But for black, id say run underworld dreams and the hag that is an enchantment creature that does the same thing but i strongly suggest splashing blue for verdict. Uncounterable wrath is nice
Or maybe we can run the urborg + karma combo. Or run gideon, champ of justice and once hes big enough for lethal, wrath, animate, and swing but path and stuff exist so...
Hows your jund mu? My recent experience has been miserable since they pulse/decay the turbo and use liliana to tear my hand apart along with thoughtseize and what not. Can you post your list. What do you do against tron???
So I've been playing the WU version of this deck with sphinx's tutelage as the wincon and 4 muddle the mixture in the 75 to tutor a bunch of side board pieces or protect my fogs and turbo pieces.
I've found some interesting side board tech for Tron or really any deck running big mean fatties like gifts or polymorph. Bribery lets you search an opponents library for a creature card and cheat it into play on your side. Tron doesn't play the original emrakul any more but ulamog and new emrakul are just fine on our side. By itself it doesn't seem to be enough, like how leyline isn't enough by itself against burn, but I'm thinking of adding crucible of worlds to the side board for recurring ghost quarters for the win again them as well. too bad I can't muddle for crucible of worlds.
Also against the burn match up I've found that the card peace of mind goes along way towards evening the match up in allowing you to stabilize. between leyline of sanctity for most of the burn, sphinxes tutelage going crazy on what's fundamentally a mono red deck and peace of mind countering eidolon and giving us breathing room the match up seems about 50/50 with losses feeling a like they were really close rather then a forgone conclusion.
Don't play suppression field though, it interacts weirdly with some stuff and it even crashes the game at times. For instance, it made me pay each time I wanted to play a shockland for some reason.
Oh, and at least on my phone it gets kinda laggy whenever you're in a complex board situation. I was flooding my opponent with Assemble the legion, and when I tried to swing for lethal, it took ages to resolve, and my phone eventually locked its screen due to time inactive, and when I tried to resume the game it just went black.
Probably is just my crappy phone, or maybe is because the app is still developing, or both..
Still, I had a couple matches with a Nahiri list against AI's playing dredge (I just copied a tier list from mtggoldfish) and it worked wonders.
Nahiri's good synergy with turbofog.
Still, I'd like to see those esper builds you're talking about.
DeathwishJoe: Yeah, they don't seem to play ol' school emmy anymore, but stealing an ulamog is steal a good deal. Keys against tron are killing their manabase,and/or slowing them down to eventually bribery an ulamog. Crucible of worlds would be fun in a Land Destruction deck using tectonic edge as well for instance, but here, without ghost quarter is mostly a dead draw, which we can't afford against tron due the inevitability of the deck and our slow paced playstyle.
On UW you can try stuff like spreading seas/sea's claim/convincing mirage for attacking their manabase, then aura of silence/stony silence/suppression field to slow their early artifacts, pithing needle/nevermore for planeswalkers/oblivion stone-like stuff, or just play a good array of counterspells and such.
Burn, Leyline obviously, and some number of cards dedicated to Eidolon of the great revel like runed halo/aura of silence or plain removal like celestial purge/path to exile.
Mostly if we don't get a turn 0 Leyline of sanctity we'll need some stuff to survive until we land it. G1 maindeck repel the abominable/dawn charm can help, but it's unlikely to be enough since each card we use to prevent a lightning bolt to our face, it's a turn we can't use it for creatures. Maindeck monastery siege is something I'm willing to try, it won't stop them dead, but certainly will slow them down. Also remember skullcrack and atarka's command pwn us. G2 we have to care also about their removal getting rid of our leylines, nevermore was my answer against that, but I cut it in order to improve my tron MU. So the answer here seems to be lifegain until leyline.
TBQH now that I remember it's been a while since the last time I faced burn, so I could be a tad out of touch against it.
Id say go either dreams or tutelage but not both. Out of the sb for you 2nd wincon. If your focusing on both, it will pull you one way or the other and youd be better doubling up on either effect than running both
I was thinking on both because there are trons and melira decks, so for one side milling is not an option, but hitting life for the other side isn't aswell. Still have 20 fogs, may I can cut 2 for adding 2 Temple Bell, and having a bit more chance to draw a wincon card and improving their effects.
I havent rly found a good way to beat tron yet. Any permanent based win con rly doesnt work against them. What we need imo is a way to strip their deck of their threats. I hvae nvr won a game agaonst tron so the way i see it, have some sb for it and some sb aginst burn and then hope not to play against it. I was boadring like 10 hard counters bc they work against both trons stuff and burn spells. But mono blue tron seems to just be miserable bc if they get the mana to always buyback spell burst or whatever, its hard to fight through
The only thing against tron, for what I can think, is Pithing Needle against karn, stone and the other planeswalker, and Ensnaring Bridge, but those are a lot of cards and need luck to draw all of them
Thats yhe problem... we need so many answers to tron. Its crazy. Bc both karn and ugin hurt. O stone hurts. Newlamog hurts. I mean... wurmcoil is nothing but we have a hard time against most of their deck. Over half my sb is against tron. But what we need is cards that deal with both tron and karn bc those are our worst mus in my opinion. Control can be difficult but if we play smart we should be fine. Ive beaten control before. I havent beaten tron yet. Especially mono blue. Id probably board in counters, needle, ways to strip their deck of threats.
I have beaten RG tron by drawing boarded bribery a couple of times and once by milling them off tutelage, and have won a game one getting lucky basically by drawing my 2 counters and 2 snappies and milling their good stuff. That is it really. Mono U - yuk, only tested casually but never won, or even come close to. Felt like I needed Boil and a hundred other things in there, which is then pushing my colors and making the deck no longer Turbo Fog. Gifts tron was not much better. Iona.....ouch.
