Is difficult to find a removal like terminate in GB colors. I understand he is not thinking in victim of night (because doesn't hit kailtas) or go for the throat (because doesn't hit inkmoth nexus).
Also murderous cut although is a really good card, is not for this deck because you want your stuff to be in graveyard to return to battlefield and not exiling them for removing a creature.
Bone Splinters seems like something to consider in a Zombie build.
Sadly, all B removal has drawbacks - even Terminate has a couple. Many of them have drawbacks that are so bad that they are dubious main-deck material.
When I use Dismember, it's because I want to be able to cast it for 1.
I think you make him change his mind about this card (dismember) so I wrote some alternatives, because is true that sometimes Kalitas can be bigger than dismember
When I use Dismember, it's because I want to be able to cast it for 1.
I think you make him change his mind about this card (dismember) so I wrote some alternatives, because is true that sometimes Kalitas can be bigger than dismember
I'm not sure there is a good card for both. Just for Kalitas, I wouldn't recommend Dismember, but for Kalitas AND Inkmoth, it's one to consider.
It is rather heavy on the 3-drops but I have A.Vial to help with that.
I'm not running much of MD interaction but want to test out Dark Salvation, maybe it is not good enough and shoulk be a discard spell or more traditional removal like Dismember.
Any reason why a lot of people aren't playing dark salvation anymore? It has been pretty good in my experience.
I like Dark Salvation but the problem is that it isn't great removal. When you are ahead and have a good board presence then you can cast it for B and kill something, but more often than not you have to spend all of you mana which isn't great for a turn when you should be developing your board instead. I have been happy floating around 2 of them MB.
I think we are trying the same list (but each of us change some cards adjusting them to personal tastes). Anyways I can se all of us have the same problem too that is there are more than 60 cards in our lists :(. In my case is because I don't know what to cut because all cards in my list perform good and I like all of them.
Perhaps I could cut any copter but not sure. Anyways I must say that I changed almost completely the deck I was playing before based on the list of burning_force because it seems really cool to me. After building it I discovered that the list has more than 60 cards so I found I don't know what to cut :(.
I can foresee that they could have the same problem.
Well i'd start with prized amalgam, almost uncastable (just with caverns) and not very impactful (just a 3/3, we aren't dredge). Not saying its bad but choices have to be made!
So this thread has inspired this list, with the copter and the Haakon/inversion combo. Went 2/2 last evening, beating merfolk and jeskai control, losing to bant eldrazi and tezzeret thopter control. The tezz matchup is atrocious, bridge is GG for them game one. Game two i drew 13 extra cards with cryptbreaker and still didn't find any ratchet bomb (both were in my bottom 7). Vs eldrazi i lost game 3 to double eldrazi displacer + drowner of hope combo. Again drew a ton of extra cards with cryptbreaker and didn't find any of my 4x nameless inversion to go with my haakon. Unfortunate .
Still the deck felt powerful and the synergies are interesting. My current list:
Can someone please explain the reason Smuggler's Copter is in these decks?
Is there a combo with it I am not aware of?
Copter does a ton of work in this deck.
First it has flying. Having played many matches with the deck, flyers are a big issue, copter helps here.
Second the crew ability allows us to use low power creatures to attack/block for more. Crewing gravecrawlers is great since it normally can't block.
Third, and most importantly, the loot ability is super good. It allows us to discard our graveyard matters stuff, giving us card advantage from the draws. I've done nice tricks with it such as blocking and discarding vengeful pharaoh before damage to kill another guy. Looting with cards that operate in the grave is like drawing cards, but better since you enable your Haakon, stromgald scourge and such.
Fourth, vehicules are great vs sorcery speed removal or sweepers. I've won some matches post sweeper by activating mutavault, cast gravecrawlers from the grave, crew smuggler's copter and keep attacking.
I also think that copter is really good in this deck. Allow silly plays like the ones Ace commented.
About the amalgams you are probably right but they are also free dudes. Not sure if cutting all of them is the right way to go, but for now I'm going to test your changes.
In your list Ace do you think a Fleshbag Marauder could deserve a slot? It helps you against hexproof dudes and can be reused again and again with relentless dead.
Your list seems really good to me too and the only change I would make would be including a singleton of blasting station only for saving your dudes from anger of the gods and the possible combo with crawler.
Personally I would add some Blue to the deck and replace: "Haakon, V.Pharaoh and S.Copter" with 4x each of Prized Amalgam and Diregraf Captain.
