I have recently put together a Bant Fog deck, and I have been playtesting it a lot, and it feels pretty good. I'm taking it out to my next FNM to see how it goes.
Burn is a problem for this deck, especially Eidolon of the Great Revel. I think I want to include 4 Runed Halo somewhere in the 75 to help deal with it. The life gain from Timely Reinforcements and Riot Control can really help out in those matches. Riot Control has the added advantage of preventing damage from Storm, Scapeshift, and Melira.
Sphinx's Revelation is there to power out wins with Tutelage, and the lifegain can play an important role in some matchups.
The single Elixir of Immortality is there to prevent me from milling myself, and the incidental lifegain can be good. It also puts my fogs back in the deck when I have an especially long and grindy match.
I really like going green for Rites of Flourishing, since it lets me drop it on turn 3, then play another land to keep up for a Fog effect. I have also considered running the new Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger as a one-of for an alternate win condition, since hitting 10 mana is not uncommon with Rites out.
I know there is probably some room for improvement here and suggestions are appreciated.
I'd definitely say add another elixir or way to shuffle back in bc of it ends up at the bottom, u can end up not hitting a fog when they have over 20 dmg on the board. Id say in the sb, take out the verdicts. 2 in the main is plenty. Ulamog was something I was looking at as well. I've also been thinking about the other one that creates a twin of itself that's a 10/10. Or colossus of akros. Also, if you wanna squeeze something in the main, I'd cut 1 of the fogs and maybe 1 tutelage. I run 3 tutelage and I seem to find them rather easily. As far as halo in your 75... I'd say remove the 2 verdicts and 1 timely for 3 halos. 4 would be nice but between 3 halos and 2 d-sphere, 6 main board ways to gain life and the timelys in the board, that's enough lifegain for burn and ways to deal with eidolon. As mentioned above, do you see Emmy and if so what have you done to avoid or remove it? Also, try to write down your mu's and decision making etc and let us know how you do. I'm making try to make it out to fnm this week for modern. Try to squeeze out another 4-0 but depends. I'd what my meta will be this time since it changes a lot so I have to hope the sb is good enough. Changed it to handle Emmy a Lil better. Currently looks like:
With running tutelage, has anyone wanted to try running Painter's Servant ?
Scratch that. Possibly good but don't think it's got the same potential as grindstone since grindstone doesn't care if u hit a land or not while tutelage does. I really wish grindstone was modern legal. I'm sure it'd probably get banned for being too fast for modern but I fly wanna play that deck in legacy but yeah... not spending money for 4 recruiters. Haha
Thanks for the feedback. I am planning to get to an FNM this week, but I might have a scheduling conflict. If I go I will post my results this weekend. I am removing the temple bell in the main for an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre . I'm keeping all four copies Dictate of Kruphix because I don't want to get blown out turn three after tapping out for a temple bell.
I haven't seen any mention of Day's Undoing in this deck yet. Is there any particular reason why? Are we just avoiding ******* up the mill win con? I feel like refueling our hand is pretty darn strong as well as recycling our graveyard which increases our fog density, even with the downside of letting our opponent draw a new hand. What do you guys think of adding Day's Undoing and going to eldrazi, manlands, or planewalkers to finish a game?
edit: I'm also interested in what people think of kami of false hope + emeria, the sky ruin as a hard fog lock. The downside is obvious that kami is bad vs instant speed removal, but the upside is that if you get it online, a lot of decks have to concede to it.
Ok... my opinion is its OK at best. If you wanna mill g1, it's trash bc it shuffles both players. If you are built to win with dmg, then go for it. I wish it was an instant and stopped the turn turn in which it was played. I won't play it bc usually I run a planes walker to win the game and mill as the back up win con since our deck has that as a natural thing. I'd say if your built to win with dmg via manlands or creatures go for it. If your going the tutelage route I'd avoid it unless we find a MU where it's useful in the sb. Also, how often are you worried about refueling your hand? I've never had a problem having 7 on my turn. On the combo, I like it bc even if they instant speed remove it, we can sac it in response and fog for the turn. Emeria can be difficult on 3 color decks if you aren't heavily white. I play plenty of white but I'm not sure it'd be easy to get 7 plains in play. But I'd say it's Def worth trying. I do love the idea of it
I think that Day's Undoing could be a good way to refill our hand if we are using planeswalkers like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Gideon, or even Garruk, Apex Predator or Koth of the Hammer depending on your colors. I think that 'walkers are the best way to go after mill, as they are the hardest to interact with, and are much cheaper to cast then the Eldrazi. Also, it would be harder to include cards like Riot Control or Safe Passage, as they only prevent damage dealt to players. Giving our opponent a new hand is a drawback, but our turbo is drawing them so many cards that this may be irrelevant. I might include this in my list instead of the Sphinx's Tutelage and add the 'walkers depending on my results tomorrow. Would you recommend replacing some of the turbo, fogs, or both for these?
As for a Kami of False HopeEmeria, the Sky Ruin lock, it's great once in place, but the Kami is very risky before then. We would be enabling all of our opponents instant removal spells, so we would need other fogs in hand as backup. By the time it would be online on turn 9 at the earliest, we should have enough turbo to consistently draw fogs, or something like Day's Undoing to refill our hand. If there are some open sideboard slots, it could be worth running a few copies of Emeria main, and siding in the Kamis game two after their removal is sided out. We would also need to be base white with all of our other colors coming from shocks or the new tango lands to meet the 7 plains requirement. I thinks it may be worth a try with two or so kamis, and would be interested to hear how it goes.
Any of the legendary Eldrazi can replace Emmy, it's just there to ensure I don't lose to mill.
Got rid of 2 Dictates (don't like the double blue mana cost), 1 Dawn Charm and a Psychic Spiral to make room.
Thoughts?
Looks good but I'd find a secondary win con for g2/3. Once they know what you are doing, they will destroy your win con. Also still think we need a main board way to shuffle the grave back in in case they counter tutelage or something happens and the game goes long. Take out 1 tutelage to add back in the spiral or an elixir. I plan on buying some ob nixilis, reignited and testing them out.
Looks good but I'd find a secondary win con for g2/3. Once they know what you are doing, they will destroy your win con. Also still think we need a main board way to shuffle the grave back in in case they counter tutelage or something happens and the game goes long. Take out 1 tutelage to add back in the spiral or an elixir. I plan on buying some ob nixilis, reignited and testing them out.
The plan is to win g1, lose g2 and scout their sideboard tech, then win g3 by using Nevermore or other answers on their tech. (or, use g1 to scout their tech and lose against say an Eldrazi, then hopefully take both g2/3 after packing answers). Based on what deck you are facing, you can also predict what to use Nevermore on - e.g. if facing Tron name Ugin/Karn depending on what you saw g1, if facing BG name Maelstrom Pulse and then Abrupt Decay, against anything with black or red add in an extra Leyline of Sanctity cos they will try to either destroy your hand or bolt you more (and if red, name Skullcrack). I haven't found a good alternative wincon yet.
Since a lot of Modern decks crack fetches, search for stuff (Sylvan Scrying) and in general draw more cards for themselves than this deck, in a straight mill war (without Tutelage) you will usually win. Actually, even with no "selfish draw" on their side we will still always win as they draw first off our Howling Mine effects, so they will run out first. Unless they have Eldrazi or elixir, without Tutelage Fog can win by T12+ without any mill at all. With 17 fogs, we should be covered till then. Actually, I rather run Eldrazi than Elixir of Immortality/Psychic Spiral as the shuffle effect is triggered and less easily countered (and decks that seek to mill you WILL have blue, so they WILL have counters).
Let me know how Ob Nixilis works.. I find protecting planeswalkers is tough in the opening, so I didn't run Jace Beleren. But I guess it's different when dropping him after the game stabilises. TBH I think we should focus on ways to protect our turbo since a smart player will just kill all our Turbo and then tutelage, Ob etc will not save us.
Then I've nvr played against a smart player. They usually let the turbo resolve to draw their stuff faster. I've had 1 opponent spell snare a mine but other than that they have always gone after my win con. EldrazI are better but elixir is better against burn since it gains us life. I've never had problems protecting a planes walker bc I don't play them if I can't fog the same turn. So they are always protected from combat damage. I don't like the idea of losing any games. I win g1 75% of the time due to them keepibg in trying even through we played for 40 mins so I don't have to worry about winning g2 or g3. The few games I do lose my sb has been decent for me. I don't trust ob personally bc 5 drop win cons don't do it for me. Now if I'm playing a game and I see I'm in a tough spot or I feel it's a waste and I need to save time in the round I'll scoop them up for g2 but there are very few decks that have cards for our deck bc it isn't a deck you no mall play against. But yeah... all we have to do is go look at the lists on here to have a pretty good idea of what they could have and what may be sided in. I just try not to lose period. Tiebreakers can matter and I don't wanna lose g1/2 for any reason. But I see what u r saying. I'd run ulamog or kozilek since we can cast them if we need to and dropping one of them is game if we get to attack
Out of curiosity, how do your games reach 40 mins? I play on MTGO, and with a 25 min time limit per player (50 mins total) I've never had a problem with finishing all 3 games unless my opponent ragetimeouts. Before I added Sphinx's Tutelage, I didn't run any mill other than Psychic Spiral and usually won on turn 12-15. Since most of my turns are draw, turbo, go and most of my opponents' turns get fogged, it's pretty fast.
In any case the number of fogs in your deck is a hardcap on how many turns you can survive. I play 17-18. So I can live for 17-18 turns give or take a few. If the game goes to 20+ turns I lose to creatures. Imagine playing a Abzan opponent who nukes every single turbo piece you put down, making the game drag out because each of you is drawing only 1 card per turn and you are fogging him every turn. At some point in time, you will hit land and/or run out of fogs, allowing your opponent to one or two-shot you with his creatures. This is why smart players go after the turbo pieces.
