I didn't think, that the store would have those Researchs, but since he had, I just went ahead and slammed those ^^
Round 1 vs Grixis Delver
Game 1: I had a good start with cantrips into Mentor with Protection. However, since he had Delver (only Path as removal, which I was forced to use) into removal + Tasigur into triple Bolt I was kinda dead before I was able to set-up a Gifts chain ftw
Game 2: I got stuck on mana + he had a really nice draw again. When I had 4 lands in play + a Homunculus (not able to flip) he went EoT Kolaghans, return Snappy, let me discard. I went Gifts in response, he went counter, I went Spell Pierce. I was able to grab 4 cards, however, he untapped, played Collective Brutality (discard, kill Homunculus) and Tasigur. Since I drew all 3 Arid Mesa I was low on life again and a Bolt into Snap Bolt into Tasigur activation sealed the deal before I was able to utilise the Gifts I resolved earlier.
Round 2 vs Mono Red Lantern Control ft. 4 Bolts, 4 Galvanic Bolts and more burn
Game 1 was a nightmare. He had surgical in hand (saw it from a Probe) and since he had so much removal I was unable to stick any beater. It didn't help, that I was stuck on 4 lands for a rather long time, so Mentor into a single spell was the best thing I could do.
However, he let me draw lands and through a really weird turn I was able to both draw and cast a Gifts, setting up another Gifts into kill within 3 turns. The only problem was, he drew 12 points of burn within 2 turns, which forced me to Gifts for a counter pile (was at 11 but need that Noxious Revival to win) and hope, that he misplays. He did, since he both gave me the false pile and sequenced his burn in a wrong fashion, which bought me enough time to win that game. Totally not deserved.
Game 2 I was able to stick a Homunculus, flip him, attack once, play a second one and start to chain Gifts (after he went mill -> fetch, reveal another Gifts -> crack Lantern -> draw Gifts) for the win.
By the way, did I mention, that casting a Gifts for 2 mana is kinda broken?
Round 3 vs Infect
Game 1 was a slugfest. The amount of interaction from both sides were insane. On one turn I went PiF into flashback Bolts/Paths/Spell Pierce cause otherwise he would have killed me next turn. However, after this "value" PiF I was able to close the game out with a Jace's Sanctum cantripping another Gifts into my hand and than go off by casting 3 Bolts + Grapeshot.
Game 2 was a, yeah, what was it?
My hand was: Mountain, Glacial Fortress, Homunculus, 2 Bolts, 1 Path, 1 Spell Pierce
You see the problem?
He drew more mana than me and thus was able to kill me with an Inkmoth Nexus (best card vs that hand, since I do not have two turns to interact with it but only one).
Game 3 was a classic Homunculus game. Turn 2 Humunculus, turn 4 flip into Gifts for removal and do some beatdowns. Since he forgot about the Mana reduction ability from the flipped Homunculus he went all in with a Inkmoth, going Pendalhaven, attack (trigger Exalted), in response Bolt, he in response Become Immense, I Remand for 1 mana, he Spell Pierce but I had 2 mana left.
Yes, that Bolt was tricky, but since I knew, that I would die to a Become Immense + Dispel either way, I went for it.
Round 4 vs Meerfolk
Game 1 I had the turn 4 kill through two counters (Spell Pierce, the 1 mana creature)
If you want to do the brain exercise on how I did it, go ahead ^^
Game 2 was an interesting one. He had a Vial into a boatload of Meerfolk. I had the removal to match but he got he down to 6 life in that process also because of a Deprive + Dispel on the two Gifts I attempted to cast (second one was a Snapcaster attempt).
On one turn I went for the Docent of Perfection fully aware, that either a Lord or Master of Wave from the Vial would kill me. He had the Master and so I died.
I made a mistake on turn 1 with the Serum Visions. I should have kept the PiF on top and draw it, since it would have allowed me to do a removal PiF later in the game.
Game 3 was not that interesting, since he was stuck on 1 land for several turns and I had a double Homunculus draw.
Thoughts about the list: Homunculus was the second best card in the whole deck (besides Gifts of course). What the card offers is insane, especially when you go untap, tap for mana, transform, cast Gifts with the 1 floating. Also, the 3/4 body with Prowess is just huge. One spell a turn is nothing unusual at all, so he becomes Goyf stats, two are the norm (but in the post board games) which results into 5 damage already.
Besides this, at least the main deck was solid. I do not know, how the transformational board is, since I only did it once (vs Grixis Delver) but even there I think, that sticking to the combo plan is better.
So, moar testing required, but the list makes a ton of fun and the brute strength is from time to time pretty surprising.
Thoughts?
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just my personal opinion, since I have played Solar Flare for quite some time in Modern (Esper Gifts with the reanimate package):
I would rather have access to a Gifts based combo, which just closes the game for me out.
Yes, a Gifts into Unburial Rites for Norn is great vs Infect, Affinity and co, but why not win on the spot instead? Why not grab the 4 combo cards and go the Mana Seism route? Furthermore, Removal, especially Path to Exile, Terminate, Lilliana of the Veil or other random cards (Cryptic Command, Vapor Snag, Blessed Alliance, Edict effects,...) are pretty darn good vs the Reanimator package.
That is the reason, why I stopped playing Solar Flare, it is a great and cool deck, but the actual Unburial Rites combo is rather meh. The best creature you can grab is Elesh Norn vs Aggro and Griselbrand vs everything else, since he at least draws you cards before he dies.
As for methods for brewing (in general) I'm doing this:
a) What is my goal (so do I want to play card X and try to enable it (Gifts, Possible Storm, Griselbrand,...), do I want to create a specific Archetype, do I want to have access to a transformal SB, which colours do I want to run,...)
b) After you got your goal roughly down (like Gifts list with Unburial Rites package + maybe a transformal SB) you have to think, in what colours does it fit (if you have not chosen the colour based route). In this step, you have to think, what kind of deck exactly you want to run. For example, Gifts + Rites pushes you kinda already in the Uwb colours. Hence, it would fit nicely in a Esper deck. However, since you realistically only need UW you can also "splash" the Rites package in a RUg deck for example. This is especially important, since it defines what kind of deck it will be. A RUG Control deck will hardly work, but if you replace G with B or W than you have suddenly access to some great control cards.
c) When you got that one down, you can start to build your deck with the package which you want to run in it's core.
It helps a lot, if you have access to a rough list before hand (as I had with the UR Mancer version). Some ideas, like the Mentor MD came from testing and some discussions with other non Combo players since I realised on how slim you can hold the combo package.
And than you have to do a lot of try and error to get to a somewhat working list. This is especially true, when you are brewing at combo or tempo decks. There, slight changes to the deck can change everything.
Hope, I could help you.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Love the development Kathal has made. Seems like a great direction to move into. Have you looked into Myth Realized at all? What do you think of that as a MD win condition? I was looking at Thing in the Ice, but it doesn't interact well with our Mancer effects.
Would it be completely insane to just splash green for Goyf, instead of white? White does give you access you some other powerful spells though beyond just another MD win con/threat. Reminds me of the old extended Pyromancer Ascension decks that splashed G for Goyf back in the day. Also worth noting though, is the synergy Mentor/ Myth have with the deck.
If we stick with white, what are your thought's on Spell Queller as a 1-2 of? Seems like it could fit all angles we're looking for, disruption, tempo, threat. But it is a tad expensive at 3 mana.
Nice, that you like the development (+ it is a little bit crazy, what happens, when somebody with a good combo understanding sits down to develop something, especially when there is an already decent list to go from ^^ )
Regarding Myth, there are two problems I have with that card:
a) It gets big IF you lay it turn one, but is still only a vanilla creature (no evasion/protection at all), later on it makes value PiFs a lot better (they are already great btw) but in-between those turns (when we have 4 lands vs 8-9 lands) it kinda is "dead". The only good aspect is, that you can pump it in the meantime
b) It is meh vs the removal, which are already annoying for us (Bolt, Decay and things like Path/Terminate). However, his is also true for other similar threats (be it Goyf (which is at least Bolt proof), Queller, Clique, Snapcater,...). However, the other possible threats are either very mana efficient (Goyf), have slapped value on them (Clique, Queller, Snapcaster,...) or can go wide (Mentor, Pyromancer, Docent of Perfection,...) and thus can play somewhat around removal spells.
