do you think it would be better if we try to run as few non-basic lands as possible? just something that i thought..it protects us against blood moon, it makes us less susceptible to decks that run fulminator mage like living end..
non-basics i would consider are ones that can defend like Stirring Wildwood, treetop village, mutavault, or even quicksand, etc..), disrupt, like ghost quarter and tectonic edge, useful against infect and tron..
or maybe 3 copies of refuge lands to gain life and mana fix()..or some kabira crossroads..they might help in prolonging the game especially when you're up against burn..and recur like buried ruin..
but as much as possible i'll try not to run so many non-basics if i could..maybe its just my exaggerated fear of blood moon, he he he..
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
i also like Noxious Revival in turbo fog..ensures that we will have a fog effect next turn by putting one on top of your library at end of opponent's turn..brings back destroyed howl effects..can re-use removal spells in the yard..
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
do you think it would be better if we try to run as few non-basic lands as possible? just something that i thought..it protects us against blood moon, it makes us less susceptible to decks that run fulminator mage like living end..
non-basics i would consider are ones that can defend like Stirring Wildwood, treetop village, mutavault, or even quicksand, etc..), disrupt, like ghost quarter and tectonic edge, useful against infect and tron..
or maybe 3 copies of refuge lands to gain life and mana fix()..or some kabira crossroads..they might help in prolonging the game especially when you're up against burn..and recur like buried ruin..
but as much as possible i'll try not to run so many non-basics if i could..maybe its just my exaggerated fear of blood moon, he he he..
i also like Noxious Revival in turbo fog..ensures that we will have a fog effect next turn by putting one on top of your library at end of opponent's turn..brings back destroyed howl effects..can re-use removal spells in the yard..
Land selection: Currently the only utility lands I run are reliquary tower, boseiju and 2 ghost quarters.
After more games with turbofog, I think that one of the advantages turbofog has (in its pure form) is that it completely blanks a lot of the opponent's cards. Creatures, pump spells, creature kill and wraths all might as well be blank pieces of cardboard. (The flip side, of course, is that the list of cards that kill turbofog dead is long and varied. Eldrazi are obvious offenders - but even Gray Merchant of Asphodel sucks because there is no way to negate the life loss through traditional fog effects. So does Underworld Dreams. And Teferi. And Dosan, the falling Leaf.) Therefore, I don't run any manlands because they are just Path targets. I don't even run Luminarch Ascension because the angels end up being chump blocked, path targets etc. Remember that the opponent gets to draw their entire deck before they lose!
I agree on the blood moon vulnerability - but we need UU for dictate and as many W as possible for the fogs pretty early. Against control or aggro decks with blue (e.g. fish, delver), you can be running out 2, 3 fog effects per turn due to counters and the limiting factor is how many white mana sources you have. I guess mana fixing lands are a necessary evil?
Noxious revival - again, when the opponent is drawing their entire deck (as opposed to milling it), I'd rather have an extra fog than a 1-for-1 card. I could be wrong, though, maybe replace some 1-mana fogs with it? I do run Psychic Spiral MB and Open the Vaults in SB, though. If you really wanted, I guess Gaea's Blessing is better as it protects from mill which can also sink us, since our mill is symmetrical while theirs is not.
Will post my list soon!
Edit: If I had Celestial Colonnade, I might consider it as a manland with evasion and that can actually mana fix. However, it's out of budget for me... I still think that Forest is better than Treetop Village, though.
If I had the budget, I'd replace 4 of Ivory Mask/Witchbane Orb with 4 Leyline of Sanctity. I'd still keep a single Witchbane Orb in SB, because that effect is very important (as explained later). I might also replace 1 or 2 Glacial Fortress with Celestial Colonnade.
Some notes about Turbofog that will explain my card choices:
1. Turbofog is one of the only, if not the only, deck that usually allows the opponent to draw their ENTIRE deck throughout the course of the game. While this is awesomely ballsy in that you are basically saying to the opponent that their deck (and SB) cannot beat you, no matter what they draw - the opponent WILL be able to dig for their answer sooner or later. It also means that out of the 75 cards the opponent has, we have an interest in blanking as many of them as possible. Hence, no creatures (inc. manlands, Luminarch Ascension) so their creatures, pumps, creature kill and wraths are all totally useless.