Haakon, stromgald scourge has been ok, i did pull off the combo with nameless inversion twice last thursday. It might be too cute but it is certainly powerful, killing off every opposing creature and making zombies off of diregraf colossus is very scary for the opponent. I'll leave it in the deck for now and do some more testing. Inversion is a card i want to play anyways to go with colossus so the Haakon seem fine. I do play stromgald crusader (a knight) in the sideboard too to fight white decks so there's that...
Vengeful pharaoh has not been clunky at all, in fact he has been great, MVP in a lot of matchups for sure. Free recurring kill spell is super good and is easy to discard for value. The late game hardcast comes up very often too.
I also think that copter is really good in this deck. Allow silly plays like the ones Ace commented.
About the amalgams you are probably right but they are also free dudes. Not sure if cutting all of them is the right way to go, but for now I'm going to test your changes.
In your list Ace do you think a Fleshbag Marauder could deserve a slot? It helps you against hexproof dudes and can be reused again and again with relentless dead.
Your list seems really good to me too and the only change I would make would be including a singleton of blasting station only for saving your dudes from anger of the gods and the possible combo with crawler.
The rest seems solid
Thanks, i'm glad you like it! I'll probably try out blasting station (or any one sac outlet). Kalitas, traitor of ghet saccing gravecrawler has been great. Also saccing crawler with a colossus to make tons of zombies seems very powerful, i'm just not sure what to cut but i'll find some room. Having played more with the deck i'm starting to see the value of this.
EDIT: also station solves the prison/ensnaring bridge problem, which is great!
EDIT2: So considering the feedback i received here's the list i will be trying out:
Ace1, Looks like a solid list and fun to test out, definitely curious to hear back from your play testing to see how it went.
Very curious to know how often you are using Relentless Dead's abilities and how often Dark Salvation is more than a dead draw.
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Modern: Affinity | B/G Zombies | Legacy:Budget Black Zombies |
I like the reach that Gray Merchant gives, and Nykthos can pump out enough mana on even a relatively small board. I am playing Viscera Seer over Blasting Station right now because it is better versus boardwipes like Anger of the Gods. I have the singleton Haakon because of the synergy between Nameless Inversion and Diregraf Colossus is almost too good to pass up. It can make a ton of tokens in one turn. This also got me thinking about Gravecrawler + Bridge From Below + Nykthos devotion mana and having turns that make 6-7 tokens then just swing for the win on the next turn.
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is a good fellow in that he's a Zombie who can get back from the graveyard on his own. He helps get the Gravecrawler fun going again.
The only concern aabout it is that you are not playing Lotleth Troll which always have been one of the best zombies at least for me and in this deck can help you a lot being another win condition while filling the role of giving you an instant way of discarding any other of your zombies for value.
Have you tested them?
On the other side there is another card that I think I have to include in my list so because of that I'm suggesting it to you. This is Westvale Abbey. With all the zombies we can play and generate is easy to have fodder to flip it and is a win condition and a can turn away a game that otherwise would be lost and you are playing already urborg so I don't think there is much problem invcluding it.
So with this things in mind, My list would be something like:
I would love to try out lotleth troll and golgari charm, they seem good indeed. I just own the lands to play them right now, so it'll have to wait a bit, but there are certainly upsides to monocolored mana base.
Speaking of which, i'm a little concerned about you mana , Pcrusader. Only 7 lands can cast to troll, thats too few. I would think you need overgrown tomb + some amount of fetchlands instead of some amount of your 10 swamps.
Westvale abbey seems good. Very powerful card for sure. The only thing i don't like is more colorless mana producing lands. Testing has shown me that the deck is very color hungry, so i feel uncomfortable with less than 20 (counting cavern) black sources. Maybe just the one-of abbey is worth it, would love to see if you win more games because of it than you lose because of C mana. Also path to exile is the best removal in modern right now, not sure going all in on a pathable monster is good. Deserves to be tested for sure!
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Inkmoth's can be hit by Victim of Night. Not sure about both tho.
Another potential is Tragic Slip
While not technically two or less in CC, Murderous Cut might suit you.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Also murderous cut although is a really good card, is not for this deck because you want your stuff to be in graveyard to return to battlefield and not exiling them for removing a creature.
I can think on :
Bone Splinters
Devour in Shadow
Sinister Concoction (best option for this deck I think )
Soul Reap
Ultimate Price (not sure if artifact creatures are monocolored because they are colorless, isn't it?)
Hope that helps
Sinister Concoction is a pretty awful top-deck when one is hell-bent.
Bone Splinters seems like something to consider in a Zombie build.
Sadly, all B removal has drawbacks - even Terminate has a couple. Many of them have drawbacks that are so bad that they are dubious main-deck material.
