beating Pod very consistently with that sideboard, I think you'll find you need more than 1 Zenith+Betrayal. Graveyard hate will help a bit here too. I also wouldn't feel confident playing against Jund with that deck, the risk of them out-valuing you seems pretty high. It might be fine though.
You shouldn't have too many problems with Twin with 4xDecay, I think if you have less generic good cards in your sideboard you'll find it easier to sideboard for the matchup.
The changes I already want to make are -1 Garruk Wildspeaker, -2 Solemn Simulacarum, +3 Liliana of the Veil. I have a light white splash in my deck (1 Plains, 2 Temple Garden) solely for Stony Silence and Rest in Peace out of the board. The only other card that I could see putting in would be Lingering Souls, but I'm not sure if that is worth it, or if it turns us into just a bad junk deck (as stated earlier). My highlight of the deck so far is the beautiful T5 Nissa, +1, into Garruk.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I just don't get Death Cloud. Perhaps I need to jam some into my Budget BG build and give it a try.
3 Nihil Spellbombs in the board seems like a lot of GY hate which does seem relevant with Death Clouds filling the yard but would a 4th Scooze be better?
AND 2 Surgical Extractions? I'm torn here but I think alongside the spellbombs it's just too much. These seem like they should be Grafdigger's Cage. What's the plan for Pod?
I know a lot of people really like 1 or 2 Eternal Witness, but I think it all depends on what you are getting back. I think it looses a lot of value if you're not getting back a Goyf or LotV. I'm not sure a random Eternal Witness post DC is worth it, but again I have no experience with it.
Speaking of Lili, where is she? I completely understand if she's not here due to budget reasons but she is the best Planeswalker....
2 Tec Edges MB and 3 Rain of Tears in the SB seems a tad too middle ground. I'd go a bit more or a bit less.
I think the need to ramp so far ahead with DC is a big drawback. I would think a repeatable effect, or a card advantage effect would be more desirable along the lines of Cultivate or Greenseeker but I know they're too slow. I run Sylvan Scrying in the slot but I'm not looking to ramp into DC, but rather for utility lands. Steve seems more about the 1/1 body than anything else which is relevant against Aggro, but only in the early game. With Steve, he seems only relevant early but 4 copies just doesn't cut it to ensure you drop him T2 or T3. I'm never sad to top deck a Sylvan Scrying b/c I can grab a Tec Edge or Tree Top, both of which are relevant late game.
I think the need to ramp so far ahead with DC is a big drawback. I would think a repeatable effect, or a card advantage effect would be more desirable along the lines of Cultivate or Greenseeker but I know they're too slow. I run Sylvan Scrying in the slot but I'm not looking to ramp into DC, but rather for utility lands. Steve seems more about the 1/1 body than anything else which is relevant against Aggro, but only in the early game. With Steve, he seems only relevant early but 4 copies just doesn't cut it to ensure you drop him T2 or T3. I'm never sad to top deck a Sylvan Scrying b/c I can grab a Tec Edge or Tree Top, both of which are relevant late game.
My thinking for Death Cloud is that it's not always all about ramping into a huge game ending Cloud by actively trying to outramp your opponent. Sakura-Tribe Elder is what most decks only need. Most non-Control decks are usually looking to hit their sweet spot of lands and just draw gas for the rest of the game. It's even better if your opponent misses even 1 land drop early-mid game and you can just punish them for it with a moderately sized Cloud. There's a bunch of other scenarios I've played where Death Cloud is not just a big X spell, but rather a small tactical one. I would easily go for a Death Cloud where X=1 on T3 from ramping with a Sakura-Tribe Elder if my opponent had one creature on board and two lands. It just messes with their tempo so much especially since most opponents I've played only can follow with a total of 2-3 lands for the rest of the game.
