Didn´t even know this place was a thing. This is awesome. I´ve been playing a sweet R/W Prison deck for a while, with the cool card being Pyrohemia. The deck was from pre eldrazi days, so the list needs a few updates, but still been kicking ass.
The lists on here are sooooooooooooooo massively different. Barely Related. I´m amazed at the land destruction tactics I would never have considered. Magus of the Tabernacle was a consideration but was cut for several reasons. Because I love y'all, I'll post my list.
The deck dumps it´s hand fairly quickly, so Bridge is very good. Simian Spirit Guide makes for the best plays. It´s done extremely well online. It has troubles with Blue Tron and Lantern Control, and although it currently has a winning match record vs drazi, that record is 1-0.
I went 2-0-1 at the Untap FNM on untap.in that I ran last friday. Tie was vs Bant Coco. The tempo and beats on there are pretty rough, and they run removal for the enchantments. It hit time just as we finished g2, which I won. Huzzah for him getting mana screwed on 2 until I got the t4 Assemble the Legion. No one beats Assemble the Legion. No one. (except Quasali Pridmage. And a few sideboard cards)
AAAAAAND i just saw Nahiri for the first time. Been avoiding spoilers, but if it could go in my deck, I was gonna view it. She seems pretty good. Definitely something I´d just be testing in this deck, though it probably should just slot in over Gideon. Her minus is very versatile, her plus is ok, and her ult won´t be ding much though. I really do love Gideon, but he´s not amazing in this deck. :(. Also just realized stuff about Outpost Siege after reading the primer (which badly needs updated). Looks nuts. +2 probably.
Worship main could be a lock card with those dudes.
The lists here are different from each other, but they all have the same broad elements- a strong prison element and beatdown being not the main aim. They are designed to go long game, and many have dedicated cards to attack resources of the opponent. That is what keeps them in the same park.
Naturally synergies vary immensely, and design trees are often very different superficially.
What separates these decks from Pillow Fort (White-x enchantments), the other thread I run, is that in the Pillow fort you cast cards that are enchantments which stop the opponent damaging you or interacting with your resources. In RW lockdown decks that is an element but cards often interact with theirs- whether it be a blood moon or land destruction or simple old sweepers.
I hope you find time to read the primer and thanks for your list. I might include it as a forum list as it is a pretty unique way to go.
I must say I am not too fussed on 4 rugged prairie, although I can see the need for mana filtering, so it is understandable if the and I would say that the only lockdown decks to have had SCG success all use 4 Temples, that filtering is so important.
I need the filtering from Rugged Prairies. I have some intense mana costs. It also works well with Simian Spirit Guide.
Pyrohemia is just cute against a lot of decks, but brutal to others. Frequently it is just a nice option. I just like the card and have fun playing it.
I had though I was special with that 1 Temple until I read the primer. Gonna add the rest.
You call this deck R/W Pillowfort deck. Most of that is just incidental. Runed Halo on Pyrohemia is almost an instant win. Ghostly Prison is just good and in pretty much every list. Bridge works with the fairly low CMC and Simian Spirit Guide, which also works with Chalice (which is a deck in the primer).
I definitely need the Morningtide filter lands. I have some pretty awful mana costs. Worship wouldn´t really be a lock at all, considering the prevalence of Dismember and PtE. The Beatdown you mentioned was incidental. I wanted powerful cards that survived Anger and Pyrohemia. Soltari Priest is far more powerful than I had thought. It´s 2/1 Unblockable with protection from bolt and my boardwipes, and has a faster clock than you think. You have to wait to draw that assemble. Even if you assemble on 5, Soltari Priest on 2 is almost faster.
Everyone else who commented on my deck, thanks for the suggestions. Boros Reckoner is worth considering, but since each 1 damage is separate, I can´t just deal 5 to me and 10 to them. It could go in the board. The sideboard has needed reworking for a while.
