For a straight UR version I would play something along this line:
7 2 Mana Mancer, 1 Sanctum
9 Rituals (3 from each)
8 1 Mana Cantrips
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Remand
2 Spell Pierce/Dispel/Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gifts
1 Revival
19 lands
2 flex spots (either more cantrips, a Clique or more interaction)
The one mana counter spells are better here, since they allow you to play cantrip into counter on turn two, or when you go T4 Mancer into cantrip into counter back up. Would run probably run something long Swan Song or similar in this shell. Only 3 Gifts, cause you want to play with Scroll to have a tutor for the Echoing Truth (you can play also two scrolls btw). Fatal Push is annoying, but also a reason to run more 1 mana counter.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hey Kathal, thanks for your input. One goal of my list is to determine whether increased speed and consistency of 8 2 mana Mancer effects allows you to not need to interact as much as your proposed build - though having said that I am starting with 4 Remand as interactive/tempo effects.
I do like Sanctum for the GBx matchups but it is going to be a brick some amount of the time so I will have it in SB to start.
I am planning to get some live games in next Wednesday/Thursday once Aether Revolt is released so I will update the thread with the relevant data.
Hey Kathal, thanks for your input. One goal of my list is to determine whether increased speed and consistency of 8 2 mana Mancer effects allows you to not need to interact as much as your proposed build - though having said that I am starting with 4 Remand as interactive/tempo effects.
I do like Sanctum for the GBx matchups but it is going to be a brick some amount of the time so I will have it in SB to start.
I am planning to get some live games in next Wednesday/Thursday once Aether Revolt is released so I will update the thread with the relevant data.
Run Sanctum as a one off main, before you move it in the SB, where it doesn't belong (to low impact). Also, running 4 Remands is to much, even the more controlling shells only run 3 copies. I would even go down to 2 copies in the UR shell (as I suggested) and run more one mana counters, which give you access way better sequencing. Also, you really need removal, there was a reason, why the classic Storm list sucked nowadays.
Jace's Sanctum needs to be played to understand how good it is.
I scoffed at Sanctum for a long time, till I finally said "F-it" and gave it a shot.
It's really incredibly surprising how many games that card has won me.
That being said, It may just be better in a more midrangey/control shell, than an all-in UR mancer shell.
I can still remember, when you basically rolled your eyes about this card and just because I run it (and reported it) you had to test it
The reason, why I would play Sanctum even in the UR All-in version:
- Yes, it is clunky (that is also a reason, why you should only play with 3 Gifts, if you want to play more, run Scrolls) but 90% of the decks cannot handle it. This is even more important now, with the print of Fatal Push, which makes the two mana Mancer effects more vulnerable.
- It allows natural "storming" without Gifts. The amount of games I just won by chaining spells together, scrying to the cards I need is just ridiculous. Heck, today again I won a game solely because of the lack of removal for that card while I went through my library to find that PiF/Gifts to win on the spot.
Mini report:
Played three rounds today (had to leave early, cause I have to prep stuff for tomorrow) with the same list as usual (still with Probes). SB was different, was running a one off Geist and Clique cause 5 drops suck and a filled the rest with random good stuff (counters, 4th Path, Extraction, Wear/Tear, Disenchant, Echoing Truth,...).
Round 1 vs Affinity 2-0:
Game 1 he mulled to 4 and had a decent hand. However, I had the turn 5 kill of an Mentor. Game 2 was harsh one, since he played something along two Signal Pest, 3 0 drops, and a Overseer. Since I had 2 Paths, a Snappy and a Bolt I was able to deal with the biggest threats. I went with an upkeep Gifts into grabbing the standard pile (had Homunculus + Sanctum in play). He gave me Ritual + Morphose. Than, before the draw step be Galvanic Blasted me, I was on 4 life. I went Ritual, scry 1, land, and bot. Morphose, scry 1, Mentor, nope, don't need you. Draw of Morphose: Blessed Alliance.
One of Blessed Alliance saved my butt here and I won the next turn with a flashbacked PiF.
Round 2 vs Mono U Tron 1-2:
Game 1 I kept a 7 card hand with one land (Sacred Foundry) and two Probes on the draw but failed to draw a land over 4 consecutive turns. When I found it, the Tron player was able to Mindslaver me out. Game 2 was a steamroll from my side. Turn 2 Homunculus, he couldn't handle him into a turn 4 win, since he tapped out on his turn 3 for a Wurmcoil Engine. Game 3 I mulled down to 5, kept a mediocre hand with only one land and no cantrips but was able to draw gas from the top. My opponent played Treasure Mage into Solemn into another Solemn and went for beatdown. He got me down to 1 life with his last attack (trading with Clique) and was tapped out. I started to combo without a Gifts but with a PiF, but failed to find anything useful with the flashback cantrips. Was a close one (would have needed to dig like 4 more cards to find the Grapeshot to win that turn).
Round 3 vs Griselbanned (Shoal version) 2-0
Game 1 he mulled down to 5, failed to find a land for 4 turns, even though he casted two Lootings of SSGs. I sticked a Mentor and he closed the game out within 3 turns. Game 2 was short: Looting, pitch Borbor and TTB. I went Surgical TTB into Snap Surgical on Borbor to land a turn 3 Mentor to beat him down. Won on turn 5.
