The ability to punch through a tasigur and seige rhino with gurmag is actually pretty important. On the tarmagoyf note I think post deathcloud having 1 land for gurmag.is quite easier to come by then 2 lands for goyf
You always have at least 3 lands post cloud unless you have garruk, and in that case you already won? In what scenario would you have exactly one land but not two post cloud?
Sorry for not posting in awhile, I've been pretty busy. I did however get to play another fnm last night and placed 2nd. I was running a very similar list to the last one I posted so I don't see a need to post it again.
Round 1 v Mono black goblins: Weird I know. Basically it was a deck thrown together by a guy who used to play back in Lorwyn with all the black goblin/rogue/faerie stuff. Game 1 I was caught completely unaware and got flooded by mana and way to many goblins. Game 2 was close with him championing a few goblins which makes deathcloud quite bad, but I pushed through. Game 3 I got ahead on lands with a tribe elder and then cleared the board with a finks down, he couldnt recover before I did. 1-0
Round 2 v stompy: pretty easy round had more than enough removal in game 1 and then game 2 deathcloud with finks on the table. 2-0
Round 3 v BW tokens: Game 1 was rough but a top decked drown in sorrow saved me game 1. Game 2 was pretty easy after playing soul's betrayal. 3-0
Round 4 v abzan company: This was just brutal. Game 1 I keep a fairly good hand (disruption, removal, finks, damnation) and he just peeled everything off the top, after he hit the life combo I scoop. Game 2 I kept a hand hand with soul's betrayal thinking it would be good in the matchup since it would kill any finks when then came back with a -1/-1 counter which would help against anafenza. Unfortunately it does nothing to stop the combo with melira, he gains a billion life and I scoop. 3-1
I placed well but I was kind of disappointed with that last round, but I think it was my own fault was playing quite sloppy by the end of the night.
You always have at least 3 lands post cloud unless you have garruk, and in that case you already won? In what scenario would you have exactly one land but not two post cloud?
I feel like it happens all the time, happened to me last night twice. All it takes is one ramp with tribe elder and then having finks on the table when your opponent is ahead on board position. In that situation I think it is absolutely correct to cloud, you are ahead on 1 land and have a 2/1. Obviously this doesn't make sense if your opponent is still left with lands or something in their hand but it still happens all the time.
@ Chess: why do you play 28 lands? Sometimes I feel that I might go down to 23, 28 seems really high. Also why no disruption? I feel like disruption is the best reason to play black in modern
The ability to punch through a tasigur and seige rhino with gurmag is actually pretty important. On the tarmagoyf note I think post deathcloud having 1 land for gurmag.is quite easier to come by then 2 lands for goyf
I absolutely agree. Also I think that goyf wouldn't be well positioned in this deck. Goyf is a great T2 play but if you're holding back on a cloud it's a shame to lose that goyf when you cast cloud, it's not a terrible situation but it's just not very efficient. I suppose you could say that each without the other is good but I don't think that's a very strong argument
I'm playing a GPT tomorrow will post list and results as soon as I can
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. There is no way that, post cloud, you will have less than 3 lands in play, so you will always be able to cast your tarmogoyf. It's also going to be at a bare minimum a 4/5, and generally bigger.
Being able to cast goyf on T2, compared to not being able to cast gurmag until T4 at least, seems clearly worse.
Your argument about goyf dying to cloud makes no sense, its not like gurmag has any resistance to cloud either.
I can't see a situation where gurmag is better than goyf, outside gurmag being bigger, which is rare since this deck throws cards in the GY at a rapid rate and plays at a minimum walkers, if not artifacts and enchantments as well. The other possibility is if you can't spare a single extra mana on T4/5.
The payoff for playing goyf is you have a card that is castable on T2, compared to rotting in your hand which is massive.
If someone can give me a situation where gurmag is somehow superior to goyf, I'm all ears, but I suspect nothing except what I said above exists.
I don't like ramp all that much in this deck, I'd generally rather just play more lands. Works better with courser and means your mana is open to cast removal. Ramping with Elder is only actually worth it if you have don't miss any land drops, which with 23 seems optimistic. If you count your elders as lands, your deck has 28 "lands" as well. The deck is overloaded on good 3 drops, and ramp doesn't help you cast them any faster (outside utopia sprawl, which has other problems).
I don't like discard all that much either, the grindier the deck the worse discard gets. My decks are typically pretty far on the grindy side.
Neither discard nor ramp works at all well with chalice either.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. There is no way that, post cloud, you will have less than 3 lands in play, so you will always be able to cast your tarmogoyf. It's also going to be at a bare minimum a 4/5, and generally bigger.
Being able to cast goyf on T2, compared to not being able to cast gurmag until T4 at least, seems clearly worse.
Your argument about goyf dying to cloud makes no sense, its not like gurmag has any resistance to cloud either.
I can't see a situation where gurmag is better than goyf, outside gurmag being bigger, which is rare since this deck throws cards in the GY at a rapid rate and plays at a minimum walkers, if not artifacts and enchantments as well. The other possibility is if you can't spare a single extra mana on T4/5.
The payoff for playing goyf is you have a card that is castable on T2, compared to rotting in your hand which is massive.
If someone can give me a situation where gurmag is somehow superior to goyf, I'm all ears, but I suspect nothing except what I said above exists.
1. There are quite a number of times that I will Cloud, using Garruk's +1 ability, where I will wind up with 1 land out. I actually used to run a Tombstalker over Tarmogoyf with Death Cloud in old Extended, and Gurmag is a slight upgrade over Tombstalker simply because of the single B in the casting cost (and the rare occurrence where the 1 extra delve cost is relevant).
