Even travis woo made a deck running visions and owl but it was more bounce centric. I'm gonna order a set of visions and build a 2ndary fog list with fevered owl
screw owl, fevered visions is a wincon enough. owl is basically just wasting a slot to speed up the clock visions already creates. The beauty of fevered visions is that it is both a win con and turbo in the same slot which opens up a few more slots in your deck for other cards like more fogs or utility
Yeah! That's my point,and once we're there (splashing red), we even may include some runeflare traps or sudden impacts at least as sb tech for the insta-win (or at least to burn the hell out of our opponent). I'm gonna try one of those next week since these days I'm pretty much busy.
Also red opens up plenty of new possibilities for our deck!.
I'll see if I can record some matches on xmage, can you recommend any software which can do that?
I wouldnt add red outside of visions. Our deck runs enough draw spells that I've never had issues keeping their hand at 7 once we get going. And in white we have silence as it is and being able to reshuffle silence back in over and over causes them to take a ton of damage.
What do you mean with "winning in 5 turns"? That's something I've actually never done with any of my builds.. haha. Usually just +10 turns, no matter if fevered visions or sphinx's tutelage (unless I'm facing dredge or sth including treasure hunt, then they help a ton with the mill).
I don't see your point about throwing a silence at them. How'd that deal any damage? Because with fevered visions we don't have to keep their hand at 7 but at 4, and that's pretty much easy. Fevered Visions will deal the same damage no matter if they have 4 or 50 cards in hand, it'll always be 2.
I tried a quick single game (well, I guess it's never quick with turbofog) versus living end today, including 2x runeflare trap and I have to say burning his face for his last 9 felt awesome, i've never had the chance to end a game that fast, kinda harder without sphinx's tutelage, and he certainly didn't see that coming.
Also I went 2-0 against soul sisters, I kinda missed sphinx's tutelage there as he went to nearly 50 life on both matches. I won both games thanks to jace beleren's ultimate.
What I mean is that once our wincon is in play I rather it take 5 turns to win then take 10 turns. Once our deck is rolling and we play netsuke, 4 damage for five turns wins you the game versus trying to win with visions dealing 2 damage a turn for 10 turns
Oh, you mean about ebony owl netsuke, yeah, but i think I still prefer runeflare trap over that as it can be triggered just after the opponent draws a bunch of cards, therefore dealing proportional damage, and I doubt we'll ever have to hardcast it, and if we have to it's becase we're not having a good match. The owl triggers on the upkeep, its damage is always 4 and you can't instant speed it which IMO is a cool advantage.
I actually have to playtest a tad more with both, then I'll let you know.
Yeah... I meant that you silence them so they always have enough cards in hand to activate netsuke. But anyways... I know we kind of given up on our tron matchups but last night I got rolled by mono blue tron.... we really need something to make that mu easier. Even if we have to play a combo out of the sb or something. Twin kept it in check and now, twin is gone so maybe we need to look for a way to combo out on them? I'm still working on finishing my b/g LD but LD would definitely help if we had enough dedicated slots and a faster clock
I own Ad Nauseam. Game 2 majority of deck will go for the Lab Maniac win from the board when faced with multiple Halo/leylines/suppresion fields[ which hits the activated ability of L.S.), and 1-2 echoing truth (list dependent). If they get Milled, Nevermored or countered (N.B. negate won't cut it v Maniac) then Leyline will be enough.
Really sorry to miss this comment. L.S stood for lightning storm in ad nauseam, which has an activated ability hit by suppression field.
On another note I am experimenting with the zur's lock from the board vs tron, its very slow process in terms testing and, indeed, in casting at t4, but with a critical mass of counters in the deck to stop stuff happening t3 it works well- trouble is I can't find room for that many counters in the main and side.
Oh. My bad. I lost pretty badly against mono blue tron the other day. He just had all the ways to deal with me. Then I played last night at fnm against 2 jund decks back to back and lost to both. Every time I played a mine or bell, they had a way to deal with it ie pulse, k. Command, or the 2 drop that's uncounterable that destroys cmc 3 or less (forgot the name) and without turbo and them tearing my hand apart with Lili and seize
I am aiming to play a few permanents to get a slight pillow-fort ish feel to it in back up to the turbo and the fog aspects- couple of leyline, runed halo, peace of mind, maybe a board sphere of safety. Won't do anything v tron = that g1 has gone, but may help with other matches.
Monastery Siege is decent vs those kill everything decks- abrupt decay @ 4, pulse @ 5 is a lot nicer. I use 4 dictate, 4 mine and am considering a mini jace.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I run 4 mine, 4 bell and 2 dictate. I believe I'm going to switch the way my deck is designed. Play my old version of silence megirm. Plus that counterspells the also acts as a silence and lilianas caress
I have always adored owling mine, FV is obviously a direct fit.
