Ya this deck just got a massive upgrade. It's now a real thing. We can shift some stuff around to be more controlling. Ridiculous that we now have access to jace the wallet sculptor lol
First of all i've just won another tournament with my list (you can see it some post ago)
The Match up were 4c Zoo w 2-0, Burn L 2-1, UW control w 2-0, Lanter pt list w 2-0. Top 4 Infect w 2-1 and split in the final round.
I think the easiest thing we can make is just change the 4 merfolks with Jace, but in my list i've found Azcanta to be pretty weak cause i do not want any of my miracles card in hand... so i'm personally going to drop the 2 Azcantas for 1 more Detention Sphere and i've got 1 free slot but i'm still not sure which card can deserve it... maybe some card that let us put a permanent into the top of our oppont library to fate seal it with jace.
Azors gate. Instant draw/filter.
I 100% agree on detention sphere. No idea why that was not in deck to start.
First of all i've just won another tournament with my list (you can see it some post ago)
The Match up were 4c Zoo w 2-0, Burn L 2-1, UW control w 2-0, Lanter pt list w 2-0. Top 4 Infect w 2-1 and split in the final round.
I think the easiest thing we can make is just change the 4 merfolks with Jace, but in my list i've found Azcanta to be pretty weak cause i do not want any of my miracles card in hand... so i'm personally going to drop the 2 Azcantas for 1 more Detention Sphere and i've got 1 free slot but i'm still not sure which card can deserve it... maybe some card that let us put a permanent into the top of our oppont library to fate seal it with jace.
Azors gate. Instant draw/filter.
I 100% agree on detention sphere. No idea why that was not in deck to start.
I do not think the deck needs more draw effect but just more answers to critical permanents like planeswalkers/artifacts or Enchantments. maybe Cast Out could be a good idea cause u can play it with flash and then untap and play your spells
It's a thought.
A resolved Blood Moon is practically GG against this deck and i was recently thinking...holy crap, i have no way of beating Ensnaring bridge too! That's definitely something that needed to be adjusted. Azor's gate has actually been pretty sweet. Plus if you ever get to flip it, you can make a couple angels off it haha!
Cast Out is nice because it has the upside of being a potential instance speed miracle draw for 1 mana (like opt) but with a bigger alternate possible upside for Opt.
I'm on board with trying it out.
For a similar reason I suspect Nimble Obstructionist could use some light testing; though I'm fairly sure Clique is just generally better in almost all cases.
What about Mana Tithe? It fits nicely with leaving mana open for Opt and Jace can brainstorm away the useless copies in the late game? (I mean, it is the best impression of Daze available in Modern...)
I dont think Mana Tithe is where we want to be if possible; best case / worst case / average case applies here.
Best case: we tag something critical in game1
Average case: we tag something middling because we have the chance and/or brainstorm it away
Worst case: it sits in our hand dead doing nothing
Compare to opt:
Best case: miracle on opponents turn
Average case: cantrip
Worst Case: cantrip
Plus opt pitches to Disrupting Shoal if we go down that road.
I think you misunderstood. There is no way the deck doesn't play four Opt, but Mana Tithe should get us through Turns 1 to 3. The late game should be won anyway with Jace and Entreat the Angels, but the sole reason that not everyone has lost their minds already is the argument: Well, Modern kills regularly Turn 3, the Jace player is dead by then. Mana Tithe solves exactly this problem.
Nothing wrong with testing it; but I think it's going to end up a dead card much to often. I am of the mind that early game I want to be leaning on Path and Mana Leak rather than Mana Tithe, but I am open to being wrong on this.
Daze tends to find itself in tempo oriented lists in legacy though, not Miracles lists
honestly dont know if its going to be decent as i havent tested it but as soon as jace was unbanned i started looking at legacy lists to try to port it over. anyway this is what i came up with. thoughts are appreciated. may need to drop 1 entreat and 1 other for detention sphere.
Ok, so I have a question as I am moving to a UW deck of sorts and I am considering the Miracles game plan. Seems like the deck is using a lot of top of the deck manipulation spells and effects, could we start to look into running Counterbalance somewhere in the 75?
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I look over these decklists and I like most of what I see. The glaring omission, in my mind, is the lack of shuffle effects outside of fetch lands. We ran Squadron Hawk in Caw-Blade for that very reason. We're obviously talking about a different deck and a different format, but finding a way to use a card like Hawk to shuffle or Life from the Loam to mill unwanted cards is going to be the difference between upgrading an existing deck and creating a whole new monster.
I'm not sure what that card is, but you better believe I'm hunting for it. And I know, for a fact, that I'm not the only one. So if any of you have any ideas, I'd 'ove to hear them.
Ok, so I have a question as I am moving to a UW deck of sorts and I am considering the Miracles game plan. Seems like the deck is using a lot of top of the deck manipulation spells and effects, could we start to look into running Counterbalance somewhere in the 75?