Cards that caught my eye while looking over the decklists on the Primer for my list: Stony Silence. Dunno why this isn´t in the board. Story Circle. Blanks a number of decks, could be main or side. Maybe a 1 in main. Dampening Matrix. Smacks a wider variety of decks than Stony Silence. I´m surprised it's so much cheaper than Stony Silence. It hits a lot of trouble cards, like Quasali Pridemage, Giest of Saint Traft, and more. However, it can´t be fetched. Open the Vaults. Probably a little too greedy, but it is an anti enchantment wipe. Could maybe sorta be sideboard. Pulse of the Fields. Now THIS card has me excited. It works extremely well with Pyrohemia, and against aggro in general. My only worry is that it isn´t a may clause, so it may (although this is unlikely) interact negatively with Bridge. I´m going to be doing some testing with this.
I'm gonna test those. Not sure about Stony vs Dampening Matrix. One can be fetched, the other is pretty much just better. Maybe 1 Stony and the rest as Matrix?
Stony is definitely better, Matrix won't hit mana, darksteels, opals etc. Geist of St has no activated abilities, its a triggered ability and I wish Matrix would hurt them but it won't.
Just to be clear I was not calling your deck pillow-fort, I own the pillow fort primer and was comparing to that.....
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Since I´m curious, what adjustments were mad when eldrazi took over the format?
People switched to Landkill versions over blood moon/bridge versions, not much else. RW lockdown decks like a greedy aggro deck that has special lands that don't help with Ghostly Prison. Eldrazi is not as hard as certain combo or control matches...........but outside of big events in paper mtg there are less Eldrazi decks than you think.....
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Two landers are way more keepable if one of them is a Temple. On the draw I take them, on the play, not as much. If they have a boom//bust combo in then yes, if they have suppression field or chalice then yes. If they have 3/4cc spells in I say no. It could be your curve is just not right and thus 2 landers don't work. Make sure you have 10 2cc things you can do in the 60, minimum, ideally 12.
In my list I run 4 SF, 2 Chalice, 2 L Helix plus the Boom Bust combo, and even with 4 Temples I mull a fair bit.
I think Outpost siege is a board card in the full landkill versions, we already have 4 Magus and probably 3 or 2 Dark dwellers, and the card although awesome against control lists is often too late in landkill, in contrast with the Bridge lists that have more defensive action in the 2-3 slot and often SSG too. In Skred again the acceleration and plethora of 1cc removal spells really make siege work at the top end. In our version a t3 landkill t4 siege is often not enough to survive.
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Does anyone have experience with it? It wasn't a plan of mine, just an experiment that went better than expected. Of course it makes me think that I should look into lingering souls instead.
I've played with Tiemly a lot, although not in this deck. It's very powerful all the time. I actually could see adding 2 to my main.
It's funny how different the red/white approaches can be. You might like the card and I'm pretty sure that it fits what I'm trying to do, but I don't think the lockdown versions would care for it.
On the other hand it took me a while before I understood the skin invasion suggestion. It would make more sense in a deck that relies on taxation.
On the other hand it took me a while before I understood the skin invasion suggestion. It would make more sense in a deck that relies on taxation.
Sadly Skin Invasion + Ghostly Prison is a Nonbo. The creature has to attack if able, so if you just don't want to pay for Prison you don't attack with the enchanted creature. Skin Invasion doesn't force you to pay for Ghostly Prison even if you could.
Game 1: Never close. Got a boom//bust with my Flagstones, then Molten Rain, Stone Rain with a turn 5 Dark-Dwellers. He never got enough mana once the Magus stuck.
Game 2: Stuck a Magus along with 2 stone rains early on. Nahiri stuck to the board and ultimate for the win.
Against the much better Jeskai burn deck.
Game 1: Mana tithe to stop boros charm on the draw. Never saw a third land.
Game 2: The punishment this deck gives 3 color decks is insane. He got stuck on 1 land after 3 stone rains.
Game 3: Leyline makes way for an easy victory.
I am really liking this deck. Mana Tithe is awesome. I was unsure about lightning helix but if burn is in your meta it is amazing. I am not sure what I would change if anything right now.
I love the list cespinar. Do you like the 2/2 split between Nahiri and Ajani? Do you think we can get away with not having any Anger of the Gods in the main?
Also, isn't Rest in Peace a nombo with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Emrakul?