Some games vs Affinity (all preboard):
He had a god draw with a boatload of artefacts into a Plating + Etched Champion. I was able to establish a board through this, cause of the sheer amount of removal I had access too. In the end the board looked like this: Opp: Tapped out, tapped Etched Champ with Plating, Vault Skirge and Thopter untapped and ready to block, my side was 2 Homunculus, 1 Mentor Token, Mentor, he was at 18, I was at 3.
What happened is, I went Revival on Sleight (digs one deeper and a "free" prowess trigger), went down to 1 life, draw Sleight, cast Sleight see Ritual and Bolt. Take Bolt, bolt a blocker and attack for how much? Right, 15. One spell off to kill him :/
Died to Etched champion next turn.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Jace's Sanctum needs to be played to understand how good it is.
I scoffed at Sanctum for a long time, till I finally said "F-it" and gave it a shot.
It's really incredibly surprising how many games that card has won me.
That being said, It may just be better in a more midrangey/control shell, than an all-in UR mancer shell.
I can still remember, when you basically rolled your eyes about this card and just because I run it (and reported it) you had to test it
Oh for sure. I mean you made good points about it, but it's hard to see it's effectiveness until you actually play with it.
On that same token though, I remember you basically rolling your eyes at the Mancer/Homunculus plan in Ritual Gifts when I first showed the original UR list I was testing!
Been doing some Cockatrice testing lately, but just a few random games here and there when I had time. I haven't had enough free time to get a solid series in and do a mini report, but I am still playing. Work has been a lil hectic and I havent had the time I thought I would.
I have came to the conclusion Shreds of Sanity isn't playable though. It's a great card to finish the combo, but I somehow overlooked the fact that when you cast it, it gets exiled... So the entire point of having something more versatile than PIF is completely negated, because you literally can't play it outside the combo, or it's gone, and you won't be able to finish with it.
Hero of Bladehold is beast though. The opponent needs to deal with him immediately, or build a big enough board presence to prevent its offense. Either way once she resolves, the opponent needs to do something about it, which at the very least slows down their own gameplan, and at its best just runs away with games. Been playing Geist also and it's been a little more hit or miss. It either ends the game, or sits there unable to attack through your opponents creature.
Anyone else still doing any testing?? I know I can't be the only one still pushing this.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Yes, I was sceptical towards the Mancer effects and if I would play the RUG version I would play the Channel + IV package (+ a changed cantrip setup to find those cards) to have a none Mancer reliant Storm win con. However, as long as I'm running the URw version, there is nothing I can do to find a none Mancer win con but when I have already a ton of mana.
Need to test Hero, I like Geist cause of the Tron match-up, besides a Oblivion Stone or Ugin there is no out vs him.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Reasons why I wouldnt play sanctum in the all-in UR version:
-It is slow and clunky.
-Baral is cheaper.
The point of the all-in version is to be fast. kill your opponent before he kills you, offense is the best defense, etc.
In that version, there is no way you can afford to spend turn 4 (or turn 3 and a ritual) playing a sanctum. You want to kill on turn 3 or 4, not tap out mainphase leaving yourself completely vulnerable to whatever the opponent is up to.
We call it all in, but it's not really all in. If that was the objective of the deck, we wouldn't be playing bolts and countermagic main deck. The deck's true objective is to be faster than the splash versions. We throw away alternative win conditions and focus on the combo, that's why we call it "all in". If you want a goldfish deck, you should play pyromancer ascension storm. Goldfishing with UR gifts storm would require a turn 2 tap out to mancer and hope it to live the next two turns, which is even more easily disrupted than ascension storm.
Also, about jace's sanctum, the scry 1 part for UR mancer is not really that helpful, since we are tutoring with gifts we don't really need it. It would only help if you are digging for a gifts, but if you played a sanctum and does not have a gifts in hand this late in the game you are already screwed anyway. Its just the fact that it's a cmc4 enchantment mancer that's interesting, really. Though cmc4 is also very painful, maybe we should bring it in the sideboard instead. Aether Revolt just arrived in MTGO. I'll grab my playset of Barals and play as soon as I can and share the results.
The green for channel the suns seems super interesting now that I look at it though.
You will need:
A mancer effect 4G mana
Channel the Suns
Bring to light
use 2G mana for channel, get rainbow mana, play bring to light for 4 mana floating red, bring to light finds gifts, cast gifts for ritual ritual manamorphose past in flames, and then if the opponent gives you manamorphose and past in flames (worse pile) use the red mana to manamorphose into RR, cast pif for 2Rand have R floating, with rituals and manamorphose and gifts, and even channel-bring to light in the yard, so proceed to win any way you like.
With a manamorphose instead of channel the Suns, getting to 4 colors of mana + R seems quite possible too, and then you bring to light gifts to go off again.
And then just having access to bring to light would give the deck more ways to find whatever it needs if something goes wrong.
What do you think?
Bring to Light sounds interesting in that corner case where you have it in hand with Mancer and Channel. But then it's just a more expensive Gifts, when you could run more Gifts and/or Merchant Scrolls to find Gifts. Because outside of that case you described, BtL doesn't really help much...