Compared to the other threats, Myth is just cheap, nothing else. I would rather test other finishers before testing it btw.
Regarding Goyf, this was the first idea I had when brewing together the UWR Mentor/Mancer version. Goyf is cheaper than Mentor and is better in the faster match-ups, where Mentor is meh. However, the shift towards G instead of W leaves us without a decent removal spell (no Path/Condemn/Blessed Alliance or co) while the SB stays roughly similar (you get access to Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry, finisher like Garruk Relentless/Garruk, Primal Hunter (best planeswalker btw vs Midrange) or things like Sagu Mauler (every non Edict deck just dies to that card)). The only true benefit of Goyf is, that you can run Anger of the Gods again, which is huge. Goyf does not die to it (or should to say it this way) and a flipped Homunculus also survives the sweeper. Due to the Rituals we can also power it out on turn 2 from time to time (relevant vs some nutty Dredge draws).
To be honest, I would need to test it to give a proper answer, if the W splash is better than the G splash. Also, a G splash would enable me to run the Channel + IV package, which is takes less space but is less explosive (+ you lose a good threat in Homunculus).
Regarding Spell Queller, I looked at that card, but it is meh. It doesn't close the game out in a timely fashion and it would just "buy" us some time. Basically, it would make us more reliant on the Gifts combo than the current version, where the Gifts Combo and the Beatdown plan happens roughly the same amount of tims (sometimes it is a combination). Also @zeta390, I think you are overestimating the power of Queller, it is a good card, but not something a deck like this needs. I would rather play Geist of Saint Traft instead (which I currently play in my SB).
Regarding Path, I first would need to know, which card I want to cut for it :/ . Looking at the latest list (see report) either Condemn or Blessed Alliance (better with the creature package I have, especially when you can use it to untap Homunculus to generate mana) would make the cut. None instant speed none sweeper type of removal is not good currently (but Declaration in Stone, which is quite good vs Dredge but garbage vs the rest).
Some stuff I'm currently testing (or are on the: "needs to get tested" list):
- Geist of Saint Traft SB/MD beater
- 8 Removal spells MD
- Dispel MD
- Meddling Mage (SB)
- basic Plains MD + a change of the mana base (need to buy those 3 Scalding Tarns :/ )
- A different utility land in place of Desolated Lighthouse (I doubt, there is one, but you can dream ^^ )
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
In general I hope, that some other players would start testing the deck, since I will be hardly able to do any testing the whole January (way to many exams), so I could only continue testing in February/March (besides some Cocka testing).
Also, I just want to add something, a green splash (and thus Goyf instead of Mentor) would mean, that with some small changes we would be able to run Traverse in the deck, which would make landing land drops or tutoring creatures easier (grabbing the one off Snapcaster or post board the one off Keranos/Thragtusk/Sage Mauler sounds good). Only question would be, how to enable delirium consistently, which might be to difficult (lands, Instants and Sorcs are easier, but afterwards it gets iffy). Also, the question is, if this doesn't fall under the category of "to cute".
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This literally kills every hatebear, and almost every threat for 1 mana, with no drawback, and almost no set up.(Triggers on fetch crack).
Worth splashing black for?
Another insane idea that would require some dramatic changes, but wow.. Best removal printed in YEARS.
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Also, although Im suggesting other options, what I love about Mentor is just how well he synergizes with the deck. between, Morphose, Probe, Rituals, and a bunch of 1 mana cantrips, if he stays a live for a few turns he can overun games pretty easily.
I've been insanely busy these past few months, but things are finally easing up for me. Also my new work schedule finally opens up the option for local modern events, where as before I could only hit the Sunday legacy events. So hopefully I'll be able to join the fray with some local tourny reports soon. I've sort of been relegated to testing Modern on Cokatrice because of work, so i'm excited to play some paper modern.
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*EDIT* Honestly after really thinking about it, Fatal Push kind of scares me. BGx is EVEN BETTER against us now.....
Every time I'm thinking about a B splash, I want to play Dark Confidant
On a more serious note, yes, Fatal Push is insane (I mean, it has roughly the same powerlevel as Path and Bolt, which is already great), however, black doesn't really offer anything to us. I toyed around with a Black splash for Delve creatures (which are getting better with the print of Fatal push) and Terminate, but G would still be better cause of Mandrills and Goyf. Even than, I would prefer white over both colours, since it has Mentor, Path and great SB cards.
However, as I said earlier regarding Goyf, I need to test it to give a proper statement.
As for Docent, the big problem is, that he costs 5 mana which is a real issue I run into. Yes, he is more powerful than Mentor (cause dodges Bolt, Anger and Decay) while he a decent clock on it's own, the big problem is, he costs to much. Normally I'm hitting the 5th landdrop on turn 7 or 8, which is really late for something I want to play asap and chain spells into it. That is the nice thing about Mentor, if he sticks a turn, you can go bonkers with your spells and generate a huge army. For a Docent army you need a couple of turns ^^
Than again, I have played with Docent the last two events, need to test him more, but this is my first impression.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Yeah, I just came here to bring him up. Wow. Baral, Cheif of Compliance. He is very good for this deck. I think this definitely opens up some options.
Really interesting. Im trying to think of the best way to incorporate him into the deck.
Black could give us K Command, which brings back our Mancers, and could give us Goryo's Vengeance, as Baral is a legend. We could run a Grixis Control type shell with Jace's. These are some out of box thoughts though, just throwing different things out there.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Basically Kathal's recent direction. I wanted to get some solid testing in with it. The deck is very well thought out. Everything synergizes with everything else very very well. The Rituals support the Storm combo, but also support Voracious Reader, and Mentor. The cantrips suit is cheap and efficient, activates Homunculus, and also powers up our Prowess guys. Just everything works with each other in a way you might not realize when first glancing over the list.
My recent testing results weren't quite as positive as I was hoping, but some of my losses were due to misplays.(Definitely a deck that takes practice as there are so many out of box lines you can make) And some losses where just really bad luck. Anyway here's my recent results from my initial Cockatrice testing:
Green Devotion - 2/1
RG Tron 0/2
Ad Nauseam 0/2
RW Nahiri 2/0
BR Moon Control 2/1
Burn 0/2
Mardu Nahiri 2/0
Grixis Delver 1/2
The RG Tron player just had the absolute nuts both games, with t3 Tron into shenanigans both games. So that was no fun. I was 1 turn away from winning both Ad Nauseam games, but he top decked his other combo piece both games... Burn is just a baaaad match.
Not the best competition I suppose, but still felt good to get some testing in, and get a solid feel for the deck.
My thoughts: Jace's Sanctum was the secret MVP in almost every single game. I don't think we want more than 1, but we definitely want at least 1. Either via Gifts, or just by naturally drawing it, I managed to resolve this card waaay more than I ever thought I would, and it won me a very surprising amount of games. It's just much harder for an opp to interact with than youd think. No one is bringing in enchantment hate against us, and it dodges Decay. Once it's out, it's pretty much out for good. The Scry effect is solid, not amazing, but a nice perk, and decent at finding that last Gifts youd need, or whatever your looking for.
Monastery Mentor was decent. not amazing, but pretty good at what it does. I didn't win that many games off him tbh, but he represents a MAJOR threat the opp has to deal immediately. It's crazy how quick he can take over over a game. After reading kathal's reports, I played Mentor almost exclusivly when I had a way to either pump him out of Bolt range, have counter back up, or at least get a few Tokens out of him, and it worked out fairly well. That's definitely how you want to play this card. Don't just rush him out if you can't get any value out of him. Our whole deck synergies very well with him, and he really does feel like a straight up secondary win all on his own with how quick you can kill someone with a few Probes, Morphose, Rituals, etc. I even killed someone with a few pumped up tokens attacking into a mini Grapeshot.