I don't agree the 5 life from elixir helps against burn. Smart burn players play around us by dropping burn spells on our turn and/or burning in response to fogs, so we have to fog our turn as well as theirs (they attack with creatures on their turn). Eventually, we run out of fogs since fogging creatures is card disadvantage. 5 life is not going to save you in this situation, this is only 2 Lightning Bolts. Much rather play Leyline of Sanctity, or Nevermore. One Nevermore naming bolt saves you 12 life if they haven't played a bolt by the time Nevermore comes down. And the best RDW target for Nevermore isn't even Bolt, it's Eidolon of the Great Revel. That thing just kills us dead since every fog becomes a Shock to our own face.
Edit: Another good reason to play Nevermore is it draws flak away from your Leyline which red decks just auto lose to. Most red decks nowadays play Destructive Revelry or something similar to counter Leyline.
Basically similar to what I posted earlier, except for the addition of Jester's Cap. I was getting sick of losing G1 to random elixirs, Zulaport Cutthroat, what-have-you and I thought the "search deck" function would help with scouting tech.
Game 1: GW Bogles (2-0)
This went exactly how you'd expect a match against a deck which relies on creature damage to play out, which is very well. G2 I sided out my Leyline of Sanctity for Nevermore and managed to stop his sideboard tech, which was Seal of Primordium on my turbo pieces.
Game 2: Abzan Aristocrats (2-1)
This was a build running Doomed Traveler, Tukatongue Thallid etc and a few sac outlets, then trying to kill either through aggro or Blood Artist. I lost G1 as I couldn't get white mana up fast enough and died to token aggro, backed up by Abzan Ascendancy. It didn't help that his Tidehollow Sculler kept exiling my fogs in hand. My changes for G2 were to bring in an additional Leyline of Sanctity, as it helps immensely against Blood Artist and helps against discard which is Abzan's usual way of dealing with threats. With a Leyline in my opening hand for both g2 and g3, even my opponent's SB plan of Stain the Mind didn't work and he ended up ragestalling by endlessly looping his tokens through sac outlets.
Game 3: RG ramp/Tooth and Nail (0-2)
This deck aimed to Tooth and Nail into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Xenagos, God of Revels. I expectedly lost G1, so my SB plan for g2 was to remove the more expensive fogs (Safe Passage, Riot Control) and jam pack my deck with every copy of Nevermore and Jester's Cap I had. Unfortunately, I was stuck trying to find a second white mana source and he went off the turn before I would have exiled his Emrakul with Jester's Cap, with a Nevermore in hand. I had no way to deal with a T5 Emrakul and conceded.
Game 4: Splinter Twin (0-2)
By taking out both my Supreme Verdicts, I was trying to improve my matchup against random decks/cards at the expense of my matchup against control. I think that control is a horrible matchup for Turbofog. Turbofog has a horrible card disadvantage - every fog you spend on creatures is a loss of a card, but in the end you use your turbo to draw so many cards such that even if the opponent draws his whole deck and you only draw half of yours, you can still win. Unfortunately, blue both makes us waste more than one fog per turn (by countering our first fog, so we have to play a second) and bouncing/countering our turbo, so we get starved of cards especially compared to blue's superior card draw and selection. Cryptic Command is horribad, as it both bounces a turbo piece, usually after the blue player has benefitted from it, and counters a fog. Even BG, with their Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, can only do one of the above. In the end, this backfired quite badly as both my last 2 games were against blue decks.
I almost took G1 against Twin, though. I managed to stick a Sphinx's Tutelage and a few turbo pieces and slowly managed to mill him out. In the end, he had an active combo being held at bay by fogs and 2 cards in the library. I had 2 Howling Mines and 3 mana up, sufficient to cast either Dictate of Kruphix or Safe Passage. On his upkeep, he used Cryptic Command to send one mine back to my hand so he would have exactly zero cards in his library and could survive one more turn. I played Dictate in response, then he made a Deceiver Exarch token and tapped my Howling Mine. Ouch! I forgot about the untap clause, but I tunnelvisioned when I should have played Safe Passage which would have been a safer (pun intended) way to end the turn.
G2 was more counters, more bouncing of my turbo pieces and more Cryptics. It wasn't close.
Game 5: Jeskai Delver (0-2)
Same as above, but worse. With added burn over Splinter Twin and higher powered creatures (Geist of Saint Traft), not only did I have to deal with my fogs getting countered, eventually I also had to fog on my own turn to protect me from his burn spells. Eventually I ran out of fogs. G2 I managed to get a Leyline out, but he just bounced my Leyline with Cryptic Command and carried on.
Overall, I think I could have gone 3-2 instead of 2-3 (which would have allowed me to break even on the entry fee), had I managed to land Nevermore (naming Tooth and Nail) in Game 3, which would have bought me the time needed to exile Emrakul. But, in game 3 I wasn't playing Turbofog, more of disrupting the opponent's combo. I don't think I could have won against either of the last 2 decks, though.
What have I learnt, 5 games and 8 tix later?
- the more creatures in your opponent's deck, the more successful Turbofog is. The reverse is also true. (duh)
- Turbofog is a deck for which you need to watch the meta before you play (as opposed to a more T1 deck where you can just pick it up and have a decent chance in any given tourney)
- I need to add a bit more white mana to my deck, and maybe use Temple Bell rather than Dictate of Kruphix as that's the main reason for all that blue mana
- enchantment removal is still underplayed, and this is good. (destroy your Twin opponent's Stomping Ground with Ghost Quarter = no more Ancient Grudge for you)
- don't add in Angel's Grace when you took out Leyline of Sanctity, you're just asking for a bolt to the face on your upkeep
- MVP: Leyline of Sanctity (2nd runner up - Sphinx's Tutelage). Awaiting the axe: Angel's Grace.
- I never once ran out of time playing Turbofog (the only time the game timed out was because my G2 opponent tried to ragestall).
- Fogs are fun (:
Would I do it again? Yes, if it didn't cost 8 tix. Since it does, I'll wait for Pauper leagues
So, I took the Bant fog deck I posted to my local FNM. (nearly the same as what I posted -1 Celestial Colonnade and +1 Canopy Vista). It was a blast. I went 2-0-2.
Both of my draws were after a game 1 win then my opponent winning game 2. One the players won on turn 5 after going to time, the other I got hit with a Thalia, then a surprise Spellstutter Sprite that got me.
Here are my matchups:
Round 1: Mono-Red Burn 2-0 Win
This can be a troublesome matchup for me, but luckily, my opponent never landed an Eidolon of the Great Revel either game. Being Mono-red really helped me to get the win game 1 with Sphinx's Tutelage.
Game 2, I boarded in 4 Timely Reinforcements and 4 Leyline of Sanctity and was able to win pretty easily.
Round 2: Abzan 1-1 Draw
Game 1 was incredibly long. I got caught by a Maelstrom Pulse with 2 Sphinx's Tutelage out, but I got my Elixir of Immortality to shuffle them back in. I was finally able to land another Tutelage and cast a very big Sphinx's Revelation for the win. Game 1 took almost 40 minutes.
Game 2, I obliged my opponent by playing as quickly as possible, and I got killed by a Manland on turn 5 of time in round, after casting 3 Supreme Verdict to clear the board.
I had boarded in 2 Supreme Verdict, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, and (I think) 2 Rest in Peace .
Round 3: Bant Collected Chord 1-1-1 Draw
Game 1 I won pretty straight up, my opponent tried to combo off with Knight of the Reliquary and Retreat to Coralhelm and thinned his deck way out so my Tutelage hit for a lot.
Game 2 I was doing pretty well, and I tapped more than I needed to (I left up 2 mana for 2 fog effects), my Opponent had a huge board presense and used Chord of Calling to get Thalia, Guardian, Thraben on my turn, then attacked and countered my fog with a Spellstutter Sprite. Kudos to him, it was a great play that I was not expecting. Those collected decks full of 1-ofs are hard to predict.
Game 3 Basically started, then went to turns so we drew.
I had boarded in 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Detention Sphere, and 4 Leyline of Sanctity (to avoid the mill from a Hedron Crab with the Kight/Retreat combo, and to avoid Melira combos).
Round 4: ??? 2-0 Win
I got paired up against a BW mostly Standard Allies deck. Not sure exactly what it was, but it wasn't really tuned to be competitive. Though, I almost lost game 1 to his Retreat to Hagra which was draining me for 2-3 every turn with my Rites of Flourishings out. I boarded in my 2 Detention Sphere and 4 Timely Reinforcements for the extra life gain. I won this one pretty easily.
Overall, it was a great night. Had some really close fun games, with a lot to keep track of. Everyone loved seeing Turbo Fog, and I'm looking forward to playing it more (and hoping I keep avoiding the burn decks!).
I'm glad to find out you found some answers to the tron matchup as well as others such as amulet bloom (to name a deck that has wincons that don't rely on combat damage or anything leyline of sanctity can't shut down), or for those pesky eidolon of the great revels. I don't really see gurmag angler, and cards of the sake as a threat, but they do become a threat if they're played in a heavy counterspell deck. I totally forgot about surgical extraction, extirpate, memoricide, praetor's grasp, jester's cap, haunting echoes, slaughter games, sadistic sacrament, cranial extraction, etc. I'd play the ones that hit all zones though (the more cards, the better) as I really want to get rid of the stones, planeswalkers and eldrazis, and waiting for one of those cards to hit the gy may take longer than casting a turn 4/5 cranial extraction.
I think I'm gonna give them a try over the o-rings as they can't be removed once they are solved (it sucks to get to exile one of those perms and then watch 'em back on the play as our o-stone got karned).
Beware of rites of flourishing, it's cool if you're playing enough threats IMO, but giving your opponent access to ramp might be dangerous. Specially for the aforementioned matchups.
As for the other draw engines, howling mine is a must as it's the only one we can play turn 2. Apart from kami of the moon which I’m still unsure if to play or not as I’m creatureless (except for ulamog which is more resilient and colonnade which I seldomly play). Temple bell is cool because it’s colorless and can get you or your opponent a draw anytime you want, and if he has 8 cards eot he must discard, but I haven't really found that to be THAT useful. I was playing a full set, but lately I cut a couple of them for a Jace Beleren and a dictate of kruphix, mainly because of maelstrom pulse.