I've been theory-crafting UR/URg Storm and following this thread. I like the idea of at least splashing green for 1 Channel. It gives you an alternate way to combo and a more powerful "normal" Gifts pile: Ritual, Ritual, Channel (instead of Manamorphose), PiF. This wins with EOT Gifts, untap and play 5th land, Electromancer, and combo off (if you have a Manamorphose in the graveyard). Manamorphose instead of Channel requires 6 lands if you just have Mancer and Gifts in hand and Manamorphose in the graveyard.
I've been trying to come up with a combo that can win with minimal cards other than Gifts, since you will often have your hand stripped and be trying to win with just a few cards. I've determined you can win with:
- 6 lands if you have Ritual in hand (Gifts for Ritual, Channel, Increasing Vengeance, PiF)
- 7 lands if you have 2 Ritual and Manamorphose in the graveyard (Gifts for the same cards)
- 8 lands if you just have 2 Ritual in the graveyard (same Gifts pile)
I just feel like we can't count on having Ritual in hand against all the BGx decks running around, so we need to find a way to win without it. Same goes for keeping a Mancer on the table that dies to Bolt, Push, Path, etc.
I've been toying with a larger-than-60-card build. My thought is that in a Gifts-centered version of combo, where you disrupt the opponent until you can assemble the Gifts kill, you never really want to draw cards like Ritual, Channel, or PiF, but you need them in the deck to find with Gifts. So, to minimize the chance of drawing these and still have them available, you can run the minimum number needed (1 or 2 each) plus more than 60 cards. You will be decreasing your chances of drawing Gifts, too, but you can fix that with Merchant Scroll.
So, my thoughts are centered around 2 different ways to take the deck:
1) non-interactive all-in UR combo - gets better with Baral but worse with Fatal Push since it relies on having one in play.
2) interactive deck that combo-kills with Gifts when it has enough resources.
So far, #2 is not working all THAT well, but it does work some of the time and can really surprise your opponent.
If I run #1, I feel like you need a transformational sideboard with stuff like Thing in the Ice, maybe Delver, maybe Chandra, etc. because you really can't beat graveyard hate.
if they give you channel and pif, you play electromancer, and with 3 mana channel, then pif, you have 2 floating but no red, so unless you already have a morphose in the gy, it wont work.
But if you gifts for ritual, channel, morphose, PiF, then you do get to go off same as normal, and you also get rainbow mana if you want it.
Drastic revelation?
You're right. I misread my spreadsheet. You need a Manamorphose in the graveyard to win with 5 lands because you need to generate red mana. I should have looked more closely at my notes :-P I have lots of various combinations of "in hand", "in graveyard", and "number of lands" that lead to combo kills. Without Channel in the deck, you need 5 mana after playing Electromancer to win. Or, 4 mana and a Manamorphose in the graveyard.
With Channel in the deck, you drop that down to 4 mana post-Electromancer or 3 mana plus Manamorphose in the graveyard. So it seems worth a slight green splash.
BtL is a great card, but you didn't describe anything that you can't accomplish simply with Gifts Ungiven. Other than Gifts, what card will BtL be searching for? And what happens when you don't have Channel or Manamorphose to go with it? Then you're paying 5 for a 3-cost card, none of which are that great. Flashback Channel-BtL is great, but when is that going to win you a game that flashback Ritual/Channel/Manamorphose then Gifts isn't going to win?
My typical Gifts wins involve:
1) EOT Gifts for all the rituals
2) Play Electromancer
3) Play rituals
4) Play PiF
5) Flashback Gifts for Grapeshot, Remand, Noxious, and either ritual or Snapcaster (depending on if I have PiF to flashback or not)
6) Noxious the Grapeshot
7) Manamorphose to draw Grapeshot
8) Remand original Grapeshot
9) Grapeshot
You add up to a ton of storm with very few cards in hand to start.
With Channel in the deck, you drop that down to 4 mana post-Electromancer
Electromancer + normal gifts + 3 mana already leads to being able to casting pif with r floating to flashback your graveyard though.
Here's how I see this play out if you have 5 lands, Gifts, and Electromancer in hand.
EOT Gifts for Ritual, Ritual, Manamorphose, PiF. They give you Manamorphose and PiF. If they screw up and give you Rituals, then you need less mana to combo.
Tap lands for UURRR
Mancer [URR left]
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Past in Flames [R]
Flashback Ritual [RRR]
Flashback Ritual [RRRRR]
Flashback Manamorphose, making UU [UURRRR]
Flashback Gifts for _______ [URR]
What can you Gifts for here to win?
Option 1, the kill: Grapeshot, Remand, Manamorphose, Noxious Revival. They will give you Remand and Manamorphose.
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Flashback PiF [no mana left]
That doesn't work. You need 2 more mana to play Noxious targeting Grapeshot, flashback Manamorphose, cast Grapeshot, Remand it, cast Grapeshot.
Option 2, more rituals: Ritual, Ritual, Manamorphose, Gifts. They will give you Gifts and Manamorphose.
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Flashback PiF [no mana left]
That doesn't work. This loop loses you mana each time.
What am I missing?
If you have a graveyard loaded with Rituals and Manamorphose, then PiF wins you the game if you have 3 mana post-Mancer. But without those cards in hand or graveyard, you need more mana.