I can't find the exact post but someone somewhere basically said Tempo isn't great in Modern b/c it's too difficult to protect an early threat. It's too easy for decks to just push into the mid/late game so Tempo needed some card to keep the game in the early stages. I would submit that Death Cloud and Smallpox is looking to do that: push the game back into the early stage or keep it there. The problem is that while the effect looks symmetrical it isn't. You needed to spend the mana and the card to pull off the effect and your opponent gets the first opportunity to rebuild.
Consider the tactical Death Cloud you mentioned where X=1. This is very similar to Smallpox but at CMC 2 rather than 4. Instead of a 3 for 3, this is really a 3 for 4. The marginal value of going from 3 to 4 cards is pretty high. The counterargument is that these decks are built to abuse the symmetry of the effect via Finks and/or a Flagstones of Trokiar/Dakmoor Salvage. At best this is now a 3 for 1, because that 1 card will always be the card to produce the effect. While a 3 for 1 is great, it's practically never that. If you pitch Lingering Souls you're only getting the 2 1/1 flyers out of it. While that may be worth a card in Limited it isn't in Modern.
The value of DC is that it scales up. X could be 3 in which case it is along the lines of a 9 for 10. The value of going from the 9th card to the 10th card is pretty minimal in that situation. It's also easier to eek out corner case value over more cards to further narrow the gap in disparity. While your targeted tactical DC isn't to be disregarded, the real value of DC is resetting a late game board state and hands back to an early/developmental one. There's a reason Smallpox has been dismissed in this build. You could run a DC list but with Smallpox instead of DC and it would play out fundamentally different.
This brings us to Sakura Tribe Elder. If the value of DC is its ability to bring the game back to an early stage, that means you're extending the duration discard and ramp is valuable. Even extending the duration still means you're running both together which I think is fragile. Overall, in a vacuum, Discard is stronger than ramp, which is why I'm giving Steve the stink eye. If the important issue with DC is fundamentally a card advantage one, then a draw card seems like it would be better in that slot b/c it holds its value over the entire duration of the game.
It seems the ideal sequence for a DC Deck is something like:
T1 = Discard
T2 = STE
T3 = Garruk
T4 = Finks x2
T5 = Death Cloud
Consider the following card: (B/G)(B/G)
Draw 2 Cards.
I don't think much of anything is lost if our hypothetical draw spell replaces STE in that sequence which becomes something like:
T1 = Discard
T2 = Draw
T3 = Finks
T4 = Garruk
T5 = Death Cloud
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't any value to 4 mana on T3. I'm just asking, taken as a whole, is Steve really that good to not go with something a tad more consistent while still playing to the strengths of what the deck is trying to do?
I've found Death Cloud is definitely the best archetype to fit the combo in. Death Cloud thrives on high amounts of mana, doesn't rely too hard on the graveyard, and is disruptive enough to get the Stockpile/Shell combo up and running. This is what I've got so far:
3 Shambling Shell
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Oracle of Mul-Daya
1 Raven's Crime
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Necromancer's Stockpile
2 Life from the Loam
3 Explore
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Death Cloud
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
2 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
This is an early draft that I've liked so far. Instead of efficient beaters or Death Cloud-friendly planeswalkers, this is all about pushing the mana advantage. Death Cloud and Stockpile are the main mana sinks, with Raven's Crime supplanting them. I need to see a couple more matches before I determine what direction is best, but for now I'm happy to find a great place to fit the Stockile/Shell combo.
That's what it used to be at one point in the old death cloud thread. But I don't remember it ever seeing any significant results. There's still enough cards between Finks, Thragtusk, and Garruk (and maybe treetop village) for Death Cloud to be playable. If not, Titan can still tutor up Kessig Wolf Run for the beatdown. If nothing else, what would be fun to pull off is using the blocks and lifegain to create enough of a life difference that a massive death cloud can be used to just straight up kill the opponent without killing myself.
