Yeah I was brewing along the same lines after seeing the 5c humans. Question is which cards you'd really be able to use that you otherwise couldn't.
Looking around I see a few nice cards that you normally wouldn't run all of. Diregraf Captain, Lotleth Troll and Tidehollow Sculler or my first thoughts.
5c Humans would almost certainly be better, but Zombies do have some advantages, like being MUCH better at being able to recover from a sweep (and there will be more anger of the gods inbound into the meta after the recent performance of humans).
Tidehollow Sculler gives us SOME disruption, as for Thalia. In theory you could run something like 12 creature-any-color lands and 4 godless shrines and you actually could play Thalia in the deck. Yes, yes we would break the zombie theme a bit but it also opens up to a world of other possibilities... flickerwisp?
- I am not saying this is the way to go, but I do think there's a lot to brew and be tried here.
Anger of the Gods hurts Zombies more than Humans TBH. Zombies need those "dies" triggers and to go to be in the graveyard. Anger won't allow that.
I think the Unclaimed Territory approach could be interesting. I think that there are too many sweet noncreature cards that want to make their way into zombies that going deep enough to need Ancient Ziggurat is probably a losing proposition. My guess is you probably want at most, like 2 additional tribal lands.
I was a fan of Esper zombies because I think Dispel was so well positioned to press the advantage gained from all the 2 power 1 drops - it sort of played the role to Tidehollow in the same way that Freebooter plays to meddling mage (or vice versa). The difference is that we don't really care about nonanger sweepers, and the countermagic fights a variety of spells off the top of the deck, rather than just one specific spell, or what's in hand. It's possible that spell pierce might be better if you expect an influx of Anger of the Gods though. The problem with esper zombies was that the mana really wasn't great and the white was almost exclusively for Tidehollow Sculler, having access to more than 4 cavern of souls might alleviate that problem somewhat. I don't have the time to think too deep on in it for at least a couple of days, but I'll certainly think on it when I can. I'll pop by here periodically to see if you guys have made any developments, and to report anything that I might have thought up.
There are zero reasons not to use dredge in a zombie build. Zombies interact with the graveyard after all.
Having Cryptbreaker(which might be the best zombie ever printed legal in modern) is an absolute bomb. It's a mix between Imperious Perfect and Heritage Druid. You don't get the Lord effect, and the ability costs 1 extra, but you get Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Ritual... in a dredge deck... at instant speed.
In terms of spells Abrupt Decay is really really good for getting rid of problematic GY hate. Inquisition is probably better. But, Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are absolutely gross together. You don't need to include more than 2 each. You're dredging after all? And this gives you a way to discard any card you might draw(land or creature)... if you do draw... for value. This means that Blood Scrivener could be a bomb! You could start including cards like Ghost Quarter or Cradle of the Accursed.
We were all pretty hyped when Cryptbreaker was printed as well. On paper it looks great, in practice it's too slow and almost every time we drew it we wished it was something else. It also doesn't play well in multiples. I would highly recommend starting your testing with less than 4 to save time. I think having access to 1 is nice, especially if you decide that Liliana the last hope or some other recursion strategy is in your wheelhouse, but I would never run more than 2. It eats your whole turn, requires a ton of mama, requires you to have a wide board state and not using said board state for attacking.
Lotleth troll is great though, lots of synergies to be had there, and being in green gives you access to abrupt decay as you mentioned, which is awesome.
Playing Aether Vial can be good to free up mana for Cryptbreaker activations and its draw ability can help refill the hand with creatures to "vial in" and it can also pitch extra copies of vial.
I've been working on a deck for a while but I need some advice. I was trying to stay with a tribal theme more than dredge but I can't help feeling like dredge would speed the deck up.
It's been a joy to pilot it. I have no problem against Burn or Lantern Control. Death Shadow variants are also very good matchups.
The sheer amount of tokens it produces is gross. You can see the resilience as well, in crawler, geralf and relentless. The Matchup I usually lose to is Valakut.
I'd like your insights about it. You can usually find me in Cockatrice trying to make Zombies viable if you wanna have a go at it.
One of the main reasons to splash white in zombies (besides Wayward Servant and PtE) is Tidehollow Sculler.