Hi! I had been playing around with gifts storm for awhile and personally think that u/r is probably the right choice. My current list (still in the works) provides a good mix between combo and control and seems to be doing well in most matchups. I run 6 mainboard counters with 3 being remand (because with baral timewalk + draw + loot is crazy for U) and it has made basically any control match a bye for me. My one rule of thumb for sideboard has been to add my echoing truth and 1-2 Warrens because I don't want an auto loss to grave hate or a leyline.
The two ways I've used gifts for the most part has been for: 2 ritual, manamorphose, and past in flames OR electromancer, baral, noxious revival, and whatever else you need.
No scalding tarns and blood moons just yet. I have them on paper, but not online right now.
I won't spam game reports, I think there is no need to do it. I'll just say that I won basically every matchup, with exception to hatebears. More on that later. I'll list stuff I think is important and propose changes.
About bolts. So, basically I think we don't need them. Most creatures can be ignored because our combo is faster than their beats. We basically let everything resolve and live unless it stops us from going off, and bolts very rarely helps doing that and they end up sitting on our hands doing nothing but stalling the game. In these situations, a cantrip would be better, since killing beaters gives both players time to play their game and find cards. I think we should move them to the sideboard, or throw them out completely in favor of echoing truth.
About lands. Right now I play 19 lands, and I've been having success with that although I feel like I flood a bit more than I should. While I do think making land drops are important, we rarely need more than 5. I suggest moving to 18 or 17 lands, since cantrips help us get those land drops done. Also, shaving those lands open up space for other important cards in the deck.
About scrolls. Merchants scrolls are becoming better and better the more I play them. The ability to search for countermagic, gifts or echoing truth is bonkers in this deck. I think we should find more blue instants to abuse. If we cut bolts, we can use echoing truth, negate or maybe even izzet charm as removal. I know skimped on removal, but there some corner cases I'll talk about right now:
About matchups. I could basically beat every deck hands down. Bant eldrazi, bogles, zoo, tron, weird brews and even BGx. The only matchup I couldn't win everytime I ran into was hatebears. The printing of Baral being what made this deck a real thing only proves how strong Thalia is against us. They have it turn 2, I get rekt even when I have/find an answer to it. Our whole deck revolves around generating mana, and their whole deck revolves around denying mana. They kill our lands, protect Thalias with flickerwisp, exile our combo pieces with thought-knot seers or surgical extractions... It's a nightmare! Rightnow I just bring anger, echoing truth, bolt and empty the warrens but it seems like not enough. I thought about having blue removal like charm and electrolyze to tutor up with merchant scroll a possibility, but it's way too ineffective to deal with Thalia. Bouncing her not always helps, since they can always play it again. Ideas?
More about matchups. A card that was rarely a problem to ascension storm is leyline of sanctity. If ascension is turned on, we can just keep churning and digging and we can eventually find echoing truth, or either we board grapeshot out in favor of empty the warrens and outright ignore it. With gifts storm, it's a completely different situation. We can't churn through our libraries like ascension can, and our main way to find cards (gifts ungiven) targets our opponent. The only answer we have to it is echoing truth or empty the warrens with no gifts setup. I know, I'm not saying it's hard to deal with it, but when they pair it with more hate, such as grafdigger's cage, rest in peace, thalia or even more leylines, one echoing truth is hardly enough. I suggest playing more spell pierces and echoing truths, and scroll also shines very well here. We can also outright ignore it with empty the warrens, which brings us to our next point.
About empty the warrens. I think I don't understood the point of this card very well in this deck, at least in the maindeck. Older lists used to play it maindeck together with grapeshot, and James Zornes played it on a GP during eldrazi winter. In my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong, please), this card is used when we don't get the other combo pieces, since merely chaining rituals and morphoses and cantrips into empty the warrens for 4~5 copies is usually enough to end the game in 2 or 3 turns. But when we have gifts, it's completely useless! I mean, when we cast gifts we have zero chance of fizzling, so we go for grapeshot at their face all the time. So if we are to use it on the sideboard, when do we bring it in and what do we take out? If we are to set it up with gifts, we are better off using grapeshot, not empty the warrens. So if we board them in to rely on it, we should totally bring gifts out. How does that work? I need enlightenment.
That's all for now. I'll cut bolts and a few lands in favor of spell pierces and scrolls and come back here after some playing.
@2shotobby: I like your list. Shows much of what I was talking about on this post. I'm curious on your Desperate Ravings. Is it worth even though you might discard gifts or mancers with it?
There isn't much Modern in my area so I haven't been able to actually play against any opponents, so I've been focusing on actually learning how to play the deck. What I have been using to learn is similar to eldskald's list, with a few changes that come from literally playing against 0 people.
I have no idea how effective removal and disruption are because I have no experience. Bolts feel dead to me if you're not killing something that stops you from winning, and I'm not sure whether Spell Pierce being a soft counter or Swan Song putting a clock on you is more dangerous. I felt like either one could be pretty bad when you sputter out, but I'm liking the idea of Swan Song because you can make your own Wind Drake by countering a Ritual and being a hard counter seems like a better place to be in general but I really want spells to actually be countered if I'm playing Baral.
