Yeah, I don't know of any other cheap way to get haste to the tokens beyond hystetia and emblem. It's unfortunate, because Mauler would fit th deck so well if he worked.
On another note, how have you found Seismic Stomp? My playgroup has a lot of Lingering Souls, Delver, and Faeries, so I haven't really been able to put it through its paces.
Seismic stomp....Hated it. As simple as that.. I would probably like more the 1 red mana storm (target creature can't block)
Or a boros charm.
I think the deck can aggro fairly well and that the combo is just a bonus. Kind of the Rug splinter type.
Was it the cost that was the issue? Ground Rift doesn't seem very much better to me since you need a reasonable storm count to make it approach Seismic Stomp...
The aggro backup is probably the only reason this deck even has a chance. We EOT stuff like Twin, so since our combo is more vulnerable, we need a hardier backup plan. Originally, I had an RG set-up with more board control, as well as Spawnwrithe and Giant Adephage, whose clones replicate, meaning the kill is much faster in terms of actually performing the actions in a game. However, that proved too slow against other decks, and the creatures were just too subpar without Breath. Then, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, and boros became the clear answer.
On the topic of protecting your creatures, giving your creature protection is poor because if the removal is red and you name pro-red, your breath of fury will not attach or stay attached. Rebuff the Wicked can counter any targeted spell for one mana without giving protection. Spellskite is good proactive protection as well. Forge-Tender also solves the red removal problem.
Is there a better way to search for breath of fury than Idyllic Tutor? 3 Mana and $18 each is a high price to pay.
I wish there was an Aura equivalent of Steelshaper's Gift, but unfortunately, we have to make do with what's available. At the very least, it also finds us a source of haste if needed, and can help with silver-bullet enchantments out of the sideboard.
On the topic of protecting your creatures, giving your creature protection is poor because if the removal is red and you name pro-red, your breath of fury will not attach or stay attached. Rebuff the Wicked can counter any targeted spell for one mana without giving protection. Spellskite is good proactive protection as well. Forge-Tender also solves the red removal problem.
Brave the Elements is also handy for streaming past blockers (at first anyway), or for blocking if needed. It also lasts the whole turn on our enablers, though the token refreshing needs to be worked around. Protection from red is an issue, but I think Burrenton Forge-Tender or Spellskite should be sufficient out of the sideboard, especially since the main is kind of tight. If necessary, though, I think Spellskite would have the best MB shot, especially since it can fight other Spellskites for Fury. Rebuff the Wicked seems so limited that I'm wary of it's inclusion. It stops Lightning Bolt and friends, but Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods circumvent it, and they're almost as common (though Aether Vial helps win through them). I've been wondering if perhaps Boros Charm is worth including alongside BtE since it does double duty in protection (against mass damage or wrath) as well as burn. Losing the faux Falter in BtE is tough, but it's not perfect either...
Seismic stomp....Hated it. As simple as that.. I would probably like more the 1 red mana storm (target creature can't block)
Or a boros charm.
I think the deck can aggro fairly well and that the combo is just a bonus. Kind of the Rug splinter type.
I disagree. I don't find that we are running enough creatures to win in an aggro plan. We are worse than Robots and other aggro plans in Modern, since they are all faster, they just win. All control decks can "control" us before we can "aggro" them to death.
We aren't competitive to anyone if we don't combo off. Plus we don't have the instant speed go off that Splinter Twin does. Splinter Twins combo can be put in play at instant speed and only is a two card combo. We also don't run blue so even if we get a Vial out we don't always have relevant things to do if we aren't ready to combo off.
This deck can have a lot of pieces in the deck, so we are resilient to people trying to disrupt our combo. The more they spend energy disrupting our combo, the more chance we will get to go off. So sometimes we might win by just aggro, but its not something this deck is or should be good at. This is a combo deck and you are kidding yourself if you think the aggro is a good backup plan.
Seismic stomp....Hated it. As simple as that.. I would probably like more the 1 red mana storm (target creature can't block)
Or a boros charm.
I think the deck can aggro fairly well and that the combo is just a bonus. Kind of the Rug splinter type.