So, Jace Beleren is really cool as it serves as a bodyguard (mostly they try to detour the damage towards him), draw engine and wincon lately, and if you have leyline of sanctity out (which is always a 4 of in my game, as I feel naked if I don't a start a game with it on turn 0) it can't be burned so removal is the only way to get rid of him. I play only one though, as a replacement for temple bell as I mentioned before.
As for Dictate of kruphix, it's really cool to cast it eot as you get the 1st draw and if you're facing a blue deck (with counters on it of course) they have to think twice before countering it or not as they won't have enough mana to counter whatever you play next turn or just casting those flash creatures eot. But otherwise it's just a howling mine. Just 1 copy in order to have a wider array of draw engines.
About the wincons, I'm really loving ob nixilis reignited, draw engine at the cost of only 1 life each, whose ultimate can be unleashed after 4 turns, but once it's done there's no way to get rid of it, it can even hit eldrazis, or any creature that bothers you, and I play enough black to cast it turn 6 (always keep one mana open for fog). The others are jace beleren, ulamog, the infinite gyre, sphinx's tutelage and celestial colonnade 1 copy each. I even though about cutting down the tutelage for some other wincon or another draw engine as it's only function is to make the mill faster (and it works), and I like my permanents to multitask, haha.
I don't think playing Painter's servant is a good idea as you'll be playing one creature whose's ability will only help another permanent, which won't even win you the game on the spot. Having it without tutelage is pointless, and all the blanked removal will go towards him. Unless we're playing against some ramp deck, which eventually got most of his lands on the battlefield, or unless we play some sort of a reversed endless horizons.
If Grindstone was legal, now we're talking.
If you want some janky mill combo play mindcrank + duskmantle guildmage instead. Or even that midnight guard+retraction helix on a ornithopter to mill with an altar of the brood.
Emeria+Kami of the false hope doesn't seem playable at all unless you're on a mono white build or stuff like that.
And if you're trying to splash 4 colours or sth like that, don't forget to bring forbidden orchard in.
I'm mostly playing on xmage, so typically I face a fair amount of janky decks, those players are typically an easy deal as they play on their own and don't mind about our mines. But whenever I face a tier 1/2 player, they ALWAYS get rid of my mines, as they're my only permanents (until I get my planeswalkers online, then the hate goes there).
What have I learnt, 5 games and 8 tix later?
- the more creatures in your opponent's deck, the more successful Turbofog is. The reverse is also true. (duh)
- Turbofog is a deck for which you need to watch the meta before you play (as opposed to a more T1 deck where you can just pick it up and have a decent chance in any given tourney)
- I need to add a bit more white mana to my deck, and maybe use Temple Bell rather than Dictate of Kruphix as that's the main reason for all that blue mana
- enchantment removal is still underplayed, and this is good. (destroy your Twin opponent's Stomping Ground with Ghost Quarter = no more Ancient Grudge for you)
- don't add in Angel's Grace when you took out Leyline of Sanctity, you're just asking for a bolt to the face on your upkeep
- MVP: Leyline of Sanctity (2nd runner up - Sphinx's Tutelage). Awaiting the axe: Angel's Grace.
- I never once ran out of time playing Turbofog (the only time the game timed out was because my G2 opponent tried to ragestall).
- Fogs are fun (:
Agree with almost everything there, except the time issue. I play a slower deck with only 1/2 tutelage and without the ramp rites of flourishing provides, in order to add more consistency to the turbofog shell, which also slows me down. But if I'm enoughly focused I'm not gonna be the one who's taking long turns, just draw+go+fog. Skipping the triggers on xmage might take me some time too, because a misclick can make you lose the game, and if your opponent is playing sth with plenty of triggers it typically gets long. Angel's grace might be an option if you're facing amulet bloom (because of hive mind + pacts), or decks that run some wincon which doesn't involve damage at all, or even against counters because of the split second clause.
I strongly suggest adding at least one way to reshuffle your graveyard so the fogs can keep coming late game.
To all the newer posters, I know it can be painful, but take some time to read what's been discussed before, so we all can manage the same levels of information.
Particularly elixir of immortality, and maze's end variants have been discussed a lot.
Elixir is a core card IMO as it allows you to recur your fogs as well as other stuff, increasing your chances of getting one as you'll have less cards on your deck due to the lands/permanents you already have on the battlefield. It also gives you 5 life which always comes in handy.
About Maze's end variants, it's been said that are slow, the mana base janky, and stuff. I'll just quote dustbunnyelemental on page 5.
No.
Maze's End is a land that comes into play tapped, that requires you to assemble 10 other unique lands that also come into play tapped to win the game.
Let's look at the best case scenario for it:
T1: Gate 1
T2: Gate 2
T3: Gate 3
T4: Rites of Flourishing, Maze's End
T5: Gate 4, Gate 5, return Maze's End look for Gate 6
T6: Gate 7, Maze's End, another Rite (only now do you have enough mana to play your 1st fog)
T7: Gate 8, Gate 9, search Gate 10 with Maze, win.
In your first 10 cards (on play) or 11 (on draw) you need 3 different gates (one of which must have green), Rites and Maze.
In your first 16 cards (on play) or 17 (on draw) you need 8 different gates for this magical Christmasland scenario.
Your wincon is totally noninteractive (except for land destruction coughTronisathinginModern or your Rites dying) which is a plus, but you have no mana to interact with anything your opponent does till T6, by which time you're usually dead in Modern.
Sure you can slow-roll the process which gives you enough time to assemble the necessary Gates, but my traditional Fog deck with no card based wincons and no mill spells can make the opponent draw enough to deck himself by T12-14.
You could replace every land in the traditional Fog deck with Gates, but the CIPT hurts you cos ideally every turn you want enough mana to both Fog (many good fogs i.e. those that save you from burn in addition to creatures cost 3 mana) and play a Howling Mine effect. Plus, once you get your Maze End (which may be on T1, T4 or T7) you can only search out 1 Gate per turn.
You could also try to make it more consistent with Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map whatnot, but every one of these cards you play is one Fog or Mine less and since Turbofog needs a certain density of Fog and Mine effects to work there aren't that many flex spots to work with.
TL:DR - Maze's End is a flavourful card and unique wincon, but it is too clunky to use unless you extensively build around it and with the amount of support it needs, definitely not in a Fog shell.
Current harder matchups IMO (in order of hardness). 1- Tron 2- Burn 3-Blue stuff/countermagic.
How do we fix it?
1-Tron (or anything that plays eldrazis): Landkill stuff (ghost quarter, etc) for the tron itself, Black removal such as memoricide or jester's cap IMO, aim firstly for the eldrazi/s, then for the planeswalkers which are their wincons and can get rid of our board presence fast, don't forget about oblivion stone though. nevermore may help too, but they can destroy it so IMO the black stuff is better. non-instant removals (detention sphere, etc) can be usable too, but keep in mind that if they cast emrakul, they'll get rid of all yoour permanents which won't allow you to keep casting fogs due to not drawing enough cards.
2- Burn. Leyline of sanctity is the MVP, then nevermore/memoricide for eidolon of the great revel.
3- Blue: Boseiju, who shelters all helps. Remember to save enough fogs to overfog his counters. rest in peace/leyline of the void/tormod’s crypt for snapcaster mage or (again) memoricide or card of the sake. Torpor orb could be a replacement for graveyard hate too if the thing is blanking their snapcasters. Curse of echoes seems sexy too, but expensive, the same applies for teferi, mage of zhalfir
For other decks which don't win via combat damage, see leyline of sanctity. If you're not satisfied, then be a bit narrower using some of the cards mentioned above.
Oh, and my planeswalkers don't die that easy when I have leyline out. So, give 'em a try.
I'm glad to find out you found some answers to the tron matchup as well as others such as amulet bloom (to name a deck that has wincons that don't rely on combat damage or anything leyline of sanctity can't shut down), or for those pesky eidolon of the great revels. I don't really see gurmag angler, and cards of the sake as a threat, but they do become a threat if they're played in a heavy counterspell deck. I totally forgot about surgical extraction, extirpate, memoricide, praetor's grasp, jester's cap, haunting echoes, slaughter games, sadistic sacrament, cranial extraction, etc. I'd play the ones that hit all zones though (the more cards, the better) as I really want to get rid of the stones, planeswalkers and eldrazis, and waiting for one of those cards to hit the gy may take longer than casting a turn 4/5 cranial extraction.
I think I'm gonna give them a try over the o-rings as they can't be removed once they are solved (it sucks to get to exile one of those perms and then watch 'em back on the play as our o-stone got karned).
Beware of rites of flourishing, it's cool if you're playing enough threats IMO, but giving your opponent access to ramp might be dangerous. Specially for the aforementioned matchups.
As for the other draw engines, howling mine is a must as it's the only one we can play turn 2. Apart from kami of the moon which I’m still unsure if to play or not as I’m creatureless (except for ulamog which is more resilient and colonnade which I seldomly play). Temple bell is cool because it’s colorless and can get you or your opponent a draw anytime you want, and if he has 8 cards eot he must discard, but I haven't really found that to be THAT useful. I was playing a full set, but lately I cut a couple of them for a Jace Beleren and a dictate of kruphix, mainly because of maelstrom pulse.
So, Jace Beleren is really cool as it serves as a bodyguard (mostly they try to detour the damage towards him), draw engine and wincon lately, and if you have leyline of sanctity out (which is always a 4 of in my game, as I feel naked if I don't a start a game with it on turn 0) it can't be burned so removal is the only way to get rid of him. I play only one though, as a replacement for temple bell as I mentioned before.
As for Dictate of kruphix, it's really cool to cast it eot as you get the 1st draw and if you're facing a blue deck (with counters on it of course) they have to think twice before countering it or not as they won't have enough mana to counter whatever you play next turn or just casting those flash creatures eot. But otherwise it's just a howling mine. Just 1 copy in order to have a wider array of draw engines.