That seems like a really good idea.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You are correct. Cloud isn't a sexy meta deck so people don't play it. It's a 50/50 deck that you have to be better than your opponent to win with.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I actually popped in to see if anything new was up and I think the amulet of vigor is a really cool addition, I'm surprised more decks don't run it just to play with all the best tap lands.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Eternal Witness
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Ravens Crime
3 Life From the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrefy
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sudden Death
3 Death Cloud
4 Treetop Village
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1) Probably stupid but could mono black work here? Use Crypt Ghasts or Magus of the Coffers to ramp into clouds? Probably too clunky and too slow but thought I'd ask
2) Do we have any thoughts on Smallpox, none of the lists I've seen seem to play it, any particular reason why?
3) Again probably not a good suggestion but Death's Shadow could get pretty big here! What with shocking, fetching, thoughtseizing and clouding I could see times where he could be bigger than Goyfs! (Also the Vorthos in me would love to have both Death Cloud and Death's Shadow in one deck!)
Small Pox doesn't sit well with a ramp style deck that want's a big Death Cloud. Don't get me wrong, Small Pox is a great card and I ran it the the board against control for awhile, but I had to pull Clouds to do it.
At any rate I will be revisiting Death Cloud soon. I want to start Testing with a BUG Walker variant. I will get a list together soon and start testing. I will keep you guys posted.
PS, this is Xmas from the former thread.
From my initial playtesting, Nissa is living up to my expectations. I have changed my mana base to 24 lands and 11 of them are forests (4 Overgrown Tombs, 7 Basics). I average close to 3 untap lands with Nissa which is what I was hoping for. I want another copy to try her as a 2 of. I tried Death Clouding for all my lands minus 1 and it's hilarious if not awkward. I usually have another walker with Nissa and it's pretty much a lockout.
As you've mentioned, Pod is a really really bad matchup for our deck. I found them to be almost like a mirror match as they play the same annoying creatures we do and even Damnation doesn't do the trick. I may have to resort adding a BSZ into my sideboard as well. Unmake is another interesting card but I feel it might be much better for Cloud decks that include a white splash. Triple black is pretty heavy on the mana for a kill spell. But then again if you're playing white, you're probably just going to play Path to Exile.
Deglamer or Unravel the Aether isn't just for Wurmcoil. It's also decent against Affinity as basically more copies of Abrupt Decay.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
Now this list makes me proud This is where you want to be in this deck. I've seen way too many decks with a heavy creature focus. In a deck based around killing creatures, you want your ramp to be lands.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
For Nissa, look 3 posts above yours.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Honestly I don't think the new Nissa is at all viable, it's basically just Garruk that costs one more mana. Turning a land into a creature is also pretty risky since it's not like we present that many removal targets. Anyway, if you guys like her that's cool, have fun with her, but I'm not running it anytime soon
Waste Not is nice, but we really don't have enough to enable it.
Speaking of alternate planeswalkers, I think Vraska is really poorly positioned now that Jund is seeing less play, her best use was in that matchup imo.
I've been running a different style of cloud deck for the past few months, here it is:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
4 Raging Ravine
4 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Malady
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Planeswalkers
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Instants and Sorceries
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
2 Primal Command
2 Death Cloud
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
4 Slaughter Games
3 Fulminator Mage
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Went 5-2 at the Melbourne PTQ- lost to Living End and Merfolk, which are both fairly ordinary match-ups for this build. Beat Angel Pod, Merfolk, Soul Sisters, Tarmo-Twin and Tempo Twin.
I don't think it is really realistic to be able to beat either "normal" pod or Angel Pod without running red or seriously warping the deck. Chandra and Anger really do make all the difference in the match-up. Raging Ravine is also a much better manland than Treetop at killing people. The cost of course is that the manabase is a little shaky- Blood Moon is beatable, but you'd better anticipate it and plan accordingly.