I disagree. I don't find that we are running enough creatures to win in an aggro plan. We are worse than Robots and other aggro plans in Modern, since they are all faster, they just win. All control decks can "control" us before we can "aggro" them to death.
We aren't competitive to anyone if we don't combo off. Plus we don't have the instant speed go off that Splinter Twin does. Splinter Twins combo can be put in play at instant speed and only is a two card combo. We also don't run blue so even if we get a Vial out we don't always have relevant things to do if we aren't ready to combo off.
This deck can have a lot of pieces in the deck, so we are resilient to people trying to disrupt our combo. The more they spend energy disrupting our combo, the more chance we will get to go off. So sometimes we might win by just aggro, but its not something this deck is or should be good at. This is a combo deck and you are kidding yourself if you think the aggro is a good backup plan.
I consider aggro a backup plan inasmuch as Pod's backup is aggro. Plan A is far and away the best option, and you should always aim for it, but attacking doesn't hurt. I agree that this is hardly an aggro deck, but it is a deck that can aggro.
I have won more than one test game with simple beats. Unlike Twin, our creatures can actually perform when attacking, and you'd be surprised how many foes get tunnel vision and save removal to stop the combo while slowly bleeding away.
Pod runs 8 or 9 spells and the rest creatures. Not all their creatures are really aggressive, but still they have a critical mass to just kill you with them. We aren't running anywhere near that density of creatures. The creatures we run are pretty aggressive and maybe you could construct a list that would be more aggressive, But our three or four card combo requires 2 non-creatures (haste and Breath) and two creatures in play to go off. We need card advantage so you are talking about adding cards like Aether Vial and Faithless Looting (8 more non-aggressive cards). Neither Vial or Looting are true card advantage, so you need to be wary of Supreme Verdict effects Pod, gets Wrath'ed and starts over or has creatures that naturally come back into play like Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap. We also worry a lot more about spot removal, so we run cards like Brave the Elements.
We just want to run too many non-creatures to really be backup aggro. Yes, you keep attacking and you'll win some games without combo'ing off. Sometimes you can Breath and win the game without being able to go infinite, but generally we just aren't aggressive enough or running enough creatures to really be just an aggro deck.
I'm not disagreeing with you - There's a reason I made a new thread instead of posting in the Boros one.
However, I do think you're underestimating the deck's ability to win without the combo. It is, and always will be primarily a combo deck, but the burn gives us a tiny bit of reach, while our armies-in-a-can help us reach a sub-critical, though still significant board.
In the same way we lack Pod's inevitability in creatures, we lack Twin's capacity to strike slowly under defense or assemble in a heartbeat. Hence, this needs to live somewhere in the middle, though exactly where is still kind of up in the air.
I'm not disagreeing with you - There's a reason I made a new thread instead of posting in the Boros one.
However, I do think you're underestimating the deck's ability to win without the combo. It is, and always will be primarily a combo deck, but the burn gives us a tiny bit of reach, while our armies-in-a-can help us reach a sub-critical, though still significant board.
In the same way we lack Pod's inevitability in creatures, we lack Twin's capacity to strike slowly under defense or assemble in a heartbeat. Hence, this needs to live somewhere in the middle, though exactly where is still kind of up in the air.
I think we are two sides of the same coin, then. I want to temper people because I don't think your stealing anywhere the number of games that Pod is with aggro. But I won't disagree you will steal some. You don't want people to forget to keep trying to get damage through because it will win you a significant number of games. But you understand that it we aren't a real quality aggro deck and the combo is still Plan A and that you don't give up on Plan B of attacking with our quality creatures.
Any idea on protecting your creatures with boros charm or is that not likely to happen? It gives indestructible, and can provide a last bit of reach that you might otherwise lack with your current burn base.
Any idea on protecting your creatures with boros charm or is that not likely to happen? It gives indestructible, and can provide a last bit of reach that you might otherwise lack with your current burn base.
I've thought about it. I think that if some copies were to make it in, they'd come in over Lightning Helix. I've found in testing that the lifegain really wasn't worth very much as this deck typically doesn't fight back too well once its on the back foot, and when it does, it relies on its creatures more than its life. The only concern I have would be the loss of creature removal, so maybe remove a split of Helix/BtE? It'll need testing.
