I decided to change up a bit after some testing. Out went the GPrison/Magus package, and in went 4 sweepers and 4 PWs.
Sitting behind Prisons is fine, but it doesn't win the game. And I always hated seeing Magus, even when it would help me.
I just felt like I didn't have enough threats. Anyone else feel that way?
I decided to change up a bit after some testing. Out went the GPrison/Magus package, and in went 4 sweepers and 4 PWs.
Sitting behind Prisons is fine, but it doesn't win the game. And I always hated seeing Magus, even when it would help me.
I just felt like I didn't have enough threats. Anyone else feel that way?
Not really, 4 Magus, Dark dwellers and Mindscensors do the job for me, I normally lose games because I lack control and miss a t2 play or don't see the hard to replicate Magus effect. But if you do not like Magus/GP then that is fine, but you probably need to take out the landkill as well as it has little synergy with the rest. Both, or perhaps now 3 or 4 if you want to subdivide into Nahiri and Resto builds, do it in different ways, and have their own strengths. All have a common core approach of stopping the opponent's plays doing much damage without countering, most have an interaction with the opponent's mana base via Moon or Landkill.
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Apologies first - because this is not at all a Lockdown deck. I'm only throwing it out there because it felt interesting and it uses a lot of the cards that we've been using.
I embraced creatures. Auras too. It's got a lot in common with many of our lists but it's lacking the cards that define the archetype. It's got tons of card draw though. It's got a level of efficiency that none of my other builds have been able to achieve. I'm not sure if I want to spend time grinding out matchups. It's a lot of work.
I think I did it. It's not a lockdown deck but it is a pure RW control deck. No splash. The main control elements are Blood Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Spellskite, targeted removal and Nahiri.
Thraben Inspector comes first. This card has been deceptively good for me. He's a 1/2 creature for W, but he also drops a Clue token artifact. You have to pay two colorless to use it, but you can do it any time. Just wait until the end of your opponent's turn when you've got some mana up. It won't get destroyed. Nobody is going to waste an Abrupt Decay on a token. They'll take care of the creature instead. Later in the game it's a good top-deck. It's 3 mana for a creature and a draw. It is one of the rare 1 cmc creatures that you'll never be sad to draw.
Wall of Omens isn't quite as good. It is similarly used, but you get the advantage of being able to stonewall tons of early threats.
Gryff's Boon is a superior white version of Rancor. It (along with Slayers' Stronghold) gives every creature in the deck (except for the Walls of course) a clock against your opponent. If you've got 2 basic lands, a Spellskite, a Slayers' Stronghold, a Gryff's Boon and a Thraben Inspector on the field then you've got a resilient 5 turn clock. Keep in mind that the Thraben Inspector frequently draws one of these pieces himself when you cash in his clue.
Nahiri is the main win-con and she's usually hitting the board with a lot of support in front of her. This is a deck built around Nahiri. Restoration Angel is also very dangerous in this deck. She usually blinks a Wall or an Inspector to net another draw, and then she's swinging. Aven Mindcensor is a solid threat if you have buffs, and even a Spellskite can seal the deal sometimes.
Here's what I've found (or speculate) in matchups:
Against Tron, Eldrazi and anything that has a greedy manabase you've got 3 Blood Moon and 2 Ghost Quarter in the main. If you like you can tweak either number up by one. You've also got Aven Mindcensor. Post-sideboard you might want Kataki or Stony Silence.
Against Infect you're running plenty of targeted removal and 3 Maindeck Spellskites. I would have a fourth Spellskite in the sideboard for sure. It might come down to the spellskites but that's a pretty effective way to battle Infect.
Against Affinity you should have a chance, but you might have to win the post-board matchups. At this point I think you could easily have Kataki and/or Stony Silence in the sideboard.
Against Jund - I've been beating Jund. Their discard has never felt less threatening to me and they often don't seem to have sufficient threat density. It's never an easy matchup but I feel like it's in my favor.
Against combo decks you're leaning on Aven Mindcensor a little bit. My deck is capable of playing a weak version of the beatdown and I do have a decent collection of hate cards and targeted removal. I'm not sure exactly how this would work. It has occurred to me that Duergar Hedge-Mage might be useful to me in some of these matchups. I could also conceivably just include Story Circle in my sideboard.
Zoo and Burn - these could be negative pre-board matchups. Spellskite should play strong against both and they're pretty much what Lightning Bolts were designed to stop, but I might have a problem with the higher threat-density.