2. In the usual Cloud deck, there aren't really that many creatures for the opponent to worry about killing. I find that an early Goyf ALWAYS dies (just as an early Gurmag will always die), unless you are playing against a combo deck that doesn't care about an early Goyf, in which case the Goyf usually is a 2/3 or maybe a 3/4. A Gurmag will always be bigger than a Goyf in these situations, but it does take longer to cast. Post-Cloud is where the Gurmag is better than Goyf. I believe that the difference between a 4/5 (the standard mid-game Goyf) and a 5/5 (Gurmag) is huge, and I also believe that the difference between a 5/6 (also a potential mid-or late-game Goyf) and a 5/5 Gurmag is not all that significant. The 6th toughness point is simply not relevant after a Cloud.
So a Gurmag seems to me to be better than a Tarmogoyf in a deck in which you are actively trying to Cloud. If you are playing a mostly BG Rock-style deck with Death Cloud as an afterthought, then a Tarmogoyf makes more sense.
I don't this you understand what I'm saying. I explained that only having 1 land post cloud happens often. Also gurmag does die to cloud but he isn't coming out turn 2, goyf on the other hand very often wants to come out turn two.
Yes, I agree that I have no idea what you're saying. How exactly do you end up with one land post cloud without garruk.
Cloud cost XBBB. You can make X whatever you want, you still have the lands you spent to make BBB. If I have 7 lands, the most I can cloud for is 4, and then I have 3 lands left over.
Why am I even explaining this, this is super obvious.
Damn, you've got me there. I completely missed the point of this argument about garruk not being around. My mistake mate, this is embarrassing.
I said I would report on how that GPT went today but there isn't much to report. It was horrible. Round 1 v tron, round 2 v tron, round 3 got flooded and lost to delver. Dropped after doing a marvelous 0-3
Yes, I agree that I have no idea what you're saying. How exactly do you end up with one land post cloud without garruk.
Cloud cost XBBB. You can make X whatever you want, you still have the lands you spent to make BBB. If I have 7 lands, the most I can cloud for is 4, and then I have 3 lands left over.
Gurmag Angler, as well as Tasigur, sits well above that Abrupt Decay range, which is seeing lots of play right now. I guess that's a good reason to not play Tarmogoyf right now. We simply don't abuse Goyf as well as Abzan/Jund does.
Red definitely helps against Tron/Bloom/Shift. Unfortunately the reality is that these three matches we have to forego since they take too much sideboard dedication to combat for such little gain. As it stands, I'm only splashing white for Lingering Souls, unless I find a compelling reason to add anything else.
Also, when you cloud using a Golgari Rot Farm/Utopia Sprawl(if he played them), you definitely have less than 3 lands available (still three mana though haha). But really though, I agree with everything you said. Hope to see some of your chalice lists back in action.
I said I would report on how that GPT went today but there isn't much to report. It was horrible. Round 1 v tron, round 2 v tron, round 3 got flooded and lost to delver. Dropped after doing a marvelous 0-3
Sad face, man. Nothing you could do about that. Would you make any changes to your list, or do you feel that it's great as it is right now?
I like my build where it is now but I'm looking at cutting scavenging ooze. Also I now run 2 grafdigger's cage in the side to help deal with abzan company which my meta is filling with. I'm also thinking about splashing white for souls next Fnm, will maybe throw together a list if I have time later
Okay, now we're at least on the same page about goyf vs gurmag- post cloud they are functionally the same thing.
Goyf over Gurmag:
Pluses:
-Can be cast T2 compared to T4 (this is by far the most important)
-Pressures combo/tron much faster
-Is generally larger than gurmag by T4 [this is a deck with at least walkers, if not more (courser/chalice)]
Minuses:
-T4/5 gurmag can be cast for a single B rather than 1G, making it easier to slam two threats in a single turn
-Goyf can be smaller against GY hate like scooze, though gurmag isn't exactly a fan of scooze either
-goyf can be decayed
To me at least, everything seems pretty minor except for being able to cast in on T2 compared to it rotting in your hand. Pressuring combo/improving your mana efficiency/blocking seems a lot more important than a few quibbles about goyf sometimes not being a 5/6. This is actually a very good deck for making big goyfs, it just isn't as good at capitalizing on having one as jund/abzan.
I'm still not 100% sold on chalice in this meta and this deck could probably be refined, but its a start. I quick intro-style video on the deck, but the sound is a bit low and the quality isn't great. If people are interested I might try uploading some games, hopefully with better settings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ7d3cyaVXk
Okay, now we're at least on the same page about goyf vs gurmag- post cloud they are functionally the same thing.
Goyf over Gurmag:
Pluses:
-Can be cast T2 compared to T4 (this is by far the most important)
-Pressures combo/tron much faster
-Is generally larger than gurmag by T4 [this is a deck with at least walkers, if not more (courser/chalice)]
Minuses:
-T4/5 gurmag can be cast for a single B rather than 1G, making it easier to slam two threats in a single turn
-Goyf can be smaller against GY hate like scooze, though gurmag isn't exactly a fan of scooze either
-goyf can be decayed
To me at least, everything seems pretty minor except for being able to cast in on T2 compared to it rotting in your hand. Pressuring combo/improving your mana efficiency/blocking seems a lot more important than a few quibbles about goyf sometimes not being a 5/6. This is actually a very good deck for making big goyfs, it just isn't as good at capitalizing on having one as jund/abzan.
I'm still not 100% sold on chalice in this meta and this deck could probably be refined, but its a start. I quick intro-style video on the deck, but the sound is a bit low and the quality isn't great. If people are interested I might try uploading some games, hopefully with better settings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ7d3cyaVXk
Please do. It would be great to see how this brew would do in the current meta.