Turn 3 wins are more possible than I would have anticipated, but other than that the Rituals don't do anything, so I understand the reason for not playing the full sets of either one. It has helped me see how well Electromancer + Gifts is basically a two card combo since I felt like I had some hands filled with do-nothing Rituals that could still win the game so I'm understanding that just running your Manamorphoses out as free spells isn't too bad, etc.; rituals have helped me win on turn 3 even without drawing a third land, but I wish I just had more cantrips to hit my lands instead. Basically, I'm not used to Modern variance...I feel like I keep alternating between being super flooded and having no lands at all. I like the idea of going down to 18 lands if there is a good cantrip worth putting in the deck to take the spot of the extra rituals and the land. Noxious Revival for fetchlands has come up a few times so I'm less hesitant to actually have the card in the deck.
Also, Baral Remanding your own spells to cantrip feels pretty good. I don't have enough experience to know if that warrants playing the 4th Remand because I couldn't tell you how right it is to hold up Remand mana when you're playing the card as intended.
I don't know about Empty the Warrens yet, but I feel like this deck is playing it because you aren't getting much done if you don't find a Gifts so it's just something extra you can draw to not be as dependent on finding Gifts.
Update. I think I figured Empty the Warrens out. In a creature heavy match up against, you can cut gifts ungiven and some stuff for empty the warrens, bolts and anger of the gods if you fear you will get hated. I tried this and it worked out pretty good. In fact, I could finally beat Thalia with this strategy!
This person has 5-0 recent leagues with this list. It's really full all in, no countermagic, bolts or scroll. The archetype is appearing on mtggoldfish currently at 0.89% (it's called UR), together with merfolks, elves, UR prowess, lantern control and grixis delver. That's incredible! People are noticing that the recent printings and shifts against super linear strategies are doing miracles to this deck. I should probably try a league someday! I'm just short of tickets to go in, but that'll change soon.
Not really though. UR Storm, even with Gifts, is all in, with maxed Ritual and zero interaction.
Ritual Gifts takes a more calculated approach running interaction, more versatility, and uses Gifts to set up the combo, rather than just pumping tons of Rituals into it.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Not really though. UR Storm, even with Gifts, is all in, with maxed Ritual and zero interaction.
Ritual Gifts takes a more calculated approach running interaction, more versatility, and uses Gifts to set up the combo, rather than just pumping tons of Rituals into it.
Hey there!
I've been a long time lurker in this thread, even playing one of the sample lists on untap.in a few years ago. I haven't been keeping up with this deck so with what Lord Hazanko said in mind, is the combo-control iteration of this deck still alive, and if so what is it running/doing nowadays?
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I don't always play modern, but when I do, I play Grixis. Or some random combo deck I picked up. Or tron. Or Taking Turns. Or...
In general, Ritual Gifts moved away from the control + combo spectrum towards a tempo + combo one (think about RUG Twin basically), since at least for me the control version were to clunky and slow in the old and partly current metagame.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Ritual Gifts showed up this past weekend. I got the last couple of cards I needed for my SB last night. Storm decks have always been fun to goldfish, but this one is definitely involved.
For the Mentor version I would skip it, if you want to go the 4c Control/value line, you want it to have the self fueling Gifts piles without the need for a Mancer effect.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
For the Mentor version I would skip it, if you want to go the 4c Control/value line, you want it to have the self fueling Gifts piles without the need for a Mancer effect.
Greetings,
Kathal
Less creatures sounds good. I would like the combo to take as few slots as possible. So not needing mancers sounds better to me.
7 2 Mana Mancer, 1 Sanctum
9 Rituals (3 from each)
8 1 Mana Cantrips
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Remand
2 Spell Pierce/Dispel/Spell Snare
1 Echoing Truth
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Gifts
1 Revival
19 lands
2 flex spots (either more cantrips, a Clique or more interaction)
The one mana counter spells are better here, since they allow you to play cantrip into counter on turn two, or when you go T4 Mancer into cantrip into counter back up. Would run probably run something long Swan Song or similar in this shell. Only 3 Gifts, cause you want to play with Scroll to have a tutor for the Echoing Truth (you can play also two scrolls btw). Fatal Push is annoying, but also a reason to run more 1 mana counter.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I do like Sanctum for the GBx matchups but it is going to be a brick some amount of the time so I will have it in SB to start.
I am planning to get some live games in next Wednesday/Thursday once Aether Revolt is released so I will update the thread with the relevant data.
I scoffed at Sanctum for a long time, till I finally said "F-it" and gave it a shot.
It's really incredibly surprising how many games that card has won me.
That being said, It may just be better in a more midrangey/control shell, than an all-in UR mancer shell.
Spirits
Run Sanctum as a one off main, before you move it in the SB, where it doesn't belong (to low impact). Also, running 4 Remands is to much, even the more controlling shells only run 3 copies. I would even go down to 2 copies in the UR shell (as I suggested) and run more one mana counters, which give you access way better sequencing. Also, you really need removal, there was a reason, why the classic Storm list sucked nowadays.