I think I've got a decent game against Control decks. I think that they're going to have to bolt or counter my ETB creatures or else risk falling behind me in card advantage. They've got better draw cards overall than I do, but I'll be casting my drawn cards when they're casting their draw spells. Gryff's Boon and Slayers' Stronghold should be a particularly challenging pair of threats for them. It will be hard for them to keep my board completely clear, and if they try too hard then I'll sneak Nahiri through.
I think I did it. It's not a lockdown deck but it is a pure RW control deck. No splash. The main control elements are Blood Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Spellskite, targeted removal and Nahiri.
Thraben Inspector comes first. This card has been deceptively good for me. He's a 1/2 creature for W, but he also drops a Clue token artifact. You have to pay two colorless to use it, but you can do it any time. Just wait until the end of your opponent's turn when you've got some mana up. It won't get destroyed. Nobody is going to waste an Abrupt Decay on a token. They'll take care of the creature instead. Later in the game it's a good top-deck. It's 3 mana for a creature and a draw. It is one of the rare 1 cmc creatures that you'll never be sad to draw.
Wall of Omens isn't quite as good. It is similarly used, but you get the advantage of being able to stonewall tons of early threats.
Gryff's Boon is a superior white version of Rancor. It (along with Slayers' Stronghold) gives every creature in the deck (except for the Walls of course) a clock against your opponent. If you've got 2 basic lands, a Spellskite, a Slayers' Stronghold, a Gryff's Boon and a Thraben Inspector on the field then you've got a resilient 5 turn clock. Keep in mind that the Thraben Inspector frequently draws one of these pieces himself when you cash in his clue.
Nahiri is the main win-con and she's usually hitting the board with a lot of support in front of her. This is a deck built around Nahiri. Restoration Angel is also very dangerous in this deck. She usually blinks a Wall or an Inspector to net another draw, and then she's swinging. Aven Mindcensor is a solid threat if you have buffs, and even a Spellskite can seal the deal sometimes.
Here's what I've found (or speculate) in matchups:
Against Tron, Eldrazi and anything that has a greedy manabase you've got 3 Blood Moon and 2 Ghost Quarter in the main. If you like you can tweak either number up by one. You've also got Aven Mindcensor. Post-sideboard you might want Kataki or Stony Silence.
Against Infect you're running plenty of targeted removal and 3 Maindeck Spellskites. I would have a fourth Spellskite in the sideboard for sure. It might come down to the spellskites but that's a pretty effective way to battle Infect.
Against Affinity you should have a chance, but you might have to win the post-board matchups. At this point I think you could easily have Kataki and/or Stony Silence in the sideboard.
Against Jund - I've been beating Jund. Their discard has never felt less threatening to me and they often don't seem to have sufficient threat density. It's never an easy matchup but I feel like it's in my favor.
Against combo decks you're leaning on Aven Mindcensor a little bit. My deck is capable of playing a weak version of the beatdown and I do have a decent collection of hate cards and targeted removal. I'm not sure exactly how this would work. It has occurred to me that Duergar Hedge-Mage might be useful to me in some of these matchups. I could also conceivably just include Story Circle in my sideboard.
Zoo and Burn - these could be negative pre-board matchups. Spellskite should play strong against both and they're pretty much what Lightning Bolts were designed to stop, but I might have a problem with the higher threat-density.
I think I've got a decent game against Control decks. I think that they're going to have to bolt or counter my ETB creatures or else risk falling behind me in card advantage. They've got better draw cards overall than I do, but I'll be casting my drawn cards when they're casting their draw spells. Gryff's Boon and Slayers' Stronghold should be a particularly challenging pair of threats for them. It will be hard for them to keep my board completely clear, and if they try too hard then I'll sneak Nahiri through.
I'm feeling pretty good about this build so far.
Is there a reason there's not at least one or two fetchable duals in your list? I feel like sometimes you may want to play Ember Hauler on turn 2 to build a board state and your current mana base doesn't support it if you drop a plains for inspector. I understand the effect you're looking for but it does seem a bit slow given the mana base constraints. Have you considered Seal of Fire there instead?
I could see something crazy in your list like Prophetic Flamespeaker doing some potential work given the precedents of 1 drops and synergy with stronghold.
Seal of Fire won't work. I love that card but I need creatures there. I was going back and forth on Ember Hauler and Leonin Arbiter. I also considered Thalia, Serra Avenger and more than a few others. I do see the value in your proposal to add at least one fetchable shockland.