Hence, SB choices need to be general instead of specific, since there are so many things which can wreck fog "incidentally". And, there are limited slots for answers, because -
3. You only have as many turns to win as the number of Fogs in your deck. My deck only has 16 fogs (18 counting Supreme Verdict), so I have a maximum of 16-18 turns to win before I run out of fogs. Worse still, usually I won't completely draw out my deck, so I won't see all my fogs, sometimes I need to play fogs on my turn (e.g. burn) which sets me back 1 fog, or counters result in having to play 2, 3 even 4 fogs per turn. Hence, I can't decrease the fog count too much, or the turbo count because that's what kills the opponent since I don't have slots to devote to extra wincons other than decking. Additionally, needing enough mana to fog multiple times per turn (or on both your end step and the opponent's turn) is why Rites of Flourishing is necessary.
With that in mind, card choice explanations: Safe Passage/Riot Control: Although these are expensive, these are 4-ofs because they are the only fogs that prevent burn as well. Additionally, Riot Control's lifegain is very relevant against non-targeting lose life stuff like Siege Rhino or Gary.
Dawn Charm: despite its versatility, this is usually a more expensive Holy Day - hence I only run 2.
Dictate of Kruphix: the double U sucks, but since Modern has no top tier enchantress.dec - relying on artifacts too much is just asking for Creeping Corrosion or something similar.
No Jace Beleren: Planeswalkers are actually not so easy to protect, since for some strange reason Wizards has seen fit to print newer white fogs (Riot Control, Safe Passage) with wording that only protects you and not your planeswalkers. There is stuff like Clinging Mists, but it's generally overcosted and doesn't protect against burn. I found that I was usually unable to protect Jace and never got his ultimate off. Anyway, turbofog is not THAT slow, usually I win around turn 12 so by the time Jace would (hypothetically) go off I should already win.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All: Blue aggro (fish, faeries) will make you use up 2-3 fogs per turn with their counters. This lets you win.
Reliquary Tower: More fogs in hand is always important - see note for Boseiju.
Ghost Quarter: Use this on the control deck's manlands to avoid losing too much life, since you're going to have trouble with counters killing your fogs. It's not exactly enough to stop Tron, though.
No manlands: as mentioned above, not playing creatures helps you blank a lot of cards. I only make an exception for Celestial Colonnade as it has evasion and helps mana-fix, but I don't find it necessary.
Ivory Mask/Witchbane Orb: Look at the list of turbofog hosers - many of them target an opponent. Even Karn and Liliana get stopped by this effect. It also stops mill and many combos. As well as stopping black "lose life" that isn't targeted. This effect is important enough to run mainboard in multiples.
Nevermore: Stops whatever Ivory Mask doesn't, like Gray Merchant or Siege Rhino or Skullcrack. This is what I meant by "run general answers". It doesn't get more general than this...
On that note, the SB only runs general answers and answers to fog hosers. For example, I don't run Stony Silence, Kataki or other artifact hate because affinity wins through aggro which is stopped anyway. I don't run more wraths because I just fog aggro. I don't run Pithing Needle because Nevermore is more general, etc.
Rest in Peace: Because the Eldrazi or Gaea's Blessing need an answer. Also helps stop some combos.
Angel's Grace: Stops "I win" combos (e.g. Hive Mind pacts) which can get through your fogs.
Open the Vaults: Because if the opponent knows how fog works, he won't kill the fogs. He'll kill the turbo, and then you can't win in 16 or 18 turns. Also, modern has awesome removal (Maelstrom Pulse...sigh) and this helps somewhat.
Don't know if it's viable competitively, but I plan to drop some Myth Realized into the Turbofog deck I'm building to deal with my buddy's aggro decks.
When I originally came up with the list, I was using Treasure Cruise instead of Think Twice, and I only have Think Twice as a placeholder for now until I find something more suitable. I prefer this wincon rather than mill because I don't like helping my opponent draw into answers. My biggest worry is cards like Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge. But, really, this is just a deck that I thought would be worth the small amount of money it would cost to build.
Don't know if it's viable competitively, but I plan to drop some Myth Realized into the Turbofog deck I'm building to deal with my buddy's aggro decks.
I think Myth Realized fits more in a control shell, rather than turbofog. In turbofog, it's just going to eat every piece of creature removal that's just sitting around taking up space in the opponent's hand, or get chump blocked by the opponent's formerly useless creatures. Back when I was running Luminarch Ascension, I've even had opponents Path to Exile my Angel tokens. If I really wanted to play a creature, though, I'd choose something which can protect itself and has some sort of evasion to actually connect. A bonus would be if it helps out the gameplan. Empyrial Archangel would be nice. Something like Inkwell Leviathan might be ok too.
I didn't realize there was a thread for this deck archetype. A while back I brewed up this list:
When I originally came up with the list, I was using Treasure Cruise instead of Think Twice, and I only have Think Twice as a placeholder for now until I find something more suitable. I prefer this wincon rather than mill because I don't like helping my opponent draw into answers. My biggest worry is cards like Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge. But, really, this is just a deck that I thought would be worth the small amount of money it would cost to build.
I don't know if you can call a deck turbofog without turbo... Nevertheless, maybe Rites of Flourishing would help you reach Maze's End faster? And with the fogs you have, you're going to die to direct damage pretty fast - how about Riot Control? Finally, any benefit from running fogs instead of a 5c control shell with land tutors like Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying whatnot?
Heh, I didn't know Ethereal Haze was a card. Definitely better than Holy Day. As for direct damage, that would probably have to be dealt with by sideboard cards. Since direct damage is only one matchup, the sideboard would likely be the place for dealing with it. There are a couple maindeck answers, in Dawn Charm and Angel's Grace, so all is not completely lost. I would imagine Blood Moon would be harder to deal with, really.
Heh, I didn't know Ethereal Haze was a card. Definitely better than Holy Day. As for direct damage, that would probably have to be dealt with by sideboard cards. Since direct damage is only one matchup, the sideboard would likely be the place for dealing with it. There are a couple maindeck answers, in Dawn Charm and Angel's Grace, so all is not completely lost. I would imagine Blood Moon would be harder to deal with, really.
It's not just about direct damage. Lifegain is sometimes (oftentimes) relevant. As I mentioned previously:
Safe Passage/Riot Control: Although these are expensive, these are 4-ofs because they are the only fogs that prevent burn as well. Additionally, Riot Control's lifegain is very relevant against non-targeting lose life stuff like Siege Rhino or Gary.
Can we have some discussion about turbofog (and maybe comments about my list and card choices) rather than Maze's End combo, anyway?
Was hoping for more than a link to a 2-year old decklist and thread, but still...
Do you think Isochron Scepter (and the 2-for-1 if you get it destroyed) is usable in a metagame where BGx is the most common colour combination and Abrupt Decay is seemingly everywhere?
Was hoping for more than a link to a 2-year old decklist and thread, but still...
Do you think Isochron Scepter (and the 2-for-1 if you get it destroyed) is usable in a metagame where BGx is the most common colour combination and Abrupt Decay is seemingly everywhere?
Its a valid concern but I would cautiously say yes, as a 2-of or so. If you get 1 use out of scepter you break even, regardless of Abrupt Decay. Think of scepter as a late game lock piece, after theyve used up what little artifact removal they main deck against Howling Mines / Jaces etc. In any case there is some decent discussion on that thread. Would be nice if a mod combine the 3-4 threads we have floating around for this topic into one non-archived thread.
I still say we throw in a singleton of Azor's Elocutors as a wincon/flavor. It gets slaughtered by PtE, but can resist bolt, flame slash, and isn't hit by abrupt decay.
Runelfare trap has been an excellent wincon for me. Often I can fire off two or three in the same turn. Unlike luminarch's ascension, myth realized, or even celestial colonnade, the trap does get hit by abrupt decay, pte, or even bolt. The thing about turbofog is that if there is an answer in their deck, they will draw it. The only thing you need to worry about is a counterspell, but the only hard counter in modern is cryptic command. Remand is no problem because the spell just comes right back to your hand and you can cast it again. It's only R. Mana leak isn't an issue because the you've got the mana.
What sort of a manabase are you running? I thin turbofog already needs Bant colours - wouldn't the addition of R for Runeflare Trap create more mana issues? It's nice, but I think not worth stretching the manabase for. Unless you're playing Blood Moon somewhere too
Hmmm...I think the only creature I'd want to add would be Empyrial Archangel. Otherwise, you're just giving their creature kill spells a function beyond blank cardboard...
Hey guys just started lurking on this, and came up with a list that's an ode to the INN/SoM Turbo Fog. Using Stonehorn Dignitary soft lock as an additional fog, and ultimately popping a Venser and exiling your opponents board state. Without further delay here is the list.
I should probably have some number of Leylines in the board for discard and burn(this mainly). Pithing Needle is there for Karn Liberated, Sigarda is there for Emrakul and Living End(Narrow). I haven't had a chance to sleeve the deck up, but it seems ultra-trolly. The venser/stonehorn lock maybe cute, but is brutal for majority of decks because attacking is the primary win condition in Modern atm. Elixir is there to pretty much re-feed everything back in the deck, as it's power should not be underestimated(Also keeps you from decking.)
23 Lands seems a little light and it should probably be 24. I am also sure i can change the ration of Fog effects.
After some goldfishing I think 24 is the correct number of lands to run in this archetype. It is definitely necessary to hit lands(obviously)even though majority of the deck is 2cmc it is important to be able to play some sort of wincon.
Here's my issue with turbo fog, despite how badly I want to play it.
#1: Hivemind is a random combo deck you can run into, and we need an out to that. Angel's grace answers it, but angels grace is pretty useless in other confrontations.
#2: Melira combo is also a deck, and most of our fogs can't dodge that. Its still a rarer deck to run into.
#3: Tron is also a deck, and emrakul is hard to answer since we need to tap him down. Second, the draw out win con doesnt work very well against an eldrazi shuffle.
Which means we need an alt win con to get around this. There are a few options.
Mazes end - Works well with our turbo effects, especially Rite of flourishing
Felidar Sovereign - Going with a steady life gain plan that drags our life total upwards over the course of the game seems decent, but I think felidar will just eat removal.
Azor's Electors - Probably will eat removal over the course of 5 turns.
Overall I think maze's end is our best bet. We don't have to worry about removal, land destruction won't effect us if we run a couple life from the loam. Seems good.
Here's my issue with turbo fog, despite how badly I want to play it.
#1: Hivemind is a random combo deck you can run into, and we need an out to that. Angel's grace answers it, but angels grace is pretty useless in other confrontations.
#2: Melira combo is also a deck, and most of our fogs can't dodge that. Its still a rarer deck to run into.
#3: Tron is also a deck, and emrakul is hard to answer since we need to tap him down. Second, the draw out win con doesnt work very well against an eldrazi shuffle.
Which means we need an alt win con to get around this. There are a few options.
Mazes end - Works well with our turbo effects, especially Rite of flourishing
Felidar Sovereign - Going with a steady life gain plan that drags our life total upwards over the course of the game seems decent, but I think felidar will just eat removal.
Azor's Electors - Probably will eat removal over the course of 5 turns.
Overall I think maze's end is our best bet. We don't have to worry about removal, land destruction won't effect us if we run a couple life from the loam. Seems good.
It's an awesome idea which somehow I feel compelled to build, but at that point you might as well play Tooth and Nail into Emmy. At which point you stop playing turbofog. Honestly, I don't think including a subpar combo like Maze's End is the way to go. Emmy and friends are worrisome, yeah, but you can just play Nevermore. Or Bribery. I'm more worried about blue-based combo decks like Merfolk or Fairies that can just keep baiting Fogs until they build up enough critical mass and counters to one shot you.
I was thinking more of a standard Turbofog build with some tweaks, not a rebuild. I'm working on a list with one Emmy (to combat mill/self-mill or swing hard late-game), some sweepers to screw with tempo (namely Verdict cuz it's uncounterable), a few Archive Traps (sideboard for fetch heavy match ups), one Helix Pinnacle to pump extra mana into, etc. It's been working good against a buddy of mine, but in a casual setting. I can't find a Modern night that always fires to test it in the right meta.
First off... as a player of turbo fog/smog goin on 10 yrs now, don't run emmy. Run ulamog. If u want an eldrazi for that effect, use one u can cast. I've hardcasted him before against some decks and he usually wins right there. I also run elixir of immortality in case of some kind of Crainial extraction type of effect. I'll post my list a lil later when I'm free. Currently running Esper turbo smog
The last 15 for sideboard were for the meta I faced before eidolon at my shop. It obviously needs tweaking now since the meta has shifted some. Also, I have been wanting to try a different wincon than dreams and visions. Ive been thinking about using a lock down combo like academy ruins and mindslaver. I use to run a fun thing with silence and megrim / lilianas caress that worked pretty well. I avoided green bc there's nothing in green that really excites me to play it over any other color. I avoided creatures in general to blank their removal and wrath. I also don't like the idea of running snapcaster. Sure he's a flash block but he's easily outclassed by most cards in modern and he makes our 1 mana fogs 3 mana since we use 2 to cast snaps and 1 to flashback the fog. I main board leyline bc of burn, storm, and other combos that target. Sb was set up against Tron, burn, living end, and counters for stuff that stops fogging at instant speed ( grand abolisher ) or for twin.
If you want some advice, I'll get back to help in a bit
First off... as a player of turbo fog/smog goin on 10 yrs now, don't run emmy. Run ulamog. If u want an eldrazi for that effect, use one u can cast. I've hardcasted him before against some decks and he usually wins right there. I also run elixir of immortality in case of some kind of Crainial extraction type of effect. I'll post my list a lil later when I'm free. Currently running Esper turbo smog
I'd be interested in seeing what a current Esper turbo smog looks like.
I've been playing modern awhile and I've finally decided to try my hand at turbofog, my starting draft is this is azorius turbo fog build http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/22-05-15-azorius-turbo-fog/ however there's a few issues with it.
A) I need to trim 5 cards as its a 65 card deck
B) I think I've gone too deep on counter spells should maybe trim them down a bit to just a few negates
C) I'm not entirely sure on the manabase at all I think it might be a bit too shaky
Could you guys possibly help me refine it?
From your list, I wouldn't run cards specific to a MU unless everyone you play is playing tron. Swan songs are sb material. Same with negates. Why are you running boseiju (sp)? I guess it's maybe bc you're running higher costing fogs which you don't want countered. I run 1 drop fogs so if they counter one, I can easily play another. Why are you running mikokoro? plenty of draw from mines effects. No need for this land nor reliquary tower. I find that unless I'm against a control deck, I'm tapping most of my mana to play stuff and that things I discard aren't all that important such as extra fogs and lands which then are cycled back in with elixir. towards the end, I started running 2 elixirs with ulamog in the sb
Hi everyone, I'm kinda new to MTG (did tons of deckbuilding, but seldomly got to play IRL) and I really love Turbofog. I really hope this thread keeps on growing, as I think this could be the beginning of the resurrection of Turbofog.
Think we should add some videos/bitacores of the hardest matchups we can face in order to check out the interactions and develop methods for getting over those decks.
For instance, I've been using Memorylapse's latest scepterfog deck on OCTGN, and I think it's really cool, but I had to tweak the sb a bit as his deck was made 2 years ago.
It worked just fine vs. Affinity, but I lost due to my own inexperience. Didn't know affinity played so many counterspells.
I had plenty of troubles against Mono Green Eldrazi, but that was before tweaking the sb. Still I think it's a really tough matchup, as we tend to slow things out, and they grow stronger as the turns go by.
Mono green eldrazy really scared the s*** outta me so most of my hate is focused on that and Tron.
I've also beaten Melira combo(podless) imprinting ethereal hazeon isochron scepterso his murderous redcapwouldn't hurt me once he goes off with the combo. G2 I sideboarded Rest in peaceand leyline of sanctity and I got them on my opening hand, so after drawing, fogging, and milling him for a while, he scooped.
non-basics i would consider are ones that can defend like Stirring Wildwood, treetop village, mutavault, or even quicksand, etc..), disrupt, like ghost quarter and tectonic edge, useful against infect and tron..
or maybe 3 copies of refuge lands to gain life and mana fix()..or some kabira crossroads..they might help in prolonging the game especially when you're up against burn..and recur like buried ruin..
but as much as possible i'll try not to run so many non-basics if i could..maybe its just my exaggerated fear of blood moon, he he he..
—Seal inscription
—Seal inscription
Land selection: Currently the only utility lands I run are reliquary tower, boseiju and 2 ghost quarters.
After more games with turbofog, I think that one of the advantages turbofog has (in its pure form) is that it completely blanks a lot of the opponent's cards. Creatures, pump spells, creature kill and wraths all might as well be blank pieces of cardboard. (The flip side, of course, is that the list of cards that kill turbofog dead is long and varied. Eldrazi are obvious offenders - but even Gray Merchant of Asphodel sucks because there is no way to negate the life loss through traditional fog effects. So does Underworld Dreams. And Teferi. And Dosan, the falling Leaf.) Therefore, I don't run any manlands because they are just Path targets. I don't even run Luminarch Ascension because the angels end up being chump blocked, path targets etc. Remember that the opponent gets to draw their entire deck before they lose!
I agree on the blood moon vulnerability - but we need UU for dictate and as many W as possible for the fogs pretty early. Against control or aggro decks with blue (e.g. fish, delver), you can be running out 2, 3 fog effects per turn due to counters and the limiting factor is how many white mana sources you have. I guess mana fixing lands are a necessary evil?
Noxious revival - again, when the opponent is drawing their entire deck (as opposed to milling it), I'd rather have an extra fog than a 1-for-1 card. I could be wrong, though, maybe replace some 1-mana fogs with it? I do run Psychic Spiral MB and Open the Vaults in SB, though. If you really wanted, I guess Gaea's Blessing is better as it protects from mill which can also sink us, since our mill is symmetrical while theirs is not.
Will post my list soon!
Edit: If I had Celestial Colonnade, I might consider it as a manland with evasion and that can actually mana fix. However, it's out of budget for me... I still think that Forest is better than Treetop Village, though.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
4 Ethereal Haze
2 Holy Day
2 Dawn Charm
4 Safe Passage
4 Riot Control
2 Supreme Verdict
Turbo (14)
4 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Temple Bell
Utility (4)
2 Ivory Mask
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Forest
5 Island
5 Plains
1 Ivory Mask
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Open the Vaults
4 Rest in Peace
4 Nevermore
4 Angel's Grace
If I had the budget, I'd replace 4 of Ivory Mask/Witchbane Orb with 4 Leyline of Sanctity. I'd still keep a single Witchbane Orb in SB, because that effect is very important (as explained later). I might also replace 1 or 2 Glacial Fortress with Celestial Colonnade.
Some notes about Turbofog that will explain my card choices:
1. Turbofog is one of the only, if not the only, deck that usually allows the opponent to draw their ENTIRE deck throughout the course of the game. While this is awesomely ballsy in that you are basically saying to the opponent that their deck (and SB) cannot beat you, no matter what they draw - the opponent WILL be able to dig for their answer sooner or later. It also means that out of the 75 cards the opponent has, we have an interest in blanking as many of them as possible. Hence, no creatures (inc. manlands, Luminarch Ascension) so their creatures, pumps, creature kill and wraths are all totally useless.
2. Along with that, the list of "answers" there is to Turbofog is long and very diverse. Here's some examples:
Eldrazi/Gaea's Blessing
Mill (e.g. Hedron Crab)
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir/Dragonlord Dromoka
Underworld Dreams
Gray Merchant of Asphodel/Blood Artist/black damage effects worded to say "lose life" instead of "damage"
On the above note, enough Siege Rhinos
Karn Liberated/Nicol Bolas and other repeatable artifact/enchantment kill
Iona, Shield of Emeria on white
Chalice of the Void on 3
Skullcrack (especially bad if the opponent knows to target themselves instead of you)/Flames of the Blood Hand
Combo which allows the opponent to win (e.g. Laboratory Maniac)or which can repeat on both your turn and the opponents (e.g multiple Goblin Charbelchers)
Enough burn spells, played one per turn only
Hence, SB choices need to be general instead of specific, since there are so many things which can wreck fog "incidentally". And, there are limited slots for answers, because -
3. You only have as many turns to win as the number of Fogs in your deck. My deck only has 16 fogs (18 counting Supreme Verdict), so I have a maximum of 16-18 turns to win before I run out of fogs. Worse still, usually I won't completely draw out my deck, so I won't see all my fogs, sometimes I need to play fogs on my turn (e.g. burn) which sets me back 1 fog, or counters result in having to play 2, 3 even 4 fogs per turn. Hence, I can't decrease the fog count too much, or the turbo count because that's what kills the opponent since I don't have slots to devote to extra wincons other than decking. Additionally, needing enough mana to fog multiple times per turn (or on both your end step and the opponent's turn) is why Rites of Flourishing is necessary.
With that in mind, card choice explanations:
Safe Passage/Riot Control: Although these are expensive, these are 4-ofs because they are the only fogs that prevent burn as well. Additionally, Riot Control's lifegain is very relevant against non-targeting lose life stuff like Siege Rhino or Gary.
Dawn Charm: despite its versatility, this is usually a more expensive Holy Day - hence I only run 2.
Dictate of Kruphix: the double U sucks, but since Modern has no top tier enchantress.dec - relying on artifacts too much is just asking for Creeping Corrosion or something similar.
No Jace Beleren: Planeswalkers are actually not so easy to protect, since for some strange reason Wizards has seen fit to print newer white fogs (Riot Control, Safe Passage) with wording that only protects you and not your planeswalkers. There is stuff like Clinging Mists, but it's generally overcosted and doesn't protect against burn. I found that I was usually unable to protect Jace and never got his ultimate off. Anyway, turbofog is not THAT slow, usually I win around turn 12 so by the time Jace would (hypothetically) go off I should already win.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All: Blue aggro (fish, faeries) will make you use up 2-3 fogs per turn with their counters. This lets you win.
Reliquary Tower: More fogs in hand is always important - see note for Boseiju.
Ghost Quarter: Use this on the control deck's manlands to avoid losing too much life, since you're going to have trouble with counters killing your fogs. It's not exactly enough to stop Tron, though.
No manlands: as mentioned above, not playing creatures helps you blank a lot of cards. I only make an exception for Celestial Colonnade as it has evasion and helps mana-fix, but I don't find it necessary.
Ivory Mask/Witchbane Orb: Look at the list of turbofog hosers - many of them target an opponent. Even Karn and Liliana get stopped by this effect. It also stops mill and many combos. As well as stopping black "lose life" that isn't targeted. This effect is important enough to run mainboard in multiples.
Nevermore: Stops whatever Ivory Mask doesn't, like Gray Merchant or Siege Rhino or Skullcrack. This is what I meant by "run general answers". It doesn't get more general than this...
On that note, the SB only runs general answers and answers to fog hosers. For example, I don't run Stony Silence, Kataki or other artifact hate because affinity wins through aggro which is stopped anyway. I don't run more wraths because I just fog aggro. I don't run Pithing Needle because Nevermore is more general, etc.
Rest in Peace: Because the Eldrazi or Gaea's Blessing need an answer. Also helps stop some combos.
Angel's Grace: Stops "I win" combos (e.g. Hive Mind pacts) which can get through your fogs.
Open the Vaults: Because if the opponent knows how fog works, he won't kill the fogs. He'll kill the turbo, and then you can't win in 16 or 18 turns. Also, modern has awesome removal (Maelstrom Pulse...sigh) and this helps somewhat.
Hopefully this is inspiring! Haha.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
4 Darkness
4 Fog
4 Holy Day
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Think Twice
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guidlage
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
4 Maze's End
When I originally came up with the list, I was using Treasure Cruise instead of Think Twice, and I only have Think Twice as a placeholder for now until I find something more suitable. I prefer this wincon rather than mill because I don't like helping my opponent draw into answers. My biggest worry is cards like Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge. But, really, this is just a deck that I thought would be worth the small amount of money it would cost to build.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
I think Myth Realized fits more in a control shell, rather than turbofog. In turbofog, it's just going to eat every piece of creature removal that's just sitting around taking up space in the opponent's hand, or get chump blocked by the opponent's formerly useless creatures. Back when I was running Luminarch Ascension, I've even had opponents Path to Exile my Angel tokens. If I really wanted to play a creature, though, I'd choose something which can protect itself and has some sort of evasion to actually connect. A bonus would be if it helps out the gameplan. Empyrial Archangel would be nice. Something like Inkwell Leviathan might be ok too.
I don't know if you can call a deck turbofog without turbo... Nevertheless, maybe Rites of Flourishing would help you reach Maze's End faster? And with the fogs you have, you're going to die to direct damage pretty fast - how about Riot Control? Finally, any benefit from running fogs instead of a 5c control shell with land tutors like Ancient Stirrings, Sylvan Scrying whatnot?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
It's not just about direct damage. Lifegain is sometimes (oftentimes) relevant. As I mentioned previously:
Can we have some discussion about turbofog (and maybe comments about my list and card choices) rather than Maze's End combo, anyway?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
ScepteFog Primer Archive
Was hoping for more than a link to a 2-year old decklist and thread, but still...
Do you think Isochron Scepter (and the 2-for-1 if you get it destroyed) is usable in a metagame where BGx is the most common colour combination and Abrupt Decay is seemingly everywhere?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Its a valid concern but I would cautiously say yes, as a 2-of or so. If you get 1 use out of scepter you break even, regardless of Abrupt Decay. Think of scepter as a late game lock piece, after theyve used up what little artifact removal they main deck against Howling Mines / Jaces etc. In any case there is some decent discussion on that thread. Would be nice if a mod combine the 3-4 threads we have floating around for this topic into one non-archived thread.
Hmmm...I think the only creature I'd want to add would be Empyrial Archangel. Otherwise, you're just giving their creature kill spells a function beyond blank cardboard...
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Lands
1 Breeding Pool
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Forest
1 Island
3 Plains
2 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
3 Stonehorn Dignitary
4 Angel's Grace
2 Ethereal Haze
2 Holy Day
2 Dawn Charm
3 Mana Leak
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Riot Control
Sorceries
3 Supreme Verdict
Enchantments
2 Rites of Flourishing
Artifacts
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Howling Mne
Planeswalker
2 Venser, the Soujourner
3 Pithing Needle
2 Spellskite
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Cryptic Command
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
I should probably have some number of Leylines in the board for discard and burn(this mainly). Pithing Needle is there for Karn Liberated, Sigarda is there for Emrakul and Living End(Narrow). I haven't had a chance to sleeve the deck up, but it seems ultra-trolly. The venser/stonehorn lock maybe cute, but is brutal for majority of decks because attacking is the primary win condition in Modern atm. Elixir is there to pretty much re-feed everything back in the deck, as it's power should not be underestimated(Also keeps you from decking.)
23 Lands seems a little light and it should probably be 24. I am also sure i can change the ration of Fog effects.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
#1: Hivemind is a random combo deck you can run into, and we need an out to that. Angel's grace answers it, but angels grace is pretty useless in other confrontations.
#2: Melira combo is also a deck, and most of our fogs can't dodge that. Its still a rarer deck to run into.