I hadn't touched this for 4 months, but I revisited this idea again after screwing around with my goblin deck and only then did I notice the new tools the deck had gained:
Goblin Rabblemaster is essentially a worse Brimaz, but having additional copies of this effect is exactly what the deck wanted, and he brings his own haste. Heliod's Pilgrim is no Stoneforge Mystic, but it fetches Breath of Fury and can be used as Fury fodder for the first attack. Launch the Fleet turns Pilgrim and the sideboard guys into slightly better Precinct Captains, it gives easy Fury fodder, and it can work as a white Fireball. I snuck a pair into the sideboard in place of Intangible Virtue, but I'm not sure how I feel about them yet.
Here's my current version, which has been significantly more consistent:
I'm still toying with options to get my creatures though. Brave the Elements was great before Rabblemaster since it protected them and had them slide on through, but now I'm not sure. Blinding Flare has been doing an ok job since not very decks will have multiple blockers, but it's still not ideal...
I really like the Breath of Fury concept.. but cant get the Insurrection spell out of my head... Insurrection plus Breath of Fury= win... even without creatures of your own
I kind of dropped this idea by the wayside ages ago, but with the spoiling of Legion Warboss in GRN to double up hasty Fury fodder, and the presence other cards that increase consistency and/or speed like Skirk Prospector, and Open the Armory, I've decided to give this another go around:
Since only one gobbo has to get in per attack step, I decided Tunneler might be worth a try. Prospector is also great as reserve mana to get Breath of Fury down with fewer lands, and can carry Breath. FSD can also carry Breath into the red zone, but can become a fat beater under the backup Empty the Warrens plan while sneaking through via Tunneler.
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On another note, how have you found Seismic Stomp? My playgroup has a lot of Lingering Souls, Delver, and Faeries, so I haven't really been able to put it through its paces.
Or a boros charm.
I think the deck can aggro fairly well and that the combo is just a bonus. Kind of the Rug splinter type.
Was it the cost that was the issue? Ground Rift doesn't seem very much better to me since you need a reasonable storm count to make it approach Seismic Stomp...
The aggro backup is probably the only reason this deck even has a chance. We EOT stuff like Twin, so since our combo is more vulnerable, we need a hardier backup plan. Originally, I had an RG set-up with more board control, as well as Spawnwrithe and Giant Adephage, whose clones replicate, meaning the kill is much faster in terms of actually performing the actions in a game. However, that proved too slow against other decks, and the creatures were just too subpar without Breath. Then, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, and boros became the clear answer.
Basically, protect your combo with the best cards: Rebuff the Wicked , Forge-Tender, and Spellskite
I wish there was an Aura equivalent of Steelshaper's Gift, but unfortunately, we have to make do with what's available. At the very least, it also finds us a source of haste if needed, and can help with silver-bullet enchantments out of the sideboard.
Brave the Elements is also handy for streaming past blockers (at first anyway), or for blocking if needed. It also lasts the whole turn on our enablers, though the token refreshing needs to be worked around. Protection from red is an issue, but I think Burrenton Forge-Tender or Spellskite should be sufficient out of the sideboard, especially since the main is kind of tight. If necessary, though, I think Spellskite would have the best MB shot, especially since it can fight other Spellskites for Fury.
Rebuff the Wicked seems so limited that I'm wary of it's inclusion. It stops Lightning Bolt and friends, but Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods circumvent it, and they're almost as common (though Aether Vial helps win through them). I've been wondering if perhaps Boros Charm is worth including alongside BtE since it does double duty in protection (against mass damage or wrath) as well as burn. Losing the faux Falter in BtE is tough, but it's not perfect either...
I disagree. I don't find that we are running enough creatures to win in an aggro plan. We are worse than Robots and other aggro plans in Modern, since they are all faster, they just win. All control decks can "control" us before we can "aggro" them to death.
We aren't competitive to anyone if we don't combo off. Plus we don't have the instant speed go off that Splinter Twin does. Splinter Twins combo can be put in play at instant speed and only is a two card combo. We also don't run blue so even if we get a Vial out we don't always have relevant things to do if we aren't ready to combo off.