Voracious Reader is very good. I feel like a lot of people blow off Homunculus until it transforms and then their like, "Oh sh**". Again he just synergizes with the deck well, and beats people down. better than he looks, although being forced to wait a turn to get a Mancer effect can be awkward.
The Ritual package feels perfect. Enough to do the combo loop, and to pump up some Prowess guys, but not so many you get flooded with useless cards. The combo package integrates into this deck very well now, and feels great now that we've managed to slim it down to it's absolute bare essentials.
My sideboard needs some work. Right of the bat I realized I need an Echoing Truth, or another enchantment kill card so I can make a hate kill pile. I sat against a resolved Rest in Peace for like 8 turns with a Gifts in my hand one game, and that felt horrible.
On that same note though. Grave Hate doesn't feel so bad with this list. We attack from so many angles with our Prowess creatures, it's pretty easy to just smash over any grave hate.
I would slot 1 Baral into this list because he's a great card, and would be good for Gifts piles, but Voracious Reader does so much work, and synergizes so well with this deck, I think you still want them over the other Mancer effects.
I also you think you need to have an open mind when playing. Don't trap yourself into only playing 1 role. What I mean is don't necessarily land a Mentor, or Reader, and just lock your brain into thinking youre on the beatdown plan now. Often in my games, I switched back and forth between beatdown, and combo mode. Soemtimes it just beatdown the opponent with prowess guys. Sometimes Id beatdown, then finish with a mini grapeshot. Or beatdown, the opp stabilizes, then win with the Storm combo. Sometimes the opponent just plays defense on your creatures till you storm them out. There's just a lot of different things going on, and I feel like it might be easy to fall into a trap of limiting your strategy.
All in all, i'm in love with the deck right now. It feels so crazy to be attacking the game from so many different angles, and my opponents never seem to know what the heck is going on. I love being able to threaten with a board presence, and/or the Storm combo, and just having so many options open. It's hard to describe actually.. But something about this list feels very very awesome.
I think this deck has real, actual potential. It feels good. Not to mention this is the most fun I've had with Modern in months. I'm all in on Ritual Gifts again.
That list looks like its only 36 cards? So you still have a bunch of room. You definitely want to fill out the cantrip suite. I think a list like that actually has potential too. It looks very sleek to me. But there are a lot of fun ideas you could do with a Grixis list. I like the idea of K Command in the deck, but Goryo's kinda fills a similar roll also.
I think a list with `7-8 Electromancer/Barals actually wants a few more rituals than the URw list. Kathals list operates on sort of a midrangey level as well by threatening with it's creatures, but the actual Electromancer and Baral are SO GOOD at pumping out super fast Ritual-Gifts loops,(Because the effect is instant; there is no delay in their effect like Homunculus or a late game Sanctum) I think that list wants to take on a faster angle of attack, and keep that mind.
It's hard to say for sure right now, but it's definitely worth some brewing and testing IMO.
Hey guys, I'm not a new face but it's been a really long time since I've picked up a deck like this and I have to say:
Wow, this current iteration that Kathal is working on is really something special.
This deck, when it gets even half of the right cards, is fast. It's quick due to Homonculus and like Hakanzo said, the deck works well together in all angles. The Homonculus helps with the storm combo, the rituals for the combo alternate to help burst out with Mentor (which Modern still hasn't broken yet), the Prowess creatures are resilient in a niche way, the combo is light and reliant on a lot less cards than previously, good mix of permission and removal, permission doubles as protection while removal can be recycled with PiF and Revive+Snap. The combo is very modular due to the flexible but less powerful pieces and can afford to take a shortcut with Bolts or damage accrued from combat.
I like it. It's refreshing to see a deck flow like this and be so simple and methodical in it's approach.
I'll be messing around with it lots, as the rest of Modern has become boring to me. I've seen it all up to this point and the format stopped being interesting to me. Nothing new and special is being developed except for this and Cherri0s+Sram, and I'm more enticed by this.
I'll be immediately switching Docent for Niblis of Frost. I think Mentor can handle that kind of job well, maybe we need to tweak the deck a bit to make him really shine as a true alternate. I feel like this deck can utilize the Frost to take more control of the board in this meta where even the midrange decks are planning on going wide. It doesn't survive Bolt on it's own but it costs a mana less, and I might try to help it out with a few tweaks, namely Unsubstantiate +1 and Remand -1. I'll also be trying dumb things, much like I normally do.
Is Stubborn Denial ferocious if we have a flipped Homonculus? It gets to 4 off of prowess and then Denial resolves at ferocious, does it not? (also works with Niblis of Frost if so which is sweet). I haven't played with ferocious so I wouldn't know.
Good too see such work being done. Excited to see what can be done with this idea.
EDIT: If there ever was a deck that could actually do well with Delay its probably this deck. Spawning Breath is silly.
So I dropped the Probes to squeeze Baral into the main deck. I'm not sure that's the right call, but I wanted to test Baral and couldn't decide what to cut. Probe seemed like a fair call. I used the other slot to up Bolt to 4. I think Kathal is on 61 cards, but I want to stay at 60. That last slot could be a 3rd removal option, or some type of draw spell, but i'm not sure yet. I also mixed up the counter suite to 1 of each of the 1 mana counters rather than the 2 Snag I was on before.
I've been racking my brain on a 3rd removal option..
Mono U Fae Control 2/0
Chalice Deathcloud 1/2
UW Control 2/0
GW Prison 2/0
Only 4 matches, and again not the most competitive competition, but the deck ran awesome.
-Spell Pierce felt good, and did work in the Deathcloud match fending off Chalice then Liliana after Snapping it back. That felt great.
-Baral felt good. I really think you only want 1 in the deck for the Gift piles, and because having access to a 2 mana Mancer effect without a turn delay can be nice.
-I didn't notice the lack of Probes, and 4 Bolt felt fine. I still think that flex slot could be something else, but it needs more testing.
The Fae match felt easy because he had very few ways to deal with the Mancer effects once they resolved. Not a whole lot of removal in mono Blue. Haha. So it was just a slow, patient game of baiting out counters, but I manged to resolved a mana reducer, and eventually power out a Combo both games. G2 actually did have an interesting moment where I had a Reader out as my mana reducer, but a Spell Stutter Sprite countered my second Gifts for the Grapeshot pile. I had Dispel in hand not expecting the Sprite, but I was still able to Bolt the Sprite, and attack through for the win with the pumped up Reader which was pumped up from the prior Ritual loop.
The Deathcloud match was frustrating because I got crazy manaflooded in game 1. I kept a mana heavy hand thinking I probably wouldn't draw any more lands, and hopefully draw into gas... then all drew lands for like 3-4 turns before just scooping and going to g2. G2 I landed a Mentor, and got some tokens before he resolved a Cloud for 3. I was able to keep Mentor around, saccing off some tokens, and Mentor quickly closed the show after the opponent stumbled in his next few draws. G3 was extremely close but he ends up landing Chalice on 1, Chalice on 2, then Cloud for 3, and that was pretty much it.
The UW Control match felt a lot like the Blue Fae match. He had Path, but other than that I wasnt seeing almost any removal. Jace's Sanctum did some work in this match. Both games were sloowwww matches, where I eventually fought a Sanctum through, and it basically took over the game. Gave me the mana/resource edge, while sculpting my draws and eventually securing Storm combos. He had to fight off some creatures, but the deck has some great inevitability due its multiple angles of attack, and the raw power, & versatility of Gifts.
GW again, if the opponent doesn't have sufficient removal.. it feels kind of easy. g1 I land a Homunculous, and Mentor early. He stumbles early, only casting some land enchantments that give him more mana, and I quickly smash for the win. g2 was a lot more interesting. I was about to beat down with some Voracious Readers but then he lands 2 Ghostly prisons, and a Sphere of Safety. Then i'm about to Storm combo but he lands a Leyline of Sanctity. Then he lands Choke and shuts off most of my mana... At this point he's in top deck mode. Eventually I draw a Disenchant, pop the Choke, untap, Snap the Disenchant to pop Leyline, and proceed to storm combo off.
So yeah, there's my mini report. I'll be doing a lot more testing so expect more test reports soon.