I have found that Fevered Visions works a treat in a Legacy Stasis shell with the now unbanned Vise.
The deck is remarkably competitive, way beyond my expectations of what is essentially a dead deck type, and has a particularly strong Miracles and creature matches. FV is an absolute house. The deck probably won't catch on though, its pretty soft to Storm, Game 1 BUG and Infect + reanimator type decks that are fast combo with Force back up. Not many people can afford to put Tabernacles into a deck that is not going to be top tier though. But that deck is basically many times better with FV. Owling mine will get better too for the same reason, although its lock is much softer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
On red we have: Crumble to dust/sowing salt as well as plenty of Land Destruction (fulminator mage maybe?), burn spells which can eventually hit a planeswalker and finally blood moon/magus of the moon if you're running lots of basics or going deep into red (do you think it's possible to make a mainboard version including it?).
I'm not really into green, but it has stuff like beast within, as well as some LD among others.
The difference between us and other decks usually is that most decks play their sb tech against tron in order to progressively get board advantage, casting beaters, having more mana to counter their stuff, burning them, or ramping up to a combo. We're not really able to do this, and what is even worse, we're giving them plenty of cards each turn which only helps them find their removal/planeswalkers.
That said, possibly our earlier best shot is stony silence as it hoses eggs, map, o-stone and stuff, which can easily be a 4-of as it's useful against other decks as well. No silver bullet here, you know what I mean. Then we have pithing needle (name karn first, then o-stone, then ugin if you got a god-hand) which it's still sorta useful against certain matchups and pesky cards (IDK.. ghost quarters, planeswalkers, that ad nauseam's lightning storm, qasali pridemage, aether vial, etc). And finally crumble to dust/sowing salt which will grant us they won't assemble the tron.
If you're more into turbo-mill, playing stuff like archive trap for instance, or at least you're able to consistently mill your opponent in the earlier turns, then you'll love to surgical extraction his tron.
Otherwise, look for cool synergies such as recurring a ghost quarter with a crucible of worlds, or build a counterspell/bounce core on your sb.
Or maybe we can just go nuts and go for a radical b plan, including blood moon and a bunch of burn spells.
Oh, and sadly runeflare trap is bad texted on xmage for some reason, saying "if an opponent put three or more cards into his graveyard" instead of "if an opponent drew three or more cards" which makes it unplayable, so I won't be able to do so until they fix that.
And Sudden impact doesn't seem nearly as good as the trap due to its high CMC.
Monastery siege will be another thing to try soon, it's dragon side helps a ton against removal and burn. If we don't face any of them, we just go khans and at least filter our draws. REally good on my Enduring Ideal deck, so much I had to play 4 copies on it .
Mon Siege is a super card for any prison deck or combo/prison deck like Enduring Ideal. It could be useful in a Turbo Fog deck, making Maelstrom pulse cost 5 for example. Interaction with Tutelage is good too.
The main issue from what I can see in limited game time is that a T Fog deck needs 10-15 board cards vs Tron and some against grindy mindrange and burn, whilst wiping the floor with certain other decks- very binary, basically.
I do think that using a few pillow fort tricks in the Fog lists is the way to go for me. I will look at an Owling Mine type list with FV and Dictates plus stuff, but it won't be fogging. Might be a few months before I get round to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I dug out my owl netsuke, megrims, and lilianas caress. I'm ordering 4 visions, 4 silence, 4 render silent, 1 owl to complete my set, and 2 caress to finish my set. I will be testing those out again in the future. Then in about a week I'm gonna buy 4 isochron scepter and test that as a 2-4 in my silence build (s)
Against tron... what if we rund a lot of counters in thevery board. Counter their plays, and fog wurmcoil. Counters also hit burn spells and eidolon. Then we run a few different win cons to finish the sb. Doesn't rly help against emmy but yeah... I just went through the cards in modern that say "counter" somewhere in the text box and there are plenty of hard counters at 3 and a few at 2, but at 2, they have a stipulation to be met or they cost 3 or they are more specific, i.e. negate
Hey everyone.
Can someone remind me why we're not playing bojuka bog for gy hate?
It can't be countered, it targets and it's a functional land (a slow one, but who cares right?).
Also, reliquary tower for extra card advantage against control? A typical issue is they outnumber my fogs, so why not just having +10 cards in hand so you never do so? The only worry I'd have about it is milling ourselves, but I guess as long as the fogs keep flowing to the gy and as long as we trigger elixir of immortality or discard an eldrazi we'll be fine. Monastery Siege might help doing that last part too.