Did I mention that Gurmag is Inquisition proof? Yeah Goyf comes down faster against Tron, but Tron runs maindeck Relic. Neither Gurmag nor Goyf is going to help much against Tron due to how the deck works. As far as the combo matchup goes, Goyf and Gurmag are too slow to matter without proper disruption. Dropping an early goyf is the same as dropping a turn 3-5 angler in that you will get combo'd into oblivion before they die. The difference is that you need to babysit Goyf while Angler does its thing. This is key against other aggro/control decks where they are more prone to interact with you. I agree that we cannot capitalize on having a Goyf in play as well as other decks. In any case Tasigur still fits better in this deck because it is cheaper than angler but consistently a 4/5 without work.
For my own list, I've been using maindeck chalice with a transformational sideboard full of discard to flip flop when I need it. Against combo, discard comes in and chalice stays in; it doesn't matter what threat I have (finks/souls token/manland) as long as I have enough interaction. As such, I haven't had any problems with Storm and Ad Nauseam due to this strategy. Amulet is a different story, but I'll take my loss there; not much I can do about it. Chalice has too much of an upside against unfair decks to not use it. Affinity, Infect, Storm etc. become so much easier it's hard to imagine not playing chalice against them. Where Chalice is weak against true control decks, discard comes in to take its place. You mentioned in your video that chalice doesn't take care of the opponent's first goyf or voice; this is very true. This deck can take care of the initial wave; however it is the other copies we generally worry about as they start to tax our resources more and more. This deck is meant to be played for the long game. We shouldn't be winning by turn 5 unless we combo into Death Cloud or ultimate Garruk with souls tokens and a slew of creatures.
I like my build where it is now but I'm looking at cutting scavenging ooze. Also I now run 2 grafdigger's cage in the side to help deal with abzan company which my meta is filling with. I'm also thinking about splashing white for souls next Fnm, will maybe throw together a list if I have time later
Scavenging Ooze tends to be ridiculously good against Abzan Company. Having one in play means that they cannot combo, and it is difficult for them to remove it due to their low removal count. Plus it makes your removal better by making persist a nonissue while also growing the ooze. I'm wondering why you would consider cutting it rather than adding more. Also, please let me know how Grafdigger's Cage has been in testing. I currently run 4 Leyline of the Void against them and haven't looked back. Sure there are times when I don't have them in my opening hand, but I never feel completely helpless without them. I could potentially make them into Rest In Peace, but I like them as they are now (free opposing grave hate).
Scavenging Ooze tends to be ridiculously good against Abzan Company. Having one in play means that they cannot combo, and it is difficult for them to remove it due to their low removal count. Plus it makes your removal better by making persist a nonissue while also growing the ooze. I'm wondering why you would consider cutting it rather than adding more. Also, please let me know how Grafdigger's Cage has been in testing. I currently run 4 Leyline of the Void against them and haven't looked back. Sure there are times when I don't have them in my opening hand, but I never feel completely helpless without them. I could potentially make them into Rest In Peace, but I like them as they are now (free opposing grave hate).
I realise scooze is really good but I am currently playing 1 which is to unreliable, I have thought about increasing the number but I am struggling to find something to cut. grafdigger's cage has been performing really well after some testing, it shuts down our own finks but against abzan company is shuts down; kitchen finks, murderous redcap, collected company, chord of calling.
I put together a variation of my list with a very light red splash for kolaghan's command in the main and slaughter games side. Not much of a change, I spent some time working on an abzan version as well but I am struggling to get everything I want in. As a result my abzan death cloud feels very disorganized.
If there is any interest I'll post the lists. Will most likely play the jund version next time I get the opportunity to play modern
Scavenging Ooze tends to be ridiculously good against Abzan Company. Having one in play means that they cannot combo, and it is difficult for them to remove it due to their low removal count. Plus it makes your removal better by making persist a nonissue while also growing the ooze. I'm wondering why you would consider cutting it rather than adding more. Also, please let me know how Grafdigger's Cage has been in testing. I currently run 4 Leyline of the Void against them and haven't looked back. Sure there are times when I don't have them in my opening hand, but I never feel completely helpless without them. I could potentially make them into Rest In Peace, but I like them as they are now (free opposing grave hate).
I realise scooze is really good but I am currently playing 1 which is to unreliable, I have thought about increasing the number but I am struggling to find something to cut. grafdigger's cage has been performing really well after some testing, it shuts down our own finks but against abzan company is shuts down; kitchen finks, murderous redcap, collected company, chord of calling.
I put together a variation of my list with a very light red splash for kolaghan's command in the main and slaughter games side. Not much of a change, I spent some time working on an abzan version as well but I am struggling to get everything I want in. As a result my abzan death cloud feels very disorganized.
If there is any interest I'll post the lists. Will most likely play the jund version next time I get the opportunity to play modern
I'm interested in seeing your new lists, especially the Jund one. As far as room goes, I know you love primal command probably as much as I do, but I do feel that it is one of the weaker slots it the deck due to its high cost. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play modern for a while now, but definitely keep us updated on how you do.
Tron doesn't always have the Relic- sure if they do neither card will be very good, but if they don't goyf is a relevant clock, particularly post-board when the matchup gets grindier. Goyf-Fulminator/discard is a real clock, and gurmag just doesn't have the same level of pressure. Ditto for combo. It really isn't too slow when you back it up with disruption, that's kind of how jund/abzan work.
I used to play the chalice main-discard in the board, but slaughter games is just so much better. Try it <3 So many decks literally scoop on the spot.
I board Chalice out against most of the non-blue fair decks, Chalice gets a lot worse if they have access to decay/kolaghan's. It's almost pre-boarded combo hate that has some utility vs fair decks. When it's bad it's still okay, and when it's good it's *very* good.