The build is easy to play, but it would not be an easy one to play well. If it got play then it would occupy a strange spot in the meta. It is definitely a control deck, but you can transition in and out of being the beatdown. I'm trying to build a deck that plays like a control deck against Jund, Tron, and Chord/Company decks, a mid-range deck against aggro and a particularly resilient brand of aggro deck against Control. I'm also trying to use a restricted (2-color) mana-base, blood moon and D&T style tactics to have a reasonable chance against combo and ramp decks.
Largely the same as his SCG list. A few cards I feel iffy on are Leyline of Sanctity and Gideon Jura. Isn't Gideon, Ally of Zendikar better or is Gideon Jura's first mode too good? Is Leyline needed/wanted mainboard? Part of me says it's great if you open it vs Grixis, Jund, Abzan, etc but otherwise at 4 mana it'll come down too late. Other cards to possibly consider are Call the Gatewatch, you have 4 Planeswalkers and finding one seems strong also want to say I saw a similar list running Oath of Gideon, 2 1/1's help chump early and the extra counter gives you 2 Lightning Helix out of Ajani but otherwise isn't the biggest deal. Other than that I like the deck a lot. Blood Moon is strong as always, Anger of the Gods and Day of Judgement are great vs all the creature decks and Day of Judgement is an answer to Eldrazi.
Well actually I have the thread for W(X) Enchantment control too (Pillow-Fort). They can often use Sigil, Heliod or Luminarch as the win con......
If a version was super enchantment heavy I would suggest going there as (a) the thread is not stickied and needs the support and (b) there are some experienced players who have played all the different splashes. The primer is ok too....;)
FWIW I play RW as my Pillow Fort enchantment version, and I can honestly say that there really is nothing like a board of Ghostly prisons, Sphere of Safety(s), Halos, suppression Fields, Leylines, Auramancies, Nykthos and Heliods. And when you cast a singleton obliterate and they read it and realize that their entire board is dead, and yours is not, there is real fun to be had. To be honest those types of decks are super at wiping the floor with mid speed value aggro decks like Merfolk and Tokens, get some free G1 wins against combo decks like Ad Nauseam, but tend to be super weak to tron and the faster all in combo decks, whilst being mediocre against some control decks.
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
Ponza Deck listed above is almost an exact copy of one of the builds that I tried. I think it's a stretch to call it a lockdown.
I retreated with my list as well, and although I myself insist on building around Nahiri, I was never able to convince myself that Nahiri deserves a spot in Lockdown lists. The land destruction versions are the best fit, but they are inconsistent. She has unfortunate interactions with both Prison and Bridge, and that makes her awkward in almost any lockdown build.
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
Powering out the lock pieces is very good if they are within your opening hand but it does not guarantee a win. Plenty of people just die to a 2cmc vanilla creature because they don't have the clock. Running too many fast mana cards dilutes the deck of stronger pieces. Modern's card pool just isn't in the place where doing something like that would guarantee a win. Chalice on 1 is a strong play against most decks but it doesn't neuter them and neither are people's mana bases are diluted like they are in Legacy/Vintage. That's why the deck constraints are tied to running some mixture of targeted removal/sweepers to bridge the gap for the late game win conditions.
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
Powering out the lock pieces is very good if they are within your opening hand but it does not guarantee a win. Plenty of people just die to a 2cmc vanilla creature because they don't have the clock. Running too many fast mana cards dilutes the deck of stronger pieces. Modern's card pool just isn't in the place where doing something like that would guarantee a win. Chalice on 1 is a strong play against most decks but it doesn't neuter them and neither are people's mana bases are diluted like they are in Legacy/Vintage. That's why the deck constraints are tied to running some mixture of targeted removal/sweepers to bridge the gap for the late game win conditions.
Then do you think that kind of strategies could only be used by dragon/eldrazi stompy and affinity style of decks? I mean I understand the difference with the classic eldrazi stompy of LSV and team channelfireball, Nahiri doesn't have that kind of aggro.
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
Powering out the lock pieces is very good if they are within your opening hand but it does not guarantee a win. Plenty of people just die to a 2cmc vanilla creature because they don't have the clock. Running too many fast mana cards dilutes the deck of stronger pieces. Modern's card pool just isn't in the place where doing something like that would guarantee a win. Chalice on 1 is a strong play against most decks but it doesn't neuter them and neither are people's mana bases are diluted like they are in Legacy/Vintage. That's why the deck constraints are tied to running some mixture of targeted removal/sweepers to bridge the gap for the late game win conditions.
Then do you think that kind of strategies could only be used by dragon/eldrazi stompy and affinity style of decks? I mean I understand the difference with the classic eldrazi stompy of LSV and team channelfireball, Nahiri doesn't have that kind of aggro.
