I try to stick to harder counters (i.e. not leak effects) and aim at 2 cc and 1cc, so that I can fog as well. 3cc is pushing it I think.
How many counters ensure we stop everything Tron does? I can't get more than 7 into the 75, although elixir would help.
Running two snappies may help as well, flashback into fogs or counters sounds flexible.
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So after doing research, there are 4, two mana hard counters I'd play against tron, 3 of which would help against burn. negate , countersquall , disdainful stroke , and deprive . We could also play delay but that's not a lot of time to win against them so I could potentially run 15 counters in the board. Things to counter in tron are o-stone, karn, ugin. Other versions of tron.... mindslaver , platinum angel . And as far as snaps goes... not a big fan of him. That's me personally. Sure we get a blocker and flashback a spell but id rather just run another fog or another counter over him. I dont want to pay 3 mana to play a fog when I could just cast another 1 mana fog. Same with counters... why pay 3 or 4 for a counter when I can just play another 2 copies of a 2 cmc counter? The blocker isn't relevant enough for me and they hold all their removal bc they don't se a lot of creatures so he probably wouldn't even get to block and running a way to kp our hand full may not be a bad idea but by the time they've got 7 counters in hand, I usually have 7 fogs in hand and their counters cost more than my fogs to cast. The issue I have is someone at my shop plays 8 moon and runs chalice main. Setting those at 1 would kill me. Lol. But that's another thing that counters would take care of. What is in your sb that you have to have?
The mods just made me the OP of this thread, and I'm periodically updating/working on it, mostly on week days as on weekends I'm kinda busy.
It's stil pretty much the same primer, but I filtered card choices by color/CMC, as well as adding new cards and some comments on them as well, and some other stuff I can't remember right now.
Go, take a look and tell me anything I can improve on it. Matchups is the next item on the pipeline (strategies, card choices, difficulty, etc.), then updated members' decklists, then redaction/format issues. Or maybe I do everyithing at the same time.
Comments, reviews, insults, death threats, mail bombs are encouraged.
Snappy does likely allow the midgame choice of either a fog/dawncharm counter/ deprive once you hit 4 mana, which is nice. Before that his main issue is that he is not a fog until you have cast one. I am looking at trying to increase flexibility, because I want to run some counters main. I also try to run fogs over the 1-3cc curve, with riot control at the top end, where it shines in the burn match. I want to not be dead to chalice as some decks run it here. I am currently @ 7 1cc fogs, 4 angelsong/4 dawncharm, 2 riot control. The 1cc fogs are essential for casting a turbo element like my solitary baby Jace or mine and still being able to fog, but late in the game I find myself short on control elements rather than fogs.
Good luck with the primer, I have not read the original primer. EDIT- just did- it is a bit short and needs more exposition, especially on the options regarding colours.
Everyone likes a full card choice section which covers all the possibilities, in my experience those are what I got most requests about for my primers- as long as a strategy overview and a matchup section is there you can't go wrong.
Man... last night was a little bit of a disappointment. I'm gonna take a little time off to redo my turbosmog. I triedon't counters in the board and sadly didn't see them in 2/3 games. I played. My first match was against ad nauseum and he had turn 3 or 4 ad with grace and lightning stormed me. G2 I had the t0 LoS and boarded in 8 counters. I didn't see any of them but he proceeded to repeat the first game but he pulled out lab maniac and then dropped Serum visions. 0-2
G2 was affinity... not much to say here... the girl played well but sheven couldn't beat what the deck is designed to win against. 2-0
Third game was against borosilicate burn. I had t0 LoS but no turbo in my hand. I lasted like 8 or 9 turns of him swinging with 2 Swiftspears and bolting himself but he finally at 2 life (I had taken damage pretty early bc he mulled to 5 and I usually try to fog after I hit ~13 life but he got me to 9) and I ran out of fogs so he shifted me to death. G2 I had LoS but he dropped t2 eidolon, again running 6 counters, 1 o-ring, 1 d-sphere, and didn't see them. Just was bad from that point on. Play mistakes on my behalf but to be 100% honest, I was wasn't really planning to play. I was there to get cards for my next modern deck and for edh and I was wanting to play edh more. They needed 1 more for modern to fire so I hopped in even though I was trying to reconstruct turbo. 2-4
Wasn't rly wanting to play but eh. There's hardly any aggro in my meta so the deck feels so out of place right now. I've moved to 2 different states in 5 yrs and everywhere I've been, it's been aggro centric so I thrived and now it's combo centric or odd decks I have hardly played against or have never played against (8 moon, 8 rack, ad nauseum, etc)
Hard lines on that. When it does not go your way in Modern it really can not go your way.