Dismember isn't technically two or less CC either, but it can hit Inkmoth Nexus and - usually - Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and can be cast for 1.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I think you make him change his mind about this card (dismember) so I wrote some alternatives, because is true that sometimes Kalitas can be bigger than dismember
Carrion FeederMortarpod or Blasting Station then it will instantly give Tragic Slip the edge over everything else. Aside from that Dismember will be the best "catch all" removal spell, followed by a slew of Dark Salvation, Collective Brutality type cards.MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I'm not sure there is a good card for both. Just for Kalitas, I wouldn't recommend Dismember, but for Kalitas AND Inkmoth, it's one to consider.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
4x Gravecrawler
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Relentless Dead
4x Lord of the Undead
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Captain
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Dark Salvation
Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial
Land (20)
4x Polluted Delta
3x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Swamp
4x Mutavault
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Compelling Deterrence
2x Countersquall
4x Dismember
1x Ratchet Bomb
4x Thoughtseize
2x Victim of Night
It is rather heavy on the 3-drops but I have A.Vial to help with that.
I'm not running much of MD interaction but want to test out Dark Salvation, maybe it is not good enough and shoulk be a discard spell or more traditional removal like Dismember.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I just noticed something from the previous page, whats with all the well over 60 cards lists? Doesn't make sense to me, am i missing something?!?
Perhaps I could cut any copter but not sure. Anyways I must say that I changed almost completely the deck I was playing before based on the list of burning_force because it seems really cool to me. After building it I discovered that the list has more than 60 cards so I found I don't know what to cut :(.
I can foresee that they could have the same problem.
So this thread has inspired this list, with the copter and the Haakon/inversion combo. Went 2/2 last evening, beating merfolk and jeskai control, losing to bant eldrazi and tezzeret thopter control. The tezz matchup is atrocious, bridge is GG for them game one. Game two i drew 13 extra cards with cryptbreaker and still didn't find any ratchet bomb (both were in my bottom 7). Vs eldrazi i lost game 3 to double eldrazi displacer + drowner of hope combo. Again drew a ton of extra cards with cryptbreaker and didn't find any of my 4x nameless inversion to go with my haakon. Unfortunate .
Still the deck felt powerful and the synergies are interesting. My current list:
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 collective brutality
creatures: 22
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 diregraf colossus
2 Haakon, stromgald scourge
2 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
2 vengeful pharaoh
4 nameless inversion
artifacts: 4
4 smuggler's copter
lands: 22
16 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 shizo, death's storehouse
2 cavern of souls
2 mutavault
1 wail of the nim
2 crypt incursion
2 duress
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
2 big game hunter
4 stromgald crusader
Is there a combo with it I am not aware of?
I would not cut the Prized Amalgams as they are essentially "free" to cast by reanimating any other zombie.
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge on the other hand seems much worse (you don't have knights anyway and the combo with Nameless Inversion is too cute and not particulary powerful) and Vengeful Pharaoh is rather slow and clunky too.
Personally I would add some Blue to the deck and replace: "Haakon, V.Pharaoh and S.Copter" with 4x each of Prized Amalgam and Diregraf Captain.
Copter does a ton of work in this deck.
First it has flying. Having played many matches with the deck, flyers are a big issue, copter helps here.
Second the crew ability allows us to use low power creatures to attack/block for more. Crewing gravecrawlers is great since it normally can't block.
Third, and most importantly, the loot ability is super good. It allows us to discard our graveyard matters stuff, giving us card advantage from the draws. I've done nice tricks with it such as blocking and discarding vengeful pharaoh before damage to kill another guy. Looting with cards that operate in the grave is like drawing cards, but better since you enable your Haakon, stromgald scourge and such.
Fourth, vehicules are great vs sorcery speed removal or sweepers. I've won some matches post sweeper by activating mutavault, cast gravecrawlers from the grave, crew smuggler's copter and keep attacking.
About the amalgams you are probably right but they are also free dudes. Not sure if cutting all of them is the right way to go, but for now I'm going to test your changes.
In your list Ace do you think a Fleshbag Marauder could deserve a slot? It helps you against hexproof dudes and can be reused again and again with relentless dead.
Your list seems really good to me too and the only change I would make would be including a singleton of blasting station only for saving your dudes from anger of the gods and the possible combo with crawler.
The rest seems solid
Haakon, stromgald scourge has been ok, i did pull off the combo with nameless inversion twice last thursday. It might be too cute but it is certainly powerful, killing off every opposing creature and making zombies off of diregraf colossus is very scary for the opponent. I'll leave it in the deck for now and do some more testing. Inversion is a card i want to play anyways to go with colossus so the Haakon seem fine. I do play stromgald crusader (a knight) in the sideboard too to fight white decks so there's that...