Mostly. The issue arises in consistency. Gemstone caverns is a terrible draw but excellent in the opening hand. Extra SSGs after using the first generally are way less impactful. This archetype isn't trying to combo finish an opponent but grind them out and every piece needs to work together. The lists that run SSG give up some consistency for more explosive starts and I think it's definitely a route to take but going full blown just isn't worth it. The card disadvantage is definitely an issue with deckbuilding around caverns/SSG. The eldrazi list CFB used at the PT could afford to run chalice and SSG because their t2 and t3 plays beat every other deck in the field.
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
It depends on which version of the deck you are talking about, saying "why don't you play X?" implies that these are auto includes in all RW lockdown decks, which they are not. In fairness not even Bolt is an auto include due to chalice. Its all down to the synergies in the deck.
SSG is used in the bridge based lockdown decks running Moon, its near universal, but rarely in landkill-stax builds as it is not very good in landkill-stax, because just killing a t2 and t3 land wins approximately 3-5% of the games you play in, and you can't make the card disadvantage work for you. Moon of course is not always present in the Landkill-stax versions or even the Nahrir-Ponza style deck above.
Gemstone caverns is used in some builds but it is effectively colourless and competes with GQ in a deck that often does not run fetches and needs RR WW if it is a landkill version.. A key point to remember is that cast casting t2/3/4 landkill does not win many matches, decks run more real lands than Legacy and don't have the slow clock of Standard, so going balls-out for the t2 landkill does not pay off if you are card disadvantaging to do it.
Chalice is a 2-4 of in all the lockdown types, it depends on how many other things you have to do. Bolt is normally not used with Chalice, helix is the most common replacement. O ring is good too.
There is more on SSG in the primer, and the different versions of the deck......
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Ponza Deck listed above is almost an exact copy of one of the builds that I tried. I think it's a stretch to call it a lockdown.
I retreated with my list as well, and although I myself insist on building around Nahiri, I was never able to convince myself that Nahiri deserves a spot in Lockdown lists. The land destruction versions are the best fit, but they are inconsistent. She has unfortunate interactions with both Prison and Bridge, and that makes her awkward in almost any lockdown build.
My current list is more control than lockdown.
Ponza style RW landkill is a lockdown deck in that it leaves opponents with few plays and plenty of cards in hand, I know what you mean, but it is fine here as it overlaps a lot with Landkill-Stax. Yes, I agree totally on Nahiri, she is good in a RW control list, a bridge/moon list without the bridges with extra removal. But in a Bridge decks she is less stellar, although fetching an artifact is possible, which has potential.....
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i have been playing this deck on x-mage and it is decent, since i own almost all those cards (missing 2 nahiri) i thought i would give it a try this friday but i need help with the sideboard, my meta is full of burn, jund, affinity, merfolk, coco elves, kiki chord, few brews with nahiri are starting to happear so id like to show them mine but i dont know what to bring in my sideboard here is what i have so far
i really like Grafdigger's Cage but i cant use it because it doesnt work well with emrakul so i tought maybe some torpor orb but if i bring it i wont draw a card from wall of omens but its not the end of the world, is there anything else that makes it hard for those chord of calling players?
besides that i dont know what to put in maybe some celestial purge
i really like this deck, if you cant win with nahiri and emrakul, you can win with dark dweller and casting boom//bust to destroy all land and just beat them with the 4/4 menace. ghsotly prison and magus of the tabernacl are best friends here not a win con, but you will find it with the time they gives you. anyway any advice on my sideboard woul be appreciated thank you.
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@everybody: I have been pleasantly surprised by the combination of Thraben Inspector, Heliod's Pilgrim and Wall of Omens, but I've had no apparent interest from the community when I've talked about it.
I know that Walls don't get people's blood pumping and the other two are vanilla weenie creatures once they hit the board, but this is reliable, free card draw in a color combination that hurts for it. There is admittedly a minor build limitation in that you need to be able to make use of these creatures beyond simply sitting on the board in front of you, but I believe that a single copy of Gryff's Boon and 2 Slayers' Stronghold more or less solves that problem by turning them into (at worst) Spark Elementals that replace themselves. It has given me a sub-game that I can play even as my opponent struggles to answer Nahiri, and it significantly taxes the resources of control decks that generally aren't set up to permanently answer a repeatable aura.