I think you should add it to your list by cutting back on removal and maybe 1x land.
Have you tried adding one of the zombie lords ?
They aren't the best but Death Baron is pretty good though it competes with Diregraf Colossus for slots (but can have a more immediate impact).
I don't realy like the SB at all besides Blessed Alliance which is a decent card.
All these "Pillow-Fort" enchantments aren't good for a tribal aggro deck like Zombies.
I have tested all your suggestions before my original post, and here's the veredict:
1 - Tidehollow sculler is good, but not here. Taking away one card will seldom delay their strategy long enough without other discard efects, which I run none. Relentless Dead entered in its place, and performed better.
2 - Zombie Lords are cute. How often do they attack, though? How often are they the first card to be targetted by removal? Death Baron is decent, but testing made it irrelevant. If I can attack with 3/3 deathtouch tokens, I am already winning. And that brings up the third point...
3 - This is not an aggro zombies deck. This deck does not want to race damage going into the red zone with Humans, Goblins or whatever. It is not faster. So, these "Pillow-Fort" enchantments are there to resist such strategies. What Human deck is faster when it has to attack through Ghostly Prison? What red deck is faster if my creatures are "indestructible", and I gain constant life with Wayward Servant? How can they make infinite mana, gain infinite life or have a 10000/10000 Walking Ballista kill you with Suppression Field in play?
4 - Fatal Push does not kill the Eldrazi that matters, Tasigur, Gurmag, Resto Angel, Kiki... Anguished Unmaking was there instead of O-ring, but at times being black was relevant (Crusader), and at others losing 3 life was also relevant (Red matches). There is no need to go instant there for the same effect.
Other than that, I recommend you test it. You'll be surprised with the lifegain and token production (most opponents are).
I have tested all your suggestions before my original post, and here's the veredict:
1 - Tidehollow sculler is good, but not here. Taking away one card will seldom delay their strategy long enough without other discard efects, which I run none. Relentless Dead entered in its place, and performed better.
2 - Zombie Lords are cute. How often do they attack, though? How often are they the first card to be targetted by removal? Death Baron is decent, but testing made it irrelevant. If I can attack with 3/3 deathtouch tokens, I am already winning. And that brings up the third point...
3 - This is not an aggro zombies deck. This deck does not want to race damage going into the red zone with Humans, Goblins or whatever. It is not faster. So, these "Pillow-Fort" enchantments are there to resist such strategies. What Human deck is faster when it has to attack through Ghostly Prison? What red deck is faster if my creatures are "indestructible", and I gain constant life with Wayward Servant? How can they make infinite mana, gain infinite life or have a 10000/10000 Walking Ballista kill you with Suppression Field in play?
4 - Fatal Push does not kill the Eldrazi that matters, Tasigur, Gurmag, Resto Angel, Kiki... Anguished Unmaking was there instead of O-ring, but at times being black was relevant (Crusader), and at others losing 3 life was also relevant (Red matches). There is no need to go instant there for the same effect.
Other than that, I recommend you test it. You'll be surprised with the lifegain and token production (most opponents are).
1. I insist that Tidehollow is probably the best creature in the deck as it does exactly what the deck wants to do by adding a body to the board and disrupting the opponent's gameplan.
Case in point is that "Humans" became succesful after incorporating Kitesail Freebooter (a worse Tidehollow) into their deck.
2. Zombie lords may not be absolutely necessary (as there are no 2-mana ones) but I find Death Baron to be really good to buff all the small creature and tokens and make combat hard for the opponent (blocking a 3/2 deathtouch Gravecrawler gets much harder).
3. Zombies can only be an aggressive tribe, they have nothing else going for them besides some sort of aristocrats-type combo strategy with graveyard recursion and sacrifice effects but it is probably too slow.
If you want to deal with other creatures then removal (or sweepers) is the way to go and not enchantments which don't help you win the game as you'll still need to attack through opposing cratures.
#Mark of Asylum isn't worth playing as getting a creature bolted isn't too bad and most removal is not damage based anyway.
#Suppression Field is bad in the deck because it hurts this deck as well since it does play Fetches and Cryptbreaker, I'd just go with Stony Silence and maybe a copy of Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker/Sorcerous Spyglass if you want to stop non-artifact abilities.