The deck feels awesome. I can't stress it enough. Most fun i've had in Modern in quite a long time. I agree that it may not be the Doomsday in Modern deck that we all want, but it still packs a wildly unique, versatile, complex style, unlike almost anything i've played. The deck packs a deceiving amount of raw power that can really just explode out of nowhere.
After screwing around a little bit more with the deck (regarding manabase and similar things) I came to the conclusion, that running a five drop, even in the SB, is something I want to avoid. It is so hard to get to 5 mana consistent and since we already play a couple of high drops (3 Gifts, 2 PiF and 1 Sanctum) adding additional high drops results into a to big of an problem regarding clunky hands.
However, since I want to play at least two non combo finishers in the SB, I will need to look for some solutions. The 4 mana Gideon looks decent (he is great vs BGx and meh vs Path decks), same is with Geist (fast clock, but squishy) or V Clique (super squishy, but gives you additional interaction and evasion). Btw, I do not want to run Nibilis, cause he can be Bolted and thus it requires me again to get to 5 mana to be at least somewhat Bolt proof.
Need to dig through magiccards.info to find some stuff ^^
Also, regarding Stubborn Denial, I rather want to run Spell Pierce, since that card is better in the early game (where we really need it), same in the mid game and worse in the lategame, where we do not have a problem at all (natural storming/bolting people out happened way to often in my games ^^ ). Yes, the interaction with the Prowess Creatures are nice, but I rate it as "too cute", especially, when we have to wait for a transformed Homunculus to reap the benefits or cast 2 spells to get the 4 power requirement for Denial.
Otherwise, I want to play 1 Baral MD, but I first need to find room for him :/
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Wizards keeps finding ways to hate on Storm in Modern.
Baral seems okay, I think I'll fit in like another draw spell and a 2nd Spell Pierce before trying him out though. 1U Mancer would help out a lot though, so maybe he needs to be worked in on a different angle. I really like the Goryo idea by zeta390, opting for black for protection in TSeize and Inquisition can be good for early interaction and opening the path. Maybe that could be an angle to work in Baral. What are some black spells that would be sick if they cost 1 less to cast?
Baral seems okay, I think I'll fit in like another draw spell and a 2nd Spell Pierce before trying him out though. 1U Mancer would help out a lot though, so maybe he needs to be worked in on a different angle. I really like the Goryo idea by zeta390, opting for black for protection in TSeize and Inquisition can be good for early interaction and opening the path. Maybe that could be an angle to work in Baral. What are some black spells that would be sick if they cost 1 less to cast?
The question should never be: "What card(s) get good, when they cost 1 less?", it should always be: "What playable card gets better if it costs 1 less."
Just because you have the possibility to get a discount on your spells, you should never ever bank on them.
Edit says: And to answer your question, Collective Brutality ^^
I would say 4 Suppression Field but everyone gets hit by Suppression Field, even us.
It actually isn't that bad to play a lot of Stony Silence, moving forward I think Affinity will recover a lot of lost ground and Lantern and Tezz will feel less pressure.
Silence can also be pretty good, but that's more of an oddity than anything. There's no efficient and cheap land destruction we can properly use so that option is probably not going to pan out well. Ideally hand attack is good for picking and choosing which threats they have. Karn can destroy us but Ugin is less of an issue. Ulamog can smoke us and TKS can be brutal. We don't mind OStone.
Edit: if Probe was still legal, Meddling Mage would be really good.
The answer is most likely more counters. Tron normally pivots the game around resolving one card, so maybe packing more counters can be good not only for Tron but for the tempo and control decks that will see more activity from the new B&R. Maybe in tandem with Baral? One mana Mana Leak and Remand with a loot seems very swingy.
What can be done is switching back to the UR version and run Blood Moon in the SB. With the added count of Rituals (6/7 pieces compared to 3) you can get out a turn 2 Moon pretty consistent. Only problem are the secondary finisher than (there is nothing like Mentor in the UR colours and no, Pyromancer is not a Mentor replacement).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Regarding your earlier statement, that Modern became boring regarding innovations, this is partly true. Many players do not want to invest their time into brewing and developing decks, which is a pity since this is a big part of Magic.
Otherwise, some "brews" I'm working on (when not doing some testing for Ritual Gifts and Griselbanned):
- Counter Cat (4c Delver with Nacatl, Goyf and Mandrills. Awesome deck, a nightmare to pilot correctly, since you fetch + shock usually 3 times but if played correctly, you still have a great aggro match-up)
- Necrotic Ooze.deck (basically BGx Midrange with several in build combos and value chains, has a Pod like feeling to it)
- RUG Loam (ft Gifts, if you want to run that version )
- Next level Loam (the Loam deck from the triple GP weekend in Eldrazi Winter. It just crushes every kind of Midrange/big Mana deck but is rather weak to aggro decks)
- Eternal Ruse (basically a more tempo oriented Eternal Command deck with Traverse)
The big question is just, do you want to invest the time to get a good deck or do you rather want to reap the benefits soonish? If second, than all those brews are not worth your time ^^
Otherwise, some thoughts regarding the B&R update in combination with our deck:
Not so thrilled to be honest. The URw version takes a hit for sure because of this, since it had a great aggro/aggro-combo match-up due to the great interaction and a good combo finish. I do not know, how good the BGx match-up is but thinking it through, I would label it problematic for both parties. If they have an early Goyf/Flayer and we do not have a Path, it will be nigh impossible for us to outrace them (cause of the amount of interaction, which is viable against us). If they have no Goyf/Flayer it gets miles better, since we have enough time to actually use things like Gifts and cantrips to find the required pieces.
However, as I said in the post earlier, the UR version might be better now, simply because of the access for Blood Moon. Yes, you can play Moon in a three colour deck, but it changes the manabase radically and forces us to run basic Plains, which is more than a dead card pre board (in fact, worst land). The thing is, at the same time we actually want multiple white lands to allow some crazy double Mentor/Mentor into Path (or in general W removal spells post board) lines, which you cannot do under a Moon. However, at the same time the RUG version (with or without the Mancer effects) looks better with Moon, since you only need a single green mana source, since your removal spells are in a different colour and thus you never really need double green (but when you want to deploy two threats at the same time).
This means for me: Update the UWR version first, get some testing in and than try out the RUg version and see, if it is better in this metagame or not.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Nice thing will be the decline of graveyard hate over the next couple of months. Helps out to brute force the combo through ^^
ad 1) You can always tutor for 3 Mancer effects, just build the following pile: Homunculus, Sanctum, Noxious Revival, X (X could be Snapcaster, Gifts or any other goody you want). Note: I want to test 1 Baral, so you basically make the same pile but with Baral instead of X (always giving you 2 Mancer effects and thus playing through one piece of interaction).
ad 2) If you can explain me, what cards I should cut for Snapcasters, please go ahead. If I would have the room, I would probably play with 2-3 Snapcasters but I simply do not have it. I want the cantrips for both Mentor as for Homunculus, I need the removal spells (Snapcaster is great to double up on Removal BUT you need a removal spell in the first place), same is true for the other elements.
Past in Flames has nothing to do with the lack of additional Snapcasters, the room is the problem. That you just value PiF ftw sometimes is cute, but not the main plan.
ad 3) Hard to say, cause those few games I played are not telling anything special. Delver is, as for close to every combo based deck, a very bad match-up. Aggro is in general a good one due to the fast combo kill while having interaction. BGx is always a "horror" for decks, which need some form of synergy (as we do). However, they have a big problem dealing with Mentor and Jace Sanctum, which we are both running. Also, you have more than enough time vs BGx usually (as long as they do not have a Flayer/Goyf start and you fail to find interaction), so setting up a Gifts chain is possible, which is a huge problem for them (especially when we hit land drops to do a natural PiF (or value PiF)).
Otherwise, Control is difficult to play, but this is a pure skill match-up. Combo depends on the exact deck, some are easy beatable, others are a horror (like Ad Nauseam).