Is unfamiliarity with Gryff's Boon a factor? I can tell you that Bogles players have embraced it. It doesn't have the Rancor RTH clause, so counterspells and targeted removal don't remove it from your arsenal. You can re-cast it from the graveyard over and over again.
i have been playing this deck on x-mage and it is decent, since i own almost all those cards (missing 2 nahiri) i thought i would give it a try this friday but i need help with the sideboard, my meta is full of burn, jund, affinity, merfolk, coco elves, kiki chord, few brews with nahiri are starting to happear so id like to show them mine but i dont know what to bring in my sideboard here is what i have so far
i really like Grafdigger's Cage but i cant use it because it doesnt work well with emrakul so i tought maybe some torpor orb but if i bring it i wont draw a card from wall of omens but its not the end of the world, is there anything else that makes it hard for those chord of calling players?
besides that i dont know what to put in maybe some celestial purge
i really like this deck, if you cant win with nahiri and emrakul, you can win with dark dweller and casting boom//bust to destroy all land and just beat them with the 4/4 menace. ghsotly prison and magus of the tabernacl are best friends here not a win con, but you will find it with the time they gives you. anyway any advice on my sideboard woul be appreciated thank you.
Aven Mindcesor is pretty standard in most Landkill-Stax decks running magus, normally main deck.
A sideboard alternative is hallowed moonlight, as you only pull the trigger on it in response to chord.
BTW I would recomend using "deck" and "/deck" to save yourself some time and format the decklist better.
I do not think you need 4 kor firewalkers- zero synergy with magus. Sanctimony is better as a lifegain effect.
I would recommend you cut down on darksteel citadels, and employ a couple of ghost quarters. You can target a fetchland or gq boom and pop in response, it won't fizzle as there is still a target.
You may find that simian spirit guide does not work that well and that more landkill, or actually more likely more land (fetches) is better in that slot. You are very vulnerable to blood moon, and a bit low on land...............
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aven mindcensor is a great card that i didnt think of so i will include it in my sideboard.i dont really need it main but its a great chard against chord of calling so thank you.
i never did a deck on here and even though i join in 2013 i dont really post that much so im a noob when it comes to the options the site offers.
about simian spirit guide you just dont get it, its a must in this deck, turn 1 i can landrop, simian spirit guide and boom bust their only land so on turn 2 they have one land and i have 2 thanks to flagstone or darksteel, or i can landrop simian spirit guide chalice of the void at 1 and that alone is sometimes enough to win the game (infect and burn in mind)
kor firewalker is just a beast against burn and there is a lot in my meta and that the main reason i side it. i dont care about synergie here i just dont wanna die by fire but sanctimony is another great option id have to playtest it to see which one i prefer.
i tried using fetch like arid mesa but there are just not good enough, flagstone and darksteel citadel are all i need as a target with boom bust and that is why i play 4 of each. if i destroy all lands with dark dweller casting the bust side of the cards i still have lands thanks to flagstone and darksteel, with fetch it doesnt work. If i could put some more indestructible or replacebale land in here id do it.
im vulnerable to blood moon that is true, until nahiri comes out or i just need to side in some wear//tear in the side and suddenly blood moon aint that scary.
you think im low on land but try the deck and you will see that it aint true. i just need 4 or 5 mana and more early than late game so simian spirit guide is perfect for this job and if i have a gemstone caverns before the game begins i could ghostly prison turn 1 and that really aint bad if i can cast a magus of the tabernacle later in the game, he will just be lockdown, add a chaliss at one and wait for nahiri to do her job.
anyway thanks for your sideboard ideas i will have to test those cards and see how they perform.sanctimony for burn hallowed moonlight and aven mindcensor against chord of calling decks
edit: i used to play 4 molten rain but every time i drew one id rather draw anything else in my deck so thats why they are out.
Sitting behind Prisons is fine, but it doesn't win the game. And I always hated seeing Magus, even when it would help me.
I just felt like I didn't have enough threats. Anyone else feel that way?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=292409
Not really, 4 Magus, Dark dwellers and Mindscensors do the job for me, I normally lose games because I lack control and miss a t2 play or don't see the hard to replicate Magus effect. But if you do not like Magus/GP then that is fine, but you probably need to take out the landkill as well as it has little synergy with the rest. Both, or perhaps now 3 or 4 if you want to subdivide into Nahiri and Resto builds, do it in different ways, and have their own strengths. All have a common core approach of stopping the opponent's plays doing much damage without countering, most have an interaction with the opponent's mana base via Moon or Landkill.
4x Thraben Inspector
3x Restoration Angel
3x Heliod's Pilgrim
3x Wall of Omens
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Dragon Mantle
1x Gryff's Boon
2x Deflecting Palm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
I embraced creatures. Auras too. It's got a lot in common with many of our lists but it's lacking the cards that define the archetype. It's got tons of card draw though. It's got a level of efficiency that none of my other builds have been able to achieve. I'm not sure if I want to spend time grinding out matchups. It's a lot of work.