Vengeful pharaoh has not been clunky at all, in fact he has been great, MVP in a lot of matchups for sure. Free recurring kill spell is super good and is easy to discard for value. The late game hardcast comes up very often too.
Not a fan of 3 mana lords that die to every removal. Diregraf captain is sweet with sac outlets + gravecrawler for sure. Our other 3 drops, Haakon, stromgald scourge and diregraf colossus can at least be recasted from the grave or survive lightning bolt...
Thanks, i'm glad you like it! I'll probably try out blasting station (or any one sac outlet). Kalitas, traitor of ghet saccing gravecrawler has been great. Also saccing crawler with a colossus to make tons of zombies seems very powerful, i'm just not sure what to cut but i'll find some room. Having played more with the deck i'm starting to see the value of this.
EDIT: also station solves the prison/ensnaring bridge problem, which is great!
EDIT2: So considering the feedback i received here's the list i will be trying out:
1 dark salvation
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 collective brutality
creatures: 21
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 diregraf colossus
1 fleshbag marauder
1 Haakon, stromgald scourge
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
2 vengeful pharaoh
4 nameless inversion
artifacts: 4
3 smuggler's copter
1 blasting station
lands: 22
16 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 shizo, death's storehouse
2 cavern of souls
2 mutavault
1 wail of the nim
2 crypt incursion
2 duress
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
2 big game hunter
4 stromgald crusader
Cut the legend to 1x to not draw multiple. Lots of one ofs go well with all the card drawing.
Thoughts?
Very curious to know how often you are using Relentless Dead's abilities and how often Dark Salvation is more than a dead draw.
2 Viscera Seer
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Gravecrawler
4 Relentless Dead
4 Diregraf Colossus
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Collective Brutality
2 Nameless Inversion
1 Dark Salvation
Lands
12 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Crypt of Agadeem
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
I like the reach that Gray Merchant gives, and Nykthos can pump out enough mana on even a relatively small board. I am playing Viscera Seer over Blasting Station right now because it is better versus boardwipes like Anger of the Gods. I have the singleton Haakon because of the synergy between Nameless Inversion and Diregraf Colossus is almost too good to pass up. It can make a ton of tokens in one turn. This also got me thinking about Gravecrawler + Bridge From Below + Nykthos devotion mana and having turns that make 6-7 tokens then just swing for the win on the next turn.
My other thinking is that a BG list could be good with Elves of Deep Shadow and Birds of Paradise to accelerate out threats since all of the power is at the 3cmc slot. It gives access to Lotleth Troll, Abrupt Decay, and Golgari Charm among others.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
The G splash appeals mainly due to Abrupt Decay for most graveyard-hate and Maelstrom Pulse for the rest.
She's more Elf than Zombie but Glissa, the Traitor is a hoot with things like Executioner's Capsule or Engineered Explosives. It's just stupid fun!
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
The only concern aabout it is that you are not playing Lotleth Troll which always have been one of the best zombies at least for me and in this deck can help you a lot being another win condition while filling the role of giving you an instant way of discarding any other of your zombies for value.
Have you tested them?
On the other side there is another card that I think I have to include in my list so because of that I'm suggesting it to you. This is Westvale Abbey. With all the zombies we can play and generate is easy to have fodder to flip it and is a win condition and a can turn away a game that otherwise would be lost and you are playing already urborg so I don't think there is much problem invcluding it.
So with this things in mind, My list would be something like:
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
2 collective brutality
creatures: 25
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 relentless dead
4 diregraf colossus
1 fleshbag marauder
1 Haakon, stromgald scourge
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
2 vengeful pharaoh
4 nameless inversion
artifacts: 4
3 smuggler's copter
1 blasting station
lands: 22
10 swamp
4 Blooming Marsh
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 shizo, death's storehouse
3 cavern of souls
2 mutavault
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Golgari Charm
2 crypt incursion
2 duress
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
3 big game hunter
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
I really think this list is a beauty and can do a really good work against almost everything. What do you think?
Speaking of which, i'm a little concerned about you mana , Pcrusader. Only 7 lands can cast to troll, thats too few. I would think you need overgrown tomb + some amount of fetchlands instead of some amount of your 10 swamps.
Westvale abbey seems good. Very powerful card for sure. The only thing i don't like is more colorless mana producing lands. Testing has shown me that the deck is very color hungry, so i feel uncomfortable with less than 20 (counting cavern) black sources. Maybe just the one-of abbey is worth it, would love to see if you win more games because of it than you lose because of C mana. Also path to exile is the best removal in modern right now, not sure going all in on a pathable monster is good. Deserves to be tested for sure!