One of the reasons I am keen to incorporate a few cards from pillow-fort or permanent control decks is the presence of hyper combo decks like Ad Nauseam that don't win via the usual routes. Grishoalbrand is similar with its damage to the dome. Some permanents can act as pseudo-fogs preventing damage in their own way. I still want fogs in large numbers, but if I can run 15-17 fogs and a few pseudo-fogs I fancy my chances more than running 25 fogs, especially as Angelsong cycles and we have the turbo element to get me to the other damage prevention effects.. I do use the 4 dawn charms that can counter the g1 Lightning Storm, but that is unlikely to win me too many game ones. I use 2 Leylines main, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Story Circle to give me a fighting chance (remembering I run 2 Deprive and am trying Muddle the Mixture main too). Game 2 they always go for the Maniac win, although we have to respect the damage route, so stopping the Ad Nauseam is key, whether by counters or by preventing them casting Angel's grace and Ad Nauseam via Rule of Law effects (I know they can still go for an Unlife the previous turn). That Zur's Weirding ploy may work too, preventing them drawing the few relevant cards they have, though I have not tested that yet, its just a hunch. As I mentioned previously I own Ad Nauseam, and like most decks it they always have two plans, making it harder to win by just traditional fogs......
Yeah... that's why I boarded in 8 counters for ad nauseum but I didn't see them. I'm working on a new list and a different deck for modern but I've been real big on edh lately so. I'm sort of the reason my store is working on a point system and a league so they ask me a lot of questions and ask me to be there a bunch. In the past 2 weeks since I moved here, I've been in the shop everyday but 2
I might just literally have to go for the 8 counter board for Tron too, adding to the 3 main. I doubt Zur's tech will work without discard to hit their hand. If I Increase the number of snappies to 2 that potentially is a lot of counters. Even allowing for World Breaker and Ulamog to take out the odd bit of turbo on casting, it might just be enough to keep them off my back long enough to mill them with Tutelage or a Jace down (5cc one).
If I get a build I am happy with I will post it. My main is up to about 56 cards of 100% certainty, and the remaining slots down to a couple of similar choices.
The sideboard strategies for Tron and combo are key for me to be satisfied as you'd expect. Nobody wants an auto-lose.
It takes so long to develop a deck that is so off the radar, but because this one is so binary (you play affinity, etc. you just win) its been a bit quicker than normal- there are swathes of decks that any TF deck just beat. I have been working on this as a sideline to Legacy for a couple of months, but am not expecting anything final till June or later. I entered with the aim of making a TF deck that very often beats aggro but can control enough to beat combo. I accept that Tron etc. will always be bad game 1, all I want is something to give me a reasonable chance of getting game 2. I want to keep the turbo fog theme, but am prepared to be flexible on cutting the fogs down. If I lose the odd non-burn aggro games because I don't quite get enough fogs but gain against midrange Jund, control and combo to have an even chance I will be happy......
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Yeah... I need to spend time to break down the deck and re-build it from the ground up. Tutelage doesn't work well here. 3 color decks and affinity tend to dodge the color matching.
There's an event coming up on the 28th. I'm sadly looking to play something different just due to my meta. unless my cards that I ordered make a pretty good difference against tron and jund... yeah.
I couldn't tell if it'd be hard to pull off or not since I haven't actually tried it, but the draw engines should make it easier to get the parts together..
I already pack an eldrazi for reshuffling, so probably including 4x polymorph, a couple low CMC manlands, and/or some lingering souls/timely reinforcements or cards of the sake shouldn't be that hard, they may eventually serve as blockers if needed, or even as <weak> wincons.
Yes... main deck is 61 bc I have a very hard time just losing to decks G1 that target for the win. Ie. Storm, burn, ad nauseum, scapeshift, 8 rack, etc. I ran a similar version in the past but ran Megrim and lilianas caress over netsuke and visions. Decided I'd give this a try but I'm thinking I might take out 1 silence and 1 render silent for 2 LoS. And find something for the sb in those 2 slots. What do you guys think?
There's no real good way to beat burn and tron. Jund can be a challenge and same as ad nauseum. Control can build up counters on when when they get you close to being dead and may have more counters than you do fogs. It's rly a meta choice. If you have all affinity, zoo, rdw (not so much burn), and decks that have no way of getting out from under a Leyline of sanctity, then this deck is amazing. When you face combo/control, it is hard and thus isn't good enough to top tier. Tron is a bug part of the meta and now there's a new way to get emmy into play and we can't deal with emmy if it comes into play and swings
Hi, what in this deck doesn't work? Why it is not in the developing competitive section?
Well if you look at the RW lockdown thread in the stickied section you will see that RW lockdown has 3 SCG finishes in about 8 months and still has not been promoted. It is worth noting that decks don't get demoted, so to put a deck up requires lots of evidence.
As Tyler says Tron and burn are hard-impossible with standard builds of a TF, and control is hard.