3x Ember Hauler
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Restoration Angel
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Wall of Omens
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Spellskite
3x Blood Moon
1x Gelid Shackles
1x Guard Duty
2x Gryff's Boon
Instants (7)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Lands (23)
4x Arid Mesa
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Slayers' Stronghold
7x Snow-Covered Mountain
7x Snow-Covered Plains
Thraben Inspector comes first. This card has been deceptively good for me. He's a 1/2 creature for W, but he also drops a Clue token artifact. You have to pay two colorless to use it, but you can do it any time. Just wait until the end of your opponent's turn when you've got some mana up. It won't get destroyed. Nobody is going to waste an Abrupt Decay on a token. They'll take care of the creature instead. Later in the game it's a good top-deck. It's 3 mana for a creature and a draw. It is one of the rare 1 cmc creatures that you'll never be sad to draw.
Wall of Omens isn't quite as good. It is similarly used, but you get the advantage of being able to stonewall tons of early threats.
Gryff's Boon is a superior white version of Rancor. It (along with Slayers' Stronghold) gives every creature in the deck (except for the Walls of course) a clock against your opponent. If you've got 2 basic lands, a Spellskite, a Slayers' Stronghold, a Gryff's Boon and a Thraben Inspector on the field then you've got a resilient 5 turn clock. Keep in mind that the Thraben Inspector frequently draws one of these pieces himself when you cash in his clue.
Nahiri is the main win-con and she's usually hitting the board with a lot of support in front of her. This is a deck built around Nahiri. Restoration Angel is also very dangerous in this deck. She usually blinks a Wall or an Inspector to net another draw, and then she's swinging. Aven Mindcensor is a solid threat if you have buffs, and even a Spellskite can seal the deal sometimes.
Here's what I've found (or speculate) in matchups:
I'm feeling pretty good about this build so far.
Is there a reason there's not at least one or two fetchable duals in your list? I feel like sometimes you may want to play Ember Hauler on turn 2 to build a board state and your current mana base doesn't support it if you drop a plains for inspector. I understand the effect you're looking for but it does seem a bit slow given the mana base constraints. Have you considered Seal of Fire there instead?
I could see something crazy in your list like Prophetic Flamespeaker doing some potential work given the precedents of 1 drops and synergy with stronghold.
The build is easy to play, but it would not be an easy one to play well. If it got play then it would occupy a strange spot in the meta. It is definitely a control deck, but you can transition in and out of being the beatdown. I'm trying to build a deck that plays like a control deck against Jund, Tron, and Chord/Company decks, a mid-range deck against aggro and a particularly resilient brand of aggro deck against Control. I'm also trying to use a restricted (2-color) mana-base, blood moon and D&T style tactics to have a reasonable chance against combo and ramp decks.
It's obviously a tall order.
4 Clifftop Retreat
1 Mountain
14 Plains
4 Rugged Prairie
2 Sacred Foundry
4 CREATURES
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Simian Spirit Guide
13 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Angelsong
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Day of Judgment
3 Lightning Helix
2 Timely Reinforcements
18 OTHER SPELLS
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Gideon Jura
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Celestial Purge
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
Largely the same as his SCG list. A few cards I feel iffy on are Leyline of Sanctity and Gideon Jura. Isn't Gideon, Ally of Zendikar better or is Gideon Jura's first mode too good? Is Leyline needed/wanted mainboard? Part of me says it's great if you open it vs Grixis, Jund, Abzan, etc but otherwise at 4 mana it'll come down too late. Other cards to possibly consider are Call the Gatewatch, you have 4 Planeswalkers and finding one seems strong also want to say I saw a similar list running Oath of Gideon, 2 1/1's help chump early and the extra counter gives you 2 Lightning Helix out of Ajani but otherwise isn't the biggest deal. Other than that I like the deck a lot. Blood Moon is strong as always, Anger of the Gods and Day of Judgement are great vs all the creature decks and Day of Judgement is an answer to Eldrazi.
On the more enchantment based version has nobody considered Sigil of the Empty Throne as a win condition. Idyllic Tutor can search some silver bullets.
Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
Well actually I have the thread for W(X) Enchantment control too (Pillow-Fort). They can often use Sigil, Heliod or Luminarch as the win con......