Cage is much better than Leyline vs Company, but I like Leyline more overall. Especially for the living end matchup. If company gets really popular might be time to bust out the drown/anger again.
I can't agree with cutting Primal Command, you need to have some lifegain (ideally more than just finks/courser) in the deck somewhere to stabilize vs snap/bolt decks. Its very good against combo, gives you some MD GY hate and is good vs all the fair decks so long as you aren't behind on board. It also gives you outs to silly cards like keranos. Finally, it's an excellent mana sink. I wouldn't play 4 since it is bad if you're really behind, but basically every deck I play has 2 command/1 witness. It gives the deck so much for 3 slots, and it's an auto-win in a topdeck war. It's one of the few cards that never hits the SB.
Playing Chandra instead of Lingering Souls. I think I like this more, having Chandra means you can play more lands which gives so much more stability.
I'd like to have an extra ravine or two, but I'm not willing to sacrifice black sources/tec edges for it, so probably not happening. I could cut the explores, add a land and two spells, but explore is nice with courser/chandra. If I feel the deck has too much air and needs more actual spells that's probably what I'll try. Something like -3 explore +1 dismember +1 raging ravine +1 durdly lategame card. A second copy of Kolaghan's Command/Death Cloud are definitely considerations.
Tron doesn't always have the Relic- sure if they do neither card will be very good, but if they don't goyf is a relevant clock, particularly post-board when the matchup gets grindier. Goyf-Fulminator/discard is a real clock, and gurmag just doesn't have the same level of pressure. Ditto for combo. It really isn't too slow when you back it up with disruption, that's kind of how jund/abzan work.
I used to play the chalice main-discard in the board, but slaughter games is just so much better. Try it <3 So many decks literally scoop on the spot.
I board Chalice out against most of the non-blue fair decks, Chalice gets a lot worse if they have access to decay/kolaghan's. It's almost pre-boarded combo hate that has some utility vs fair decks. When it's bad it's still okay, and when it's good it's *very* good.
Cage is much better than Leyline vs Company, but I like Leyline more overall. Especially for the living end matchup. If company gets really popular might be time to bust out the drown/anger again.
I can't agree with cutting Primal Command, you need to have some lifegain (ideally more than just finks/courser) in the deck somewhere to stabilize vs snap/bolt decks. Its very good against combo, gives you some MD GY hate and is good vs all the fair decks so long as you aren't behind on board. It also gives you outs to silly cards like keranos. Finally, it's an excellent mana sink. I wouldn't play 4 since it is bad if you're really behind, but basically every deck I play has 2 command/1 witness. It gives the deck so much for 3 slots, and it's an auto-win in a topdeck war. It's one of the few cards that never hits the SB.
Playing Chandra instead of Lingering Souls. I think I like this more, having Chandra means you can play more lands which gives so much more stability.
I'd like to have an extra ravine or two, but I'm not willing to sacrifice black sources/tec edges for it, so probably not happening. I could cut the explores, add a land and two spells, but explore is nice with courser/chandra. If I feel the deck has too much air and needs more actual spells that's probably what I'll try. Something like -3 explore +1 dismember +1 raging ravine +1 durdly lategame card. A second copy of Kolaghan's Command/Death Cloud are definitely considerations.
First of all, this is a beastly list. I really do like it. I definitely would add one Death Cloud (as that durdly lategame card you were looking for). In all honesty, the 4 Fulminator Mages and Slaughter Games in the side are absolutely beautiful. Although I don't see this doing too well against combo, I could very well be wrong. I'll definitely have to sleeve up a variant of this and test it.
True, Goyf with discard/fulminator is a decent clock, but Tron is still a bad matchup for Jund/Abzan. Abzan has this plus Stony Silence to put them over the top sometimes (still a bad matchup though). I'll concede the point about combo though.
Yeah Leyline is mainly for Living End (plus chalice for 0 and it's really hard to lose). It was also used against Melira Pod to complement the maindeck removal suite back in the day. Collected Abzan is the spiritual successor to Pod so it makes sense to keep playing Leyline. Although it isn't as good as Grafdigger's Cage as you said, Leyline has more resilience due to it being an enchantment, outside of Abrupt Decay range, and occasionally free. I also used it to combat Tron's Wurmcoil Engines (they don't get the tokens while Leyline is in play), Chromatic Stars (minor, but useful), and Gifts Ungiven. The random graveyard decks popping up also make Leyline a solid inclusion in the sideboard. Due to the its nature though, 4 is definitely where you want to be, although an argument can be made for 3.
Yeah I hate cutting Primal Command too, but in the current meta it's too slow. It's basically another card to set up, like Death Cloud. I might be completely wrong in cutting it, but I cannot see anything else I would cut in order to add Scavenging Ooze in that deck. As far as command loops go, I do like the mini loop of Kolaghan's Command with Eternal Witness. Not as potent as the Primal Command loop, but I do like the infinite blockers interaction.
I'm interested in seeing your new lists, especially the Jund one. As far as room goes, I know you love primal command probably as much as I do, but I do feel that it is one of the weaker slots it the deck due to its high cost. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play modern for a while now, but definitely keep us updated on how you do.
I'm not happy with the abzan list yet but I'll go ahead and post the Jund version:
Made a few changes and did some testing, I have a few notes:
1. kolaghan's command: I haven't made up my mind yet, I don't think it's as good in this deck as it is in Jund or grixis. I'm still giving it a chance for it's potential for a 2 for 1 and utility. I love playing cards which serve more than one role in a deck like this. The command is one of the reason why I've decided to run scavening ooze again, it's just two more targets to return with command.