About the wincons, I'm really loving ob nixilis reignited, draw engine at the cost of only 1 life each, whose ultimate can be unleashed after 4 turns, but once it's done there's no way to get rid of it, it can even hit eldrazis, or any creature that bothers you, and I play enough black to cast it turn 6 (always keep one mana open for fog). The others are jace beleren, ulamog, the infinite gyre, sphinx's tutelage and celestial colonnade 1 copy each. I even though about cutting down the tutelage for some other wincon or another draw engine as it's only function is to make the mill faster (and it works), and I like my permanents to multitask, haha.
I don't think playing Painter's servant is a good idea as you'll be playing one creature whose's ability will only help another permanent, which won't even win you the game on the spot. Having it without tutelage is pointless, and all the blanked removal will go towards him. Unless we're playing against some ramp deck, which eventually got most of his lands on the battlefield, or unless we play some sort of a reversed endless horizons.
If Grindstone was legal, now we're talking.
If you want some janky mill combo play mindcrank + duskmantle guildmage instead. Or even that midnight guard+retraction helix on a ornithopter to mill with an altar of the brood.
Emeria+Kami of the false hope doesn't seem playable at all unless you're on a mono white build or stuff like that.
And if you're trying to splash 4 colours or sth like that, don't forget to bring forbidden orchard in.
I'm mostly playing on xmage, so typically I face a fair amount of janky decks, those players are typically an easy deal as they play on their own and don't mind about our mines. But whenever I face a tier 1/2 player, they ALWAYS get rid of my mines, as they're my only permanents (until I get my planeswalkers online, then the hate goes there).
What have I learnt, 5 games and 8 tix later?
- the more creatures in your opponent's deck, the more successful Turbofog is. The reverse is also true. (duh)
- Turbofog is a deck for which you need to watch the meta before you play (as opposed to a more T1 deck where you can just pick it up and have a decent chance in any given tourney)
- I need to add a bit more white mana to my deck, and maybe use Temple Bell rather than Dictate of Kruphix as that's the main reason for all that blue mana
- enchantment removal is still underplayed, and this is good. (destroy your Twin opponent's Stomping Ground with Ghost Quarter = no more Ancient Grudge for you)
- don't add in Angel's Grace when you took out Leyline of Sanctity, you're just asking for a bolt to the face on your upkeep
- MVP: Leyline of Sanctity (2nd runner up - Sphinx's Tutelage). Awaiting the axe: Angel's Grace.
- I never once ran out of time playing Turbofog (the only time the game timed out was because my G2 opponent tried to ragestall).
- Fogs are fun (:
Agree with almost everything there, except the time issue. I play a slower deck with only 1/2 tutelage and without the ramp rites of flourishing provides, in order to add more consistency to the turbofog shell, which also slows me down. But if I'm enoughly focused I'm not gonna be the one who's taking long turns, just draw+go+fog. Skipping the triggers on xmage might take me some time too, because a misclick can make you lose the game, and if your opponent is playing sth with plenty of triggers it typically gets long. Angel's grace might be an option if you're facing amulet bloom (because of hive mind + pacts), or decks that run some wincon which doesn't involve damage at all, or even against counters because of the split second clause.
I strongly suggest adding at least one way to reshuffle your graveyard so the fogs can keep coming late game.
To all the newer posters, I know it can be painful, but take some time to read what's been discussed before, so we all can manage the same levels of information.
Particularly elixir of immortality, and maze's end variants have been discussed a lot.
Elixir is a core card IMO as it allows you to recur your fogs as well as other stuff, increasing your chances of getting one as you'll have less cards on your deck due to the lands/permanents you already have on the battlefield. It also gives you 5 life which always comes in handy.
About Maze's end variants, it's been said that are slow, the mana base janky, and stuff. I'll just quote dustbunnyelemental on page 5.
No.
Maze's End is a land that comes into play tapped, that requires you to assemble 10 other unique lands that also come into play tapped to win the game.
Let's look at the best case scenario for it:
T1: Gate 1
T2: Gate 2
T3: Gate 3
T4: Rites of Flourishing, Maze's End
T5: Gate 4, Gate 5, return Maze's End look for Gate 6
T6: Gate 7, Maze's End, another Rite (only now do you have enough mana to play your 1st fog)
T7: Gate 8, Gate 9, search Gate 10 with Maze, win.
In your first 10 cards (on play) or 11 (on draw) you need 3 different gates (one of which must have green), Rites and Maze.
In your first 16 cards (on play) or 17 (on draw) you need 8 different gates for this magical Christmasland scenario.
Your wincon is totally noninteractive (except for land destruction coughTronisathinginModern or your Rites dying) which is a plus, but you have no mana to interact with anything your opponent does till T6, by which time you're usually dead in Modern.
Sure you can slow-roll the process which gives you enough time to assemble the necessary Gates, but my traditional Fog deck with no card based wincons and no mill spells can make the opponent draw enough to deck himself by T12-14.
You could replace every land in the traditional Fog deck with Gates, but the CIPT hurts you cos ideally every turn you want enough mana to both Fog (many good fogs i.e. those that save you from burn in addition to creatures cost 3 mana) and play a Howling Mine effect. Plus, once you get your Maze End (which may be on T1, T4 or T7) you can only search out 1 Gate per turn.
You could also try to make it more consistent with Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map whatnot, but every one of these cards you play is one Fog or Mine less and since Turbofog needs a certain density of Fog and Mine effects to work there aren't that many flex spots to work with.
TL:DR - Maze's End is a flavourful card and unique wincon, but it is too clunky to use unless you extensively build around it and with the amount of support it needs, definitely not in a Fog shell.
Current harder matchups IMO (in order of hardness). 1- Tron 2- Burn 3-Blue stuff/countermagic.
How do we fix it?
1-Tron (or anything that plays eldrazis): Landkill stuff (ghost quarter, etc) for the tron itself, Black removal such as memoricide or jester's cap IMO, aim firstly for the eldrazi/s, then for the planeswalkers which are their wincons and can get rid of our board presence fast, don't forget about oblivion stone though. nevermore may help too, but they can destroy it so IMO the black stuff is better. non-instant removals (detention sphere, etc) can be usable too, but keep in mind that if they cast emrakul, they'll get rid of all yoour permanents which won't allow you to keep casting fogs due to not drawing enough cards.
2- Burn. Leyline of sanctity is the MVP, then nevermore/memoricide for eidolon of the great revel.
3- Blue: Boseiju, who shelters all helps. Remember to save enough fogs to overfog his counters. rest in peace/leyline of the void/tormod’s crypt for snapcaster mage or (again) memoricide or card of the sake. Torpor orb could be a replacement for graveyard hate too if the thing is blanking their snapcasters. Curse of echoes seems sexy too, but expensive, the same applies for teferi, mage of zhalfir
For other decks which don't win via combat damage, see leyline of sanctity. If you're not satisfied, then be a bit narrower using some of the cards mentioned above.
Oh, and my planeswalkers don't die that easy when I have leyline out. So, give 'em a try.
All true. For blue decks, this is the main reason i play as many 1 mana fogsas possible. Makes it much easier to out fog their counters. As to how it takes me 40 mins, the opponent doesnt see the light and thinks they can win. I only recently added tutelage so i cant say that now. before it though, wheather i was at fnm or states, they seem to play out g1 for 40 mins. Mazes end is cool and id love to see a Foggy Maze deck be competitive bu the issue is the set up for that deck really turns it into something else. It isnt turbofog anymore after adding in the ways to find your gates and control the board and the other downfall is that all the gates enter tapped. it just takes too much to set up. you need 11 cards to win the game while there are ways to win with 1 card. Elixir isnt for burn.... we only say it helps. You stated the reason why we play it. that you are limited by how many fogs you play. Even if you dont draw all 17-18 you polay, each one you draw decreases your chances of drawing one of your remaining fogs. so wh not gain some life and shuffle them back in to make the odds better and last longer than 17-18 turns? once the deck is low enough between drawing and play lands/turbo pieces, your chances increase of drawing a fog or elixir. Usually we can hold off burn with a leyline type effect long enough that you see elixir enough times that it not just 5 life. its more like 15 or more. espcially when you have 2 or more elixirs. I run a third in the sb for burn along with 3 rest for the weary. i maindeck 4 leyline. Our sb need to adjust to those 3 decks we have issues with. Tron, burn, and counters. Maybe against blue, we need something that doesnt allow them to cast stuff on our turns (gaddok teeg type cards?) Tron needs to either be focused on destroying lands or removing the win cons. i could care less if they blow my stuff up with o-stne if they dont have any win cons left in their deck. and burn is leyline and maybe another similar effect and way to deal with eidolon. if any spots left, maybe we play something to return our turbo to our hand from our gy or counters. Currently for from I side in 3 memoricide, 2 pithing needle, an o-ring and a d-sphere. Against burn I side in 3 RftW, and 1 Elixir (but I alrdy have 4 leyline main, 2 elixir main, 3 dawn charm main (counters a burn spell), and 4 ethereal haze (which correct me if I'm wrong but I believe stops dmg from eidolons ability)
Current harder matchups IMO (in order of hardness). 1- Tron 2- Burn 3-Blue stuff/countermagic.
How do we fix it?
1-Tron (or anything that plays eldrazis): Landkill stuff (ghost quarter, etc) for the tron itself, Black removal such as memoricide or jester's cap IMO, aim firstly for the eldrazi/s, then for the planeswalkers which are their wincons and can get rid of our board presence fast, don't forget about oblivion stone though. nevermore may help too, but they can destroy it so IMO the black stuff is better. non-instant removals (detention sphere, etc) can be usable too, but keep in mind that if they cast emrakul, they'll get rid of all yoour permanents which won't allow you to keep casting fogs due to not drawing enough cards.
2- Burn. Leyline of sanctity is the MVP, then nevermore/memoricide for eidolon of the great revel.