If a version was super enchantment heavy I would suggest going there as (a) the thread is not stickied and needs the support and (b) there are some experienced players who have played all the different splashes. The primer is ok too....;)
FWIW I play RW as my Pillow Fort enchantment version, and I can honestly say that there really is nothing like a board of Ghostly prisons, Sphere of Safety(s), Halos, suppression Fields, Leylines, Auramancies, Nykthos and Heliods. And when you cast a singleton obliterate and they read it and realize that their entire board is dead, and yours is not, there is real fun to be had. To be honest those types of decks are super at wiping the floor with mid speed value aggro decks like Merfolk and Tokens, get some free G1 wins against combo decks like Ad Nauseam, but tend to be super weak to tron and the faster all in combo decks, whilst being mediocre against some control decks.
More discussion from eminent sources.......
We seem to be gaining popularity
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Boom
4 Molten Rain
2 Defense Grid
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Wear
1 Shatterstorm
Also if you play blood moon and chalice wouldn't it be better to replace lightning bolt with helix, and playing another white removal that would'nt be shut down with chalice like oblivion ring, journey to nowhere, or not enchantment based like valorous stance?
I retreated with my list as well, and although I myself insist on building around Nahiri, I was never able to convince myself that Nahiri deserves a spot in Lockdown lists. The land destruction versions are the best fit, but they are inconsistent. She has unfortunate interactions with both Prison and Bridge, and that makes her awkward in almost any lockdown build.
My current list is more control than lockdown.
Powering out the lock pieces is very good if they are within your opening hand but it does not guarantee a win. Plenty of people just die to a 2cmc vanilla creature because they don't have the clock. Running too many fast mana cards dilutes the deck of stronger pieces. Modern's card pool just isn't in the place where doing something like that would guarantee a win. Chalice on 1 is a strong play against most decks but it doesn't neuter them and neither are people's mana bases are diluted like they are in Legacy/Vintage. That's why the deck constraints are tied to running some mixture of targeted removal/sweepers to bridge the gap for the late game win conditions.
Then do you think that kind of strategies could only be used by dragon/eldrazi stompy and affinity style of decks? I mean I understand the difference with the classic eldrazi stompy of LSV and team channelfireball, Nahiri doesn't have that kind of aggro.
Mostly. The issue arises in consistency. Gemstone caverns is a terrible draw but excellent in the opening hand. Extra SSGs after using the first generally are way less impactful. This archetype isn't trying to combo finish an opponent but grind them out and every piece needs to work together. The lists that run SSG give up some consistency for more explosive starts and I think it's definitely a route to take but going full blown just isn't worth it. The card disadvantage is definitely an issue with deckbuilding around caverns/SSG. The eldrazi list CFB used at the PT could afford to run chalice and SSG because their t2 and t3 plays beat every other deck in the field.
It depends on which version of the deck you are talking about, saying "why don't you play X?" implies that these are auto includes in all RW lockdown decks, which they are not. In fairness not even Bolt is an auto include due to chalice. Its all down to the synergies in the deck.
SSG is used in the bridge based lockdown decks running Moon, its near universal, but rarely in landkill-stax builds as it is not very good in landkill-stax, because just killing a t2 and t3 land wins approximately 3-5% of the games you play in, and you can't make the card disadvantage work for you. Moon of course is not always present in the Landkill-stax versions or even the Nahrir-Ponza style deck above.
Gemstone caverns is used in some builds but it is effectively colourless and competes with GQ in a deck that often does not run fetches and needs RR WW if it is a landkill version.. A key point to remember is that cast casting t2/3/4 landkill does not win many matches, decks run more real lands than Legacy and don't have the slow clock of Standard, so going balls-out for the t2 landkill does not pay off if you are card disadvantaging to do it.
Chalice is a 2-4 of in all the lockdown types, it depends on how many other things you have to do. Bolt is normally not used with Chalice, helix is the most common replacement. O ring is good too.
There is more on SSG in the primer, and the different versions of the deck......
Ponza style RW landkill is a lockdown deck in that it leaves opponents with few plays and plenty of cards in hand, I know what you mean, but it is fine here as it overlaps a lot with Landkill-Stax. Yes, I agree totally on Nahiri, she is good in a RW control list, a bridge/moon list without the bridges with extra removal. But in a Bridge decks she is less stellar, although fetching an artifact is possible, which has potential.....