I think it is meta dependent on anger of the gods. It hasn't hurt me yet in playtesting but I will try again on Thursday. I think that Mana Tithe would become sideboard for Anger in a small creature aggro meta. Then you bring in Mana Tithe against control/midrange. I will try to do another report on Thursday and Monday again. Mana Tithe for early tempo and then again for the answer to their topdeck when they finally get the mana is back breaking psychologically.
The 2-2 split on planeswalkers is working really well.
You are right about Rest in Peace. I am the only player at my store that plays a real graveyard deck right now though (Living End). Perhaps Grafdigger's Cage is the better sideboard tech to take out GDD for to keep the emrakul win con.
Also thinking of taking out 2 Ghost Quarter for the new buy back land. Not sure how needed it is right now. Also there is one burn player in my meta so if he doesn't play I would probably swap to Kataki from Firewalker. The sideboard is probably the one thing that should be different for each player unless you are going to a big event.
I am currently running two copies of crumble to dust. I got rid of Ghost Quarter and Crucible of Worlds. I love using land destruction as part of the strategy, but there's always tension present when I try to make it THE strategy. Waste-Lock doesn't work as well as it should when we're stuck using Ghost Quarter. Crucible is a great card but there's been so many times that I would've won if only Crucible hadn't been sitting there being useless. Crumble to Dust isn't fast but it does give me a final answer to some troublesome land cards.
Crack the Earth is one of the best cards to have in the opening draw, but gets weaker in a long game. I've dropped the count to 3.
I'm resisting red sweepers because I always seem to lose to the one creature that it didn't hit. I'm back to 3-4 bolts because spot removal is always important, but the 2 cmc cost of helix sometimes conflicts with playing another card on the same turn.
I'm wondering if another token card is worth considering. I don't want to have a token deck but the efficiency of - for example - doomed traveller or Lingering Souls would make me feel better about surviving long enough to get my planeswalkers up and running.
Wall is not that stellar in the deck with Magus, but it does solve what is an issue for a lot of builds- not enough 2cc spells. So often builds don't work due to overloaded 3 and 4 cc slots, I encourage Walls, Chalices, Mana Tithes, Supression Fields or whatever in addition to boom bust tech. It not a matter of the decks, it is a matter of the time curving out and the percentage of games lost when your first play is t3.
Relic is nowhere near as good as RIP and Cage at hosing various strategies, but it is maindeckable, 1cc and does not interfere other stuff as much.
Really though they are all good cards as indicated in the primer.
RIP- won't work with Crucibles or Flagstones or Dwellers.
Cage- won't work with Dwellers, will hose Chords, won't hurt Living End (which should be an easier match for us).
Relic- mainable, won't work with Chalices or S. fields, can be popped.
All of these cards are good.
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Game 1: Never close. Got a boom//bust with my Flagstones, then Molten Rain, Stone Rain with a turn 5 Dark-Dwellers. He never got enough mana once the Magus stuck.
Game 2: Stuck a Magus along with 2 stone rains early on. Nahiri stuck to the board and ultimate for the win.
Against the much better Jeskai burn deck.
Game 1: Mana tithe to stop boros charm on the draw. Never saw a third land.
Game 2: The punishment this deck gives 3 color decks is insane. He got stuck on 1 land after 3 stone rains.
Game 3: Leyline makes way for an easy victory.
I am really liking this deck. Mana Tithe is awesome. I was unsure about lightning helix but if burn is in your meta it is amazing. I am not sure what I would change if anything right now.
Glad you are enjoying. Manatithe is excellent, although gets worse in a local meta esp vs combo when people play around it, but it does steal games.
I would run it myself but I run Chalices. Never fear on helix, it is a much better card in a deck like ours than in a straight burn deck, those extra life are often the difference between being alive to drop a Magus and not.
One of the interesting issues with Manatithe is it actually very slightly reduces your chances of a t2 landkill and also affects your lifetotal on average in the early game relative to most lists that do not run Manatithe, the latter at least when you don't draw it. This is because Manatithe decks have much less cause to run the often used Temples of Triumph, which increase the chance of T2 landkill by offering a scry- by laying t1 you get to see the extra card. Temples get replaced by Arid Mesas and/or Battlefield Forges more often than not (retreats not really working well t1), which are essential for Manaithe being cast t1 but also obviously cost life. Obviously the Manatithe itself will have great value as it is a solid card that can stop a potentially damaging early play, saving much, but it is worth noting that it does add pain to the deck relative to some lists.