I can still remember, when you basically rolled your eyes about this card and just because I run it (and reported it) you had to test it
The reason, why I would play Sanctum even in the UR All-in version:
- Yes, it is clunky (that is also a reason, why you should only play with 3 Gifts, if you want to play more, run Scrolls) but 90% of the decks cannot handle it. This is even more important now, with the print of Fatal Push, which makes the two mana Mancer effects more vulnerable.
- It allows natural "storming" without Gifts. The amount of games I just won by chaining spells together, scrying to the cards I need is just ridiculous. Heck, today again I won a game solely because of the lack of removal for that card while I went through my library to find that PiF/Gifts to win on the spot.
Mini report:
Played three rounds today (had to leave early, cause I have to prep stuff for tomorrow) with the same list as usual (still with Probes). SB was different, was running a one off Geist and Clique cause 5 drops suck and a filled the rest with random good stuff (counters, 4th Path, Extraction, Wear/Tear, Disenchant, Echoing Truth,...).
Round 1 vs Affinity 2-0:
Game 1 he mulled to 4 and had a decent hand. However, I had the turn 5 kill of an Mentor. Game 2 was harsh one, since he played something along two Signal Pest, 3 0 drops, and a Overseer. Since I had 2 Paths, a Snappy and a Bolt I was able to deal with the biggest threats. I went with an upkeep Gifts into grabbing the standard pile (had Homunculus + Sanctum in play). He gave me Ritual + Morphose. Than, before the draw step be Galvanic Blasted me, I was on 4 life. I went Ritual, scry 1, land, and bot. Morphose, scry 1, Mentor, nope, don't need you. Draw of Morphose: Blessed Alliance.
One of Blessed Alliance saved my butt here and I won the next turn with a flashbacked PiF.
Round 2 vs Mono U Tron 1-2:
Game 1 I kept a 7 card hand with one land (Sacred Foundry) and two Probes on the draw but failed to draw a land over 4 consecutive turns. When I found it, the Tron player was able to Mindslaver me out. Game 2 was a steamroll from my side. Turn 2 Homunculus, he couldn't handle him into a turn 4 win, since he tapped out on his turn 3 for a Wurmcoil Engine. Game 3 I mulled down to 5, kept a mediocre hand with only one land and no cantrips but was able to draw gas from the top. My opponent played Treasure Mage into Solemn into another Solemn and went for beatdown. He got me down to 1 life with his last attack (trading with Clique) and was tapped out. I started to combo without a Gifts but with a PiF, but failed to find anything useful with the flashback cantrips. Was a close one (would have needed to dig like 4 more cards to find the Grapeshot to win that turn).
Round 3 vs Griselbanned (Shoal version) 2-0
Game 1 he mulled down to 5, failed to find a land for 4 turns, even though he casted two Lootings of SSGs. I sticked a Mentor and he closed the game out within 3 turns. Game 2 was short: Looting, pitch Borbor and TTB. I went Surgical TTB into Snap Surgical on Borbor to land a turn 3 Mentor to beat him down. Won on turn 5.
Some games vs Affinity (all preboard):
He had a god draw with a boatload of artefacts into a Plating + Etched Champion. I was able to establish a board through this, cause of the sheer amount of removal I had access too. In the end the board looked like this: Opp: Tapped out, tapped Etched Champ with Plating, Vault Skirge and Thopter untapped and ready to block, my side was 2 Homunculus, 1 Mentor Token, Mentor, he was at 18, I was at 3.
What happened is, I went Revival on Sleight (digs one deeper and a "free" prowess trigger), went down to 1 life, draw Sleight, cast Sleight see Ritual and Bolt. Take Bolt, bolt a blocker and attack for how much? Right, 15. One spell off to kill him :/
Died to Etched champion next turn.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Oh for sure. I mean you made good points about it, but it's hard to see it's effectiveness until you actually play with it.
On that same token though, I remember you basically rolling your eyes at the Mancer/Homunculus plan in Ritual Gifts when I first showed the original UR list I was testing!
Been doing some Cockatrice testing lately, but just a few random games here and there when I had time. I haven't had enough free time to get a solid series in and do a mini report, but I am still playing. Work has been a lil hectic and I havent had the time I thought I would.
I have came to the conclusion Shreds of Sanity isn't playable though. It's a great card to finish the combo, but I somehow overlooked the fact that when you cast it, it gets exiled... So the entire point of having something more versatile than PIF is completely negated, because you literally can't play it outside the combo, or it's gone, and you won't be able to finish with it.
Hero of Bladehold is beast though. The opponent needs to deal with him immediately, or build a big enough board presence to prevent its offense. Either way once she resolves, the opponent needs to do something about it, which at the very least slows down their own gameplan, and at its best just runs away with games. Been playing Geist also and it's been a little more hit or miss. It either ends the game, or sits there unable to attack through your opponents creature.
Anyone else still doing any testing?? I know I can't be the only one still pushing this.
Need to test Hero, I like Geist cause of the Tron match-up, besides a Oblivion Stone or Ugin there is no out vs him.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
We call it all in, but it's not really all in. If that was the objective of the deck, we wouldn't be playing bolts and countermagic main deck. The deck's true objective is to be faster than the splash versions. We throw away alternative win conditions and focus on the combo, that's why we call it "all in". If you want a goldfish deck, you should play pyromancer ascension storm. Goldfishing with UR gifts storm would require a turn 2 tap out to mancer and hope it to live the next two turns, which is even more easily disrupted than ascension storm.