3- Blue: Boseiju, who shelters all helps. Remember to save enough fogs to overfog his counters. rest in peace/leyline of the void/tormod’s crypt for snapcaster mage or (again) memoricide or card of the sake. Torpor orb could be a replacement for graveyard hate too if the thing is blanking their snapcasters. Curse of echoes seems sexy too, but expensive, the same applies for teferi, mage of zhalfir
For other decks which don't win via combat damage, see leyline of sanctity. If you're not satisfied, then be a bit narrower using some of the cards mentioned above.
Oh, and my planeswalkers don't die that easy when I have leyline out. So, give 'em a try.
Totally agree on the difficult matchups, though I would rank counters above burn and maybe level with Tron.
I see Tron as a "combo" deck. Playing against Tron, we're trying to not lose rather than win. They don't play very many wincons, but those they play are really hard to beat. I think some combination of Nevermore/Jester's Cap type effects to strip their deck of Karn/Ugin/O stone should do the trick, and then eventually they will be unable to kill us even with boatloads of mana. The problem is that Jester's Cap can only come out T5 earliest, unless we get a T3 Rites and enough lands. Some sort of land destruction (Ghost Quarter) is also important, but the problem with Ghost Quarter is that it sets us back a land, which is needed for an early Jester's Cap. Unfortunately, all the other Surgical Extraction/Extirpate/Cranial Extraction effects are black. Do you think this is worth running Azorius fogs with a black splash? We give up Rites for 1 more 1-mana fog (which I can't remember the name of but is definitely in this thread) and better hand/library stripping. I don't know if it is better to run Temple Bell (dies to artifact removal which is more common than enchantment hate) or Jace/Dictate in the spot.
The problem with 1 mana fogs in my opinion is that you need the 3-mana fogs (Safe Passage, Riot Control) to buy time to find a Leyline against Burn or in case they kill the Leyline. I like Curse of Echoes (and it is great against burn too) but a 5-mana answer to counters is not going to cut it without counterspell backup on our side. Boseiju is awesome but easily dealt with via Ghost Quarter. The Surgical Extraction effects will help, but we still don't have a good answer to control in my opinion. Unfotunately we can't run stuff like Defense Grid
TLDR:
1. Is it worth giving up green for black to shift our Jester's cap effect from T5 to T4 (Modern is supposed to be a T4 format)?
2. More anti-counter help?
I'm also running esper. Green nvr did it for me and doesn't have anything I care about to make me wanna run it. TB to me is better since you control when they draw the card.it forces discards on eot sometimes and doesn't allow them to use what they drew until their next turn. It also allows you to draw before declare attackers step to find the fog you may not have drawn from mines/dictates/rites. Plus if you run tutelage, you can tutelage at instant speed since we can tap bell whenever. Black also provides discard and memoricide type cards. We can also select from blacks minimal and marginal land destruction. Against burn, I don't even consider riot control an option because they run 12 creatures which means you're not getting enough life from it to survive so it's as if you're playing a form in a fog when you could be playing a one man of fog. Safe passage is decent since it can stop a burn spell but why pay 3 mana to do this when you can use a ethereal haze because once you play it they aren't going to keep running burn spells into you since it won't affect that turn. I run that and dawn charm since you can counter their early burn spells which also allows you to spare a few turns to find leyline. But that's why I run all 4 main deck. Better chance of finding it or having it in the opening hand and it shut down so many decks game 1 that normally when you drop it turns out they just scoop. Burn might not scoop game one since they have Eidolon but it's pretty hard for them to do much until they hit and eidolon and even then if we have to delete out we can probably be eidolon if we've been playing smart against burn. It also makes storm, if they use grapeshot as their win con, scapeshift, 8 rack, ad nauseum and a few other decks scoop game one as well. I'm kind of thinking about running one sacred foundry main deck and running that new land destruction card that lets you go through their hand library and graveyard in the sideboard for Tron because if you take any of their Tron pieces their tech slows down tremendously. I'm also still going to repeat that I don't really see the big deal in Oblivion stone if we can just remove the threats from their deck. They run Wurmcoil Karn, ugin, and emrakul. We can take a hit or two from wurmcoil if it means removing karn ugin and Emrakul or a piece of tron. And if they run enough creature when cons then that's why I have pithing needle in the sideboard for ugin and karn alongside o-ring and d-sphere. Against counters we need to probably run something that either punishes them for playing a counter spell on our turn or stops them from playing counterspells as instants. Green has cards like Eyes of the Wisent and there are cards that stop them from playing counters on our turn such as grand abolisher . By the way the only other modern deck I have fully built and spent the money on is burn so it's the only dick I can test against with turbo fog and I have found that it is very difficult for burn to win game 1 with a line in play yes their game to get better because of revelry but even then if you have elixirs and some life game plus the dawn charms you can usually last long enough to either find another way line or shuffle everything back in and keep fighting ley lines to beat them game 2. It gets really difficult if they drop 2 eidolons or more but we can always hit them with Nevermore or detention sphere or Oblivion Ring. Against burn normally if you gain 7 or more like they have a hard time coming back but because our deck is the way it is we need to either gain more than that to hold them off or play more ways to not be targeted. Also... we have sadistic sacrament but the 3 black may be hard. But yeah.... it's an option for those running enough fetches. Another card that may be interesting is Narset Transcendent
Damn, I saw some guy playing a mono green stompy deck yesterday, using vexing shusher as a sb answer to control, and I thought "that must be THE answer". We don't run many creatures unfortunately so probably all removal will go towards him, the same applies to grand abolisher. Possibly if the opponent sees we're not playing creatures, he might sb out all his creature removal so we can play it then. So if you're running green/red you might want to take a look at him.
Dustbunny, Surgical extraction can be played for 2 life also, so it's colorless IMO . About giving up green, I haven't really tried it, I'm going esper right now, and still have to try the black sb tech. But just remember any deck can actually run a couple urborg, tomb of yawgmoth if splashing black is the issue. Also, I don't think that THIS archetype is included on the turn 4 format thing. We're more of a +10 turn thing, and as long as the other deck follows our rhythm, we shouldn’t have any trouble playing jester’s cap, memoricide or whatever hate tech we play.
Tyler, I totally forgot about pithing needle that's possibly our best shot against the planeswalkers and oblivion stone due to its low cost. Suppression field can slow them down for a while too, as well as their land fetchers such as expedition map and their cantrips chromatic star, etc. It’s a double edged weapon though, as it would also affect our temple bells, planeswalkers, elixir of immortality and fetches.
Oh, and Narset’s first and ultimate abilities are really useful for our deck. It has a high chance of being a temple bell, and the latter it’s basically a dovescape without the birds, which seems awesome. Wouldn’t know which card to replace though..
BTW. If my internet provider decides to fix my connection this weekend, and if it somehow sums up for this primer, I can try to record a couple matches on xmage so anyone can see how the deck works, can correct me, insult me for not playing fetchlands and for bringing lame sb tech and stuff. I’m not that good as a pilot, I typically get nervous and play wrong cards and make childlish mistakes. But if it’s somehow useful, I can do that.
Oh, and another janky mill combo if you’re interested in is: Altar of the brood + Leonin Relic-warder + phyrexian metamorph. Have the metamorph copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again.
Well... you get it. All those ETB triggers+ altar of the brood should do it. It also works with the soul sisters and others.
You can do it with 3 oblivion rings too, making them exile each other.
Cheers.
SST.
Edit: I think we're missing pollen lullaby here. Is it really that bad? I mean, at worst it's an overcosted fog, but at best it's 2 fogs in one card, and probably better depending on which creatures we forbid to untap.
Stopping emrakul for instance from hitting us next turn and avoid the annihilator for a turn, which means 1 more turn to find an answer, shouldn't be that bad. Or simply having one more turn in which we don't have to play a fog as creatures are already tapped out, which would allow us to spend all our mana pool on whatever we want to cast, without worrying about combat damage next turn.
IDK, just thinkin' out loud.
Anyone who has the ability to record and post vids here or the link to the vids should. We help each other with constructive criticism. Plus I love watching vids. I'm gonna bug TWoo again to try running a turbo list.
Damn, I saw some guy playing a mono green stompy deck yesterday, using vexing shusher as a sb answer to control, and I thought "that must be THE answer". We don't run many creatures unfortunately so probably all removal will go towards him, the same applies to grand abolisher. Possibly if the opponent sees we're not playing creatures, he might sb out all his creature removal so we can play it then. So if you're running green/red you might want to take a look at him.
Dustbunny, Surgical extraction can be played for 2 life also, so it's colorless IMO . About giving up green, I haven't really tried it, I'm going esper right now, and still have to try the black sb tech. But just remember any deck can actually run a couple urborg, tomb of yawgmoth if splashing black is the issue. Also, I don't think that THIS archetype is included on the turn 4 format thing. We're more of a +10 turn thing, and as long as the other deck follows our rhythm, we shouldn’t have any trouble playing jester’s cap, memoricide or whatever hate tech we play.
Problem with Vexing Shusher/Grand Abolisher: 2/3 of the common blue archetypes in Modern also have access to red (i.e. Lightning Bolt/Electrolyse) - Twin and Jeskai/Grixis Delver. Shusher will only help against Merfolk. New Narset looks good, we do have problems with decks with less creatures after all (:
Although we win on T10+, most other decks can potentially set up a gamewinning board by T4. If Tron finds all its pieces, then can assemble 7 mana for Karn/Ugin on T3 (but usually, they spend 1 turn playing a forest for Ancient Stirrings/Sylvan Scrying so they usually set up on T4). We need to start hand/deck stripping them before that to stand a chance, and Jester's Cap is just too slow. Memoricide is just in time. I rather play Memoricide and Cranial Extraction than Surgical Extraction, because Emrakul won't be in the graveyard and usually you won't see Karn/Ugin/Eidolon there either since we have few ways to destroy stuff barring Supreme Verdict.