On your list- jut noticed- how often do retreats CIP tapped? Having 4 seems a bit high to me.
Wondering if a Grafdiggers/RIP split might help, as Elves is a sod and Chord decks can be strong at setting up combos against us. Also for Abz company, Elves and other BOP decks Linvala, Keeper is a good board card.
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Glad you are enjoying. Manatithe is excellent, although gets worse in a local meta esp vs combo when people play around it, but it does steal games.
I would run it myself but I run Chalices. Never fear on helix, it is a much better card in a deck like ours than in a straight burn deck, those extra life are often the difference between being alive to drop a Magus and not.
One of the interesting issues with Manatithe is it actually very slightly reduces your chances of a t2 landkill and also affects your lifetotal on average in the early game relative to most lists that do not run Manatithe, the latter at least when you don't draw it. This is because Manatithe decks have much less cause to run the often used Temples of Triumph, which increase the chance of T2 landkill by offering a scry- by laying t1 you get to see the extra card. Temples get replaced by Arid Mesas and/or Battlefield Forges more often than not (retreats not really working well t1), which are essential for Manaithe being cast t1 but also obviously cost life. Obviously the Manatithe itself will have great value as it is a solid card that can stop a potentially damaging early play, saving much, but it is worth noting that it does add pain to the deck relative to some lists.
On your list- jut noticed- how often do retreats CIP tapped? Having 4 seems a bit high to me.
Wondering if a Grafdiggers/RIP split might help, as Elves is a sod and Chord decks can be strong at setting up combos against us. Also for Abz company, Elves and other BOP decks Linvala, Keeper is a good board card.
Yes I have noticed these things. Tithe is excellent and does win me games but it has often ended up dead. I am going to be taking more notes on monday. The question is if I would like 1 crucible and 2 angers mainboard instead with 1 anger in the side and 2 bullet cards (maybe tithe). Again I think it is meta dependent because on Thursdays there are 2 elves deck so I always switch to anger mainboard but on Mondays I see maybe 1 Abz deck, 1 Affinity and no elves. I haven't played affinity yet but I hope to soon.
Retreats I think need to be adjusted. Temples are probably a good bet. I want the new land from SoI in there as well but that might take the place of 1 Ghost Quarter instead. There was one game where I had 3 retreats in hand to start and it just felt terrible.
The sideboard to prevent GY or Chord decks is having me in a pickle. RIP and Graftdigger hose my own win conditions a lot and Elves/Abz have mainboard hate on them a lot and I don't. I am thinking Tormod's Crypt for GY decks with Anger being used to combat Elves and Abz decks is the best way to go. If my meta continues to see a lack of GY decks I might decide to go in a different direction and find something to hose infect or tron more.
I certainly recommend temples- one thing in both RW enchantments, RW Boros Bridge and RW landkill, and for that matter Enduring ideal lists in RW all have in common- the two and three slots are key, and the one slots are light, in stark contrast to say a grixis control list. This makes temples so, so useful, smoothing out both mana and the deck. The better player and more familiar with the deck/matchups you are the better these get.
Best thing against chord and elves decks, apart from chaff like hallowed moonlight that works but is narrow and reactive and 1 cc too much, is those LinValas to stop the combo aspects (and mana dork generations), and, sad to say for you, suppression fields main deck in the case of the 3 colour chord decks, because their deck is full of fetches. It nails their mana base a lot. You can sweep away with wraths/angers but no amounnt of them is enough to make you favourite against either match. Stopping them combo and mana dork is key to turning them into midrange decks that have difficulty beating multiple taxes and landkill, and that does make you favourite in game 2. FWIW 3 colour/color chord decks are vulnerable to our best hands if you play a tight curve with the field. If you play the slower versions they become favourite g1.
Anger won't ever beat elves- nor does any sweeper- I have played the match in double figures plus in events, plus hours of testing against dedicated pilots. You get to the sweeper, and they refill eot and can go off so, so easily. Its sad that we are limited.