4. You have PtE (and Anguished Unmaking or Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring) for what Fatal Push can't kill.
For reference I play a more aggro-oriented version of the deck:
I've recently dropped Geralf's Messenger (which was troublesome to cast sometimes) for Diregraf Colossus as it is so good at clogging the board (and sometimes being big) even despite not working with Vial'ed creatures.
Binding Mummy (with Vial it can tap down attackers at instant speed) is another card I'm probably going to cut for either: Smuggler's Copter, more removal or maybe some maindeck discard.
Julien Berteaux is 23rd in the pro tour right now and I'm pretty sure he's on his B/W zombies list. Such a shame we never get to watch him on camera. Would be awesome to watch the gameplay and help us improve our decklists. Anyway, go Julien!
I'm pretty sure this deck can play Prized Amalgam, maybe over Dread Wanderer.
It leaves the deck with less 1-drops to play early but with more free-recursive threats and we all know how well Amalgam and Bloodghast work together and Gravecrawler also triggers Amalgam.
Adding a Watery Grave to be able to hardcast it won't be too hard either imho.
What do you think about Dread Wanderer in the deck ?
It seems like the weakest link in the deck to me.
Any changes you'd make to the list ?
I'd like to test Cryptbreaker and Relentless Dead in the deck (especially since I don't have the pricier Liliana + Brutality yet).
If you're on the Fulminator plan you could try Lilly last hope, I've absolutely loved last hope in zombies, and recurring fulms sounds like a good way plan for redundancy there.
I've recently dropped Geralf's Messenger (which was troublesome to cast sometimes) for Diregraf Colossus as it is so good at clogging the board (and sometimes being big) even despite not working with Vial'ed creatures.
Binding Mummy (with Vial it can tap down attackers at instant speed) is another card I'm probably going to cut for either: Smuggler's Copter, more removal or maybe some maindeck discard.
I've found Geralf's Messenger and Plague Belcher to be some of the best cards in the deck. Considering running 1-2 Graf Harvest since the menace lord is trash. If we could get a reprint of carrion feeder or the swampwalk lord I think the tribe could be really sick. The menace lord could've been good enough if it wasn't an activated ability (and a summoning sick one at that)
Wayward servant is absolutely nuts though. So far most games are won by gumming up the board and making combat suck for the opponent via deathtouch and recurring life drain
Edit: 4/28
Went 4-0 last night with this list
Round 1 Grixis Control 2-0
This guy was pretty inexperienced and had no idea what he was playing against (understandable). I win the roll and play Gravecrawler turn 1. He inquisitions me seeing Colossus, Gerry, Path, and Servant. Makes probably worst choice and takes Colossus. I don't remember all the topdecks from there but I just beat him down with creatures he couldn't answer.
Game 2 goes kinda the same. I force him to Anger double Relentless Dead, backed up by Gerry, Belcher, and Death Baron. He misplays and doesn't crack his spellbomb on the undying trigger for Gerry after bolting it and that kinda sealed the game.
Round 2 Bant Eldrazi
This is the dream matchup. Game 1 goes just like we wrote it up. Turn one Vial, T2 Sculler and Vial in Cryptbreaker. Sculler takes a path. On his third drawstep I activate Vial on 2, he responds by casting the Dismember he just drew on Sculler to get his Path and cast it targeting my Wayward Servant, using up almost all his mana. I opt not to put my second Sculler into play off the Vial since I have Colossus in hand. Next turn I move Vial up to three and use it to drop Colossus, then cast Sculler and a Relentless Dead and get 2 tokens. Sculler takes his Drowner and his single Eldrazi Displacer has a hard time dealing with my board. He's able to blink away all my free tokens but it doesn't really matter. Once I use cryptbreaker to draw into Plague Belcher the game is over. I Vial in Plague Belcher on his draw step to kill my own Relentless Dead. I pay 3 to return Relentless to hand and return my Dead Sculler to the battlefield. This Sculler also takes a Drowner. I use my other Vial with 2 counters on it to put my Relentless Dead back into play and I still have B open to return him to hand again if necessary. From here it's just kind of a nightmare for him. Plague belcher die triggers grind his life total down as he's forced to blink it when I attack or block, allowing me to kill my Relentless Dead and loop it. He eventually finds a TKS but it's too late when I have Gerry and another Belcherto drain him down to 1
Game 2 he has an unfortunate mull to 5 and I just run him over. Hand full of Crawler, 2x Sculler and 2x Binding Mummy would've been enough to tempo him out of even a good hand, but all he had was E.E he played for 2 and was forced to crack on my first Sculler, only to have the second one come down post combat.