I might try Thing In the Ice from the board, but currently have other projects. Am waiting for a few more flexible fogs @ la dawn charm and really for the meta to change.
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Iona would suck. Yeah. I have 1 guy who plays mono blue tron in my store and hes pretty good. I also have a ad nauseum player who placed 13th in a recent big event of 500 something players who ive played against a few times and hes definitely one of the best in memphis
I do not post on here very much but I have a "Turbo Fog" that has done very well for me in my local area. It is not a fantastic build but it seems to be consistent enough to win.
Has anyone ever messed around with a Jeskai build? I feel like the good fog variants are in white and the addition of blue+red would allow us access to Fevered Visions and Keranos.
How do you guys feel about that new pay 50 life Target player loses 50 life or gets dealt 50 damage as a win con for us? Obviously we would have to include continuous life game but that would help our burn mu and for those Decks that would kill our win con Mill is still an option with a secondary wincon out of the sideboard. Or we could run chalice of life as the win con with lifegain
Hows your jund mu? My recent experience has been miserable since they pulse/decay the turbo and use liliana to tear my hand apart along with thoughtseize and what not. Can you post your list. What do you do against tron???
So I've been playing the WU version of this deck with sphinx's tutelage as the wincon and 4 muddle the mixture in the 75 to tutor a bunch of side board pieces or protect my fogs and turbo pieces.
I've found some interesting side board tech for Tron or really any deck running big mean fatties like gifts or polymorph. Bribery lets you search an opponents library for a creature card and cheat it into play on your side. Tron doesn't play the original emrakul any more but ulamog and new emrakul are just fine on our side. By itself it doesn't seem to be enough, like how leyline isn't enough by itself against burn, but I'm thinking of adding crucible of worlds to the side board for recurring ghost quarters for the win again them as well. too bad I can't muddle for crucible of worlds.
Also against the burn match up I've found that the card peace of mind goes along way towards evening the match up in allowing you to stabilize. between leyline of sanctity for most of the burn, sphinxes tutelage going crazy on what's fundamentally a mono red deck and peace of mind countering eidolon and giving us breathing room the match up seems about 50/50 with losses feeling a like they were really close rather then a forgone conclusion.
Read and download from here (no spam intended, just sharing). http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14534
Don't play suppression field though, it interacts weirdly with some stuff and it even crashes the game at times. For instance, it made me pay each time I wanted to play a shockland for some reason.
Oh, and at least on my phone it gets kinda laggy whenever you're in a complex board situation. I was flooding my opponent with Assemble the legion, and when I tried to swing for lethal, it took ages to resolve, and my phone eventually locked its screen due to time inactive, and when I tried to resume the game it just went black.
Probably is just my crappy phone, or maybe is because the app is still developing, or both..
Still, I had a couple matches with a Nahiri list against AI's playing dredge (I just copied a tier list from mtggoldfish) and it worked wonders.
Nahiri's good synergy with turbofog.
Still, I'd like to see those esper builds you're talking about.
DeathwishJoe: Yeah, they don't seem to play ol' school emmy anymore, but stealing an ulamog is steal a good deal. Keys against tron are killing their manabase,and/or slowing them down to eventually bribery an ulamog. Crucible of worlds would be fun in a Land Destruction deck using tectonic edge as well for instance, but here, without ghost quarter is mostly a dead draw, which we can't afford against tron due the inevitability of the deck and our slow paced playstyle.
On UW you can try stuff like spreading seas/sea's claim/convincing mirage for attacking their manabase, then aura of silence/stony silence/suppression field to slow their early artifacts, pithing needle/nevermore for planeswalkers/oblivion stone-like stuff, or just play a good array of counterspells and such.
Burn, Leyline obviously, and some number of cards dedicated to Eidolon of the great revel like runed halo/aura of silence or plain removal like celestial purge/path to exile.
Mostly if we don't get a turn 0 Leyline of sanctity we'll need some stuff to survive until we land it. G1 maindeck repel the abominable/dawn charm can help, but it's unlikely to be enough since each card we use to prevent a lightning bolt to our face, it's a turn we can't use it for creatures. Maindeck monastery siege is something I'm willing to try, it won't stop them dead, but certainly will slow them down. Also remember skullcrack and atarka's command pwn us. G2 we have to care also about their removal getting rid of our leylines, nevermore was my answer against that, but I cut it in order to improve my tron MU. So the answer here seems to be lifegain until leyline.
TBQH now that I remember it's been a while since the last time I faced burn, so I could be a tad out of touch against it.
Cheers.
SST.
So, after watching some cards along this topic, I came with this:
4 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Fog Cards
4 Holy Day
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Dawn Charm
4 Pollen Lullaby
4 Darkness
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Underworld Dreams
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
Lands
4 Watery Grave
4 Godless Shrine
2 Fetid Heath
4 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
As many of you have much more knowledge about this kind of deck, how do you see the list?
Then, I was thinking on putting Sphinx's Tutelage to sideboard and add Luminarch ascension, so, we can put a bit more preasure on their life losing.
I might try Thing In the Ice from the board, but currently have other projects. Am waiting for a few more flexible fogs @ la dawn charm and really for the meta to change.
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Fog
4 Holy Day
4 Angelsong
4 Rune Snag
2 Martial Coup
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
3 Wrath of God
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Lumbering Falls
3 Forest
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Plains
2 Island
1 Halimar Depths