@Tyler
I have been looking at Tron and the only board plan that gives me a chance is a transformational board to take me up to 8/9 counters and a couple of snapcasters plus annoyance cards like Stony Silence.
I am looking at Bribery as an option. Casting it for 7 mana (5 + 2 back up for a negate/deprive)could be brutal. It might get better if USA goes down the Nahiri route, one to consider, perhaps as a board card.
Burn is not as bad for me as I am using a few pillow-fort options- a Runed Halo, a Leyline, a Story circle, a Peace of Mind and 2 of my fogs (riot control) gain life. Its not easy though, although Tutelage rocks against them. If they use skullcrack then dawn charm becomes useful in the counter mode. As board cards for this match I am going down the route of a sanctimony/Kor firewalker split.
I would like to try Thing in the Ice main, with 15 fogs, counterspells and snapcasters that is a lot of instants to switch them on. The main issue is that by playing a dude you switch on otherwise dead cards. it might be the sort of card that does the job against tron style decks......
The GP here is Standard, I thought they were all Standard this weekend?
I have been running Bribery in the board for Tron, it can be really sweet but with a large counter suite post board and couple of snappies sometimes the deck just works before it gets relevant.
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Bribery wouldn't be bad if we can land it before we get in trouble.
I wait till seven mana, cast it, and hold a counter back- ensuring one hit with Ulamog if he is in the deck.
If I don't draw another counter or snappy from the 8, then the worst that can happen is they kill Ulamog after he has milled them 20 cards, if I do have another counter I win. Seems like a better deal than trying to mill them and hope they don't draw and cast ulamog. If they board Ulamog out G3 I am in a better place anyway.
Really I still need the 8 counters post board, but I feel I have a good chance g2/3.
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Worst matchup is still stupid Tron, but it's not unwinnable with 4 Ghost Quarter Mainboard... followed by burn.. And I've played against a mono black devotion... Gary is the worst feeling ever against you..
And maybe I'm alone on this because i think the control matchups are not that hard.. At least from my experience.. maybe the players are bad..
How many counters ensure we stop everything Tron does? I can't get more than 7 into the 75, although elixir would help.
Running two snappies may help as well, flashback into fogs or counters sounds flexible.
It's stil pretty much the same primer, but I filtered card choices by color/CMC, as well as adding new cards and some comments on them as well, and some other stuff I can't remember right now.
Go, take a look and tell me anything I can improve on it. Matchups is the next item on the pipeline (strategies, card choices, difficulty, etc.), then updated members' decklists, then redaction/format issues. Or maybe I do everyithing at the same time.
Comments, reviews, insults, death threats, mail bombs are encouraged.
Good luck with the primer, I have not read the original primer. EDIT- just did- it is a bit short and needs more exposition, especially on the options regarding colours.
Everyone likes a full card choice section which covers all the possibilities, in my experience those are what I got most requests about for my primers- as long as a strategy overview and a matchup section is there you can't go wrong.
G2 was affinity... not much to say here... the girl played well but sheven couldn't beat what the deck is designed to win against. 2-0
Third game was against borosilicate burn. I had t0 LoS but no turbo in my hand. I lasted like 8 or 9 turns of him swinging with 2 Swiftspears and bolting himself but he finally at 2 life (I had taken damage pretty early bc he mulled to 5 and I usually try to fog after I hit ~13 life but he got me to 9) and I ran out of fogs so he shifted me to death. G2 I had LoS but he dropped t2 eidolon, again running 6 counters, 1 o-ring, 1 d-sphere, and didn't see them. Just was bad from that point on. Play mistakes on my behalf but to be 100% honest, I was wasn't really planning to play. I was there to get cards for my next modern deck and for edh and I was wanting to play edh more. They needed 1 more for modern to fire so I hopped in even though I was trying to reconstruct turbo. 2-4
Wasn't rly wanting to play but eh. There's hardly any aggro in my meta so the deck feels so out of place right now. I've moved to 2 different states in 5 yrs and everywhere I've been, it's been aggro centric so I thrived and now it's combo centric or odd decks I have hardly played against or have never played against (8 moon, 8 rack, ad nauseum, etc)
One of the reasons I am keen to incorporate a few cards from pillow-fort or permanent control decks is the presence of hyper combo decks like Ad Nauseam that don't win via the usual routes. Grishoalbrand is similar with its damage to the dome. Some permanents can act as pseudo-fogs preventing damage in their own way. I still want fogs in large numbers, but if I can run 15-17 fogs and a few pseudo-fogs I fancy my chances more than running 25 fogs, especially as Angelsong cycles and we have the turbo element to get me to the other damage prevention effects.. I do use the 4 dawn charms that can counter the g1 Lightning Storm, but that is unlikely to win me too many game ones. I use 2 Leylines main, 1 Runed Halo, 1 Story Circle to give me a fighting chance (remembering I run 2 Deprive and am trying Muddle the Mixture main too). Game 2 they always go for the Maniac win, although we have to respect the damage route, so stopping the Ad Nauseam is key, whether by counters or by preventing them casting Angel's grace and Ad Nauseam via Rule of Law effects (I know they can still go for an Unlife the previous turn). That Zur's Weirding ploy may work too, preventing them drawing the few relevant cards they have, though I have not tested that yet, its just a hunch. As I mentioned previously I own Ad Nauseam, and like most decks it they always have two plans, making it harder to win by just traditional fogs......