Round 3 Sun and Moon
I lose the roll and he has turn 1 Chalice X=1. My hand of Gravecrawler, Vial, etc looks pretty stupid.
Game 2 he has turn 0 Leyline and luckily my hand of Gravecrawler, Servant, and multiple Plague Belchers just doesn't care.
Game 3 hes on the play and my 7 shows Gravecrawler and triple Sculler. If he doesn't have Leyline this hand is godly, but he mulls to 6 so I do as well. Gravecrawler, multiple Belchers and Lili looks good so I keep it. Lili was the MVP, keeping his resources down so I could just punch him to death even through his RiP. Got her up to 7 loyalty and Ulted to get rid of the RiP, Blasting Station machine gun for the win
Round 4 against my buddy playing Cheeri0s. We both know each other's lists inside and out and I know my only chance to win is to get lucky. Game one I'm on the play and keep a Sculler hand. He doesn't see a second guy and loses. Game 2 he has a Leyline for my turn one thoughtseize, but I have a Push for his (only) guy and he doesnt draw one before 2/2's and Servant triggers beat him down. I guess my luck was running hot last night.
All in all, the deck felt pretty good even though I was definitely very fortunate with some of my matchups and just plain lucky that my opponent didn't see a second creature in either game round 4. List is a lot of fun and I look forward to playing it more
Im wondering what you guys think of my deck i created bare in mind this is my first deck i have ever built so it probably sucks but i would like to hear your opinions for this and what i could change
Well at first glance your curve is really high. I would definitely max out on things like Diregraf Ghoul and Gravecrawler. Dread Wanderer might not be terrible. More 2 drops would be really good too, maybe miasmic mummy? I would cut down on 3 drops and I would completely cut anything more than 3 mana, especially with only 21 lands and some of those ETB tapped. Blood Scrivener is decent. Stromgald Crusader seems like a pretty neat 2 mana threat for your build too.
Well at first glance your curve is really high. I would definitely max out on things like Diregraf Ghoul and Gravecrawler. Dread Wanderer might not be terrible. More 2 drops would be really good too, maybe miasmic mummy? I would cut down on 3 drops and I would completely cut anything more than 3 mana, especially with only 21 lands and some of those ETB tapped. Blood Scrivener is decent. Stromgald Crusader seems like a pretty neat 2 mana threat for your build too.
Too many. Five out of 21. With 21 lands, I'd want close to 0 to enter tapped.
The draw (against UWR)definitely should've been a win but my opponent is notorious for playing incredibly slow and we ran out of time.
Wins were over UWR and GW Value Town.
UWR feels like a pretty good matchup. Between Cavern and Vial, counters are pretty useless. Path is the biggest threat, or if they manage to 1 for one tempo remove your creatures without running themselves out of resources (unlikely). Gravecrawler, Relentless Dead, and Sculler are the best cards here. Sculler lets you control the sequencing for their removal which can be really important. Plague Belcher is fantastic as well. Can blank a path, permanently exile a card if you Vial it in with Scullers ability on the stack, can come in bolt-proof, and can make their board wipes really hurt. Colossus is great too, I wish I had room for more than 1.
Really nice part of this matchup is post board when they think RiP will save them and you just beat face with 2/x's and mutavaults. Or fragmentize/discard the RiP and run them over
GW Valuetown just feels like a kinda free matchup. They struggle to interact with us in a meaningful way and can't really beat us on the board. Binding Mummy is nuts.
Main board is still feeling really good. I have a few janky numbers (1-ofs and playsets-1) that started as tests but are actually proving to be pretty solid where they are. I'm really not satisfied with the SB but I'm not sure what to change yet because obviously it's been working.
Kalitas and Kambal are definitely the weakest links though.