Yup, lots of stuff to try. I'll list it in order to brainstorm. If someone wants to give me a hand (or two) you're more than welcome.
-Filling up sb with counterspells, I'm not sure which would be the maximum amount we can handle without messing with the core of the deck though. We totaly should pick up hard counters over conditional counters. I'd go with Negate and Swan Song are the best we can get IMO, then you have Deprive, Countersquall, and then the more specific ones.
-Monastery Siege, along with reliquary tower and ulamog, the infinite gyre, so you discard the eldrazi, reshuffling your gy again. If this works, I'll certainly try master the way as a finisher, but that's more of a personal thing I guess. -I'll continue later on, gotta lunch right now. Just did.
My question on tower... yes it gives us infinite hand size but we still go to clean up and discard step so does it make it so we can't discard? Tower only allows us to not discard. It doesn't completely stop us from choosing to does it?
For me the best counter is deprive- returning a land is not an issue in decks where we need counters- tron esque decks. I use temple of enlightenment so it helps there too, and I use piece of mind.
They must be hard counters- leak effects won't work if the game goes long as it must in order to win. They are dire vs Tron too.
I don't think there are enough counters you can run to stop everything, hence I want to run 3-4 Zur's as I mentioned before and try and lock them with piece of mind, using 5/6/7 counters 5 board 2 main.
I am using 1 5cc Jace from M14 and one of his Lorwyn predecessor, the later needs 3 activations to win most games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Yup, reliquary tower on bf means we're not discarding on cleanup anymore. You can't choose to discard just because, the same way you can't discard just because when you have 7 cards in hand. You just never reach the limit of cards in hand.
So, that's why I'd run monastery siege or sth. To discard ulamog when needed so I won't auto mill.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
<<Insert fancy signature here>>
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Also red opens up plenty of new possibilities for our deck!.
I'll see if I can record some matches on xmage, can you recommend any software which can do that?
Cheers.
SST.
I don't see your point about throwing a silence at them. How'd that deal any damage? Because with fevered visions we don't have to keep their hand at 7 but at 4, and that's pretty much easy. Fevered Visions will deal the same damage no matter if they have 4 or 50 cards in hand, it'll always be 2.
I tried a quick single game (well, I guess it's never quick with turbofog) versus living end today, including 2x runeflare trap and I have to say burning his face for his last 9 felt awesome, i've never had the chance to end a game that fast, kinda harder without sphinx's tutelage, and he certainly didn't see that coming.
Also I went 2-0 against soul sisters, I kinda missed sphinx's tutelage there as he went to nearly 50 life on both matches. I won both games thanks to jace beleren's ultimate.
Oh, and red would be mostly for sb tech (apart from runeflare trap which I'm testing) as I mentioned before. Maybe intimidation bolt mainboard? Stuff like Wear // Tear also hits Eidolon of the great revel as well.
Cheers.
SST.
I actually have to playtest a tad more with both, then I'll let you know.
Cheers.
SST.
Really sorry to miss this comment. L.S stood for lightning storm in ad nauseam, which has an activated ability hit by suppression field.
On another note I am experimenting with the zur's lock from the board vs tron, its very slow process in terms testing and, indeed, in casting at t4, but with a critical mass of counters in the deck to stop stuff happening t3 it works well- trouble is I can't find room for that many counters in the main and side.
Monastery Siege is decent vs those kill everything decks- abrupt decay @ 4, pulse @ 5 is a lot nicer. I use 4 dictate, 4 mine and am considering a mini jace.
I have found that Fevered Visions works a treat in a Legacy Stasis shell with the now unbanned Vise.
The deck is remarkably competitive, way beyond my expectations of what is essentially a dead deck type, and has a particularly strong Miracles and creature matches. FV is an absolute house. The deck probably won't catch on though, its pretty soft to Storm, Game 1 BUG and Infect + reanimator type decks that are fast combo with Force back up. Not many people can afford to put Tabernacles into a deck that is not going to be top tier though. But that deck is basically many times better with FV. Owling mine will get better too for the same reason, although its lock is much softer.
Let's check out what weapons we do have against them.
On colorless we have: Pithing needle (key on this matchup, hoses their biggest "early" threats a.k.a. planeswalkers and oblivion stone), ghost quarter/tectonic edge and damping matrix. Jester's cap may be considered too.
On white we have: Stony silence (shuts eggs, exploration map, oblivion stone, etc,), Suppression Field (slows map, planeswalkers, and o-stone), Nevermore, Aura of silence (slows eggs, map, o-stone and can be sac'd to destroy this last one), and even stuff like oblivion ring can be useful. What do you think about Rule of law/eidolon of rhetoric/ curse of exhaustion?