Thank you to everyone who contributes to this thread and keeps it alive. We may never be T1 but I'm glad there are others who try to make this deck pull out wins and test different strategies and test new cards and discuss options. No opinion or option is a stupid one. Kp the discussion coming and let's see if we can't Kp the deck rolling out random wins. There was a mono white version that I watched on youtube. The guy who plays and posted his vids is T1GlistenerElf. I wish he had his deck tech for that deck bc most of his modern decks he plays on YouTube have deck techs.
I'm working on the new primer right now, so we can update it regularly. Just tweaking a bit this primer including some new card choices, strategies, corrected typos and such, don't expect big modifications as it's the first time I do this.
Once loaded, I'll be hearing suggestions and corrections, please.
Sphinx's Tutelage is my main win condition, and I have the backup of Celestial Colonnade beatdown.
Main:
4x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Celestial Colonnade
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
2x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Cryptic Command
4x Ethereal Haze
4x Fog
4x Holy Day
2x Pollen Lullaby
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Supreme Verdict
3x Riot Control
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Rites of Flourishing
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
Side:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Rest in Peace
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Timely Reinforcements
Burn is a problem for this deck, especially Eidolon of the Great Revel. I think I want to include 4 Runed Halo somewhere in the 75 to help deal with it. The life gain from Timely Reinforcements and Riot Control can really help out in those matches. Riot Control has the added advantage of preventing damage from Storm, Scapeshift, and Melira.
Sphinx's Revelation is there to power out wins with Tutelage, and the lifegain can play an important role in some matchups.
The single Elixir of Immortality is there to prevent me from milling myself, and the incidental lifegain can be good. It also puts my fogs back in the deck when I have an especially long and grindy match.
I really like going green for Rites of Flourishing, since it lets me drop it on turn 3, then play another land to keep up for a Fog effect. I have also considered running the new Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger as a one-of for an alternate win condition, since hitting 10 mana is not uncommon with Rites out.
I know there is probably some room for improvement here and suggestions are appreciated.
3x Rest for the Weary
3x Memoricide
2x Pithing Needle
2x Gideon, Champion of Justice
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Detention Sphere
1x Rest in Peace
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Elixir of Immortality
With running tutelage, has anyone wanted to try running Painter's Servant ?
Scratch that. Possibly good but don't think it's got the same potential as grindstone since grindstone doesn't care if u hit a land or not while tutelage does. I really wish grindstone was modern legal. I'm sure it'd probably get banned for being too fast for modern but I fly wanna play that deck in legacy but yeah... not spending money for 4 recruiters. Haha
The Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Kami of the Crescent Moon are being replaced with Jester's Cap. Would it be worth splashing black to add Memoricide or red for crumble to dust instead?
4x Flooded Strand
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
3x Kabira Crossroads
2x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
5x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
2x Tranquil Cove
Sorcery (3)
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Jace Beleren
2x Angel's Grace
1x Dawn Charm
4x Ethereal Haze
4x Holy Day
4x Pollen Lullaby
2x Riot Control
Enchantment (9)
4x Dictate of Kruphix
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Sphinx's Tutelage
Artifact (4)
4x Howling Mine
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3x Jester's Cap
1x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Meddling Mage
4x Negate
3x Runed Halo
edit: I'm also interested in what people think of kami of false hope + emeria, the sky ruin as a hard fog lock. The downside is obvious that kami is bad vs instant speed removal, but the upside is that if you get it online, a lot of decks have to concede to it.
Ok... my opinion is its OK at best. If you wanna mill g1, it's trash bc it shuffles both players. If you are built to win with dmg, then go for it. I wish it was an instant and stopped the turn turn in which it was played. I won't play it bc usually I run a planes walker to win the game and mill as the back up win con since our deck has that as a natural thing. I'd say if your built to win with dmg via manlands or creatures go for it. If your going the tutelage route I'd avoid it unless we find a MU where it's useful in the sb. Also, how often are you worried about refueling your hand? I've never had a problem having 7 on my turn. On the combo, I like it bc even if they instant speed remove it, we can sac it in response and fog for the turn. Emeria can be difficult on 3 color decks if you aren't heavily white. I play plenty of white but I'm not sure it'd be easy to get 7 plains in play. But I'd say it's Def worth trying. I do love the idea of it
As for a Kami of False Hope Emeria, the Sky Ruin lock, it's great once in place, but the Kami is very risky before then. We would be enabling all of our opponents instant removal spells, so we would need other fogs in hand as backup. By the time it would be online on turn 9 at the earliest, we should have enough turbo to consistently draw fogs, or something like Day's Undoing to refill our hand. If there are some open sideboard slots, it could be worth running a few copies of Emeria main, and siding in the Kamis game two after their removal is sided out. We would also need to be base white with all of our other colors coming from shocks or the new tango lands to meet the 7 plains requirement. I thinks it may be worth a try with two or so kamis, and would be interested to hear how it goes.
New and improved:
4 Ethereal Haze
1 Holy Day
2 Dawn Charm
4 Safe Passage
4 Riot Control
2 Supreme Verdict
Turbo
4 Howling Mine
2 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Temple Bell
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
Lands
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Forest
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Rest in Peace
4 Angel's Grace
4 Nevermore
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Open the Vaults
Any of the legendary Eldrazi can replace Emmy, it's just there to ensure I don't lose to mill.
Got rid of 2 Dictates (don't like the double blue mana cost), 1 Dawn Charm and a Psychic Spiral to make room.
Thoughts?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
The plan is to win g1, lose g2 and scout their sideboard tech, then win g3 by using Nevermore or other answers on their tech. (or, use g1 to scout their tech and lose against say an Eldrazi, then hopefully take both g2/3 after packing answers). Based on what deck you are facing, you can also predict what to use Nevermore on - e.g. if facing Tron name Ugin/Karn depending on what you saw g1, if facing BG name Maelstrom Pulse and then Abrupt Decay, against anything with black or red add in an extra Leyline of Sanctity cos they will try to either destroy your hand or bolt you more (and if red, name Skullcrack). I haven't found a good alternative wincon yet.
Since a lot of Modern decks crack fetches, search for stuff (Sylvan Scrying) and in general draw more cards for themselves than this deck, in a straight mill war (without Tutelage) you will usually win. Actually, even with no "selfish draw" on their side we will still always win as they draw first off our Howling Mine effects, so they will run out first. Unless they have Eldrazi or elixir, without Tutelage Fog can win by T12+ without any mill at all. With 17 fogs, we should be covered till then. Actually, I rather run Eldrazi than Elixir of Immortality/Psychic Spiral as the shuffle effect is triggered and less easily countered (and decks that seek to mill you WILL have blue, so they WILL have counters).
Let me know how Ob Nixilis works.. I find protecting planeswalkers is tough in the opening, so I didn't run Jace Beleren. But I guess it's different when dropping him after the game stabilises. TBH I think we should focus on ways to protect our turbo since a smart player will just kill all our Turbo and then tutelage, Ob etc will not save us.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
In any case the number of fogs in your deck is a hardcap on how many turns you can survive. I play 17-18. So I can live for 17-18 turns give or take a few. If the game goes to 20+ turns I lose to creatures. Imagine playing a Abzan opponent who nukes every single turbo piece you put down, making the game drag out because each of you is drawing only 1 card per turn and you are fogging him every turn. At some point in time, you will hit land and/or run out of fogs, allowing your opponent to one or two-shot you with his creatures. This is why smart players go after the turbo pieces.
I don't agree the 5 life from elixir helps against burn. Smart burn players play around us by dropping burn spells on our turn and/or burning in response to fogs, so we have to fog our turn as well as theirs (they attack with creatures on their turn). Eventually, we run out of fogs since fogging creatures is card disadvantage. 5 life is not going to save you in this situation, this is only 2 Lightning Bolts. Much rather play Leyline of Sanctity, or Nevermore. One Nevermore naming bolt saves you 12 life if they haven't played a bolt by the time Nevermore comes down. And the best RDW target for Nevermore isn't even Bolt, it's Eidolon of the Great Revel. That thing just kills us dead since every fog becomes a Shock to our own face.
Edit: Another good reason to play Nevermore is it draws flak away from your Leyline which red decks just auto lose to. Most red decks nowadays play Destructive Revelry or something similar to counter Leyline.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Here's what I played:
4 Ethereal Haze
1 Holy Day
2 Dawn Charm
4 Safe Passage
4 Riot Control
Turbo
4 Howling Mine
3 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Temple Bell
Wincon/utility:
1 Jester's Cap
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Sphinx's Tutelage
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Forest
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Rest in Peace
4 Angel's Grace
3 Nevermore
2 Jester's Cap
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Basically similar to what I posted earlier, except for the addition of Jester's Cap. I was getting sick of losing G1 to random elixirs, Zulaport Cutthroat, what-have-you and I thought the "search deck" function would help with scouting tech.
Game 1: GW Bogles (2-0)
This went exactly how you'd expect a match against a deck which relies on creature damage to play out, which is very well. G2 I sided out my Leyline of Sanctity for Nevermore and managed to stop his sideboard tech, which was Seal of Primordium on my turbo pieces.
Game 2: Abzan Aristocrats (2-1)
This was a build running Doomed Traveler, Tukatongue Thallid etc and a few sac outlets, then trying to kill either through aggro or Blood Artist. I lost G1 as I couldn't get white mana up fast enough and died to token aggro, backed up by Abzan Ascendancy. It didn't help that his Tidehollow Sculler kept exiling my fogs in hand. My changes for G2 were to bring in an additional Leyline of Sanctity, as it helps immensely against Blood Artist and helps against discard which is Abzan's usual way of dealing with threats. With a Leyline in my opening hand for both g2 and g3, even my opponent's SB plan of Stain the Mind didn't work and he ended up ragestalling by endlessly looping his tokens through sac outlets.
Game 3: RG ramp/Tooth and Nail (0-2)
This deck aimed to Tooth and Nail into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Xenagos, God of Revels. I expectedly lost G1, so my SB plan for g2 was to remove the more expensive fogs (Safe Passage, Riot Control) and jam pack my deck with every copy of Nevermore and Jester's Cap I had. Unfortunately, I was stuck trying to find a second white mana source and he went off the turn before I would have exiled his Emrakul with Jester's Cap, with a Nevermore in hand. I had no way to deal with a T5 Emrakul and conceded.