Grafdigger's is good vs chord as much as elves. It is simply a case of no magic bullets for them, and no amount of removal is enough to win. We have to be cuter, sadly, and sometimes swap out good stuff we have or allow a few contradictory cards.
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Stony is definitely better, Matrix won't hit mana, darksteels, opals etc. Geist of St has no activated abilities, its a triggered ability and I wish Matrix would hurt them but it won't.
Just to be clear I was not calling your deck pillow-fort, I own the pillow fort primer and was comparing to that.....
People switched to Landkill versions over blood moon/bridge versions, not much else. RW lockdown decks like a greedy aggro deck that has special lands that don't help with Ghostly Prison. Eldrazi is not as hard as certain combo or control matches...........but outside of big events in paper mtg there are less Eldrazi decks than you think.....
In my list I run 4 SF, 2 Chalice, 2 L Helix plus the Boom Bust combo, and even with 4 Temples I mull a fair bit.
I think Outpost siege is a board card in the full landkill versions, we already have 4 Magus and probably 3 or 2 Dark dwellers, and the card although awesome against control lists is often too late in landkill, in contrast with the Bridge lists that have more defensive action in the 2-3 slot and often SSG too. In Skred again the acceleration and plethora of 1cc removal spells really make siege work at the top end. In our version a t3 landkill t4 siege is often not enough to survive.
Does anyone have experience with it? It wasn't a plan of mine, just an experiment that went better than expected. Of course it makes me think that I should look into lingering souls instead.
It's funny how different the red/white approaches can be. You might like the card and I'm pretty sure that it fits what I'm trying to do, but I don't think the lockdown versions would care for it.
On the other hand it took me a while before I understood the skin invasion suggestion. It would make more sense in a deck that relies on taxation.
Sadly Skin Invasion + Ghostly Prison is a Nonbo. The creature has to attack if able, so if you just don't want to pay for Prison you don't attack with the enchanted creature. Skin Invasion doesn't force you to pay for Ghostly Prison even if you could.
RE Timely - it is an awesome card in Legacy Stax builds with Humility. Not so good here, but it still a great card.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 clifftop retreat
4 ghost quarter
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
2 Mountain
Instants
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Tithe
4 Boom//Bust
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
Ench
4 Ghostly Prison
PlanesWalkers
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Ajani Vengeant
Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Rest in Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Stony Silence
3 Anger of the Gods
So before modern tonight I played 2 sets.
First against green treefolk tribal.
Game 1: Never close. Got a boom//bust with my Flagstones, then Molten Rain, Stone Rain with a turn 5 Dark-Dwellers. He never got enough mana once the Magus stuck.
Game 2: Stuck a Magus along with 2 stone rains early on. Nahiri stuck to the board and ultimate for the win.
Against the much better Jeskai burn deck.
Game 1: Mana tithe to stop boros charm on the draw. Never saw a third land.
Game 2: The punishment this deck gives 3 color decks is insane. He got stuck on 1 land after 3 stone rains.
Game 3: Leyline makes way for an easy victory.
I am really liking this deck. Mana Tithe is awesome. I was unsure about lightning helix but if burn is in your meta it is amazing. I am not sure what I would change if anything right now.
Also, isn't Rest in Peace a nombo with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Emrakul?
The 2-2 split on planeswalkers is working really well.
You are right about Rest in Peace. I am the only player at my store that plays a real graveyard deck right now though (Living End). Perhaps Grafdigger's Cage is the better sideboard tech to take out GDD for to keep the emrakul win con.
Also thinking of taking out 2 Ghost Quarter for the new buy back land. Not sure how needed it is right now. Also there is one burn player in my meta so if he doesn't play I would probably swap to Kataki from Firewalker. The sideboard is probably the one thing that should be different for each player unless you are going to a big event.
Crack the Earth is one of the best cards to have in the opening draw, but gets weaker in a long game. I've dropped the count to 3.
I'm resisting red sweepers because I always seem to lose to the one creature that it didn't hit. I'm back to 3-4 bolts because spot removal is always important, but the 2 cmc cost of helix sometimes conflicts with playing another card on the same turn.