Dude, this list sounds and looks awesome. Inspired me to proxy it up and test it out! I've always wanted to rock some type of Zombies, and I think with the Vial saving you on mana, it keeps your mana open for other value like Gravecrawler and Relentless.
My interest was drawn here when I was playing Liliana, Heretical Healer in another deck. Have you tried her out here? Vialling her in with opponent removal on the stack seems like a great play, to then recur someone else.
Also, with creatures so often coming back from your graveyard, think it's worth running Prized Amalgam? Even if it was stuck in your hand, you can make blue mana with Caverns and cast it eventually, if you don't get a chance to discard it.
I love the Binding Mummy, seems like just the kind of evasion you need as Zombies.
I've never played a Vial deck before but have always loved the card, so many cool interactions, so thanks for those tips and situations! Got any more? Do you usually keep vial on 2? Or tick it up to 3 whenever you can? Perhaps dependent on your cards in hand?
Heretical Healer could be worth testing. I don't think she's really where you want to be, but she could be a good tool for grindy games. Deaths Majesty has been tempting for the SB too but 5 mana is a lot and she's probably not necessary.
I personally don't think Amalgam is worth it. Not a lot of good ways to abuse him and adding another color for a 3 mana 3/3 with no abilities doesn't seem great. You would for sure have to cut Mutavault if you went that route, and you'd need to be prepared to take more damage from your mana base. Yeah Binding Mummy is reeeeeally good against other creature decks. Can use it defensively to tap down attackers with Vial/Cryptbreaker, but he really gets nuts when paired with Diregraf Colossus to tap down blockers.
Yeah my Vial counters usually depends on my hand, board state, and what I know or suspect about my opponent's hand. If I have a Plague Belcher in hand I'll almost always Vial up to 3, unless I have a line like: hard cast Belcher to kill Relentless Dead, pay B to return to hand, Vial Relentless back in. But even then sometimes it's better to Vial up to 3. Belcher is just so good off of Vial. The absolute dream is to have 2 vials so you don't have to pick 2 or 3, but that's rare obviously.
Well some of the obvious ones are like Belcher to kill Gravecrawler post combat and re-cast, especially with Wayward Servant or Diregraf Colossus or something out. There's just sooo much synergy in this deck. I find new lines every time I bring it out.
It's slow, but once you get the ball rolling you have so much inevitability. A lot of wins come from getting in a few early attacks with Gravecrawler and then grinding out board stalls. Stalls are very good for us, because our ETB/'dies' triggers will get the job done without having to open ourselves up.
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Anger of the Gods hurts Zombies more than Humans TBH. Zombies need those "dies" triggers and to go to be in the graveyard. Anger won't allow that.
I was a fan of Esper zombies because I think Dispel was so well positioned to press the advantage gained from all the 2 power 1 drops - it sort of played the role to Tidehollow in the same way that Freebooter plays to meddling mage (or vice versa). The difference is that we don't really care about nonanger sweepers, and the countermagic fights a variety of spells off the top of the deck, rather than just one specific spell, or what's in hand. It's possible that spell pierce might be better if you expect an influx of Anger of the Gods though. The problem with esper zombies was that the mana really wasn't great and the white was almost exclusively for Tidehollow Sculler, having access to more than 4 cavern of souls might alleviate that problem somewhat. I don't have the time to think too deep on in it for at least a couple of days, but I'll certainly think on it when I can. I'll pop by here periodically to see if you guys have made any developments, and to report anything that I might have thought up.
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
Discard outlets and discard targets.
You could make a pretty strong case for Bloodghast, Vengevine, Street Wraith, Grave Scrabbler, Relentless Dead, and Golgari Thug.
There are zero reasons not to use dredge in a zombie build. Zombies interact with the graveyard after all.
Having Cryptbreaker(which might be the best zombie ever printed legal in modern) is an absolute bomb. It's a mix between Imperious Perfect and Heritage Druid. You don't get the Lord effect, and the ability costs 1 extra, but you get Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Ritual... in a dredge deck... at instant speed.
In terms of spells Abrupt Decay is really really good for getting rid of problematic GY hate. Inquisition is probably better. But, Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime are absolutely gross together. You don't need to include more than 2 each. You're dredging after all? And this gives you a way to discard any card you might draw(land or creature)... if you do draw... for value. This means that Blood Scrivener could be a bomb! You could start including cards like Ghost Quarter or Cradle of the Accursed.