Game 4: Splinter Twin (0-2)
By taking out both my Supreme Verdicts, I was trying to improve my matchup against random decks/cards at the expense of my matchup against control. I think that control is a horrible matchup for Turbofog. Turbofog has a horrible card disadvantage - every fog you spend on creatures is a loss of a card, but in the end you use your turbo to draw so many cards such that even if the opponent draws his whole deck and you only draw half of yours, you can still win. Unfortunately, blue both makes us waste more than one fog per turn (by countering our first fog, so we have to play a second) and bouncing/countering our turbo, so we get starved of cards especially compared to blue's superior card draw and selection. Cryptic Command is horribad, as it both bounces a turbo piece, usually after the blue player has benefitted from it, and counters a fog. Even BG, with their Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse, can only do one of the above. In the end, this backfired quite badly as both my last 2 games were against blue decks.
I almost took G1 against Twin, though. I managed to stick a Sphinx's Tutelage and a few turbo pieces and slowly managed to mill him out. In the end, he had an active combo being held at bay by fogs and 2 cards in the library. I had 2 Howling Mines and 3 mana up, sufficient to cast either Dictate of Kruphix or Safe Passage. On his upkeep, he used Cryptic Command to send one mine back to my hand so he would have exactly zero cards in his library and could survive one more turn. I played Dictate in response, then he made a Deceiver Exarch token and tapped my Howling Mine. Ouch! I forgot about the untap clause, but I tunnelvisioned when I should have played Safe Passage which would have been a safer (pun intended) way to end the turn.
G2 was more counters, more bouncing of my turbo pieces and more Cryptics. It wasn't close.
Game 5: Jeskai Delver (0-2)
Same as above, but worse. With added burn over Splinter Twin and higher powered creatures (Geist of Saint Traft), not only did I have to deal with my fogs getting countered, eventually I also had to fog on my own turn to protect me from his burn spells. Eventually I ran out of fogs. G2 I managed to get a Leyline out, but he just bounced my Leyline with Cryptic Command and carried on.
Overall, I think I could have gone 3-2 instead of 2-3 (which would have allowed me to break even on the entry fee), had I managed to land Nevermore (naming Tooth and Nail) in Game 3, which would have bought me the time needed to exile Emrakul. But, in game 3 I wasn't playing Turbofog, more of disrupting the opponent's combo. I don't think I could have won against either of the last 2 decks, though.
What have I learnt, 5 games and 8 tix later?
- the more creatures in your opponent's deck, the more successful Turbofog is. The reverse is also true. (duh)
- Turbofog is a deck for which you need to watch the meta before you play (as opposed to a more T1 deck where you can just pick it up and have a decent chance in any given tourney)
- I need to add a bit more white mana to my deck, and maybe use Temple Bell rather than Dictate of Kruphix as that's the main reason for all that blue mana
- enchantment removal is still underplayed, and this is good. (destroy your Twin opponent's Stomping Ground with Ghost Quarter = no more Ancient Grudge for you)
- don't add in Angel's Grace when you took out Leyline of Sanctity, you're just asking for a bolt to the face on your upkeep
- MVP: Leyline of Sanctity (2nd runner up - Sphinx's Tutelage). Awaiting the axe: Angel's Grace.
- I never once ran out of time playing Turbofog (the only time the game timed out was because my G2 opponent tried to ragestall).
- Fogs are fun (:
Would I do it again? Yes, if it didn't cost 8 tix. Since it does, I'll wait for Pauper leagues
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Both of my draws were after a game 1 win then my opponent winning game 2. One the players won on turn 5 after going to time, the other I got hit with a Thalia, then a surprise Spellstutter Sprite that got me.
Here are my matchups:
Round 1: Mono-Red Burn 2-0 Win
This can be a troublesome matchup for me, but luckily, my opponent never landed an Eidolon of the Great Revel either game. Being Mono-red really helped me to get the win game 1 with Sphinx's Tutelage.
Game 2, I boarded in 4 Timely Reinforcements and 4 Leyline of Sanctity and was able to win pretty easily.
Round 2: Abzan 1-1 Draw
Game 1 was incredibly long. I got caught by a Maelstrom Pulse with 2 Sphinx's Tutelage out, but I got my Elixir of Immortality to shuffle them back in. I was finally able to land another Tutelage and cast a very big Sphinx's Revelation for the win. Game 1 took almost 40 minutes.
Game 2, I obliged my opponent by playing as quickly as possible, and I got killed by a Manland on turn 5 of time in round, after casting 3 Supreme Verdict to clear the board.
I had boarded in 2 Supreme Verdict, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, and (I think) 2 Rest in Peace .
Round 3: Bant Collected Chord 1-1-1 Draw
Game 1 I won pretty straight up, my opponent tried to combo off with Knight of the Reliquary and Retreat to Coralhelm and thinned his deck way out so my Tutelage hit for a lot.
Game 2 I was doing pretty well, and I tapped more than I needed to (I left up 2 mana for 2 fog effects), my Opponent had a huge board presense and used Chord of Calling to get Thalia, Guardian, Thraben on my turn, then attacked and countered my fog with a Spellstutter Sprite. Kudos to him, it was a great play that I was not expecting. Those collected decks full of 1-ofs are hard to predict.
Game 3 Basically started, then went to turns so we drew.
I had boarded in 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Detention Sphere, and 4 Leyline of Sanctity (to avoid the mill from a Hedron Crab with the Kight/Retreat combo, and to avoid Melira combos).
Round 4: ??? 2-0 Win
I got paired up against a BW mostly Standard Allies deck. Not sure exactly what it was, but it wasn't really tuned to be competitive. Though, I almost lost game 1 to his Retreat to Hagra which was draining me for 2-3 every turn with my Rites of Flourishings out. I boarded in my 2 Detention Sphere and 4 Timely Reinforcements for the extra life gain. I won this one pretty easily.
Overall, it was a great night. Had some really close fun games, with a lot to keep track of. Everyone loved seeing Turbo Fog, and I'm looking forward to playing it more (and hoping I keep avoiding the burn decks!).
I'm glad to find out you found some answers to the tron matchup as well as others such as amulet bloom (to name a deck that has wincons that don't rely on combat damage or anything leyline of sanctity can't shut down), or for those pesky eidolon of the great revels. I don't really see gurmag angler, and cards of the sake as a threat, but they do become a threat if they're played in a heavy counterspell deck. I totally forgot about surgical extraction, extirpate, memoricide, praetor's grasp, jester's cap, haunting echoes, slaughter games, sadistic sacrament, cranial extraction, etc. I'd play the ones that hit all zones though (the more cards, the better) as I really want to get rid of the stones, planeswalkers and eldrazis, and waiting for one of those cards to hit the gy may take longer than casting a turn 4/5 cranial extraction.
I think I'm gonna give them a try over the o-rings as they can't be removed once they are solved (it sucks to get to exile one of those perms and then watch 'em back on the play as our o-stone got karned).
Beware of rites of flourishing, it's cool if you're playing enough threats IMO, but giving your opponent access to ramp might be dangerous. Specially for the aforementioned matchups.
As for the other draw engines, howling mine is a must as it's the only one we can play turn 2. Apart from kami of the moon which I’m still unsure if to play or not as I’m creatureless (except for ulamog which is more resilient and colonnade which I seldomly play).
Temple bell is cool because it’s colorless and can get you or your opponent a draw anytime you want, and if he has 8 cards eot he must discard, but I haven't really found that to be THAT useful. I was playing a full set, but lately I cut a couple of them for a Jace Beleren and a dictate of kruphix, mainly because of maelstrom pulse.
So, Jace Beleren is really cool as it serves as a bodyguard (mostly they try to detour the damage towards him), draw engine and wincon lately, and if you have leyline of sanctity out (which is always a 4 of in my game, as I feel naked if I don't a start a game with it on turn 0) it can't be burned so removal is the only way to get rid of him. I play only one though, as a replacement for temple bell as I mentioned before.
As for Dictate of kruphix, it's really cool to cast it eot as you get the 1st draw and if you're facing a blue deck (with counters on it of course) they have to think twice before countering it or not as they won't have enough mana to counter whatever you play next turn or just casting those flash creatures eot. But otherwise it's just a howling mine. Just 1 copy in order to have a wider array of draw engines.
About the wincons, I'm really loving ob nixilis reignited, draw engine at the cost of only 1 life each, whose ultimate can be unleashed after 4 turns, but once it's done there's no way to get rid of it, it can even hit eldrazis, or any creature that bothers you, and I play enough black to cast it turn 6 (always keep one mana open for fog). The others are jace beleren, ulamog, the infinite gyre, sphinx's tutelage and celestial colonnade 1 copy each. I even though about cutting down the tutelage for some other wincon or another draw engine as it's only function is to make the mill faster (and it works), and I like my permanents to multitask, haha.
I don't think playing Painter's servant is a good idea as you'll be playing one creature whose's ability will only help another permanent, which won't even win you the game on the spot. Having it without tutelage is pointless, and all the blanked removal will go towards him. Unless we're playing against some ramp deck, which eventually got most of his lands on the battlefield, or unless we play some sort of a reversed endless horizons.
If Grindstone was legal, now we're talking.
If you want some janky mill combo play mindcrank + duskmantle guildmage instead. Or even that midnight guard+retraction helix on a ornithopter to mill with an altar of the brood.
Emeria+Kami of the false hope doesn't seem playable at all unless you're on a mono white build or stuff like that.
And if you're trying to splash 4 colours or sth like that, don't forget to bring forbidden orchard in.
I'm mostly playing on xmage, so typically I face a fair amount of janky decks, those players are typically an easy deal as they play on their own and don't mind about our mines. But whenever I face a tier 1/2 player, they ALWAYS get rid of my mines, as they're my only permanents (until I get my planeswalkers online, then the hate goes there).