But this question can only get answered in a couple of months, when we have collected more data with that version ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hey everyone! Former UR Storm player here who isn't quite ready to give up on the archetype. I may have also had some Storm foils that I would like to actually be using... Anyhow, while I haven't had time to read through the entire primer/thread yet (which I'm planning to do when I get done with my classes for the day), I figured I may as well say hello and see if there were any good starting points to begin learning the deck. Is the list in the primer still viable, or should I look at lists posted more recently?
I'm looking forward to learning/testing the deck in the weeks to come!
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Modern UBRGDredge
Under Construction WUBAd Nauseam
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For the list, see above. SB was:
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Research//Development
1 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dispel
1 Disenchant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Docent of Perfection
1 Path to Exile
I didn't think, that the store would have those Researchs, but since he had, I just went ahead and slammed those ^^
Round 1 vs Grixis Delver
Game 1: I had a good start with cantrips into Mentor with Protection. However, since he had Delver (only Path as removal, which I was forced to use) into removal + Tasigur into triple Bolt I was kinda dead before I was able to set-up a Gifts chain ftw
Game 2: I got stuck on mana + he had a really nice draw again. When I had 4 lands in play + a Homunculus (not able to flip) he went EoT Kolaghans, return Snappy, let me discard. I went Gifts in response, he went counter, I went Spell Pierce. I was able to grab 4 cards, however, he untapped, played Collective Brutality (discard, kill Homunculus) and Tasigur. Since I drew all 3 Arid Mesa I was low on life again and a Bolt into Snap Bolt into Tasigur activation sealed the deal before I was able to utilise the Gifts I resolved earlier.
Round 2 vs Mono Red Lantern Control ft. 4 Bolts, 4 Galvanic Bolts and more burn
Game 1 was a nightmare. He had surgical in hand (saw it from a Probe) and since he had so much removal I was unable to stick any beater. It didn't help, that I was stuck on 4 lands for a rather long time, so Mentor into a single spell was the best thing I could do.
However, he let me draw lands and through a really weird turn I was able to both draw and cast a Gifts, setting up another Gifts into kill within 3 turns. The only problem was, he drew 12 points of burn within 2 turns, which forced me to Gifts for a counter pile (was at 11 but need that Noxious Revival to win) and hope, that he misplays. He did, since he both gave me the false pile and sequenced his burn in a wrong fashion, which bought me enough time to win that game. Totally not deserved.
Game 2 I was able to stick a Homunculus, flip him, attack once, play a second one and start to chain Gifts (after he went mill -> fetch, reveal another Gifts -> crack Lantern -> draw Gifts) for the win.
By the way, did I mention, that casting a Gifts for 2 mana is kinda broken?
Round 3 vs Infect
Game 1 was a slugfest. The amount of interaction from both sides were insane. On one turn I went PiF into flashback Bolts/Paths/Spell Pierce cause otherwise he would have killed me next turn. However, after this "value" PiF I was able to close the game out with a Jace's Sanctum cantripping another Gifts into my hand and than go off by casting 3 Bolts + Grapeshot.
Game 2 was a, yeah, what was it?
My hand was: Mountain, Glacial Fortress, Homunculus, 2 Bolts, 1 Path, 1 Spell Pierce
You see the problem?
He drew more mana than me and thus was able to kill me with an Inkmoth Nexus (best card vs that hand, since I do not have two turns to interact with it but only one).
Game 3 was a classic Homunculus game. Turn 2 Humunculus, turn 4 flip into Gifts for removal and do some beatdowns. Since he forgot about the Mana reduction ability from the flipped Homunculus he went all in with a Inkmoth, going Pendalhaven, attack (trigger Exalted), in response Bolt, he in response Become Immense, I Remand for 1 mana, he Spell Pierce but I had 2 mana left.
Yes, that Bolt was tricky, but since I knew, that I would die to a Become Immense + Dispel either way, I went for it.
Round 4 vs Meerfolk
Game 1 I had the turn 4 kill through two counters (Spell Pierce, the 1 mana creature)
If you want to do the brain exercise on how I did it, go ahead ^^
Game 2 was an interesting one. He had a Vial into a boatload of Meerfolk. I had the removal to match but he got he down to 6 life in that process also because of a Deprive + Dispel on the two Gifts I attempted to cast (second one was a Snapcaster attempt).
On one turn I went for the Docent of Perfection fully aware, that either a Lord or Master of Wave from the Vial would kill me. He had the Master and so I died.
I made a mistake on turn 1 with the Serum Visions. I should have kept the PiF on top and draw it, since it would have allowed me to do a removal PiF later in the game.
Game 3 was not that interesting, since he was stuck on 1 land for several turns and I had a double Homunculus draw.
Thoughts about the list: Homunculus was the second best card in the whole deck (besides Gifts of course). What the card offers is insane, especially when you go untap, tap for mana, transform, cast Gifts with the 1 floating. Also, the 3/4 body with Prowess is just huge. One spell a turn is nothing unusual at all, so he becomes Goyf stats, two are the norm (but in the post board games) which results into 5 damage already.
Besides this, at least the main deck was solid. I do not know, how the transformational board is, since I only did it once (vs Grixis Delver) but even there I think, that sticking to the combo plan is better.
So, moar testing required, but the list makes a ton of fun and the brute strength is from time to time pretty surprising.
Thoughts?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I would rather have access to a Gifts based combo, which just closes the game for me out.
Yes, a Gifts into Unburial Rites for Norn is great vs Infect, Affinity and co, but why not win on the spot instead? Why not grab the 4 combo cards and go the Mana Seism route? Furthermore, Removal, especially Path to Exile, Terminate, Lilliana of the Veil or other random cards (Cryptic Command, Vapor Snag, Blessed Alliance, Edict effects,...) are pretty darn good vs the Reanimator package.
That is the reason, why I stopped playing Solar Flare, it is a great and cool deck, but the actual Unburial Rites combo is rather meh. The best creature you can grab is Elesh Norn vs Aggro and Griselbrand vs everything else, since he at least draws you cards before he dies.
As for methods for brewing (in general) I'm doing this:
a) What is my goal (so do I want to play card X and try to enable it (Gifts, Possible Storm, Griselbrand,...), do I want to create a specific Archetype, do I want to have access to a transformal SB, which colours do I want to run,...)
b) After you got your goal roughly down (like Gifts list with Unburial Rites package + maybe a transformal SB) you have to think, in what colours does it fit (if you have not chosen the colour based route). In this step, you have to think, what kind of deck exactly you want to run. For example, Gifts + Rites pushes you kinda already in the Uwb colours. Hence, it would fit nicely in a Esper deck. However, since you realistically only need UW you can also "splash" the Rites package in a RUg deck for example. This is especially important, since it defines what kind of deck it will be. A RUG Control deck will hardly work, but if you replace G with B or W than you have suddenly access to some great control cards.
c) When you got that one down, you can start to build your deck with the package which you want to run in it's core.
It helps a lot, if you have access to a rough list before hand (as I had with the UR Mancer version). Some ideas, like the Mentor MD came from testing and some discussions with other non Combo players since I realised on how slim you can hold the combo package.
And than you have to do a lot of try and error to get to a somewhat working list. This is especially true, when you are brewing at combo or tempo decks. There, slight changes to the deck can change everything.
Hope, I could help you.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Would it be completely insane to just splash green for Goyf, instead of white? White does give you access you some other powerful spells though beyond just another MD win con/threat. Reminds me of the old extended Pyromancer Ascension decks that splashed G for Goyf back in the day. Also worth noting though, is the synergy Mentor/ Myth have with the deck.
If we stick with white, what are your thought's on Spell Queller as a 1-2 of? Seems like it could fit all angles we're looking for, disruption, tempo, threat. But it is a tad expensive at 3 mana.
As for a Path clone, the ones that come to mind are Oust, Condemn, Chained to the Rocks, which each have their own issues. Blessed Alliance is another decent card to think about.