Between Riverwise augur printing and Jace unban I played miracles with counterbalance (I haven't played it since because I can't afford Jace right now, but next month I'll be coming into some $$ so I might pick it up again). Anyhow, this was my experience: we have very few efficient ways to manipulate the top of the library as a response to an opponent's spel, so counterbalance is really a gamble. Telling time was great in this regard, and I had a Teferi, mage of Zhalfir+riverwise augur "combo" to manipulte the top at instant speed. Besides that you are left to the mercy of scry effects and hope that whatever you see on top matches the opponent's cmc. Jace, not being able to respond to an opponent's spell, sadly does not really make counterbalance more playable.
I look over these decklists and I like most of what I see. The glaring omission, in my mind, is the lack of shuffle effects outside of fetch lands. We ran Squadron Hawk in Caw-Blade for that very reason. We're obviously talking about a different deck and a different format, but finding a way to use a card like Hawk to shuffle or Life from the Loam to mill unwanted cards is going to be the difference between upgrading an existing deck and creating a whole new monster.
I'm not sure what that card is, but you better believe I'm hunting for it. And I know, for a fact, that I'm not the only one. So if any of you have any ideas, I'd 'ove to hear them.
If all you want is a shuffle effect than Renowned Weaponsmith can do it, I don't see many other uses for it though besides maybe helping cast a Batterskull.
There is also Thaumatic Compass which can get lands and shuffle but requires holding up 3-mana which is possible with counters so it might not be too bad.
Jeff Hoogland tried a UW Miracles version after Jace's unban. What do you guys think about it? The list looked really fun to me, not sure if it will be competitive enough...
I have only played on mtgo yet, and only in friendly matchs (no leagues yet). I had 2 lists that i wanted to test (one with Ancestral Vision and the other with Telling Time). Of those two, I prefered the one with AV, because i was facing more jund (people were testing BBE) and other midrange decks. And then i started facing Tron... And i couldn't do anything, even with 4 Field of Ruin
So i created a 3rd version, without AV and TT, but with 4 Spreading Seas. And I liked that version!
I have only played on mtgo yet, and only in friendly matchs (no leagues yet). I had 2 lists that i wanted to test (one with Ancestral Vision and the other with Telling Time). Of those two, I prefered the one with AV, because i was facing more jund (people were testing BBE) and other midrange decks. And then i started facing Tron... And i couldn't do anything, even with 4 Field of Ruin
So i created a 3rd version, without AV and TT, but with 4 Spreading Seas. And I liked that version!
Are you not running Extractions in your SB? It's exactly for Tron (while you run the FoR).
I had 2, but SE is not a great answer to tron decks... Yes, sometimes you can get them, but even then they can still get lands to cast their threats - we are not that fast in killing them, we don't have a good clock.
G1 is terrible vs Gx Tron. Then you have to have both (FoR + SE) on turn 3 or else you may have to deal with a Karn. On the draw it can simply be too slow... That's why i added spreading seas. It can keep them off tron in both G1 and on the draw.
I am unsure whether this is the usual control shell sans Seas but with Miracles, or exactly what. I am sure many have already tried this idea, but I am trying to find a home for our new overlord JTMS. The 4-of Snapcasters is to make sure I can draw as much as possible on the opponent's turn with Opt and Remand.
On which matchups would we actually need a (multiple?) sweeper that would make pursuing Miracles worthwhile? Or is this already a foregone conclusion?
In my opinion, the biggest draw towards miracles has always been counterbalance. The way I always viewed miracles was as a counterbalance lock deck first and foremost; then, given that you want to manipulate the top of your library anyway, you get the miracles aspect "for free". Under this premise, you need instant speed ways to manipulate the top card, and the only reliable I found of doing this are three:
telling time (actually pretty decent, but having only 4x telling times makes this somewhat unreliable... yes, snaps could be counted as TT 5-8, but realistically you want snaps for other purposes.)
Without the counterbalance combo, I'm skeptical miracles will be better than plain old control. The closes "miracles" deck I found that is close to competitive is the UW taking turns deck that Nassif sometimes streams. It uses temporal mastery main, living end as the mainboard sweeper, andterminus as a sb sweeper option. I added entreat the angels as an extra way to finish the game if for some reaosn the infinite turns plan bombs out (or even as a way to make blockers if I need to buy time).
I see where you're coming from. But I have tried Telling Time and though it's flavorful I am not impressed. I really have tried to like it, really. What we need is more/efficient ways of top deck manipulation.
Also, imho the converted mana cost of Modern is so varied that trying to use Counterbalance, even if we had superb top deck manipulation, wouldn't guarantee a complete lockdown.