On blue we have: Counterspells, bouncers such as cyclonic rift, echoing truth andboomerang, spreading seas/sea's claim/convincing mirage (if you're not facing U-versions) shadow of doubt maybe?
On black we have: extraction stuff basically; surgical extraction (great after ghost quartering one of the tron pieces), extirpate, memoricide, cranial extraction, and rain of tears if you like LD. Discard tech is probably not too good as we're providing them plenty of cards each turn.
On red we have: Crumble to dust/sowing salt as well as plenty of Land Destruction (fulminator mage maybe?), burn spells which can eventually hit a planeswalker and finally blood moon/magus of the moon if you're running lots of basics or going deep into red (do you think it's possible to make a mainboard version including it?).
I'm not really into green, but it has stuff like beast within, as well as some LD among others.
The difference between us and other decks usually is that most decks play their sb tech against tron in order to progressively get board advantage, casting beaters, having more mana to counter their stuff, burning them, or ramping up to a combo. We're not really able to do this, and what is even worse, we're giving them plenty of cards each turn which only helps them find their removal/planeswalkers.
That said, possibly our earlier best shot is stony silence as it hoses eggs, map, o-stone and stuff, which can easily be a 4-of as it's useful against other decks as well. No silver bullet here, you know what I mean. Then we have pithing needle (name karn first, then o-stone, then ugin if you got a god-hand) which it's still sorta useful against certain matchups and pesky cards (IDK.. ghost quarters, planeswalkers, that ad nauseam's lightning storm, qasali pridemage, aether vial, etc). And finally crumble to dust/sowing salt which will grant us they won't assemble the tron.
If you're more into turbo-mill, playing stuff like archive trap for instance, or at least you're able to consistently mill your opponent in the earlier turns, then you'll love to surgical extraction his tron.
Otherwise, look for cool synergies such as recurring a ghost quarter with a crucible of worlds, or build a counterspell/bounce core on your sb.
Or maybe we can just go nuts and go for a radical b plan, including blood moon and a bunch of burn spells.
Oh, and sadly runeflare trap is bad texted on xmage for some reason, saying "if an opponent put three or more cards into his graveyard" instead of "if an opponent drew three or more cards" which makes it unplayable, so I won't be able to do so until they fix that.
And Sudden impact doesn't seem nearly as good as the trap due to its high CMC.
I'd really want to try a master the way build, including reliquary tower at least for the LOLS, what'cha think?
Monastery siege will be another thing to try soon, it's dragon side helps a ton against removal and burn. If we don't face any of them, we just go khans and at least filter our draws. REally good on my Enduring Ideal deck, so much I had to play 4 copies on it .
Cheers.
SST.
The main issue from what I can see in limited game time is that a T Fog deck needs 10-15 board cards vs Tron and some against grindy mindrange and burn, whilst wiping the floor with certain other decks- very binary, basically.
I do think that using a few pillow fort tricks in the Fog lists is the way to go for me. I will look at an Owling Mine type list with FV and Dictates plus stuff, but it won't be fogging. Might be a few months before I get round to it.
Can someone remind me why we're not playing bojuka bog for gy hate?
It can't be countered, it targets and it's a functional land (a slow one, but who cares right?).
Also, reliquary tower for extra card advantage against control? A typical issue is they outnumber my fogs, so why not just having +10 cards in hand so you never do so? The only worry I'd have about it is milling ourselves, but I guess as long as the fogs keep flowing to the gy and as long as we trigger elixir of immortality or discard an eldrazi we'll be fine. Monastery Siege might help doing that last part too.
Yup, lots of stuff to try. I'll list it in order to brainstorm. If someone wants to give me a hand (or two) you're more than welcome.
-Filling up sb with counterspells, I'm not sure which would be the maximum amount we can handle without messing with the core of the deck though. We totaly should pick up hard counters over conditional counters. I'd go with Negate and Swan Song are the best we can get IMO, then you have Deprive, Countersquall, and then the more specific ones.
-Monastery Siege, along with reliquary tower and ulamog, the infinite gyre, so you discard the eldrazi, reshuffling your gy again. If this works, I'll certainly try master the way as a finisher, but that's more of a personal thing I guess.
-I'll continue later on, gotta lunch right now.Just did.They must be hard counters- leak effects won't work if the game goes long as it must in order to win. They are dire vs Tron too.
I don't think there are enough counters you can run to stop everything, hence I want to run 3-4 Zur's as I mentioned before and try and lock them with piece of mind, using 5/6/7 counters 5 board 2 main.
I am using 1 5cc Jace from M14 and one of his Lorwyn predecessor, the later needs 3 activations to win most games.
So, that's why I'd run monastery siege or sth. To discard ulamog when needed so I won't auto mill.