Also, about jace's sanctum, the scry 1 part for UR mancer is not really that helpful, since we are tutoring with gifts we don't really need it. It would only help if you are digging for a gifts, but if you played a sanctum and does not have a gifts in hand this late in the game you are already screwed anyway. Its just the fact that it's a cmc4 enchantment mancer that's interesting, really. Though cmc4 is also very painful, maybe we should bring it in the sideboard instead. Aether Revolt just arrived in MTGO. I'll grab my playset of Barals and play as soon as I can and share the results.
Bring to Light sounds interesting in that corner case where you have it in hand with Mancer and Channel. But then it's just a more expensive Gifts, when you could run more Gifts and/or Merchant Scrolls to find Gifts. Because outside of that case you described, BtL doesn't really help much...
I've been theory-crafting UR/URg Storm and following this thread. I like the idea of at least splashing green for 1 Channel. It gives you an alternate way to combo and a more powerful "normal" Gifts pile: Ritual, Ritual, Channel (instead of Manamorphose), PiF. This wins with EOT Gifts, untap and play 5th land, Electromancer, and combo off (if you have a Manamorphose in the graveyard). Manamorphose instead of Channel requires 6 lands if you just have Mancer and Gifts in hand and Manamorphose in the graveyard.
I've been trying to come up with a combo that can win with minimal cards other than Gifts, since you will often have your hand stripped and be trying to win with just a few cards. I've determined you can win with:
- 6 lands if you have Ritual in hand (Gifts for Ritual, Channel, Increasing Vengeance, PiF)
- 7 lands if you have 2 Ritual and Manamorphose in the graveyard (Gifts for the same cards)
- 8 lands if you just have 2 Ritual in the graveyard (same Gifts pile)
I just feel like we can't count on having Ritual in hand against all the BGx decks running around, so we need to find a way to win without it. Same goes for keeping a Mancer on the table that dies to Bolt, Push, Path, etc.
I've been toying with a larger-than-60-card build. My thought is that in a Gifts-centered version of combo, where you disrupt the opponent until you can assemble the Gifts kill, you never really want to draw cards like Ritual, Channel, or PiF, but you need them in the deck to find with Gifts. So, to minimize the chance of drawing these and still have them available, you can run the minimum number needed (1 or 2 each) plus more than 60 cards. You will be decreasing your chances of drawing Gifts, too, but you can fix that with Merchant Scroll.
So, my thoughts are centered around 2 different ways to take the deck:
1) non-interactive all-in UR combo - gets better with Baral but worse with Fatal Push since it relies on having one in play.
2) interactive deck that combo-kills with Gifts when it has enough resources.
So far, #2 is not working all THAT well, but it does work some of the time and can really surprise your opponent.
If I run #1, I feel like you need a transformational sideboard with stuff like Thing in the Ice, maybe Delver, maybe Chandra, etc. because you really can't beat graveyard hate.
You're right. I misread my spreadsheet. You need a Manamorphose in the graveyard to win with 5 lands because you need to generate red mana. I should have looked more closely at my notes :-P I have lots of various combinations of "in hand", "in graveyard", and "number of lands" that lead to combo kills. Without Channel in the deck, you need 5 mana after playing Electromancer to win. Or, 4 mana and a Manamorphose in the graveyard.
With Channel in the deck, you drop that down to 4 mana post-Electromancer or 3 mana plus Manamorphose in the graveyard. So it seems worth a slight green splash.
BtL is a great card, but you didn't describe anything that you can't accomplish simply with Gifts Ungiven. Other than Gifts, what card will BtL be searching for? And what happens when you don't have Channel or Manamorphose to go with it? Then you're paying 5 for a 3-cost card, none of which are that great. Flashback Channel-BtL is great, but when is that going to win you a game that flashback Ritual/Channel/Manamorphose then Gifts isn't going to win?
My typical Gifts wins involve:
1) EOT Gifts for all the rituals
2) Play Electromancer
3) Play rituals
4) Play PiF
5) Flashback Gifts for Grapeshot, Remand, Noxious, and either ritual or Snapcaster (depending on if I have PiF to flashback or not)
6) Noxious the Grapeshot
7) Manamorphose to draw Grapeshot
8) Remand original Grapeshot
9) Grapeshot
You add up to a ton of storm with very few cards in hand to start.
Here's how I see this play out if you have 5 lands, Gifts, and Electromancer in hand.
EOT Gifts for Ritual, Ritual, Manamorphose, PiF. They give you Manamorphose and PiF. If they screw up and give you Rituals, then you need less mana to combo.
Tap lands for UURRR
Mancer [URR left]
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Past in Flames [R]
Flashback Ritual [RRR]
Flashback Ritual [RRRRR]
Flashback Manamorphose, making UU [UURRRR]
Flashback Gifts for _______ [URR]
What can you Gifts for here to win?
Option 1, the kill: Grapeshot, Remand, Manamorphose, Noxious Revival. They will give you Remand and Manamorphose.
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Flashback PiF [no mana left]
That doesn't work. You need 2 more mana to play Noxious targeting Grapeshot, flashback Manamorphose, cast Grapeshot, Remand it, cast Grapeshot.