4chalice of the void 4flagstone of trokair
4simian spirit guide 4darksteel citadel
4boom//bust 4temple of triumph
4wall of omens 4sacred foundry
4lightning helix 1rugged prairie
3pyroclasm 1gemstone caverns
4ghostly prison 2 mountain and 2 plain
4nahiri, the harbinger
3magus of the tabernacle
3goblin dark-dwellers
1emrakul, the aeons thorn
i have been playing this deck on x-mage and it is decent, since i own almost all those cards (missing 2 nahiri) i thought i would give it a try this friday but i need help with the sideboard, my meta is full of burn, jund, affinity, merfolk, coco elves, kiki chord, few brews with nahiri are starting to happear so id like to show them mine but i dont know what to bring in my sideboard here is what i have so far
sideboard
4kor firewalker
3stony silence
2rest in peace
2wrath of god
i really like Grafdigger's Cage but i cant use it because it doesnt work well with emrakul so i tought maybe some torpor orb but if i bring it i wont draw a card from wall of omens but its not the end of the world, is there anything else that makes it hard for those chord of calling players?
besides that i dont know what to put in maybe some celestial purge
i really like this deck, if you cant win with nahiri and emrakul, you can win with dark dweller and casting boom//bust to destroy all land and just beat them with the 4/4 menace. ghsotly prison and magus of the tabernacl are best friends here not a win con, but you will find it with the time they gives you. anyway any advice on my sideboard woul be appreciated thank you.
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
@everybody: I have been pleasantly surprised by the combination of Thraben Inspector, Heliod's Pilgrim and Wall of Omens, but I've had no apparent interest from the community when I've talked about it.
I know that Walls don't get people's blood pumping and the other two are vanilla weenie creatures once they hit the board, but this is reliable, free card draw in a color combination that hurts for it. There is admittedly a minor build limitation in that you need to be able to make use of these creatures beyond simply sitting on the board in front of you, but I believe that a single copy of Gryff's Boon and 2 Slayers' Stronghold more or less solves that problem by turning them into (at worst) Spark Elementals that replace themselves. It has given me a sub-game that I can play even as my opponent struggles to answer Nahiri, and it significantly taxes the resources of control decks that generally aren't set up to permanently answer a repeatable aura.
Is unfamiliarity with Gryff's Boon a factor? I can tell you that Bogles players have embraced it. It doesn't have the Rancor RTH clause, so counterspells and targeted removal don't remove it from your arsenal. You can re-cast it from the graveyard over and over again.
Aven Mindcesor is pretty standard in most Landkill-Stax decks running magus, normally main deck.
A sideboard alternative is hallowed moonlight, as you only pull the trigger on it in response to chord.
BTW I would recomend using "deck" and "/deck" to save yourself some time and format the decklist better.
I do not think you need 4 kor firewalkers- zero synergy with magus. Sanctimony is better as a lifegain effect.
I would recommend you cut down on darksteel citadels, and employ a couple of ghost quarters. You can target a fetchland or gq boom and pop in response, it won't fizzle as there is still a target.
You may find that simian spirit guide does not work that well and that more landkill, or actually more likely more land (fetches) is better in that slot. You are very vulnerable to blood moon, and a bit low on land...............
i never did a deck on here and even though i join in 2013 i dont really post that much so im a noob when it comes to the options the site offers.
about simian spirit guide you just dont get it, its a must in this deck, turn 1 i can landrop, simian spirit guide and boom bust their only land so on turn 2 they have one land and i have 2 thanks to flagstone or darksteel, or i can landrop simian spirit guide chalice of the void at 1 and that alone is sometimes enough to win the game (infect and burn in mind)
kor firewalker is just a beast against burn and there is a lot in my meta and that the main reason i side it. i dont care about synergie here i just dont wanna die by fire but sanctimony is another great option id have to playtest it to see which one i prefer.
i tried using fetch like arid mesa but there are just not good enough, flagstone and darksteel citadel are all i need as a target with boom bust and that is why i play 4 of each. if i destroy all lands with dark dweller casting the bust side of the cards i still have lands thanks to flagstone and darksteel, with fetch it doesnt work. If i could put some more indestructible or replacebale land in here id do it.
im vulnerable to blood moon that is true, until nahiri comes out or i just need to side in some wear//tear in the side and suddenly blood moon aint that scary.
you think im low on land but try the deck and you will see that it aint true. i just need 4 or 5 mana and more early than late game so simian spirit guide is perfect for this job and if i have a gemstone caverns before the game begins i could ghostly prison turn 1 and that really aint bad if i can cast a magus of the tabernacle later in the game, he will just be lockdown, add a chaliss at one and wait for nahiri to do her job.
anyway thanks for your sideboard ideas i will have to test those cards and see how they perform.sanctimony for burn hallowed moonlight and aven mindcensor against chord of calling decks
edit: i used to play 4 molten rain but every time i drew one id rather draw anything else in my deck so thats why they are out.
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore