scepter is fun in this deck. I used to run it a while back but eventually took it out due to the meta at my shop having a lot of jund. They have way too many ways to deal with it but it can be a distraction for them to hit it instead of our turbo pieces. I also think in the end I needed the slots for other cards. One thing I do that most don't is main deck leyline. I may revisit the isochron plan after I play a bit at my shop and see what the meta is now. From what I've Been Told there is quite a few e-tron and a little bit of everything. I'm still a little weary of turbo in my lgs because of e-tron, Tron, and 2 Ad nauseam players. My ley-line will beat their main wincon but they usually go after lab man and win from there with pact backup
so i got my set of approaches in the mail. plan on playing 3 for now. i strongly feel this is our best wincon atm but only testing will prove it. the only issue i have with it is its mana cost meaning that we need 8 mana minimally to cast it and fog unless the 7 life is enough to get us out of lethal combat damage
I've always loved the idea of TurboFog. I have a list concept, and a few comments/questions related to it/the deck in general. I haven't really time to test, just been brainstorming first. Anyway, here's the concept:
I tried to skimp on win-conditions so that multiples don't clog up your hand. I also tried to make the win-cons difficult to interact with to provide inevitability. I focused on mono-white to allow me more freedom with the manabase, and I think there's a lot of neat things you can do with it.
1) Why don't people just go mono-white? It seems like there are enough options for the deck in this color. White has great sideboard cards, and the best fog effects. It's possible it even has the best win-cons too (Approach of the Second Sun). Mono-white also gives you a lot of freedom with your manabase, which is really nice.
2) In terms of keeping velocity of the deck, why not use more lands which can replace themselves? Even cycle lands at 2 mana are fine since with 4 mana you can cycle + play a fog effect. Of course, not being mono-colored makes this more difficult. I like Horizon Canopy quite a lot.
3) Is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn not a good win-condition? This gives you a viable card in face of removal/counterspells, or can be discarded to reshuffle and using decking as a backup win-condition. I feel like a single copy really lets you skimp on win-conditions, which is nice. Storage lands can power him several turns earlier, although that may be too cute.
first off let me say its been ages and the meta is vastly, and i mean vastly different, since i last played so i may use dead archtypes that dont mean anything anymore but the point is still there.
emrakul, without being cheated in, is too slow imo. yes we are in it for the long game but by the time we cast it, in a non green version, theres a good chance the opponent is able to win, in the cases of burn, tron, and any combo deck rly. against decks trying to beat us down, my question would be... why? they will nvr beat us with their gameplan and will mill out naturally or lose to our faster than emrakul win con.
ive never tried cycle lands bc the ones id like to play cipt. theres turns where i want to drop my win con and have a fog up and usually, for me, that involves keeping 1 mana open after playin my wincon. if its a cipt land, i have to wait another turn to do this. if i cycle it, i could hit an untapped land or another turbo piece or fog but personally, i think the main reason i dont play them is because why do we want to or need to? we play anywhere from 10-12 cards that draw us cards. i usually dont need anythong other than that and if youre keeping a hand without a turbo piece, even with cyleing land, youre gonna find yourself in trouble more oftwn than not bc you didnt keep a hand with at least 1 turbo piece.
as far as going mono white... absolutely possible and great to save us life in some instances from fetching and shocking. white is a strong color in its ability to have hate from most angles that we can throw in the sb but i personally think the 2nd or 3rd color options are just better. black has discard, and better costed removal, outside of path, has a few win cons that play with the draw strategy, and has cards to strip decks of their threats like memoricide and what not, plus adds a 1 mana fog. blue has counterspells and better mill options in jaces or other cards in the enchantment side of things. green has more 1 mana fogs and has big beefy tramplers that a lot of times are undercosted, and has ramping spells or ramping turbo pieces that would help cast stuff like eldrazi much quicker. red has burn and more options through which we can cause chaos with the drawing like visions and inquiry. do we need the other colors, maybe not but i feel lists are stronger with an additional color. i think have the versatility against more decks with haveing better instant speed answers makes the deck better.
our bad mu's are burn, tron, and control from my experience. yes theres more out there so theres more arguments out there. mono white against burn: we have all the tools in mono to deal with it. leyline, lifegain, runed halo type effects, or even cop red.
w/x against burn is the same ordeal. not much i can say id fight burn with that isnt white.
tron: mono white gas ways of dealing with tron that slower at reacting. they play karn, ugin, o stone, or even worse, chalice on our dominate cc. you have no great way of stopping it on the stack outside of like mana tithe or lapse of certainty , which we wouldnt play so we would rely on having pithing needle, o ring, etc. this gives them a chance to respond, unless you get needle first and know what you want to call with it. chalice against me and my ALL 1 MANA FOGS list is crushing. having needle sb helps but also having negate or even sadistic sacrament, yes its 3 black but is doable with a good mana base, is a huge step in stoping not only chalice but stoping threats in their deck. etron is obviohsly more creature based so this is different.
control: mono white has less 1 mana fogs without another color. our deck will act like burn against them. they will stockpile counters and try to out counter our fogs. in mono white, theres three 1 mana fogs. green adds 1 more and black does as well. issue is, we loom at all the fogs in white. most lists i see that are mono white run angelsong for the fog and cycling, riot control for lifegain and fog, safepassage for burn protection and fog. issue here is we dilute the cheap fogs for niche better protection fogs and then we weaken ourselves to the counter war. we better ouselves to a chalice on 1 but we lose to control. it also hurts us when we want to cast a wincon and leave a fog up. now instead of saving 1 mana, i have to save 2 or even 3. theres just vetter options and choices with a 2nd color. and mana bases now are getting so good that we could do a 2 or 3 color base without shocks almost. im not saying mono white isnt good enough or good in general, but i like having better options. in mono whote our wrath would probably be *** or doj. with blue, i will nvr step away from supreme verdict. uncounterable wrath that i can easily cast turn 4 with my mana base and having counters in the sb as a catch all to the most problematic cards i come against. black i probably wouldnt leave either due to the black leyline, discard options, and with wincons such as underworld dreams, megrim, or planeswalkers. theres also my fav fog against decks that go wide or make infinite creatues in batwing brume.
theres always a way to win in mono but my personal feelings are that we have better options in splashing. maybe not 3 colors like i am but at least 2. id love to hear more from you on the topic and what you think.
I like turbofog in concept, but there are a lot of threats that the deck has trouble dealing with (in my limited testing). Planeswalkers are very problematic, tron feels impossible (Ulamog just exiles your library, Karn restarts the game), and we have basically no interaction against combo decks. I'm not really sure how to fix these issues. Of course, the deck does pretty well against creature strategies. But at that point, why not just run an Ensnaring Bridge deck? So we essentially need to keep our consistency + have tools to deal with these problematic matchups.
Green is a nice splash, since rites of flourishing is a good card to have access to, as is fog. Thrun, the Last Troll gives you hope against control. I liked only having the two win-cons, since that way they don't gum up your hand a lot. Salt-crusted Steppe has been a great tool to ramp up to these spells sooner than you would be able to normally.
The manabase is a bit wonky; it's been awhile, so I honestly can't remember why I was playing that exact manabase.
I've decided to breathe new life into this archetype by filling some of the holes it currently has.
One of the fundamental rules of magic is to be able to adequately access your role. (An aggro deck is sometimes the control deck, ie playing against another aggro deck that has a more threatening start or against the new bridgevine lists that start with multiple vengvines. Same goes for control mirrors. One is the control and one is the aggro. This can flip flop back and forth depending on what's in play and hands) All that said, we have to look at this deck and decide if it's the aggro deck (almost never) or the control deck (nearly always) and play accordingly.
What all this means to you, the turbo fog pilot: You are the control player up until the moment you play your wincon. Whether it be Approach or something else like Emmy, Elixir, etc. As the control player you have to be ready to defend against different avenues of attack. The deck is great at defending against creatures that tap to deal combat damage, but the archetype seems to suffer against any other manner of aggression. Ie combo, big mana, counters, etc. Here are my suggestions on viable alternatives.
TRON:
Its been stated countless times above that this is almost unwinnable. Some players have gone so far as to just write this matchup off and call it an auto loss. Right now in this current meta that is almost acceptable. The flavor of the month decks are running rampant with UR Tempo, Bridgevine, and Humans making up a decent size of meta. HOWEVER we have recently been gifted new tools that make this matchup a lot easier. Two cards printed recently work as a hedge to defeat the Tron player handily.
Play 3-4 Field of Ruin. This is a control players bread and butter these days, and should be no different for us as we are the control deck in this matchup. When played early Field can keep them off the turn 3 slow tron, usually done with star into map. And fast tron when we are on the play. Buying you just a few extra turns is all you need. Reason why is the next few cards. Alpine Moon. Wait! Are you crazy! Red doesn't belong in Turbo fog! I was of this mindset for the longest time also. I've played turbo fog since Timeshift. This is the first time I've ever made this suggestion, but hold your hearts, when you see why certain red cards are being suggested you will understand. What does this do to the tron player? First let's assume you field one of the tron pieces then moon another type of tron land. The odds they can assemble tron in the next 6 or 7 turns becomes very very low. They will need to replace the missing land and either Karn or Oblivion stone the moon out of existence. This buys you time. And we know all we need is time. Other uses of Alpine Moon include naming Celestial Collinade, Horizon Canopy, Field of Ruin, Raging Ravine, Ghost Quarter, etc. When time is given to turbo fog it become inevitable.
Tron runs very few basics. This opens the door to Crucible of Worlds and Tectonic Edge. I suggest 2 Crucible and 1 Tectonic Edge main deck. Crucible functions just fine in the main because of cycle lands combined with Field and Edge. Nimble Obstructionist is a card I've been testing as a 2 of recently. It has many many uses. Blocks Mantis Rider, counters fetch activation against mana starved opponents, but this is about Tron. Counters map, counters Oblivion Stone, counters Annilator, counters a Karn activation, counters both eldrazi shenanigans. Then when it's bad it can be cycled away.
These cards make GR Tron, Eldrazi Tron both palatable. Mono U Tron is untested at the time of this article.
Next up is Burn:
Here comes the next red card! OMG! Lightning Helix. Helix is a great card in many matchups. Humans, burn, elves, merfolk, etc. This and Alpine Moon are worth the splash. Lightning Helix buys you time. Time is all we need to win. Helix gives you an out against Eidolon of the great Revel. Which before would mean certain loss. Not only countering his ability but netting you one life. This should be played as 2-4 copies main in every turbo fog build moving forward.
The last new addition I suggest to hedge against burn is a single main copy of Renewed Faith. This is a card with only a single purpose, but does it magnificently well. It's never a dead card. Almost always cycle but when you need that big life gain it's available to you.
Main deck Leylines make this matchup far from unwinnable.
Next we have combo:
The cards mentioned above are the cards I've included in the main deck as they are so versatile. Between Nimble Obstructionist, Renewed Faith, Lightning Helix, Leyline of Sanctity you should be able to seal a good bit of these matche ups.
When I think combo I typically go to Storm. Leyline turn 0 is typically enough game one to autowin. That leaves 2 games in ideal situations and you only need to win 1. After you board out most of your removal and bring in more answers they will typically try again and again to combo you while failing each and every time.
Another combo deck is Vizier Druid. This comes down to great to bad. If you start off with Leyline in play they can't simply combo you out before finding an answer to it. This is where the turbo fog aspect of turbo fog excels. (Imagine that)
If you do not have it then the next best out you have is Lightning Helix and sweepers. Yes, it's possible to Helix a druid in response to Vizier and then destroy everything they have built up.
Any other combo decks you are having problems with let me know and we can create a board to help you.
Last point is we need to actually be able to win the game.
I'm going to list the 3 best wincon options and their advantages in no particular order.
Approach of the Second Sun
Pros: The life gain is enormous
No questions asked if the Second cast resolves. You win.
Cons: I've had games where the Second cast was countered and the last copy was countered as well. This led me to lose as was my only wincon at the time. This led me to include Boseiju, who shelters all. While this isn't a terrible idea it does lead to some painful starts in games where it's one of you few starring lands. But is great if you expect counters as the option of countering your fogs and then attacking for lethal is therefore removed as an option.
Elixir of Immortality
Pros: Great amount of lifegain. This was my go to choice for the longest time.
Works as a wincon by making the opponent deck. This is both a pro and con because if the opponent has anything you can't answer you will lose the game and probably the match since turbo fog doesn't have a high gear.
Con: Causes you to win by decking your opponent. I've had games where the artifact was milled or countered. Usually play 2 but if you insist on going this route I would strongly suggest 1 copy of Buried Ruin. This combined with Crucible of Worlds and Elixir make it very unlikely your opponent will have a solid answer for everything. Pretty much only jund can do this. Takes great timing and playing a combination of cards in quick succession.
Aetherling: My new SB wincon.
Pros: Board him in after opponent boards out removal makes him the ultimate unkillable terminator.
Will save fogs as after sweepers as it can block, and most often kill, the opponents single creature.
Provides an unblockable 3 turn clock.
Cons: Its expensive to cast and protect.
As the only creature you will cast it will eat all targeted removal the opponent left in. This has led me to include 1 Haunted Fengraf as a means to get it back should it be milled or countered.
I suggest going with 1 or 2 options or doubling up on a single option and use the card linked in its segment to ensure you are not easily disrupted. All have good uses. Such as Boseiju makes your fogs uncounterable. Buried Ruin allows you to play spellbombs to effect the game in other ways. Pyrite Spellbomb is great against burn and humans while Nihil Spellbomb is good against the KCI matchup. Fengraf is great because you can keep bringing back Obstructionists as another wincon, card advantage, or stifle effect.
A little more on the new cards in Turbo fog on how it applies to turbo fog.
Field of Ruin: While clearly not a fog, in fact not a single card suggested is a fog, this disrupts the opponent's manabase. Which then buys you time to set up and take control.
Tectonic Edge: This is a straight concession to the Tron matchup. While not completely useless since we have Crucible of Worlds in other matchups, it is designed to work as a better field against Tron. Ideally you will field the tron lands which gets them basics. Then the Edge comes in and cleans up the rest of the tron lands while simultaneously lowering their land count. This keeps them off of Wurmcoil, Stones, Karn, Uligmog, etc.
Alpine Moon: The effect is not symmetrical. You can name Field of Ruin and still activate yours while eliminating theirs. This keeps blue traditional control off of counters, manlands, and will eventually make them so mana starved you are saving fogs in hand and they cannot muster an offense. When something gets through you have more fogs and sweepers to answer them.
Nimble Obstructionist: This is just a great card with many roles. First thing it does is counter harmful effects while also replacing itself. It can function as a clock, but that is rare indeed, but it's main purpose is a different form of disruption than we had access to previously. Things I have targeted with it include oblivion Stones, eldrazi triggers (including Emmy annihilation then fog and wrath following turn against breach), planeswalkers ultimates, map activation, storm trigger, Detention Sphere exile effect targeting turbo piece, Detention Sphere returning effect when I had a planeswalker exiled, fetchlands, storm trigger, storm trigger, storm trigger.
Lightning Helix: We are Turbo Fog, resistance is futile. This saves us an early fog by killing the creature and buffering our life total. Plays in nearly every matchup. Against storm you can Helix Boral and Goblin Electromancer, against humans hit Mantis Riders and Boots, against burn any target is fine. Against goodstuff taxes or valuetown you want Cat Jesus, flickerwisp, any of the legends, golem tokens. Doing this can easily be considered a fog. You gain the life the other creatures would deal while also reducing the damage if the next attack which further saves your fogs.
Renewed Faith: This is a big one. It effectively fogs a single big attacker in alot of games. It's not uncommon against eldrazi Tron to Supreme Verdict and they fire back with a 5/5 haster. Burn can play a good amounts of beats and leave you close to no life once you get fogs online. Against Jaskai it basically counters the bolt part of bolt snap bolt. And when it's dead it gives you a little buffer and replaces itself. I've had this play a critical role against UW control where the Collinade attack brought me down to 2 life from a cycled Faith way earlier in the game.
Congrats. Yep I'm feeling what you are. For the longest time I tried to have 14 or so fogs, but recently noticed all you need is a little more than 7. Repel seems like an odd fit since humans is such a big part of the meta though. Feels like Dawn Charm would be the better choice. Or even Angelsong to cycle and flashback with snappy.
Sorry guys that the site won't let me edit my previous post(s).
Was considering throwing together mono-white for funsies since my locals is a bit more on the casual side.
Some of the fog effects could go out if there's stuff that could be there in its place. Threw a playset of O-rings in there because generic removal.
Sideboard isn't really set yet, it'll probably have at least 4x Pithing Needle and however many Stony Silence, etc.
Anyways just checking that there isn't anything terribly wrong with it. The reason I'm not splashing another color is because I'm on a bit of a budget (I already have the Leylines).
Was considering a few Isochron but decided against it since I figured they'd just get popped too easy.
If that's just against casual decks then it should be fine. Could probably drop a planes for a sweeper. In this build I'd probably suggest Settle the Wreckage.
If wanting to make it a bit stronger I'd suggest dropping at least 2 Lullaby for 2 more sweepers. Those can be Wrath or Judgement.
If you have 1 or more crucible of worlds they could be slotted in here as well. Since you may get your Boseiju destroyed and not be able to resolve an Elixer or Approach. But really not critical. Adding that card in stresses counter control decks. With their mana base always under attack by replaying fields and should Boseiju get ghosted or fielded to make Approach uncounterable once again.
SB Timely Reinforcements, and Rip if you have them.
Tron imo is the worst matchup but my cyborg is almost predominantly aimed at them. Plus I kind of feel like it's on a decline with the rise of humans and other aggro decks. Planeswalkers to me just depend on which ones they're playing. Teferi, jace, karn and liliana are the worst. I spy board for those too. I don't have issues with control but I've also been playing burn long enough to know that you just sand bags your fog when they try to have a counter War. basically we sideboard against Tron burn control and Planeswalkers. Most combos have to target you and thats why i main 4 copies of leyline. It also will stop some random effects from targeting you (back in the day, 8 rack, storm, scapeshift, some planeswalker abilities, etc)
@megatog
Alpine moon would be great. But i dont think i would go into red for 1 card. Against burn, maindeck leylines wins us g1 most of the time outside of eidolon. I will enevitablly mill them before they get me to cast enough spells to die from it. Sb has runed halo or circle of pro red that deal with it, and in CoP red, most of what they do. Helix isnt gonna do much for us against them. It kills off at best 4 creatures (1 creature per copy) and gains us life but if they dont forfit, they will draw all their burn and kill us in the end. In the end, i will run the new sphere over alpine moon bc it deals against tron and storm. Crucible to me seems unnecessary. Field of ruin is a good idea and I may need to look into the idea of changing my Mana base. Im not saying youre wrong or dont do it but i agree with Valtrex that we would need to see a list because all these cards that you are suggesting main deck would have to replace some things and personally I just don't see the deck being turbofog anymore if we run all the suggestions you're making. I think we turned more into a land destruction deck than anything else. I also don't believe we should run main deck answers against Decks that we have a lot less chance of seeing at a big event. If this is a Friday Night Magic type of thing then maybe I could see main deck answers for certain metas but I mostly play in big events where Tron does she play but I'm more likely to see aggro and combo then Tron specifically and I personally don't feel combo or control is as bad as everyone thinks. One last thing as far as our wincons... I think that one of our top three best win conditions is still the mindslaver lock. We can get to 10 mana pretty easily especially if someone is running a version with green and having really only one piece that is Interactive for our opponent out of a two card combo that wins the game is pretty good. Once we drop down that low on fogs, i dont know if we are turbofog anymore. I feel we turn more into u/x or u/x/x control with 7 durdle cards. But i do feel that its do-able and im sure it does have better mu's in some case than traditional turbofog. I dont thibk i will ever drop from my 14-16 range though. I love how my list operates at the moment but i dont rly play as much as i use to. I've gotten to that stage in my magic career that I just enjoy playing Commander more than anything else and would really like to get a cube finished
Anyone take note that this guy 5-0'd three leagues last month with a Bant Turbo Fog deck? The deck is a combination of fog and taking turns effects. I've been testing it myself and it runs very well - ramping into planeswalkers and taking over the game with Time Warp.
Needs more Gigadrowse. You need to be running this as a 4-of if you're in blue. It has sooooooooooooooooooo many uses.
-you can tap their lands out on upkeep
-you can tap out creatures as a fog effect
-you can tap down UW lands on their end step
-you can tap a pesky blocker before you combo out on turns
-you can tap howling mine to prevent a draw
The only reason to run green is Rites of Flourishing, which can in fact net you that extra land when u cast it to fog. Arbor Sprawl is proven, but Steve needs no combo... and chumps.
Combining Fog with Turns is nothing new. It's the deck with the very best late game in the entire meta. You tap them out with gigadrowse and just take turn after turn with whatever creatures you have available or deck them with a jace. That deck laughs at Tron for an auto-win.
Expected Metagme
-Burn
-Storm
-Tron
-UW Control
-Dredge
-Hardened Affinity
Been having problem with hardened affinity because of Walking Ballista. Against Burn the problem has been Eidolon, hence Gideon's Intervention as I couldn't get runed halo. For dredge, Creeping Chill is annoying and gets me to Conflagrate range for lethal.
I'm just trying to be cute with Sphinx's Revelation comboing off with Sphinx's Tutelage
Sideboard is a bit of a mess.
Do I really need stony silence for my affinity matchup?
I'm kind of uneasy with tron and how my only plan is to delay him for enough turn to win with approach.
That isn't a bad wincon. Personally if I run a creature I tend to go for hexproof and uncounterable. I do not feel we need stony silence against affinity but I've never had an issue just fogging them to death. But balista is an issue. I run main deck leyline but sb i run counters and removal. I also run CoP red for burn.
Went to a 100+ player tournament and ended up with a 0-5 drop record
I was not matched up with a single aggro deck and yet all my other friends have complained about the number of aggro decks they've been matched with.
My matchup were as follows
1.BG/x who has 4 ass trophy and 4 abrupt, 2 pulse main. On the day that I decided to try out isochron scepter
2. Thing in the Ice
3. UW control
4. 8 Rack who prepared fully against leyline of sanctity
What did 8 rack have for leyline besides discard? Thats a mu that i aggressively mull for leyline. Jund or the rock are hard bc of those cards specifically. Control can be hard if we cant get going. We have to hold fogs to out do their counters.
Anyone running simic? You get fogs, u get Steve, u get Nissa ults the turn you play her. Rites of Flourishing conveniently let's you play an additional land for fog. The deck becomes a lot more blue but that opens up some super awesome cards like that blue replicate spell that costs U and Taps ANY permanent. I see you assembled Tron. Good look casting stuff on your upkeep. I see your holding up Mana for counterspell... Your end step I'm tapping your lands.
Nissa arent all that great and green offers us fogs and big creatures. My issue with green is that unless you stay creatureless, we activate more cards in their deck to use. Greens biggest advantage imo is its creatures. Otherwise, you can do everything green can in white. Gigadrose is good and great for those running blue but unless you win, it does nothing but fog for 1 turn or tap them down. Take your tron example. Good you got em for a turn. Ok... next turn they drop karn and its pretty much over from there. The counterspell e ample would be nice but i try to hold up enough fogs not to worry about there counters but it is very viable at casting something you need to get through. I agree
Ahh. You are correct. I looked at the legal in and for some reason modern isn't listed. But yes it can be played. How's it working out?
// 8 Artifact
4 Temple Bell
4 Howling Mine
// 1 Creature
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// 4 Enchantment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
// 25 Instant
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Holy Day
4 Angelsong
4 Batwing Brume
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
1 Settle the Wreckage
8 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Saltcrusted Steppe
1 Calciform Pools
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Irrigated Farmland
1 Approach of the Second Sun
1 Wrath of God
I tried to skimp on win-conditions so that multiples don't clog up your hand. I also tried to make the win-cons difficult to interact with to provide inevitability. I focused on mono-white to allow me more freedom with the manabase, and I think there's a lot of neat things you can do with it.
1) Why don't people just go mono-white? It seems like there are enough options for the deck in this color. White has great sideboard cards, and the best fog effects. It's possible it even has the best win-cons too (Approach of the Second Sun). Mono-white also gives you a lot of freedom with your manabase, which is really nice.
2) In terms of keeping velocity of the deck, why not use more lands which can replace themselves? Even cycle lands at 2 mana are fine since with 4 mana you can cycle + play a fog effect. Of course, not being mono-colored makes this more difficult. I like Horizon Canopy quite a lot.
3) Is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn not a good win-condition? This gives you a viable card in face of removal/counterspells, or can be discarded to reshuffle and using decking as a backup win-condition. I feel like a single copy really lets you skimp on win-conditions, which is nice. Storage lands can power him several turns earlier, although that may be too cute.
emrakul, without being cheated in, is too slow imo. yes we are in it for the long game but by the time we cast it, in a non green version, theres a good chance the opponent is able to win, in the cases of burn, tron, and any combo deck rly. against decks trying to beat us down, my question would be... why? they will nvr beat us with their gameplan and will mill out naturally or lose to our faster than emrakul win con.
ive never tried cycle lands bc the ones id like to play cipt. theres turns where i want to drop my win con and have a fog up and usually, for me, that involves keeping 1 mana open after playin my wincon. if its a cipt land, i have to wait another turn to do this. if i cycle it, i could hit an untapped land or another turbo piece or fog but personally, i think the main reason i dont play them is because why do we want to or need to? we play anywhere from 10-12 cards that draw us cards. i usually dont need anythong other than that and if youre keeping a hand without a turbo piece, even with cyleing land, youre gonna find yourself in trouble more oftwn than not bc you didnt keep a hand with at least 1 turbo piece.
as far as going mono white... absolutely possible and great to save us life in some instances from fetching and shocking. white is a strong color in its ability to have hate from most angles that we can throw in the sb but i personally think the 2nd or 3rd color options are just better. black has discard, and better costed removal, outside of path, has a few win cons that play with the draw strategy, and has cards to strip decks of their threats like memoricide and what not, plus adds a 1 mana fog. blue has counterspells and better mill options in jaces or other cards in the enchantment side of things. green has more 1 mana fogs and has big beefy tramplers that a lot of times are undercosted, and has ramping spells or ramping turbo pieces that would help cast stuff like eldrazi much quicker. red has burn and more options through which we can cause chaos with the drawing like visions and inquiry. do we need the other colors, maybe not but i feel lists are stronger with an additional color. i think have the versatility against more decks with haveing better instant speed answers makes the deck better.
our bad mu's are burn, tron, and control from my experience. yes theres more out there so theres more arguments out there. mono white against burn: we have all the tools in mono to deal with it. leyline, lifegain, runed halo type effects, or even cop red.
w/x against burn is the same ordeal. not much i can say id fight burn with that isnt white.
tron: mono white gas ways of dealing with tron that slower at reacting. they play karn, ugin, o stone, or even worse, chalice on our dominate cc. you have no great way of stopping it on the stack outside of like mana tithe or lapse of certainty , which we wouldnt play so we would rely on having pithing needle, o ring, etc. this gives them a chance to respond, unless you get needle first and know what you want to call with it. chalice against me and my ALL 1 MANA FOGS list is crushing. having needle sb helps but also having negate or even sadistic sacrament, yes its 3 black but is doable with a good mana base, is a huge step in stoping not only chalice but stoping threats in their deck. etron is obviohsly more creature based so this is different.
control: mono white has less 1 mana fogs without another color. our deck will act like burn against them. they will stockpile counters and try to out counter our fogs. in mono white, theres three 1 mana fogs. green adds 1 more and black does as well. issue is, we loom at all the fogs in white. most lists i see that are mono white run angelsong for the fog and cycling, riot control for lifegain and fog, safepassage for burn protection and fog. issue here is we dilute the cheap fogs for niche better protection fogs and then we weaken ourselves to the counter war. we better ouselves to a chalice on 1 but we lose to control. it also hurts us when we want to cast a wincon and leave a fog up. now instead of saving 1 mana, i have to save 2 or even 3. theres just vetter options and choices with a 2nd color. and mana bases now are getting so good that we could do a 2 or 3 color base without shocks almost. im not saying mono white isnt good enough or good in general, but i like having better options. in mono whote our wrath would probably be *** or doj. with blue, i will nvr step away from supreme verdict. uncounterable wrath that i can easily cast turn 4 with my mana base and having counters in the sb as a catch all to the most problematic cards i come against. black i probably wouldnt leave either due to the black leyline, discard options, and with wincons such as underworld dreams, megrim, or planeswalkers. theres also my fav fog against decks that go wide or make infinite creatues in batwing brume.
theres always a way to win in mono but my personal feelings are that we have better options in splashing. maybe not 3 colors like i am but at least 2. id love to hear more from you on the topic and what you think.
Tyler
// 8 Artifact
4 Temple Bell
4 Howling Mine
// 1 Creature
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// 8 Enchantment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rites of Flourishing
// 22 Instant
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Holy Day
2 Angelsong
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Fog
3 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Saltcrusted Steppe
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
3 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Temple Garden
// 1 Sorcery
1 Approach of the Second Sun
4 Pithing Needle
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
I like turbofog in concept, but there are a lot of threats that the deck has trouble dealing with (in my limited testing). Planeswalkers are very problematic, tron feels impossible (Ulamog just exiles your library, Karn restarts the game), and we have basically no interaction against combo decks. I'm not really sure how to fix these issues. Of course, the deck does pretty well against creature strategies. But at that point, why not just run an Ensnaring Bridge deck? So we essentially need to keep our consistency + have tools to deal with these problematic matchups.
Green is a nice splash, since rites of flourishing is a good card to have access to, as is fog. Thrun, the Last Troll gives you hope against control. I liked only having the two win-cons, since that way they don't gum up your hand a lot. Salt-crusted Steppe has been a great tool to ramp up to these spells sooner than you would be able to normally.
The manabase is a bit wonky; it's been awhile, so I honestly can't remember why I was playing that exact manabase.
One of the fundamental rules of magic is to be able to adequately access your role. (An aggro deck is sometimes the control deck, ie playing against another aggro deck that has a more threatening start or against the new bridgevine lists that start with multiple vengvines. Same goes for control mirrors. One is the control and one is the aggro. This can flip flop back and forth depending on what's in play and hands) All that said, we have to look at this deck and decide if it's the aggro deck (almost never) or the control deck (nearly always) and play accordingly.
What all this means to you, the turbo fog pilot: You are the control player up until the moment you play your wincon. Whether it be Approach or something else like Emmy, Elixir, etc. As the control player you have to be ready to defend against different avenues of attack. The deck is great at defending against creatures that tap to deal combat damage, but the archetype seems to suffer against any other manner of aggression. Ie combo, big mana, counters, etc. Here are my suggestions on viable alternatives.
TRON:
Its been stated countless times above that this is almost unwinnable. Some players have gone so far as to just write this matchup off and call it an auto loss. Right now in this current meta that is almost acceptable. The flavor of the month decks are running rampant with UR Tempo, Bridgevine, and Humans making up a decent size of meta. HOWEVER we have recently been gifted new tools that make this matchup a lot easier. Two cards printed recently work as a hedge to defeat the Tron player handily.
Play 3-4 Field of Ruin. This is a control players bread and butter these days, and should be no different for us as we are the control deck in this matchup. When played early Field can keep them off the turn 3 slow tron, usually done with star into map. And fast tron when we are on the play. Buying you just a few extra turns is all you need. Reason why is the next few cards.
Alpine Moon. Wait! Are you crazy! Red doesn't belong in Turbo fog! I was of this mindset for the longest time also. I've played turbo fog since Timeshift. This is the first time I've ever made this suggestion, but hold your hearts, when you see why certain red cards are being suggested you will understand. What does this do to the tron player? First let's assume you field one of the tron pieces then moon another type of tron land. The odds they can assemble tron in the next 6 or 7 turns becomes very very low. They will need to replace the missing land and either Karn or Oblivion stone the moon out of existence. This buys you time. And we know all we need is time. Other uses of Alpine Moon include naming Celestial Collinade, Horizon Canopy, Field of Ruin, Raging Ravine, Ghost Quarter, etc. When time is given to turbo fog it become inevitable.
Tron runs very few basics. This opens the door to Crucible of Worlds and Tectonic Edge. I suggest 2 Crucible and 1 Tectonic Edge main deck. Crucible functions just fine in the main because of cycle lands combined with Field and Edge.
Nimble Obstructionist is a card I've been testing as a 2 of recently. It has many many uses. Blocks Mantis Rider, counters fetch activation against mana starved opponents, but this is about Tron. Counters map, counters Oblivion Stone, counters Annilator, counters a Karn activation, counters both eldrazi shenanigans. Then when it's bad it can be cycled away.
These cards make GR Tron, Eldrazi Tron both palatable. Mono U Tron is untested at the time of this article.
Next up is Burn:
Here comes the next red card! OMG! Lightning Helix. Helix is a great card in many matchups. Humans, burn, elves, merfolk, etc. This and Alpine Moon are worth the splash. Lightning Helix buys you time. Time is all we need to win. Helix gives you an out against Eidolon of the great Revel. Which before would mean certain loss. Not only countering his ability but netting you one life. This should be played as 2-4 copies main in every turbo fog build moving forward.
The last new addition I suggest to hedge against burn is a single main copy of Renewed Faith. This is a card with only a single purpose, but does it magnificently well. It's never a dead card. Almost always cycle but when you need that big life gain it's available to you.
Main deck Leylines make this matchup far from unwinnable.
Next we have combo:
The cards mentioned above are the cards I've included in the main deck as they are so versatile. Between Nimble Obstructionist, Renewed Faith, Lightning Helix, Leyline of Sanctity you should be able to seal a good bit of these matche ups.
When I think combo I typically go to Storm. Leyline turn 0 is typically enough game one to autowin. That leaves 2 games in ideal situations and you only need to win 1. After you board out most of your removal and bring in more answers they will typically try again and again to combo you while failing each and every time.
Another combo deck is Vizier Druid. This comes down to great to bad. If you start off with Leyline in play they can't simply combo you out before finding an answer to it. This is where the turbo fog aspect of turbo fog excels. (Imagine that)
If you do not have it then the next best out you have is Lightning Helix and sweepers. Yes, it's possible to Helix a druid in response to Vizier and then destroy everything they have built up.
Any other combo decks you are having problems with let me know and we can create a board to help you.
Last point is we need to actually be able to win the game.
I'm going to list the 3 best wincon options and their advantages in no particular order.
Approach of the Second Sun
Pros: The life gain is enormous
No questions asked if the Second cast resolves. You win.
Cons: I've had games where the Second cast was countered and the last copy was countered as well. This led me to lose as was my only wincon at the time. This led me to include Boseiju, who shelters all. While this isn't a terrible idea it does lead to some painful starts in games where it's one of you few starring lands. But is great if you expect counters as the option of countering your fogs and then attacking for lethal is therefore removed as an option.
Elixir of Immortality
Pros: Great amount of lifegain. This was my go to choice for the longest time.
Works as a wincon by making the opponent deck. This is both a pro and con because if the opponent has anything you can't answer you will lose the game and probably the match since turbo fog doesn't have a high gear.
Con: Causes you to win by decking your opponent. I've had games where the artifact was milled or countered. Usually play 2 but if you insist on going this route I would strongly suggest 1 copy of Buried Ruin. This combined with Crucible of Worlds and Elixir make it very unlikely your opponent will have a solid answer for everything. Pretty much only jund can do this. Takes great timing and playing a combination of cards in quick succession.
Aetherling: My new SB wincon.
Pros: Board him in after opponent boards out removal makes him the ultimate unkillable terminator.
Will save fogs as after sweepers as it can block, and most often kill, the opponents single creature.
Provides an unblockable 3 turn clock.
Cons: Its expensive to cast and protect.
As the only creature you will cast it will eat all targeted removal the opponent left in. This has led me to include 1 Haunted Fengraf as a means to get it back should it be milled or countered.
I suggest going with 1 or 2 options or doubling up on a single option and use the card linked in its segment to ensure you are not easily disrupted. All have good uses. Such as Boseiju makes your fogs uncounterable. Buried Ruin allows you to play spellbombs to effect the game in other ways. Pyrite Spellbomb is great against burn and humans while Nihil Spellbomb is good against the KCI matchup. Fengraf is great because you can keep bringing back Obstructionists as another wincon, card advantage, or stifle effect.
A little more on the new cards in Turbo fog on how it applies to turbo fog.
Field of Ruin: While clearly not a fog, in fact not a single card suggested is a fog, this disrupts the opponent's manabase. Which then buys you time to set up and take control.
Tectonic Edge: This is a straight concession to the Tron matchup. While not completely useless since we have Crucible of Worlds in other matchups, it is designed to work as a better field against Tron. Ideally you will field the tron lands which gets them basics. Then the Edge comes in and cleans up the rest of the tron lands while simultaneously lowering their land count. This keeps them off of Wurmcoil, Stones, Karn, Uligmog, etc.
Alpine Moon: The effect is not symmetrical. You can name Field of Ruin and still activate yours while eliminating theirs. This keeps blue traditional control off of counters, manlands, and will eventually make them so mana starved you are saving fogs in hand and they cannot muster an offense. When something gets through you have more fogs and sweepers to answer them.
Nimble Obstructionist: This is just a great card with many roles. First thing it does is counter harmful effects while also replacing itself. It can function as a clock, but that is rare indeed, but it's main purpose is a different form of disruption than we had access to previously. Things I have targeted with it include oblivion Stones, eldrazi triggers (including Emmy annihilation then fog and wrath following turn against breach), planeswalkers ultimates, map activation, storm trigger, Detention Sphere exile effect targeting turbo piece, Detention Sphere returning effect when I had a planeswalker exiled, fetchlands, storm trigger, storm trigger, storm trigger.
Lightning Helix: We are Turbo Fog, resistance is futile. This saves us an early fog by killing the creature and buffering our life total. Plays in nearly every matchup. Against storm you can Helix Boral and Goblin Electromancer, against humans hit Mantis Riders and Boots, against burn any target is fine. Against goodstuff taxes or valuetown you want Cat Jesus, flickerwisp, any of the legends, golem tokens. Doing this can easily be considered a fog. You gain the life the other creatures would deal while also reducing the damage if the next attack which further saves your fogs.
Renewed Faith: This is a big one. It effectively fogs a single big attacker in alot of games. It's not uncommon against eldrazi Tron to Supreme Verdict and they fire back with a 5/5 haster. Burn can play a good amounts of beats and leave you close to no life once you get fogs online. Against Jaskai it basically counters the bolt part of bolt snap bolt. And when it's dead it gives you a little buffer and replaces itself. I've had this play a critical role against UW control where the Collinade attack brought me down to 2 life from a cycled Faith way earlier in the game.
Next post will be the suggested decklist.
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instant
3 Ethereal Haze
1 Renewed Faith
4 Dawn Charm
4 Angelsong
3 Lightning Helix
Artifact
4 Howling Mine
2 Crucible of Worlds
Enchantment
1 Alpine Moon
3 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Detention Sphere
Sorcery
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Snapcaster Mage
Land
5 Island
2 Planes
1 Mountain
3 Field of Ruin
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Aetherling
1 Lightning Helix
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Detention Sphere
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Negate
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Cerimonus Rejection
1 Nimble Obstructionist
This is kinda where I am now. I'd love to fit in one more Alpine Moon in the board.