Regarding Myth, there are two problems I have with that card:
a) It gets big IF you lay it turn one, but is still only a vanilla creature (no evasion/protection at all), later on it makes value PiFs a lot better (they are already great btw) but in-between those turns (when we have 4 lands vs 8-9 lands) it kinda is "dead". The only good aspect is, that you can pump it in the meantime
b) It is meh vs the removal, which are already annoying for us (Bolt, Decay and things like Path/Terminate). However, his is also true for other similar threats (be it Goyf (which is at least Bolt proof), Queller, Clique, Snapcater,...). However, the other possible threats are either very mana efficient (Goyf), have slapped value on them (Clique, Queller, Snapcaster,...) or can go wide (Mentor, Pyromancer, Docent of Perfection,...) and thus can play somewhat around removal spells.
Compared to the other threats, Myth is just cheap, nothing else. I would rather test other finishers before testing it btw.
Regarding Goyf, this was the first idea I had when brewing together the UWR Mentor/Mancer version. Goyf is cheaper than Mentor and is better in the faster match-ups, where Mentor is meh. However, the shift towards G instead of W leaves us without a decent removal spell (no Path/Condemn/Blessed Alliance or co) while the SB stays roughly similar (you get access to Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry, finisher like Garruk Relentless/Garruk, Primal Hunter (best planeswalker btw vs Midrange) or things like Sagu Mauler (every non Edict deck just dies to that card)). The only true benefit of Goyf is, that you can run Anger of the Gods again, which is huge. Goyf does not die to it (or should to say it this way) and a flipped Homunculus also survives the sweeper. Due to the Rituals we can also power it out on turn 2 from time to time (relevant vs some nutty Dredge draws).
To be honest, I would need to test it to give a proper answer, if the W splash is better than the G splash. Also, a G splash would enable me to run the Channel + IV package, which is takes less space but is less explosive (+ you lose a good threat in Homunculus).
Regarding Spell Queller, I looked at that card, but it is meh. It doesn't close the game out in a timely fashion and it would just "buy" us some time. Basically, it would make us more reliant on the Gifts combo than the current version, where the Gifts Combo and the Beatdown plan happens roughly the same amount of tims (sometimes it is a combination). Also @zeta390, I think you are overestimating the power of Queller, it is a good card, but not something a deck like this needs. I would rather play Geist of Saint Traft instead (which I currently play in my SB).
Regarding Path, I first would need to know, which card I want to cut for it :/ . Looking at the latest list (see report) either Condemn or Blessed Alliance (better with the creature package I have, especially when you can use it to untap Homunculus to generate mana) would make the cut. None instant speed none sweeper type of removal is not good currently (but Declaration in Stone, which is quite good vs Dredge but garbage vs the rest).
Some stuff I'm currently testing (or are on the: "needs to get tested" list):
- Geist of Saint Traft SB/MD beater
- 8 Removal spells MD
- Dispel MD
- Meddling Mage (SB)
- basic Plains MD + a change of the mana base (need to buy those 3 Scalding Tarns :/ )
- A different utility land in place of Desolated Lighthouse (I doubt, there is one, but you can dream ^^ )
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
In general I hope, that some other players would start testing the deck, since I will be hardly able to do any testing the whole January (way to many exams), so I could only continue testing in February/March (besides some Cocka testing).
Also, I just want to add something, a green splash (and thus Goyf instead of Mentor) would mean, that with some small changes we would be able to run Traverse in the deck, which would make landing land drops or tutoring creatures easier (grabbing the one off Snapcaster or post board the one off Keranos/Thragtusk/Sage Mauler sounds good). Only question would be, how to enable delirium consistently, which might be to difficult (lands, Instants and Sorcs are easier, but afterwards it gets iffy). Also, the question is, if this doesn't fall under the category of "to cute".
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This card is INSANE.
This literally kills every hatebear, and almost every threat for 1 mana, with no drawback, and almost no set up.(Triggers on fetch crack).
Worth splashing black for?
Another insane idea that would require some dramatic changes, but wow.. Best removal printed in YEARS.
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Also, although Im suggesting other options, what I love about Mentor is just how well he synergizes with the deck. between, Morphose, Probe, Rituals, and a bunch of 1 mana cantrips, if he stays a live for a few turns he can overun games pretty easily.
Also Docent of Perfection.. Wow. What a crazy good card.
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I've been insanely busy these past few months, but things are finally easing up for me. Also my new work schedule finally opens up the option for local modern events, where as before I could only hit the Sunday legacy events. So hopefully I'll be able to join the fray with some local tourny reports soon. I've sort of been relegated to testing Modern on Cokatrice because of work, so i'm excited to play some paper modern.
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*EDIT* Honestly after really thinking about it, Fatal Push kind of scares me. BGx is EVEN BETTER against us now.....
On a more serious note, yes, Fatal Push is insane (I mean, it has roughly the same powerlevel as Path and Bolt, which is already great), however, black doesn't really offer anything to us. I toyed around with a Black splash for Delve creatures (which are getting better with the print of Fatal push) and Terminate, but G would still be better cause of Mandrills and Goyf. Even than, I would prefer white over both colours, since it has Mentor, Path and great SB cards.
However, as I said earlier regarding Goyf, I need to test it to give a proper statement.
As for Docent, the big problem is, that he costs 5 mana which is a real issue I run into. Yes, he is more powerful than Mentor (cause dodges Bolt, Anger and Decay) while he a decent clock on it's own, the big problem is, he costs to much. Normally I'm hitting the 5th landdrop on turn 7 or 8, which is really late for something I want to play asap and chain spells into it. That is the nice thing about Mentor, if he sticks a turn, you can go bonkers with your spells and generate a huge army. For a Docent army you need a couple of turns ^^
Than again, I have played with Docent the last two events, need to test him more, but this is my first impression.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Fourth playable Mancer effect, nice!
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Really interesting. Im trying to think of the best way to incorporate him into the deck.
Black could give us K Command, which brings back our Mancers, and could give us Goryo's Vengeance, as Baral is a legend. We could run a Grixis Control type shell with Jace's. These are some out of box thoughts though, just throwing different things out there.
4 Voracious Reader
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace's Sanctum
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
2 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Sudden Shock
1 Disenchant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Docent of Perfection
Basically Kathal's recent direction. I wanted to get some solid testing in with it. The deck is very well thought out. Everything synergizes with everything else very very well. The Rituals support the Storm combo, but also support Voracious Reader, and Mentor. The cantrips suit is cheap and efficient, activates Homunculus, and also powers up our Prowess guys. Just everything works with each other in a way you might not realize when first glancing over the list.
My recent testing results weren't quite as positive as I was hoping, but some of my losses were due to misplays.(Definitely a deck that takes practice as there are so many out of box lines you can make) And some losses where just really bad luck. Anyway here's my recent results from my initial Cockatrice testing:
Green Devotion - 2/1
RG Tron 0/2
Ad Nauseam 0/2
RW Nahiri 2/0
BR Moon Control 2/1
Burn 0/2
Mardu Nahiri 2/0
Grixis Delver 1/2
The RG Tron player just had the absolute nuts both games, with t3 Tron into shenanigans both games. So that was no fun. I was 1 turn away from winning both Ad Nauseam games, but he top decked his other combo piece both games... Burn is just a baaaad match.
Not the best competition I suppose, but still felt good to get some testing in, and get a solid feel for the deck.
My thoughts:
Jace's Sanctum was the secret MVP in almost every single game. I don't think we want more than 1, but we definitely want at least 1. Either via Gifts, or just by naturally drawing it, I managed to resolve this card waaay more than I ever thought I would, and it won me a very surprising amount of games. It's just much harder for an opp to interact with than youd think. No one is bringing in enchantment hate against us, and it dodges Decay. Once it's out, it's pretty much out for good. The Scry effect is solid, not amazing, but a nice perk, and decent at finding that last Gifts youd need, or whatever your looking for.
Monastery Mentor was decent. not amazing, but pretty good at what it does. I didn't win that many games off him tbh, but he represents a MAJOR threat the opp has to deal immediately. It's crazy how quick he can take over over a game. After reading kathal's reports, I played Mentor almost exclusivly when I had a way to either pump him out of Bolt range, have counter back up, or at least get a few Tokens out of him, and it worked out fairly well. That's definitely how you want to play this card. Don't just rush him out if you can't get any value out of him. Our whole deck synergies very well with him, and he really does feel like a straight up secondary win all on his own with how quick you can kill someone with a few Probes, Morphose, Rituals, etc. I even killed someone with a few pumped up tokens attacking into a mini Grapeshot.