This build does fine against all the tier one deck like Pod, Twin, Affinity, UWR and Jund but will struggle vs Merfolk, Living End and Griselcombo. Pretty much everything else is fine though. I will say in advance- it's even less forgiving of play errors than the standard G/B build- if you mess up your mana you will pay the price. It's great fun though! I might put some videos together at some point if I can find the time and people are interested.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
Instants and Sorceries
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
1 Smother
1 Farseek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Death Cloud
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Vraska, the Unseen
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Twilight Mire
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Treetop Village
2 Rain of Tears
1 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
2 Choke
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Kiku's Shadow
I went 1-2-1.
Round 1 vs. Zoo (1-1)
I beat her easily in game one. Game two I wiped her out again, but she kept top decking threats. I kept having to use value cards to keep her from killing me. Went to turns and she was finally able to land a Lightning Helix and end me. Round was a draw.
Round 2 vs. Mindslaver (0-2)
I hate Mindslaver. This round went FOREVER. I won't bore you with the details.
Round 3 vs. Aggro Wolves (2-0)
Killed creatures. It's what we do.
Round 4 vs. Merfolk (0-2)
Had to mulligan to 4! Held on for a long time, but no good. Sided in Choke. Never saw the freaking card.
I basically had mana issues the whole night as I was trying to splash white to be able to use Lingering Souls. It was lackluster. (Except against Zoo, it was an all star.) Post tourney some of us tech decked a little. I still want Stony Silence in my sideboard, so I plan on keeping a Plains and a Godless Shrine. Someone suggested Solemn Simulacrum as an additional mana fixer and card advantage. I'll try it. I plan on getting a third Liliana of the Veil too. Now before you poo poo Garruk, Apex Predator. He was awesome against Mindslaver. He played Wurmcoil Engine. I landed Apex, made a 3/3 deathtoucher. Traded the deathtoucher for his engine and pulsed the tokens. Apex still on board. Made more 3/3's. One from ultimate and he bounced him back to my hand. Nissa was cool too. In one game I had her and a Darksteel Citadel on board. Funny combo.
Everyone that beat me, did it by the skin of their teeth or because I misplayed.
I love the Death Cloud deck and feel like it's on the edge. I like the idea of moving away from the heavy creature builds. I'm going to be experimenting with manlands and walkers myself. I even toyed with the idea of a Mutavault or Inkmoth Nexus for early beats. Dunno.
Anywho, here is where I'm at after that tourney.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Solemn Simulacrum
Instants and Sorceries
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Death Cloud
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple of Malady
1 Twilight Mire
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Treetop Village
2 Rain of Tears
1 Unmake
2 Stony Silence
3 Choke
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Black Sun's Zenith
I agree, Garruk is super important. The way I used him was that post Death Cloud I was able to drop a land, ramp with a STEVE, use Garruk W. to untap and land a Predator. While I lose Garruk W. I gain 3/3 deathtouchers, creature removal and planeswalker removal if necessary. If I need a second ramp into a second Death Cloud, I'm probably in trouble. Plus, I'm running Nissa and would LOVE to have her on the board. Anyways, it's experimental and it's fun so far.
I don't see you beating Pod very consistently with that sideboard, I think you'll find you need more than 1 Zenith+Betrayal. Graveyard hate will help a bit here too. I also wouldn't feel confident playing against Jund with that deck, the risk of them out-valuing you seems pretty high. It might be fine though.
You shouldn't have too many problems with Twin with 4xDecay, I think if you have less generic good cards in your sideboard you'll find it easier to sideboard for the matchup.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Solemn Simulacrum
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Farseek
3 Death Cloud
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
Lands
25 Lands
The changes I already want to make are -1 Garruk Wildspeaker, -2 Solemn Simulacarum, +3 Liliana of the Veil. I have a light white splash in my deck (1 Plains, 2 Temple Garden) solely for Stony Silence and Rest in Peace out of the board. The only other card that I could see putting in would be Lingering Souls, but I'm not sure if that is worth it, or if it turns us into just a bad junk deck (as stated earlier). My highlight of the deck so far is the beautiful T5 Nissa, +1, into Garruk.