This deck can have a lot of pieces in the deck, so we are resilient to people trying to disrupt our combo. The more they spend energy disrupting our combo, the more chance we will get to go off. So sometimes we might win by just aggro, but its not something this deck is or should be good at. This is a combo deck and you are kidding yourself if you think the aggro is a good backup plan.
I consider aggro a backup plan inasmuch as Pod's backup is aggro. Plan A is far and away the best option, and you should always aim for it, but attacking doesn't hurt. I agree that this is hardly an aggro deck, but it is a deck that can aggro.
I have won more than one test game with simple beats. Unlike Twin, our creatures can actually perform when attacking, and you'd be surprised how many foes get tunnel vision and save removal to stop the combo while slowly bleeding away.
We just want to run too many non-creatures to really be backup aggro. Yes, you keep attacking and you'll win some games without combo'ing off. Sometimes you can Breath and win the game without being able to go infinite, but generally we just aren't aggressive enough or running enough creatures to really be just an aggro deck.
However, I do think you're underestimating the deck's ability to win without the combo. It is, and always will be primarily a combo deck, but the burn gives us a tiny bit of reach, while our armies-in-a-can help us reach a sub-critical, though still significant board.
In the same way we lack Pod's inevitability in creatures, we lack Twin's capacity to strike slowly under defense or assemble in a heartbeat. Hence, this needs to live somewhere in the middle, though exactly where is still kind of up in the air.
I think we are two sides of the same coin, then. I want to temper people because I don't think your stealing anywhere the number of games that Pod is with aggro. But I won't disagree you will steal some. You don't want people to forget to keep trying to get damage through because it will win you a significant number of games. But you understand that it we aren't a real quality aggro deck and the combo is still Plan A and that you don't give up on Plan B of attacking with our quality creatures.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I've thought about it. I think that if some copies were to make it in, they'd come in over Lightning Helix. I've found in testing that the lifegain really wasn't worth very much as this deck typically doesn't fight back too well once its on the back foot, and when it does, it relies on its creatures more than its life. The only concern I have would be the loss of creature removal, so maybe remove a split of Helix/BtE? It'll need testing.
Goblin Rabblemaster is essentially a worse Brimaz, but having additional copies of this effect is exactly what the deck wanted, and he brings his own haste.
Heliod's Pilgrim is no Stoneforge Mystic, but it fetches Breath of Fury and can be used as Fury fodder for the first attack.
Launch the Fleet turns Pilgrim and the sideboard guys into slightly better Precinct Captains, it gives easy Fury fodder, and it can work as a white Fireball. I snuck a pair into the sideboard in place of Intangible Virtue, but I'm not sure how I feel about them yet.
Here's my current version, which has been significantly more consistent:
3x Battlefield Forge
3x Clifftop Retreat
2x Mountain
3x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Temple of Triumph
4x Breath of Fury
3x Emblem of the Warmind
3x Æther Vial
3x Goblin Rabblemaster
3x Heliod's Pilgrim
4x Precinct Captain
3x Blinding Flare
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
4x Faithless Looting
2x Idyllic Tutor
3x Hushwing Gryff
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Launch the Fleet
2x Rest in Peace
2x Retether
I'm still toying with options to get my creatures though. Brave the Elements was great before Rabblemaster since it protected them and had them slide on through, but now I'm not sure. Blinding Flare has been doing an ok job since not very decks will have multiple blockers, but it's still not ideal...
PS sorry, dont know how to hyperlink cards here
4 Legion Warboss
4 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Skirk Prospector
2 Pilgrim of Heliod
2 Goblin Tunneler
3 AEther Vial
4 Open the Armory
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Faithless Looting
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Battlefield Forge
2 Clifftop Retreat
2 Plains
3 Mountain
Since only one gobbo has to get in per attack step, I decided Tunneler might be worth a try. Prospector is also great as reserve mana to get Breath of Fury down with fewer lands, and can carry Breath. FSD can also carry Breath into the red zone, but can become a fat beater under the backup Empty the Warrens plan while sneaking through via Tunneler.