I'm wondering if another token card is worth considering. I don't want to have a token deck but the efficiency of - for example - doomed traveller or Lingering Souls would make me feel better about surviving long enough to get my planeswalkers up and running.
Relic is nowhere near as good as RIP and Cage at hosing various strategies, but it is maindeckable, 1cc and does not interfere other stuff as much.
Really though they are all good cards as indicated in the primer.
RIP- won't work with Crucibles or Flagstones or Dwellers.
Cage- won't work with Dwellers, will hose Chords, won't hurt Living End (which should be an easier match for us).
Relic- mainable, won't work with Chalices or S. fields, can be popped.
All of these cards are good.
Glad you are enjoying. Manatithe is excellent, although gets worse in a local meta esp vs combo when people play around it, but it does steal games.
I would run it myself but I run Chalices. Never fear on helix, it is a much better card in a deck like ours than in a straight burn deck, those extra life are often the difference between being alive to drop a Magus and not.
One of the interesting issues with Manatithe is it actually very slightly reduces your chances of a t2 landkill and also affects your lifetotal on average in the early game relative to most lists that do not run Manatithe, the latter at least when you don't draw it. This is because Manatithe decks have much less cause to run the often used Temples of Triumph, which increase the chance of T2 landkill by offering a scry- by laying t1 you get to see the extra card. Temples get replaced by Arid Mesas and/or Battlefield Forges more often than not (retreats not really working well t1), which are essential for Manaithe being cast t1 but also obviously cost life. Obviously the Manatithe itself will have great value as it is a solid card that can stop a potentially damaging early play, saving much, but it is worth noting that it does add pain to the deck relative to some lists.
On your list- jut noticed- how often do retreats CIP tapped? Having 4 seems a bit high to me.
Wondering if a Grafdiggers/RIP split might help, as Elves is a sod and Chord decks can be strong at setting up combos against us. Also for Abz company, Elves and other BOP decks Linvala, Keeper is a good board card.
Yes I have noticed these things. Tithe is excellent and does win me games but it has often ended up dead. I am going to be taking more notes on monday. The question is if I would like 1 crucible and 2 angers mainboard instead with 1 anger in the side and 2 bullet cards (maybe tithe). Again I think it is meta dependent because on Thursdays there are 2 elves deck so I always switch to anger mainboard but on Mondays I see maybe 1 Abz deck, 1 Affinity and no elves. I haven't played affinity yet but I hope to soon.
Retreats I think need to be adjusted. Temples are probably a good bet. I want the new land from SoI in there as well but that might take the place of 1 Ghost Quarter instead. There was one game where I had 3 retreats in hand to start and it just felt terrible.
The sideboard to prevent GY or Chord decks is having me in a pickle. RIP and Graftdigger hose my own win conditions a lot and Elves/Abz have mainboard hate on them a lot and I don't. I am thinking Tormod's Crypt for GY decks with Anger being used to combat Elves and Abz decks is the best way to go. If my meta continues to see a lack of GY decks I might decide to go in a different direction and find something to hose infect or tron more.
Best thing against chord and elves decks, apart from chaff like hallowed moonlight that works but is narrow and reactive and 1 cc too much, is those LinValas to stop the combo aspects (and mana dork generations), and, sad to say for you, suppression fields main deck in the case of the 3 colour chord decks, because their deck is full of fetches. It nails their mana base a lot. You can sweep away with wraths/angers but no amounnt of them is enough to make you favourite against either match. Stopping them combo and mana dork is key to turning them into midrange decks that have difficulty beating multiple taxes and landkill, and that does make you favourite in game 2. FWIW 3 colour/color chord decks are vulnerable to our best hands if you play a tight curve with the field. If you play the slower versions they become favourite g1.
Anger won't ever beat elves- nor does any sweeper- I have played the match in double figures plus in events, plus hours of testing against dedicated pilots. You get to the sweeper, and they refill eot and can go off so, so easily. Its sad that we are limited.
Grafdigger's is good vs chord as much as elves. It is simply a case of no magic bullets for them, and no amount of removal is enough to win. We have to be cuter, sadly, and sometimes swap out good stuff we have or allow a few contradictory cards.