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Treetop Village
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Death Cloud
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrefy
2 Damnation
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Choke
3 Rain of Tears
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Nihil Spellbombs in the board seems like a lot of GY hate which does seem relevant with Death Clouds filling the yard but would a 4th Scooze be better?
AND 2 Surgical Extractions? I'm torn here but I think alongside the spellbombs it's just too much. These seem like they should be Grafdigger's Cage. What's the plan for Pod?
I know a lot of people really like 1 or 2 Eternal Witness, but I think it all depends on what you are getting back. I think it looses a lot of value if you're not getting back a Goyf or LotV. I'm not sure a random Eternal Witness post DC is worth it, but again I have no experience with it.
Speaking of Lili, where is she? I completely understand if she's not here due to budget reasons but she is the best Planeswalker....
2 Tec Edges MB and 3 Rain of Tears in the SB seems a tad too middle ground. I'd go a bit more or a bit less.
Is Steve really that good?
My thinking for Death Cloud is that it's not always all about ramping into a huge game ending Cloud by actively trying to outramp your opponent. Sakura-Tribe Elder is what most decks only need. Most non-Control decks are usually looking to hit their sweet spot of lands and just draw gas for the rest of the game. It's even better if your opponent misses even 1 land drop early-mid game and you can just punish them for it with a moderately sized Cloud. There's a bunch of other scenarios I've played where Death Cloud is not just a big X spell, but rather a small tactical one. I would easily go for a Death Cloud where X=1 on T3 from ramping with a Sakura-Tribe Elder if my opponent had one creature on board and two lands. It just messes with their tempo so much especially since most opponents I've played only can follow with a total of 2-3 lands for the rest of the game.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
Consider the tactical Death Cloud you mentioned where X=1. This is very similar to Smallpox but at CMC 2 rather than 4. Instead of a 3 for 3, this is really a 3 for 4. The marginal value of going from 3 to 4 cards is pretty high. The counterargument is that these decks are built to abuse the symmetry of the effect via Finks and/or a Flagstones of Trokiar/Dakmoor Salvage. At best this is now a 3 for 1, because that 1 card will always be the card to produce the effect. While a 3 for 1 is great, it's practically never that. If you pitch Lingering Souls you're only getting the 2 1/1 flyers out of it. While that may be worth a card in Limited it isn't in Modern.
The value of DC is that it scales up. X could be 3 in which case it is along the lines of a 9 for 10. The value of going from the 9th card to the 10th card is pretty minimal in that situation. It's also easier to eek out corner case value over more cards to further narrow the gap in disparity. While your targeted tactical DC isn't to be disregarded, the real value of DC is resetting a late game board state and hands back to an early/developmental one. There's a reason Smallpox has been dismissed in this build. You could run a DC list but with Smallpox instead of DC and it would play out fundamentally different.
This brings us to Sakura Tribe Elder. If the value of DC is its ability to bring the game back to an early stage, that means you're extending the duration discard and ramp is valuable. Even extending the duration still means you're running both together which I think is fragile. Overall, in a vacuum, Discard is stronger than ramp, which is why I'm giving Steve the stink eye. If the important issue with DC is fundamentally a card advantage one, then a draw card seems like it would be better in that slot b/c it holds its value over the entire duration of the game.
It seems the ideal sequence for a DC Deck is something like:
T1 = Discard
T2 = STE
T3 = Garruk
T4 = Finks x2
T5 = Death Cloud
Consider the following card:
(B/G)(B/G)
Draw 2 Cards.
I don't think much of anything is lost if our hypothetical draw spell replaces STE in that sequence which becomes something like:
T1 = Discard
T2 = Draw
T3 = Finks
T4 = Garruk
T5 = Death Cloud
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't any value to 4 mana on T3. I'm just asking, taken as a whole, is Steve really that good to not go with something a tad more consistent while still playing to the strengths of what the deck is trying to do?
EDIT: Stupid hybrid mana