#3: Tron is also a deck, and emrakul is hard to answer since we need to tap him down. Second, the draw out win con doesnt work very well against an eldrazi shuffle.
Which means we need an alt win con to get around this. There are a few options.
Mazes end - Works well with our turbo effects, especially Rite of flourishing
Felidar Sovereign - Going with a steady life gain plan that drags our life total upwards over the course of the game seems decent, but I think felidar will just eat removal.
Azor's Electors - Probably will eat removal over the course of 5 turns.
Overall I think maze's end is our best bet. We don't have to worry about removal, land destruction won't effect us if we run a couple life from the loam. Seems good.
It's an awesome idea which somehow I feel compelled to build, but at that point you might as well play Tooth and Nail into Emmy. At which point you stop playing turbofog. Honestly, I don't think including a subpar combo like Maze's End is the way to go. Emmy and friends are worrisome, yeah, but you can just play Nevermore. Or Bribery. I'm more worried about blue-based combo decks like Merfolk or Fairies that can just keep baiting Fogs until they build up enough critical mass and counters to one shot you.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
This is what i was toying with up til eidolon of the great revel was printed and then I started playing my other pet deck, burn:
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Godless Shrine
2x Drowned Catacomb
1x Watery Grave
3x Plains
3x Swamp
2x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Howling Mine
3x Temple Bell
2x Font of Mythos
1x Spiteful Visions (also a win con)
4x Ethereal Haze
3x Batwing Brume
4x Holy Day
4x Darkness
3x Dawn Charm
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Ulamog of the Infinite Gyre
1x Meddling Mage
1x Nevermore
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Detention Sphere
2x Deprive (should be remand)
1x Negate
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elixir of Immortality
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Jace, Memory Adept
The last 15 for sideboard were for the meta I faced before eidolon at my shop. It obviously needs tweaking now since the meta has shifted some. Also, I have been wanting to try a different wincon than dreams and visions. Ive been thinking about using a lock down combo like academy ruins and mindslaver. I use to run a fun thing with silence and megrim / lilianas caress that worked pretty well. I avoided green bc there's nothing in green that really excites me to play it over any other color. I avoided creatures in general to blank their removal and wrath. I also don't like the idea of running snapcaster. Sure he's a flash block but he's easily outclassed by most cards in modern and he makes our 1 mana fogs 3 mana since we use 2 to cast snaps and 1 to flashback the fog. I main board leyline bc of burn, storm, and other combos that target. Sb was set up against Tron, burn, living end, and counters for stuff that stops fogging at instant speed ( grand abolisher ) or for twin.
If you want some advice, I'll get back to help in a bit
From your list, I wouldn't run cards specific to a MU unless everyone you play is playing tron. Swan songs are sb material. Same with negates. Why are you running boseiju (sp)? I guess it's maybe bc you're running higher costing fogs which you don't want countered. I run 1 drop fogs so if they counter one, I can easily play another. Why are you running mikokoro? plenty of draw from mines effects. No need for this land nor reliquary tower. I find that unless I'm against a control deck, I'm tapping most of my mana to play stuff and that things I discard aren't all that important such as extra fogs and lands which then are cycled back in with elixir. towards the end, I started running 2 elixirs with ulamog in the sb
Think we should add some videos/bitacores of the hardest matchups we can face in order to check out the interactions and develop methods for getting over those decks.
For instance, I've been using Memorylapse's latest scepterfog deck on OCTGN, and I think it's really cool, but I had to tweak the sb a bit as his deck was made 2 years ago.
It worked just fine vs. Affinity, but I lost due to my own inexperience. Didn't know affinity played so many counterspells.
I had plenty of troubles against Mono Green Eldrazi, but that was before tweaking the sb. Still I think it's a really tough matchup, as we tend to slow things out, and they grow stronger as the turns go by.
Mono green eldrazy really scared the s*** outta me so most of my hate is focused on that and Tron.
I've also beaten Melira combo(podless) imprinting ethereal hazeon isochron scepterso his murderous redcapwouldn't hurt me once he goes off with the combo. G2 I sideboarded Rest in peaceand leyline of sanctity and I got them on my opening hand, so after drawing, fogging, and milling him for a while, he scooped.
Well I guess that's all my experience.
Some cards that I would like to include somewhere are Jace's erasure , altar of the brood , Forced fruition, but I think those might make the deck less consistent regarding turbo and fog.
I'll share my decklist later on. Kinda busy right now.
Cheers.
Edit: This is the deck I'm based on. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-deck-creation/221650-scepterfog-a-fairly-polished-turbofog-variant?comment=53