Any other suggestions and I would love to hear them.
4 Holy Day
4 Ethereal Haze
4 As Foretold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cryptic Command
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Serum Visions
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
4 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Approach of the Second Sun
4 Repel the Abominable
Sideboard:
4 Luminesce
3 Pay No Heed
4 Kami of False Hope
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
Sorry guys that the site won't let me edit my previous post(s).
Some of the fog effects could go out if there's stuff that could be there in its place. Threw a playset of O-rings in there because generic removal.
Sideboard isn't really set yet, it'll probably have at least 4x Pithing Needle and however many Stony Silence, etc.
Anyways just checking that there isn't anything terribly wrong with it. The reason I'm not splashing another color is because I'm on a bit of a budget (I already have the Leylines).
Was considering a few Isochron but decided against it since I figured they'd just get popped too easy.
4x Ethereal Haze
4x Holy Day
4x Angelsong
4x Dawn Charm
4x Pollen Lullaby
4x Howling Mine
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Field of Ruin
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
If wanting to make it a bit stronger I'd suggest dropping at least 2 Lullaby for 2 more sweepers. Those can be Wrath or Judgement.
If you have 1 or more crucible of worlds they could be slotted in here as well. Since you may get your Boseiju destroyed and not be able to resolve an Elixer or Approach. But really not critical. Adding that card in stresses counter control decks. With their mana base always under attack by replaying fields and should Boseiju get ghosted or fielded to make Approach uncounterable once again.
SB Timely Reinforcements, and Rip if you have them.
-1 Plains
-4 Lullaby
+1 Settle the Wreckage
+2 Wrath of God
+2 Crucible
I'll probably have at least around 100-ish to throw at the deck so hopefully I can pick everything up.
I completely approve. Anyone else have ideas?
@megatog
Alpine moon would be great. But i dont think i would go into red for 1 card. Against burn, maindeck leylines wins us g1 most of the time outside of eidolon. I will enevitablly mill them before they get me to cast enough spells to die from it. Sb has runed halo or circle of pro red that deal with it, and in CoP red, most of what they do. Helix isnt gonna do much for us against them. It kills off at best 4 creatures (1 creature per copy) and gains us life but if they dont forfit, they will draw all their burn and kill us in the end. In the end, i will run the new sphere over alpine moon bc it deals against tron and storm. Crucible to me seems unnecessary. Field of ruin is a good idea and I may need to look into the idea of changing my Mana base. Im not saying youre wrong or dont do it but i agree with Valtrex that we would need to see a list because all these cards that you are suggesting main deck would have to replace some things and personally I just don't see the deck being turbofog anymore if we run all the suggestions you're making. I think we turned more into a land destruction deck than anything else. I also don't believe we should run main deck answers against Decks that we have a lot less chance of seeing at a big event. If this is a Friday Night Magic type of thing then maybe I could see main deck answers for certain metas but I mostly play in big events where Tron does she play but I'm more likely to see aggro and combo then Tron specifically and I personally don't feel combo or control is as bad as everyone thinks. One last thing as far as our wincons... I think that one of our top three best win conditions is still the mindslaver lock. We can get to 10 mana pretty easily especially if someone is running a version with green and having really only one piece that is Interactive for our opponent out of a two card combo that wins the game is pretty good. Once we drop down that low on fogs, i dont know if we are turbofog anymore. I feel we turn more into u/x or u/x/x control with 7 durdle cards. But i do feel that its do-able and im sure it does have better mu's in some case than traditional turbofog. I dont thibk i will ever drop from my 14-16 range though. I love how my list operates at the moment but i dont rly play as much as i use to. I've gotten to that stage in my magic career that I just enjoy playing Commander more than anything else and would really like to get a cube finished
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-bant-turbo-fog#paper
-you can tap their lands out on upkeep
-you can tap out creatures as a fog effect
-you can tap down UW lands on their end step
-you can tap a pesky blocker before you combo out on turns
-you can tap howling mine to prevent a draw
The only reason to run green is Rites of Flourishing, which can in fact net you that extra land when u cast it to fog. Arbor Sprawl is proven, but Steve needs no combo... and chumps.
Combining Fog with Turns is nothing new. It's the deck with the very best late game in the entire meta. You tap them out with gigadrowse and just take turn after turn with whatever creatures you have available or deck them with a jace. That deck laughs at Tron for an auto-win.
Here is my list
4 Ethereal Haze
3 Angelsong
4 Dawn Charm
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell
4 Day of Judgment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Approach of the Second Sun
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Sphinx's Tutelage
3 Damping Sphere
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gideon's Intervention
Expected Metagme
-Burn
-Storm
-Tron
-UW Control
-Dredge
-Hardened Affinity
Been having problem with hardened affinity because of Walking Ballista. Against Burn the problem has been Eidolon, hence Gideon's Intervention as I couldn't get runed halo. For dredge, Creeping Chill is annoying and gets me to Conflagrate range for lethal.
I'm just trying to be cute with Sphinx's Revelation comboing off with Sphinx's Tutelage
Sideboard is a bit of a mess.
Do I really need stony silence for my affinity matchup?
I'm kind of uneasy with tron and how my only plan is to delay him for enough turn to win with approach.
What do you guys think of Kefnet, the Mindful as a faster way to kill?
Went to a 100+ player tournament and ended up with a 0-5 drop record
I was not matched up with a single aggro deck and yet all my other friends have complained about the number of aggro decks they've been matched with.
My matchup were as follows
1.BG/x who has 4 ass trophy and 4 abrupt, 2 pulse main. On the day that I decided to try out isochron scepter
2. Thing in the Ice
3. UW control
4. 8 Rack who prepared fully against leyline of sanctity
5. Jeskai Control