2. scavenging ooze: I keep flip flopping on this card and I don't know why, it's obviously good but for reasons I can never remember I end up cutting it. I have been a huge supporter of gurmag angler and I still think it has a home in deathcloud, but I feel like ooze and gurmag are often fighting for the same slot. In testing, ooze has been OK, not bad but not great either. Against the blue yard decks you want to get it down early so you can start picking apart their graveyard before they can get value out of snapcaster or play an early tasigur, unfortunately when you try to do that it usually just eats a bolt or something. So you could wait until you have some mana up to make it bigger or something but then they have already gotten a ton of value out of their yard. On the other hand scavenging ooze can steal a game by itself, so for now I'm going to run it and see how things go.
3. grafdigger's cage: Dropping this turn 1 or 2 against abzan company is GG provided you don't absolutely fumble on mana or something. The combo in company isn't all that difficult to interrupt for us, the main problem is the seemingly endless supply of finks. They play 4 and have around 7 ways to dig or fetch them + eternal witness recur them + things to reset after persist. Cage takes care of all of that. night of soul's betrayal is also pretty decent but not always backbreaking (doesn't stop the melira + finks combo). The only problem with cage is that it doesn't do much against other decks besides living end which isn't very rampant at the moment.
FYI- cage doesn't stop living end. Read the card closely, then look at living end ^.^
Creatures won't enter the battlefield from graveyard but from exile - same goes to the cascade; cascaded spell won't be cast'd from library but from exile.
I'm interested in seeing your new lists, especially the Jund one. As far as room goes, I know you love primal command probably as much as I do, but I do feel that it is one of the weaker slots it the deck due to its high cost. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play modern for a while now, but definitely keep us updated on how you do.
I'm not happy with the abzan list yet but I'll go ahead and post the Jund version:
Made a few changes and did some testing, I have a few notes:
1. kolaghan's command: I haven't made up my mind yet, I don't think it's as good in this deck as it is in Jund or grixis. I'm still giving it a chance for it's potential for a 2 for 1 and utility. I love playing cards which serve more than one role in a deck like this. The command is one of the reason why I've decided to run scavening ooze again, it's just two more targets to return with command.
2. scavenging ooze: I keep flip flopping on this card and I don't know why, it's obviously good but for reasons I can never remember I end up cutting it. I have been a huge supporter of gurmag angler and I still think it has a home in deathcloud, but I feel like ooze and gurmag are often fighting for the same slot. In testing, ooze has been OK, not bad but not great either. Against the blue yard decks you want to get it down early so you can start picking apart their graveyard before they can get value out of snapcaster or play an early tasigur, unfortunately when you try to do that it usually just eats a bolt or something. So you could wait until you have some mana up to make it bigger or something but then they have already gotten a ton of value out of their yard. On the other hand scavenging ooze can steal a game by itself, so for now I'm going to run it and see how things go.
3. grafdigger's cage: Dropping this turn 1 or 2 against abzan company is GG provided you don't absolutely fumble on mana or something. The combo in company isn't all that difficult to interrupt for us, the main problem is the seemingly endless supply of finks. They play 4 and have around 7 ways to dig or fetch them + eternal witness recur them + things to reset after persist. Cage takes care of all of that. night of soul's betrayal is also pretty decent but not always backbreaking (doesn't stop the melira + finks combo). The only problem with cage is that it doesn't do much against other decks besides living end which isn't very rampant at the moment.
The list looks really solid. I think you're right about Jund and Grixis utilizing Kolaghan's Command much better than we do. However, regrowing Fulminator Mage, Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, and Thragtusk is extremely powerful, while also serving as Affinity hate. Don't get me wrong, Gurmag Angler definitely has a place in Death Cloud, and you should run it if you can make the space. Both Angler and Ooze serve as solid beaters; one just needs setting up to cast while the other needs setting up while in play. Playing both shouldn't be too much of an issue as Angler eats your graveyard while Ooze mainly eats theirs.
FYI- cage doesn't stop living end. Read the card closely, then look at living end ^.^
Exactly. Leyline is better geared towards the Living End strategy because their cards don't hit the graveyard, while Grafdigger is for the Collected Company/Chord of Calling one because it stops library shenanigans. It's a call based on the meta; I just hate being blown out by unfair strategies, so Leyline is better for me.
I've never used haunting echoes, but rolling spoil is quite good. Free SB LD, and against the lingering souls decks blowing up a manland and some tokens is quite the blowout. It's a very playable card
Spoils seems very greedy, yeah it might devastating a couple of times but mostly I don't see it doing anything. Spoils is a fine card but I never end up playing it or when I do drawing it, seems good on paper but I wouldn't know from experience
Long time reader of this forum and its predecessors.
I took first place in the swiss element of a small tournament on Saturday with a death cloud deck. Went 3-0, then lost in the knockout stage to a graveyard recursion brew.
I'm using a GBW version, including white for Lingering Souls, Voice of Resurgence and a single Crime/Punishment. I use Stirring Wildwoods in preference to Treetop Village, which helps with the white requirement.
I particularly like the synergy of Voice with the rest of the deck as it comes back from a damnation/death cloud, gives control players headaches around playing spells in my turn and the elemental token gets huge with spirit and beast tokens. Surprised that the GBW version isn't getting more attention on here.