If I get a build I am happy with I will post it. My main is up to about 56 cards of 100% certainty, and the remaining slots down to a couple of similar choices.
The sideboard strategies for Tron and combo are key for me to be satisfied as you'd expect. Nobody wants an auto-lose.
It takes so long to develop a deck that is so off the radar, but because this one is so binary (you play affinity, etc. you just win) its been a bit quicker than normal- there are swathes of decks that any TF deck just beat. I have been working on this as a sideline to Legacy for a couple of months, but am not expecting anything final till June or later. I entered with the aim of making a TF deck that very often beats aggro but can control enough to beat combo. I accept that Tron etc. will always be bad game 1, all I want is something to give me a reasonable chance of getting game 2. I want to keep the turbo fog theme, but am prepared to be flexible on cutting the fogs down. If I lose the odd non-burn aggro games because I don't quite get enough fogs but gain against midrange Jund, control and combo to have an even chance I will be happy......
I couldn't tell if it'd be hard to pull off or not since I haven't actually tried it, but the draw engines should make it easier to get the parts together..
I already pack an eldrazi for reshuffling, so probably including 4x polymorph, a couple low CMC manlands, and/or some lingering souls/timely reinforcements or cards of the sake shouldn't be that hard, they may eventually serve as blockers if needed, or even as <weak> wincons.
Cheers.
SST.
4 Arid Mesa
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Mountain
4 Howling Mine
4 Fevered Visions
2 Temple Bell
4 Render Silent
4 Silence
4 Holy Day
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Dawn Charm
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Elixir of Immortality
1 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Negate
2 Deprive
2 Pithing Needle
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
Yes... main deck is 61 bc I have a very hard time just losing to decks G1 that target for the win. Ie. Storm, burn, ad nauseum, scapeshift, 8 rack, etc. I ran a similar version in the past but ran Megrim and lilianas caress over netsuke and visions. Decided I'd give this a try but I'm thinking I might take out 1 silence and 1 render silent for 2 LoS. And find something for the sb in those 2 slots. What do you guys think?
Well if you look at the RW lockdown thread in the stickied section you will see that RW lockdown has 3 SCG finishes in about 8 months and still has not been promoted. It is worth noting that decks don't get demoted, so to put a deck up requires lots of evidence.
As Tyler says Tron and burn are hard-impossible with standard builds of a TF, and control is hard.
@Tyler
I have been looking at Tron and the only board plan that gives me a chance is a transformational board to take me up to 8/9 counters and a couple of snapcasters plus annoyance cards like Stony Silence.
I am looking at Bribery as an option. Casting it for 7 mana (5 + 2 back up for a negate/deprive)could be brutal. It might get better if USA goes down the Nahiri route, one to consider, perhaps as a board card.
Burn is not as bad for me as I am using a few pillow-fort options- a Runed Halo, a Leyline, a Story circle, a Peace of Mind and 2 of my fogs (riot control) gain life. Its not easy though, although Tutelage rocks against them. If they use skullcrack then dawn charm becomes useful in the counter mode. As board cards for this match I am going down the route of a sanctimony/Kor firewalker split.
I would like to try Thing in the Ice main, with 15 fogs, counterspells and snapcasters that is a lot of instants to switch them on. The main issue is that by playing a dude you switch on otherwise dead cards. it might be the sort of card that does the job against tron style decks......
I have been running Bribery in the board for Tron, it can be really sweet but with a large counter suite post board and couple of snappies sometimes the deck just works before it gets relevant.
I wait till seven mana, cast it, and hold a counter back- ensuring one hit with Ulamog if he is in the deck.
If I don't draw another counter or snappy from the 8, then the worst that can happen is they kill Ulamog after he has milled them 20 cards, if I do have another counter I win. Seems like a better deal than trying to mill them and hope they don't draw and cast ulamog. If they board Ulamog out G3 I am in a better place anyway.
Really I still need the 8 counters post board, but I feel I have a good chance g2/3.
And maybe I'm alone on this because i think the control matchups are not that hard.. At least from my experience.. maybe the players are bad..
For my money.
Tron requires that the deck after boarding looks more like a control UW build with some fogs adn turbo.