Agree with almost everything there, except the time issue. I play a slower deck with only 1/2 tutelage and without the ramp rites of flourishing provides, in order to add more consistency to the turbofog shell, which also slows me down. But if I'm enoughly focused I'm not gonna be the one who's taking long turns, just draw+go+fog. Skipping the triggers on xmage might take me some time too, because a misclick can make you lose the game, and if your opponent is playing sth with plenty of triggers it typically gets long.
Angel's grace might be an option if you're facing amulet bloom (because of hive mind + pacts), or decks that run some wincon which doesn't involve damage at all, or even against counters because of the split second clause.
I strongly suggest adding at least one way to reshuffle your graveyard so the fogs can keep coming late game.
To all the newer posters, I know it can be painful, but take some time to read what's been discussed before, so we all can manage the same levels of information.
Particularly elixir of immortality, and maze's end variants have been discussed a lot.
Elixir is a core card IMO as it allows you to recur your fogs as well as other stuff, increasing your chances of getting one as you'll have less cards on your deck due to the lands/permanents you already have on the battlefield. It also gives you 5 life which always comes in handy.
About Maze's end variants, it's been said that are slow, the mana base janky, and stuff. I'll just quote dustbunnyelemental on page 5.
Current harder matchups IMO (in order of hardness). 1- Tron 2- Burn 3-Blue stuff/countermagic.
How do we fix it?
1-Tron (or anything that plays eldrazis): Landkill stuff (ghost quarter, etc) for the tron itself, Black removal such as memoricide or jester's cap IMO, aim firstly for the eldrazi/s, then for the planeswalkers which are their wincons and can get rid of our board presence fast, don't forget about oblivion stone though. nevermore may help too, but they can destroy it so IMO the black stuff is better. non-instant removals (detention sphere, etc) can be usable too, but keep in mind that if they cast emrakul, they'll get rid of all yoour permanents which won't allow you to keep casting fogs due to not drawing enough cards.
2- Burn. Leyline of sanctity is the MVP, then nevermore/memoricide for eidolon of the great revel.
3- Blue: Boseiju, who shelters all helps. Remember to save enough fogs to overfog his counters. rest in peace/leyline of the void/tormod’s crypt for snapcaster mage or (again) memoricide or card of the sake. Torpor orb could be a replacement for graveyard hate too if the thing is blanking their snapcasters. Curse of echoes seems sexy too, but expensive, the same applies for teferi, mage of zhalfir
For other decks which don't win via combat damage, see leyline of sanctity. If you're not satisfied, then be a bit narrower using some of the cards mentioned above.
Oh, and my planeswalkers don't die that easy when I have leyline out. So, give 'em a try.
All true. For blue decks, this is the main reason i play as many 1 mana fogsas possible. Makes it much easier to out fog their counters. As to how it takes me 40 mins, the opponent doesnt see the light and thinks they can win. I only recently added tutelage so i cant say that now. before it though, wheather i was at fnm or states, they seem to play out g1 for 40 mins. Mazes end is cool and id love to see a Foggy Maze deck be competitive bu the issue is the set up for that deck really turns it into something else. It isnt turbofog anymore after adding in the ways to find your gates and control the board and the other downfall is that all the gates enter tapped. it just takes too much to set up. you need 11 cards to win the game while there are ways to win with 1 card. Elixir isnt for burn.... we only say it helps. You stated the reason why we play it. that you are limited by how many fogs you play. Even if you dont draw all 17-18 you polay, each one you draw decreases your chances of drawing one of your remaining fogs. so wh not gain some life and shuffle them back in to make the odds better and last longer than 17-18 turns? once the deck is low enough between drawing and play lands/turbo pieces, your chances increase of drawing a fog or elixir. Usually we can hold off burn with a leyline type effect long enough that you see elixir enough times that it not just 5 life. its more like 15 or more. espcially when you have 2 or more elixirs. I run a third in the sb for burn along with 3 rest for the weary. i maindeck 4 leyline. Our sb need to adjust to those 3 decks we have issues with. Tron, burn, and counters. Maybe against blue, we need something that doesnt allow them to cast stuff on our turns (gaddok teeg type cards?) Tron needs to either be focused on destroying lands or removing the win cons. i could care less if they blow my stuff up with o-stne if they dont have any win cons left in their deck. and burn is leyline and maybe another similar effect and way to deal with eidolon. if any spots left, maybe we play something to return our turbo to our hand from our gy or counters. Currently for from I side in 3 memoricide, 2 pithing needle, an o-ring and a d-sphere. Against burn I side in 3 RftW, and 1 Elixir (but I alrdy have 4 leyline main, 2 elixir main, 3 dawn charm main (counters a burn spell), and 4 ethereal haze (which correct me if I'm wrong but I believe stops dmg from eidolons ability)
Totally agree on the difficult matchups, though I would rank counters above burn and maybe level with Tron.
I see Tron as a "combo" deck. Playing against Tron, we're trying to not lose rather than win. They don't play very many wincons, but those they play are really hard to beat. I think some combination of Nevermore/Jester's Cap type effects to strip their deck of Karn/Ugin/O stone should do the trick, and then eventually they will be unable to kill us even with boatloads of mana. The problem is that Jester's Cap can only come out T5 earliest, unless we get a T3 Rites and enough lands. Some sort of land destruction (Ghost Quarter) is also important, but the problem with Ghost Quarter is that it sets us back a land, which is needed for an early Jester's Cap. Unfortunately, all the other Surgical Extraction/Extirpate/Cranial Extraction effects are black. Do you think this is worth running Azorius fogs with a black splash? We give up Rites for 1 more 1-mana fog (which I can't remember the name of but is definitely in this thread) and better hand/library stripping. I don't know if it is better to run Temple Bell (dies to artifact removal which is more common than enchantment hate) or Jace/Dictate in the spot.
The problem with 1 mana fogs in my opinion is that you need the 3-mana fogs (Safe Passage, Riot Control) to buy time to find a Leyline against Burn or in case they kill the Leyline. I like Curse of Echoes (and it is great against burn too) but a 5-mana answer to counters is not going to cut it without counterspell backup on our side. Boseiju is awesome but easily dealt with via Ghost Quarter. The Surgical Extraction effects will help, but we still don't have a good answer to control in my opinion. Unfotunately we can't run stuff like Defense Grid
TLDR:
1. Is it worth giving up green for black to shift our Jester's cap effect from T5 to T4 (Modern is supposed to be a T4 format)?
2. More anti-counter help?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Dustbunny, Surgical extraction can be played for 2 life also, so it's colorless IMO . About giving up green, I haven't really tried it, I'm going esper right now, and still have to try the black sb tech. But just remember any deck can actually run a couple urborg, tomb of yawgmoth if splashing black is the issue. Also, I don't think that THIS archetype is included on the turn 4 format thing. We're more of a +10 turn thing, and as long as the other deck follows our rhythm, we shouldn’t have any trouble playing jester’s cap, memoricide or whatever hate tech we play.
Tyler, I totally forgot about pithing needle that's possibly our best shot against the planeswalkers and oblivion stone due to its low cost. Suppression field can slow them down for a while too, as well as their land fetchers such as expedition map and their cantrips chromatic star, etc. It’s a double edged weapon though, as it would also affect our temple bells, planeswalkers, elixir of immortality and fetches.
Oh, and Narset’s first and ultimate abilities are really useful for our deck. It has a high chance of being a temple bell, and the latter it’s basically a dovescape without the birds, which seems awesome. Wouldn’t know which card to replace though..
BTW. If my internet provider decides to fix my connection this weekend, and if it somehow sums up for this primer, I can try to record a couple matches on xmage so anyone can see how the deck works, can correct me, insult me for not playing fetchlands and for bringing lame sb tech and stuff. I’m not that good as a pilot, I typically get nervous and play wrong cards and make childlish mistakes. But if it’s somehow useful, I can do that.
Oh, and another janky mill combo if you’re interested in is: Altar of the brood + Leonin Relic-warder + phyrexian metamorph. Have the metamorph copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again, then copy leonin relic-warder, make it exile itself, the 2nd ability triggers so it enters the battlefield again.
Well... you get it. All those ETB triggers+ altar of the brood should do it. It also works with the soul sisters and others.
You can do it with 3 oblivion rings too, making them exile each other.
Cheers.
SST.
Edit: I think we're missing pollen lullaby here. Is it really that bad? I mean, at worst it's an overcosted fog, but at best it's 2 fogs in one card, and probably better depending on which creatures we forbid to untap.
Stopping emrakul for instance from hitting us next turn and avoid the annihilator for a turn, which means 1 more turn to find an answer, shouldn't be that bad. Or simply having one more turn in which we don't have to play a fog as creatures are already tapped out, which would allow us to spend all our mana pool on whatever we want to cast, without worrying about combat damage next turn.
IDK, just thinkin' out loud.
Problem with Vexing Shusher/Grand Abolisher: 2/3 of the common blue archetypes in Modern also have access to red (i.e. Lightning Bolt/Electrolyse) - Twin and Jeskai/Grixis Delver. Shusher will only help against Merfolk. New Narset looks good, we do have problems with decks with less creatures after all (:
Although we win on T10+, most other decks can potentially set up a gamewinning board by T4. If Tron finds all its pieces, then can assemble 7 mana for Karn/Ugin on T3 (but usually, they spend 1 turn playing a forest for Ancient Stirrings/Sylvan Scrying so they usually set up on T4). We need to start hand/deck stripping them before that to stand a chance, and Jester's Cap is just too slow. Memoricide is just in time. I rather play Memoricide and Cranial Extraction than Surgical Extraction, because Emrakul won't be in the graveyard and usually you won't see Karn/Ugin/Eidolon there either since we have few ways to destroy stuff barring Supreme Verdict.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Once loaded, I'll be hearing suggestions and corrections, please.
BTW, do you think cards such as Ivory tower or Ivory crane netsuke are playable as sb tech for Burn for instance?
Cheers.
SST.