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Round 1 v Mono black goblins: Weird I know. Basically it was a deck thrown together by a guy who used to play back in Lorwyn with all the black goblin/rogue/faerie stuff. Game 1 I was caught completely unaware and got flooded by mana and way to many goblins. Game 2 was close with him championing a few goblins which makes deathcloud quite bad, but I pushed through. Game 3 I got ahead on lands with a tribe elder and then cleared the board with a finks down, he couldnt recover before I did. 1-0
Round 2 v stompy: pretty easy round had more than enough removal in game 1 and then game 2 deathcloud with finks on the table. 2-0
Round 3 v BW tokens: Game 1 was rough but a top decked drown in sorrow saved me game 1. Game 2 was pretty easy after playing soul's betrayal. 3-0
Round 4 v abzan company: This was just brutal. Game 1 I keep a fairly good hand (disruption, removal, finks, damnation) and he just peeled everything off the top, after he hit the life combo I scoop. Game 2 I kept a hand hand with soul's betrayal thinking it would be good in the matchup since it would kill any finks when then came back with a -1/-1 counter which would help against anafenza. Unfortunately it does nothing to stop the combo with melira, he gains a billion life and I scoop. 3-1
I placed well but I was kind of disappointed with that last round, but I think it was my own fault was playing quite sloppy by the end of the night.
I feel like it happens all the time, happened to me last night twice. All it takes is one ramp with tribe elder and then having finks on the table when your opponent is ahead on board position. In that situation I think it is absolutely correct to cloud, you are ahead on 1 land and have a 2/1. Obviously this doesn't make sense if your opponent is still left with lands or something in their hand but it still happens all the time.
@ Chess: why do you play 28 lands? Sometimes I feel that I might go down to 23, 28 seems really high. Also why no disruption? I feel like disruption is the best reason to play black in modern
I absolutely agree. Also I think that goyf wouldn't be well positioned in this deck. Goyf is a great T2 play but if you're holding back on a cloud it's a shame to lose that goyf when you cast cloud, it's not a terrible situation but it's just not very efficient. I suppose you could say that each without the other is good but I don't think that's a very strong argument
I'm playing a GPT tomorrow will post list and results as soon as I can
Being able to cast goyf on T2, compared to not being able to cast gurmag until T4 at least, seems clearly worse.
Your argument about goyf dying to cloud makes no sense, its not like gurmag has any resistance to cloud either.
I can't see a situation where gurmag is better than goyf, outside gurmag being bigger, which is rare since this deck throws cards in the GY at a rapid rate and plays at a minimum walkers, if not artifacts and enchantments as well. The other possibility is if you can't spare a single extra mana on T4/5.
The payoff for playing goyf is you have a card that is castable on T2, compared to rotting in your hand which is massive.
If someone can give me a situation where gurmag is somehow superior to goyf, I'm all ears, but I suspect nothing except what I said above exists.
I don't like ramp all that much in this deck, I'd generally rather just play more lands. Works better with courser and means your mana is open to cast removal. Ramping with Elder is only actually worth it if you have don't miss any land drops, which with 23 seems optimistic. If you count your elders as lands, your deck has 28 "lands" as well. The deck is overloaded on good 3 drops, and ramp doesn't help you cast them any faster (outside utopia sprawl, which has other problems).
I don't like discard all that much either, the grindier the deck the worse discard gets. My decks are typically pretty far on the grindy side.
Neither discard nor ramp works at all well with chalice either.
1. There are quite a number of times that I will Cloud, using Garruk's +1 ability, where I will wind up with 1 land out. I actually used to run a Tombstalker over Tarmogoyf with Death Cloud in old Extended, and Gurmag is a slight upgrade over Tombstalker simply because of the single B in the casting cost (and the rare occurrence where the 1 extra delve cost is relevant).
2. In the usual Cloud deck, there aren't really that many creatures for the opponent to worry about killing. I find that an early Goyf ALWAYS dies (just as an early Gurmag will always die), unless you are playing against a combo deck that doesn't care about an early Goyf, in which case the Goyf usually is a 2/3 or maybe a 3/4. A Gurmag will always be bigger than a Goyf in these situations, but it does take longer to cast. Post-Cloud is where the Gurmag is better than Goyf. I believe that the difference between a 4/5 (the standard mid-game Goyf) and a 5/5 (Gurmag) is huge, and I also believe that the difference between a 5/6 (also a potential mid-or late-game Goyf) and a 5/5 Gurmag is not all that significant. The 6th toughness point is simply not relevant after a Cloud.
So a Gurmag seems to me to be better than a Tarmogoyf in a deck in which you are actively trying to Cloud. If you are playing a mostly BG Rock-style deck with Death Cloud as an afterthought, then a Tarmogoyf makes more sense.
Cloud cost XBBB. You can make X whatever you want, you still have the lands you spent to make BBB. If I have 7 lands, the most I can cloud for is 4, and then I have 3 lands left over.
Why am I even explaining this, this is super obvious.
I said I would report on how that GPT went today but there isn't much to report. It was horrible. Round 1 v tron, round 2 v tron, round 3 got flooded and lost to delver. Dropped after doing a marvelous 0-3
Red definitely helps against Tron/Bloom/Shift. Unfortunately the reality is that these three matches we have to forego since they take too much sideboard dedication to combat for such little gain. As it stands, I'm only splashing white for Lingering Souls, unless I find a compelling reason to add anything else.
Also, when you cloud using a Golgari Rot Farm/Utopia Sprawl(if he played them), you definitely have less than 3 lands available (still three mana though haha). But really though, I agree with everything you said. Hope to see some of your chalice lists back in action.
Sad face, man. Nothing you could do about that. Would you make any changes to your list, or do you feel that it's great as it is right now?
Goyf over Gurmag:
Pluses:
-Can be cast T2 compared to T4 (this is by far the most important)
-Pressures combo/tron much faster
-Is generally larger than gurmag by T4 [this is a deck with at least walkers, if not more (courser/chalice)]
Minuses:
-T4/5 gurmag can be cast for a single B rather than 1G, making it easier to slam two threats in a single turn
-Goyf can be smaller against GY hate like scooze, though gurmag isn't exactly a fan of scooze either
-goyf can be decayed
To me at least, everything seems pretty minor except for being able to cast in on T2 compared to it rotting in your hand. Pressuring combo/improving your mana efficiency/blocking seems a lot more important than a few quibbles about goyf sometimes not being a 5/6. This is actually a very good deck for making big goyfs, it just isn't as good at capitalizing on having one as jund/abzan.