Voracious Reader is very good. I feel like a lot of people blow off Homunculus until it transforms and then their like, "Oh sh**". Again he just synergizes with the deck well, and beats people down. better than he looks, although being forced to wait a turn to get a Mancer effect can be awkward.
The Ritual package feels perfect. Enough to do the combo loop, and to pump up some Prowess guys, but not so many you get flooded with useless cards. The combo package integrates into this deck very well now, and feels great now that we've managed to slim it down to it's absolute bare essentials.
My sideboard needs some work. Right of the bat I realized I need an Echoing Truth, or another enchantment kill card so I can make a hate kill pile. I sat against a resolved Rest in Peace for like 8 turns with a Gifts in my hand one game, and that felt horrible.
On that same note though. Grave Hate doesn't feel so bad with this list. We attack from so many angles with our Prowess creatures, it's pretty easy to just smash over any grave hate.
I would slot 1 Baral into this list because he's a great card, and would be good for Gifts piles, but Voracious Reader does so much work, and synergizes so well with this deck, I think you still want them over the other Mancer effects.
I also you think you need to have an open mind when playing. Don't trap yourself into only playing 1 role. What I mean is don't necessarily land a Mentor, or Reader, and just lock your brain into thinking youre on the beatdown plan now. Often in my games, I switched back and forth between beatdown, and combo mode. Soemtimes it just beatdown the opponent with prowess guys. Sometimes Id beatdown, then finish with a mini grapeshot. Or beatdown, the opp stabilizes, then win with the Storm combo. Sometimes the opponent just plays defense on your creatures till you storm them out. There's just a lot of different things going on, and I feel like it might be easy to fall into a trap of limiting your strategy.
All in all, i'm in love with the deck right now. It feels so crazy to be attacking the game from so many different angles, and my opponents never seem to know what the heck is going on. I love being able to threaten with a board presence, and/or the Storm combo, and just having so many options open. It's hard to describe actually.. But something about this list feels very very awesome.
I think this deck has real, actual potential. It feels good. Not to mention this is the most fun I've had with Modern in months. I'm all in on Ritual Gifts again.
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@ Zeta390
That list looks like its only 36 cards? So you still have a bunch of room. You definitely want to fill out the cantrip suite. I think a list like that actually has potential too. It looks very sleek to me. But there are a lot of fun ideas you could do with a Grixis list. I like the idea of K Command in the deck, but Goryo's kinda fills a similar roll also.
I think a list with `7-8 Electromancer/Barals actually wants a few more rituals than the URw list. Kathals list operates on sort of a midrangey level as well by threatening with it's creatures, but the actual Electromancer and Baral are SO GOOD at pumping out super fast Ritual-Gifts loops,(Because the effect is instant; there is no delay in their effect like Homunculus or a late game Sanctum) I think that list wants to take on a faster angle of attack, and keep that mind.
It's hard to say for sure right now, but it's definitely worth some brewing and testing IMO.
Wow, this current iteration that Kathal is working on is really something special.
This deck, when it gets even half of the right cards, is fast. It's quick due to Homonculus and like Hakanzo said, the deck works well together in all angles. The Homonculus helps with the storm combo, the rituals for the combo alternate to help burst out with Mentor (which Modern still hasn't broken yet), the Prowess creatures are resilient in a niche way, the combo is light and reliant on a lot less cards than previously, good mix of permission and removal, permission doubles as protection while removal can be recycled with PiF and Revive+Snap. The combo is very modular due to the flexible but less powerful pieces and can afford to take a shortcut with Bolts or damage accrued from combat.
I like it. It's refreshing to see a deck flow like this and be so simple and methodical in it's approach.
I'll be messing around with it lots, as the rest of Modern has become boring to me. I've seen it all up to this point and the format stopped being interesting to me. Nothing new and special is being developed except for this and Cherri0s+Sram, and I'm more enticed by this.
I'll be immediately switching Docent for Niblis of Frost. I think Mentor can handle that kind of job well, maybe we need to tweak the deck a bit to make him really shine as a true alternate. I feel like this deck can utilize the Frost to take more control of the board in this meta where even the midrange decks are planning on going wide. It doesn't survive Bolt on it's own but it costs a mana less, and I might try to help it out with a few tweaks, namely Unsubstantiate +1 and Remand -1. I'll also be trying dumb things, much like I normally do.
Is Stubborn Denial ferocious if we have a flipped Homonculus? It gets to 4 off of prowess and then Denial resolves at ferocious, does it not? (also works with Niblis of Frost if so which is sweet). I haven't played with ferocious so I wouldn't know.
Good too see such work being done. Excited to see what can be done with this idea.
EDIT: If there ever was a deck that could actually do well with Delay its probably this deck.
Spawning Breath is silly.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
Just a few small tweaks to get a Baral into the list, and a Fragmentize into the board.
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace's Sanctum
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
2 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Sudden Shock
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Fragmentize
1 Disenchant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Stony Silence
1 Docent of Perfection
So I dropped the Probes to squeeze Baral into the main deck. I'm not sure that's the right call, but I wanted to test Baral and couldn't decide what to cut. Probe seemed like a fair call. I used the other slot to up Bolt to 4. I think Kathal is on 61 cards, but I want to stay at 60. That last slot could be a 3rd removal option, or some type of draw spell, but i'm not sure yet. I also mixed up the counter suite to 1 of each of the 1 mana counters rather than the 2 Snag I was on before.
I've been racking my brain on a 3rd removal option..
Condemn, Oust, Declaration in Stone, Flame Slash, Roast, Repeal are all things that I've thought of, but I just can't decide what feels best.
So anyway here's today's test results:
Mono U Fae Control 2/0
Chalice Deathcloud 1/2
UW Control 2/0
GW Prison 2/0
Only 4 matches, and again not the most competitive competition, but the deck ran awesome.
-Spell Pierce felt good, and did work in the Deathcloud match fending off Chalice then Liliana after Snapping it back. That felt great.
-Baral felt good. I really think you only want 1 in the deck for the Gift piles, and because having access to a 2 mana Mancer effect without a turn delay can be nice.
-I didn't notice the lack of Probes, and 4 Bolt felt fine. I still think that flex slot could be something else, but it needs more testing.
The Fae match felt easy because he had very few ways to deal with the Mancer effects once they resolved. Not a whole lot of removal in mono Blue. Haha. So it was just a slow, patient game of baiting out counters, but I manged to resolved a mana reducer, and eventually power out a Combo both games. G2 actually did have an interesting moment where I had a Reader out as my mana reducer, but a Spell Stutter Sprite countered my second Gifts for the Grapeshot pile. I had Dispel in hand not expecting the Sprite, but I was still able to Bolt the Sprite, and attack through for the win with the pumped up Reader which was pumped up from the prior Ritual loop.
The Deathcloud match was frustrating because I got crazy manaflooded in game 1. I kept a mana heavy hand thinking I probably wouldn't draw any more lands, and hopefully draw into gas... then all drew lands for like 3-4 turns before just scooping and going to g2. G2 I landed a Mentor, and got some tokens before he resolved a Cloud for 3. I was able to keep Mentor around, saccing off some tokens, and Mentor quickly closed the show after the opponent stumbled in his next few draws. G3 was extremely close but he ends up landing Chalice on 1, Chalice on 2, then Cloud for 3, and that was pretty much it.
The UW Control match felt a lot like the Blue Fae match. He had Path, but other than that I wasnt seeing almost any removal. Jace's Sanctum did some work in this match. Both games were sloowwww matches, where I eventually fought a Sanctum through, and it basically took over the game. Gave me the mana/resource edge, while sculpting my draws and eventually securing Storm combos. He had to fight off some creatures, but the deck has some great inevitability due its multiple angles of attack, and the raw power, & versatility of Gifts.