I also run 4 copies of JtMS, he's the only brainstorm effect we have, and 6 fetchs + 4 FoR to shuffle the deck. I also have a lower land count (23) due to the amount of draw (8 Cantrips + 4 Spreading Seas + snaps + Cryptics). Regarding Miracles, I cut 1 Entreat - It's awful when you have one in your hand, it's even worse if you draw both. Usually my opponents concede when we have jace on an empty board and they're hand is empty or it can't deal with him, so no point in having more clunky cards in my deck like Entreat. I don't run any Search for Azcanta, because i have mixed feelings about it. Maybe i'll test it in this deck sometime.
Some weird (aka different) choices, imo. No Serum Visions and 2 timely reinforcements in mainboard + sphinx's revelation. Well, at least the burn matchup may be a good one
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Azors gate. Instant draw/filter.
I 100% agree on detention sphere. No idea why that was not in deck to start.
It's a thought.
A resolved Blood Moon is practically GG against this deck and i was recently thinking...holy crap, i have no way of beating Ensnaring bridge too! That's definitely something that needed to be adjusted. Azor's gate has actually been pretty sweet. Plus if you ever get to flip it, you can make a couple angels off it haha!
I'm on board with trying it out.
For a similar reason I suspect Nimble Obstructionist could use some light testing; though I'm fairly sure Clique is just generally better in almost all cases.
Best case: we tag something critical in game1
Average case: we tag something middling because we have the chance and/or brainstorm it away
Worst case: it sits in our hand dead doing nothing
Compare to opt:
Best case: miracle on opponents turn
Average case: cantrip
Worst Case: cantrip
Plus opt pitches to Disrupting Shoal if we go down that road.
Daze tends to find itself in tempo oriented lists in legacy though, not Miracles lists
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 celestial colonnade
2 hallowed fountain
5 island
3 plains
2 glacial fortress
creatures
2 monastery mentor
3 snapcaster mage
1 vendilion clique
planeswalkers
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 terminus
4 serum visions
4 opt
4 path to exile
3 cryptic command
2 entreat the angels
2 Search for Azcanta
2 remand
1 negate
1 mana leak
1 glimmer of genius
2 timely reinforcements
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
4 spreading seas
1 negate
2 dispel
2 Ceremonious Rejection
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
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I'm not sure what that card is, but you better believe I'm hunting for it. And I know, for a fact, that I'm not the only one. So if any of you have any ideas, I'd 'ove to hear them.
Between Riverwise augur printing and Jace unban I played miracles with counterbalance (I haven't played it since because I can't afford Jace right now, but next month I'll be coming into some $$ so I might pick it up again). Anyhow, this was my experience: we have very few efficient ways to manipulate the top of the library as a response to an opponent's spel, so counterbalance is really a gamble. Telling time was great in this regard, and I had a Teferi, mage of Zhalfir+riverwise augur "combo" to manipulte the top at instant speed. Besides that you are left to the mercy of scry effects and hope that whatever you see on top matches the opponent's cmc. Jace, not being able to respond to an opponent's spell, sadly does not really make counterbalance more playable.
If all you want is a shuffle effect than Renowned Weaponsmith can do it, I don't see many other uses for it though besides maybe helping cast a Batterskull.
There is also Thaumatic Compass which can get lands and shuffle but requires holding up 3-mana which is possible with counters so it might not be too bad.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesSo i created a 3rd version, without AV and TT, but with 4 Spreading Seas. And I liked that version!
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesAre you not running Extractions in your SB? It's exactly for Tron (while you run the FoR).
G1 is terrible vs Gx Tron. Then you have to have both (FoR + SE) on turn 3 or else you may have to deal with a Karn. On the draw it can simply be too slow... That's why i added spreading seas. It can keep them off tron in both G1 and on the draw.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR Miracles4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Opt
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Negate
2 Cryptic Command
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Celestial Purge
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Dispel
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Detention Sphere
On which matchups would we actually need a (multiple?) sweeper that would make pursuing Miracles worthwhile? Or is this already a foregone conclusion?
Without the counterbalance combo, I'm skeptical miracles will be better than plain old control. The closes "miracles" deck I found that is close to competitive is the UW taking turns deck that Nassif sometimes streams. It uses temporal mastery main, living end as the mainboard sweeper, andterminus as a sb sweeper option. I added entreat the angels as an extra way to finish the game if for some reaosn the infinite turns plan bombs out (or even as a way to make blockers if I need to buy time).
Also, imho the converted mana cost of Modern is so varied that trying to use Counterbalance, even if we had superb top deck manipulation, wouldn't guarantee a complete lockdown.
UR TwinLegacy
UWR Miracleshttps://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/962385#paper
1 entreat, 2 terminus (one in sb)
UR TwinLegacy
UWR Miracleshttps://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/985655#paper
Some weird (aka different) choices, imo. No Serum Visions and 2 timely reinforcements in mainboard + sphinx's revelation. Well, at least the burn matchup may be a good one
UR TwinLegacy
UWR Miracles