Anyway, this is what I've come up with so far:
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Temple of Malice
4 Marsh Flats
Creatures
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
3 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
2 Primal Command
1 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Slaughter Games
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Damnation
2 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Leyline of the Void
I'm still not 100% sold on chalice in this meta and this deck could probably be refined, but its a start. I quick intro-style video on the deck, but the sound is a bit low and the quality isn't great. If people are interested I might try uploading some games, hopefully with better settings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ7d3cyaVXk
Please do. It would be great to see how this brew would do in the current meta.
Did I mention that Gurmag is Inquisition proof? Yeah Goyf comes down faster against Tron, but Tron runs maindeck Relic. Neither Gurmag nor Goyf is going to help much against Tron due to how the deck works. As far as the combo matchup goes, Goyf and Gurmag are too slow to matter without proper disruption. Dropping an early goyf is the same as dropping a turn 3-5 angler in that you will get combo'd into oblivion before they die. The difference is that you need to babysit Goyf while Angler does its thing. This is key against other aggro/control decks where they are more prone to interact with you. I agree that we cannot capitalize on having a Goyf in play as well as other decks. In any case Tasigur still fits better in this deck because it is cheaper than angler but consistently a 4/5 without work.
For my own list, I've been using maindeck chalice with a transformational sideboard full of discard to flip flop when I need it. Against combo, discard comes in and chalice stays in; it doesn't matter what threat I have (finks/souls token/manland) as long as I have enough interaction. As such, I haven't had any problems with Storm and Ad Nauseam due to this strategy. Amulet is a different story, but I'll take my loss there; not much I can do about it. Chalice has too much of an upside against unfair decks to not use it. Affinity, Infect, Storm etc. become so much easier it's hard to imagine not playing chalice against them. Where Chalice is weak against true control decks, discard comes in to take its place. You mentioned in your video that chalice doesn't take care of the opponent's first goyf or voice; this is very true. This deck can take care of the initial wave; however it is the other copies we generally worry about as they start to tax our resources more and more. This deck is meant to be played for the long game. We shouldn't be winning by turn 5 unless we combo into Death Cloud or ultimate Garruk with souls tokens and a slew of creatures.
Scavenging Ooze tends to be ridiculously good against Abzan Company. Having one in play means that they cannot combo, and it is difficult for them to remove it due to their low removal count. Plus it makes your removal better by making persist a nonissue while also growing the ooze. I'm wondering why you would consider cutting it rather than adding more. Also, please let me know how Grafdigger's Cage has been in testing. I currently run 4 Leyline of the Void against them and haven't looked back. Sure there are times when I don't have them in my opening hand, but I never feel completely helpless without them. I could potentially make them into Rest In Peace, but I like them as they are now (free opposing grave hate).
I realise scooze is really good but I am currently playing 1 which is to unreliable, I have thought about increasing the number but I am struggling to find something to cut. grafdigger's cage has been performing really well after some testing, it shuts down our own finks but against abzan company is shuts down; kitchen finks, murderous redcap, collected company, chord of calling.
I put together a variation of my list with a very light red splash for kolaghan's command in the main and slaughter games side. Not much of a change, I spent some time working on an abzan version as well but I am struggling to get everything I want in. As a result my abzan death cloud feels very disorganized.
If there is any interest I'll post the lists. Will most likely play the jund version next time I get the opportunity to play modern
I'm interested in seeing your new lists, especially the Jund one. As far as room goes, I know you love primal command probably as much as I do, but I do feel that it is one of the weaker slots it the deck due to its high cost. Unfortunately I haven't been able to play modern for a while now, but definitely keep us updated on how you do.
I used to play the chalice main-discard in the board, but slaughter games is just so much better. Try it <3 So many decks literally scoop on the spot.
I board Chalice out against most of the non-blue fair decks, Chalice gets a lot worse if they have access to decay/kolaghan's. It's almost pre-boarded combo hate that has some utility vs fair decks. When it's bad it's still okay, and when it's good it's *very* good.
Cage is much better than Leyline vs Company, but I like Leyline more overall. Especially for the living end matchup. If company gets really popular might be time to bust out the drown/anger again.
I can't agree with cutting Primal Command, you need to have some lifegain (ideally more than just finks/courser) in the deck somewhere to stabilize vs snap/bolt decks. Its very good against combo, gives you some MD GY hate and is good vs all the fair decks so long as you aren't behind on board. It also gives you outs to silly cards like keranos. Finally, it's an excellent mana sink. I wouldn't play 4 since it is bad if you're really behind, but basically every deck I play has 2 command/1 witness. It gives the deck so much for 3 slots, and it's an auto-win in a topdeck war. It's one of the few cards that never hits the SB.
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of Malice
4 Savage Lands
1 Raging Ravine
Creatures
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Explore
2 Primal Command
1 Death Cloud
2 Damnation
1 Kolaghan's Command
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Slaughter Games
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Damnation
2 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Leyline of the Void
Playing Chandra instead of Lingering Souls. I think I like this more, having Chandra means you can play more lands which gives so much more stability.
I'd like to have an extra ravine or two, but I'm not willing to sacrifice black sources/tec edges for it, so probably not happening. I could cut the explores, add a land and two spells, but explore is nice with courser/chandra. If I feel the deck has too much air and needs more actual spells that's probably what I'll try. Something like -3 explore +1 dismember +1 raging ravine +1 durdly lategame card. A second copy of Kolaghan's Command/Death Cloud are definitely considerations.