Option 2, more rituals: Ritual, Ritual, Manamorphose, Gifts. They will give you Gifts and Manamorphose.
Manamorphose, making UR [UURR]
Flashback PiF [no mana left]
That doesn't work. This loop loses you mana each time.
What am I missing?
If you have a graveyard loaded with Rituals and Manamorphose, then PiF wins you the game if you have 3 mana post-Mancer. But without those cards in hand or graveyard, you need more mana.
The two ways I've used gifts for the most part has been for: 2 ritual, manamorphose, and past in flames OR electromancer, baral, noxious revival, and whatever else you need.
Current list I'm running: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/556273
2 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Shivan Reef
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Goblin Electromancer
4 Baral, Chief of Compliance
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Manamorphose
3 Desperate Ritual
3 Pyretic Ritual
2 Past in Flames
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Negate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Jace's Sanctum
2 Thing in the Ice
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Vandalblast
1 Shatterstorm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ravenous Trap
No scalding tarns and blood moons just yet. I have them on paper, but not online right now.
I won't spam game reports, I think there is no need to do it. I'll just say that I won basically every matchup, with exception to hatebears. More on that later. I'll list stuff I think is important and propose changes.
That's all for now. I'll cut bolts and a few lands in favor of spell pierces and scrolls and come back here after some playing.
@2shotobby: I like your list. Shows much of what I was talking about on this post. I'm curious on your Desperate Ravings. Is it worth even though you might discard gifts or mancers with it?
-3 Bolt, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Pyretic, 1 Desperate Ritual, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Swan Song, 1 Merchant Scroll
I have no idea how effective removal and disruption are because I have no experience. Bolts feel dead to me if you're not killing something that stops you from winning, and I'm not sure whether Spell Pierce being a soft counter or Swan Song putting a clock on you is more dangerous. I felt like either one could be pretty bad when you sputter out, but I'm liking the idea of Swan Song because you can make your own Wind Drake by countering a Ritual and being a hard counter seems like a better place to be in general but I really want spells to actually be countered if I'm playing Baral.
Turn 3 wins are more possible than I would have anticipated, but other than that the Rituals don't do anything, so I understand the reason for not playing the full sets of either one. It has helped me see how well Electromancer + Gifts is basically a two card combo since I felt like I had some hands filled with do-nothing Rituals that could still win the game so I'm understanding that just running your Manamorphoses out as free spells isn't too bad, etc.; rituals have helped me win on turn 3 even without drawing a third land, but I wish I just had more cantrips to hit my lands instead. Basically, I'm not used to Modern variance...I feel like I keep alternating between being super flooded and having no lands at all. I like the idea of going down to 18 lands if there is a good cantrip worth putting in the deck to take the spot of the extra rituals and the land. Noxious Revival for fetchlands has come up a few times so I'm less hesitant to actually have the card in the deck.
Also, Baral Remanding your own spells to cantrip feels pretty good. I don't have enough experience to know if that warrants playing the 4th Remand because I couldn't tell you how right it is to hold up Remand mana when you're playing the card as intended.
I don't know about Empty the Warrens yet, but I feel like this deck is playing it because you aren't getting much done if you don't find a Gifts so it's just something extra you can draw to not be as dependent on finding Gifts.
Anyway, have you guys seen this? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/558717#online
This person has 5-0 recent leagues with this list. It's really full all in, no countermagic, bolts or scroll. The archetype is appearing on mtggoldfish currently at 0.89% (it's called UR), together with merfolks, elves, UR prowess, lantern control and grixis delver. That's incredible! People are noticing that the recent printings and shifts against super linear strategies are doing miracles to this deck. I should probably try a league someday! I'm just short of tickets to go in, but that'll change soon.
The thread for UR Storm can be found here:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/564710-ur-storm
Not really though. UR Storm, even with Gifts, is all in, with maxed Ritual and zero interaction.
Ritual Gifts takes a more calculated approach running interaction, more versatility, and uses Gifts to set up the combo, rather than just pumping tons of Rituals into it.
Hey there!
I've been a long time lurker in this thread, even playing one of the sample lists on untap.in a few years ago. I haven't been keeping up with this deck so with what Lord Hazanko said in mind, is the combo-control iteration of this deck still alive, and if so what is it running/doing nowadays?
In general, Ritual Gifts moved away from the control + combo spectrum towards a tempo + combo one (think about RUG Twin basically), since at least for me the control version were to clunky and slow in the old and partly current metagame.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
My current list looks like this:
3x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Shivan Reef
4x Spirebluff Canal
3x Steam Vents
2x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures
3x Baral, Chief of Compliance
4x Goblin Electromancer
Spells
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Manamorphose
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Remand
2x Grapeshot
1x Epic Experiment
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Past in Flames
4x Gifts Ungiven
2x Empty the Warrens
2x Blood Moon
2x Echoing Truth
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dispel
1x Vandalblast
2x Defense Grid
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
For the Mentor version I would skip it, if you want to go the 4c Control/value line, you want it to have the self fueling Gifts piles without the need for a Mancer effect.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Less creatures sounds good. I would like the combo to take as few slots as possible. So not needing mancers sounds better to me.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)