GW again, if the opponent doesn't have sufficient removal.. it feels kind of easy. g1 I land a Homunculous, and Mentor early. He stumbles early, only casting some land enchantments that give him more mana, and I quickly smash for the win. g2 was a lot more interesting. I was about to beat down with some Voracious Readers but then he lands 2 Ghostly prisons, and a Sphere of Safety. Then i'm about to Storm combo but he lands a Leyline of Sanctity. Then he lands Choke and shuts off most of my mana... At this point he's in top deck mode. Eventually I draw a Disenchant, pop the Choke, untap, Snap the Disenchant to pop Leyline, and proceed to storm combo off.
So yeah, there's my mini report. I'll be doing a lot more testing so expect more test reports soon.
The deck feels awesome. I can't stress it enough. Most fun i've had in Modern in quite a long time. I agree that it may not be the Doomsday in Modern deck that we all want, but it still packs a wildly unique, versatile, complex style, unlike almost anything i've played. The deck packs a deceiving amount of raw power that can really just explode out of nowhere.
After screwing around a little bit more with the deck (regarding manabase and similar things) I came to the conclusion, that running a five drop, even in the SB, is something I want to avoid. It is so hard to get to 5 mana consistent and since we already play a couple of high drops (3 Gifts, 2 PiF and 1 Sanctum) adding additional high drops results into a to big of an problem regarding clunky hands.
However, since I want to play at least two non combo finishers in the SB, I will need to look for some solutions. The 4 mana Gideon looks decent (he is great vs BGx and meh vs Path decks), same is with Geist (fast clock, but squishy) or V Clique (super squishy, but gives you additional interaction and evasion). Btw, I do not want to run Nibilis, cause he can be Bolted and thus it requires me again to get to 5 mana to be at least somewhat Bolt proof.
Need to dig through magiccards.info to find some stuff ^^
Also, regarding Stubborn Denial, I rather want to run Spell Pierce, since that card is better in the early game (where we really need it), same in the mid game and worse in the lategame, where we do not have a problem at all (natural storming/bolting people out happened way to often in my games ^^ ). Yes, the interaction with the Prowess Creatures are nice, but I rate it as "too cute", especially, when we have to wait for a transformed Homunculus to reap the benefits or cast 2 spells to get the 4 power requirement for Denial.
Otherwise, I want to play 1 Baral MD, but I first need to find room for him :/
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Kathal just found room for Baral. Haha.
Wizards keeps finding ways to hate on Storm in Modern.
Baral seems okay, I think I'll fit in like another draw spell and a 2nd Spell Pierce before trying him out though. 1U Mancer would help out a lot though, so maybe he needs to be worked in on a different angle. I really like the Goryo idea by zeta390, opting for black for protection in TSeize and Inquisition can be good for early interaction and opening the path. Maybe that could be an angle to work in Baral. What are some black spells that would be sick if they cost 1 less to cast?
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
The question should never be: "What card(s) get good, when they cost 1 less?", it should always be: "What playable card gets better if it costs 1 less."
Just because you have the possibility to get a discount on your spells, you should never ever bank on them.
Edit says: And to answer your question, Collective Brutality ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Bye Probe, hi Peek and Sleight of Hands ^^
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Spirits
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I would say 4 Suppression Field but everyone gets hit by Suppression Field, even us.
It actually isn't that bad to play a lot of Stony Silence, moving forward I think Affinity will recover a lot of lost ground and Lantern and Tezz will feel less pressure.
Silence can also be pretty good, but that's more of an oddity than anything. There's no efficient and cheap land destruction we can properly use so that option is probably not going to pan out well. Ideally hand attack is good for picking and choosing which threats they have. Karn can destroy us but Ugin is less of an issue. Ulamog can smoke us and TKS can be brutal. We don't mind OStone.
Edit: if Probe was still legal, Meddling Mage would be really good.
The answer is most likely more counters. Tron normally pivots the game around resolving one card, so maybe packing more counters can be good not only for Tron but for the tempo and control decks that will see more activity from the new B&R. Maybe in tandem with Baral? One mana Mana Leak and Remand with a loot seems very swingy.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Otherwise, some "brews" I'm working on (when not doing some testing for Ritual Gifts and Griselbanned):
- Counter Cat (4c Delver with Nacatl, Goyf and Mandrills. Awesome deck, a nightmare to pilot correctly, since you fetch + shock usually 3 times but if played correctly, you still have a great aggro match-up)
- Necrotic Ooze.deck (basically BGx Midrange with several in build combos and value chains, has a Pod like feeling to it)
- RUG Loam (ft Gifts, if you want to run that version )
- Next level Loam (the Loam deck from the triple GP weekend in Eldrazi Winter. It just crushes every kind of Midrange/big Mana deck but is rather weak to aggro decks)
- Eternal Ruse (basically a more tempo oriented Eternal Command deck with Traverse)
The big question is just, do you want to invest the time to get a good deck or do you rather want to reap the benefits soonish? If second, than all those brews are not worth your time ^^
Otherwise, some thoughts regarding the B&R update in combination with our deck:
Not so thrilled to be honest. The URw version takes a hit for sure because of this, since it had a great aggro/aggro-combo match-up due to the great interaction and a good combo finish. I do not know, how good the BGx match-up is but thinking it through, I would label it problematic for both parties. If they have an early Goyf/Flayer and we do not have a Path, it will be nigh impossible for us to outrace them (cause of the amount of interaction, which is viable against us). If they have no Goyf/Flayer it gets miles better, since we have enough time to actually use things like Gifts and cantrips to find the required pieces.
However, as I said in the post earlier, the UR version might be better now, simply because of the access for Blood Moon. Yes, you can play Moon in a three colour deck, but it changes the manabase radically and forces us to run basic Plains, which is more than a dead card pre board (in fact, worst land). The thing is, at the same time we actually want multiple white lands to allow some crazy double Mentor/Mentor into Path (or in general W removal spells post board) lines, which you cannot do under a Moon. However, at the same time the RUG version (with or without the Mancer effects) looks better with Moon, since you only need a single green mana source, since your removal spells are in a different colour and thus you never really need double green (but when you want to deploy two threats at the same time).
This means for me: Update the UWR version first, get some testing in and than try out the RUg version and see, if it is better in this metagame or not.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Nice thing will be the decline of graveyard hate over the next couple of months. Helps out to brute force the combo through ^^
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
//Cantrips
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
1 Peek
//Creatures
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
4 Curious Homunculus
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Noxious Revival
1 Pyretic Ritual
1 Grapeshot
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Manamorphose
1 Jace's Sanctum
2 Past in Flames
3 Gifts Ungiven
Still sad, that they didn't unban something along Dig or Preordain
+ I would love an Impulse Reprint.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
ad 2) If you can explain me, what cards I should cut for Snapcasters, please go ahead. If I would have the room, I would probably play with 2-3 Snapcasters but I simply do not have it. I want the cantrips for both Mentor as for Homunculus, I need the removal spells (Snapcaster is great to double up on Removal BUT you need a removal spell in the first place), same is true for the other elements.
Past in Flames has nothing to do with the lack of additional Snapcasters, the room is the problem. That you just value PiF ftw sometimes is cute, but not the main plan.
ad 3) Hard to say, cause those few games I played are not telling anything special. Delver is, as for close to every combo based deck, a very bad match-up. Aggro is in general a good one due to the fast combo kill while having interaction. BGx is always a "horror" for decks, which need some form of synergy (as we do). However, they have a big problem dealing with Mentor and Jace Sanctum, which we are both running. Also, you have more than enough time vs BGx usually (as long as they do not have a Flayer/Goyf start and you fail to find interaction), so setting up a Gifts chain is possible, which is a huge problem for them (especially when we hit land drops to do a natural PiF (or value PiF)).
Otherwise, Control is difficult to play, but this is a pure skill match-up. Combo depends on the exact deck, some are easy beatable, others are a horror (like Ad Nauseam).
But this question can only get answered in a couple of months, when we have collected more data with that version ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'm looking forward to learning/testing the deck in the weeks to come!
UBRGDredge
Under Construction
WUBAd Nauseam