First of all, this is a beastly list. I really do like it. I definitely would add one Death Cloud (as that durdly lategame card you were looking for). In all honesty, the 4 Fulminator Mages and Slaughter Games in the side are absolutely beautiful. Although I don't see this doing too well against combo, I could very well be wrong. I'll definitely have to sleeve up a variant of this and test it.
True, Goyf with discard/fulminator is a decent clock, but Tron is still a bad matchup for Jund/Abzan. Abzan has this plus Stony Silence to put them over the top sometimes (still a bad matchup though). I'll concede the point about combo though.
Yeah Leyline is mainly for Living End (plus chalice for 0 and it's really hard to lose). It was also used against Melira Pod to complement the maindeck removal suite back in the day. Collected Abzan is the spiritual successor to Pod so it makes sense to keep playing Leyline. Although it isn't as good as Grafdigger's Cage as you said, Leyline has more resilience due to it being an enchantment, outside of Abrupt Decay range, and occasionally free. I also used it to combat Tron's Wurmcoil Engines (they don't get the tokens while Leyline is in play), Chromatic Stars (minor, but useful), and Gifts Ungiven. The random graveyard decks popping up also make Leyline a solid inclusion in the sideboard. Due to the its nature though, 4 is definitely where you want to be, although an argument can be made for 3.
Yeah I hate cutting Primal Command too, but in the current meta it's too slow. It's basically another card to set up, like Death Cloud. I might be completely wrong in cutting it, but I cannot see anything else I would cut in order to add Scavenging Ooze in that deck. As far as command loops go, I do like the mini loop of Kolaghan's Command with Eternal Witness. Not as potent as the Primal Command loop, but I do like the infinite blockers interaction.
I'm not happy with the abzan list yet but I'll go ahead and post the Jund version:
4 kithcen finks
2 courser of kruphix
2 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
3 abrupt decay
3 death cloud
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
1 kolaghan's command
1 damnation
1 maelstrom pulse
1 victim of night
1 slaughter pact
1 primal command
2 liliana of the veil
1 blood crypt
1 bloodstained mire
2 forest
1 mountain
2 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
3 swamp
1 tectonic edge
4 treetop village
2 twilight mire
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 fulminator mage
2 slaughter games
2 night of soul's betrayal
1 choke
2 thrun, the last troll
2 grafdigger's cage
1 golgari charm
2 obstinate baloth
Made a few changes and did some testing, I have a few notes:
1. kolaghan's command: I haven't made up my mind yet, I don't think it's as good in this deck as it is in Jund or grixis. I'm still giving it a chance for it's potential for a 2 for 1 and utility. I love playing cards which serve more than one role in a deck like this. The command is one of the reason why I've decided to run scavening ooze again, it's just two more targets to return with command.
2. scavenging ooze: I keep flip flopping on this card and I don't know why, it's obviously good but for reasons I can never remember I end up cutting it. I have been a huge supporter of gurmag angler and I still think it has a home in deathcloud, but I feel like ooze and gurmag are often fighting for the same slot. In testing, ooze has been OK, not bad but not great either. Against the blue yard decks you want to get it down early so you can start picking apart their graveyard before they can get value out of snapcaster or play an early tasigur, unfortunately when you try to do that it usually just eats a bolt or something. So you could wait until you have some mana up to make it bigger or something but then they have already gotten a ton of value out of their yard. On the other hand scavenging ooze can steal a game by itself, so for now I'm going to run it and see how things go.
3. grafdigger's cage: Dropping this turn 1 or 2 against abzan company is GG provided you don't absolutely fumble on mana or something. The combo in company isn't all that difficult to interrupt for us, the main problem is the seemingly endless supply of finks. They play 4 and have around 7 ways to dig or fetch them + eternal witness recur them + things to reset after persist. Cage takes care of all of that. night of soul's betrayal is also pretty decent but not always backbreaking (doesn't stop the melira + finks combo). The only problem with cage is that it doesn't do much against other decks besides living end which isn't very rampant at the moment.
Creatures won't enter the battlefield from graveyard but from exile - same goes to the cascade; cascaded spell won't be cast'd from library but from exile.
Modern
WUBRG
The list looks really solid. I think you're right about Jund and Grixis utilizing Kolaghan's Command much better than we do. However, regrowing Fulminator Mage, Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, and Thragtusk is extremely powerful, while also serving as Affinity hate. Don't get me wrong, Gurmag Angler definitely has a place in Death Cloud, and you should run it if you can make the space. Both Angler and Ooze serve as solid beaters; one just needs setting up to cast while the other needs setting up while in play. Playing both shouldn't be too much of an issue as Angler eats your graveyard while Ooze mainly eats theirs.
Exactly. Leyline is better geared towards the Living End strategy because their cards don't hit the graveyard, while Grafdigger is for the Collected Company/Chord of Calling one because it stops library shenanigans. It's a call based on the meta; I just hate being blown out by unfair strategies, so Leyline is better for me.
I took first place in the swiss element of a small tournament on Saturday with a death cloud deck. Went 3-0, then lost in the knockout stage to a graveyard recursion brew.
I'm using a GBW version, including white for Lingering Souls, Voice of Resurgence and a single Crime/Punishment. I use Stirring Wildwoods in preference to Treetop Village, which helps with the white requirement.
I particularly like the synergy of Voice with the rest of the deck as it comes back from a damnation/death cloud, gives control players headaches around playing spells in my turn and the elemental token gets huge with spirit and beast tokens. Surprised that the GBW version isn't getting more attention on here.