This is where I'm at, and will test shortly:
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Blood Scrivener
2 Grave Scrabbler
2 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
19-20 lands seems about right.
PS: Bring back the Golgari Troll.
Lotleth troll is great though, lots of synergies to be had there, and being in green gives you access to abrupt decay as you mentioned, which is awesome.
I'm not a fan of Stinkweed Imp and Vengeful Pharaoh in Zombies' as they are pretty slow and fit a different play style more in line of "Dredge" deck than a tribal zombies deck.
Prized Amalgam on the other hand fits right in and can still be triggered with: Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger and Relentless Dead's reanimation ability.
3 Cryptbreaker
4 Gravecrawler
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Diregraf Colossus
2 Lord of the Accursed
3 Dread Wanderer
3 Prized Amalgam
2 Gisa and Geralf
2 Ghoultree
2 Endless Ranks of the Dead
Land
4 Forest
2 Island
5 Swamp
2 Crypt of Agadeem
3 Sunken Hollow
2 Choked Estuary
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Thought Scour
2 Murderous Cut
Sorcery
3 Commune with the Gods
3 Dark Salvation
No, Zombies are not dead.
...
Well, technically they are, but you get my point.
I've been testing the following list for a while now. Let me share with you.
6 swamp
1 plains
1 godless shrine
4 cavern of souls
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
4 isolated chapel
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
CREATURES: 24
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
4 diregraf colossus
4 geralf's messenger
4 oblivion ring
3 path to exile
3 dismember
3 dark salvation
3 mark of asylum
3 ghostly prison
3 blessed alliance
3 nihil spellbomb
3 suppression field
It's been a joy to pilot it. I have no problem against Burn or Lantern Control. Death Shadow variants are also very good matchups.
The sheer amount of tokens it produces is gross. You can see the resilience as well, in crawler, geralf and relentless. The Matchup I usually lose to is Valakut.
I'd like your insights about it. You can usually find me in Cockatrice trying to make Zombies viable if you wanna have a go at it.
I think you should add it to your list by cutting back on removal and maybe 1x land.
Have you tried adding one of the zombie lords ?
They aren't the best but Death Baron is pretty good though it competes with Diregraf Colossus for slots (but can have a more immediate impact).
I'd go with Fatal Push and Anguished Unmaking over Dismember and Oblivion Ring.
Those 3-mana catch-all removal spells should probably be in the SB though.
I don't realy like the SB at all besides Blessed Alliance which is a decent card.
All these "Pillow-Fort" enchantments aren't good for a tribal aggro deck like Zombies.
1 - Tidehollow sculler is good, but not here. Taking away one card will seldom delay their strategy long enough without other discard efects, which I run none. Relentless Dead entered in its place, and performed better.
2 - Zombie Lords are cute. How often do they attack, though? How often are they the first card to be targetted by removal? Death Baron is decent, but testing made it irrelevant. If I can attack with 3/3 deathtouch tokens, I am already winning. And that brings up the third point...
3 - This is not an aggro zombies deck. This deck does not want to race damage going into the red zone with Humans, Goblins or whatever. It is not faster. So, these "Pillow-Fort" enchantments are there to resist such strategies. What Human deck is faster when it has to attack through Ghostly Prison? What red deck is faster if my creatures are "indestructible", and I gain constant life with Wayward Servant? How can they make infinite mana, gain infinite life or have a 10000/10000 Walking Ballista kill you with Suppression Field in play?
4 - Fatal Push does not kill the Eldrazi that matters, Tasigur, Gurmag, Resto Angel, Kiki... Anguished Unmaking was there instead of O-ring, but at times being black was relevant (Crusader), and at others losing 3 life was also relevant (Red matches). There is no need to go instant there for the same effect.
Other than that, I recommend you test it. You'll be surprised with the lifegain and token production (most opponents are).
1. I insist that Tidehollow is probably the best creature in the deck as it does exactly what the deck wants to do by adding a body to the board and disrupting the opponent's gameplan.
Case in point is that "Humans" became succesful after incorporating Kitesail Freebooter (a worse Tidehollow) into their deck.
2. Zombie lords may not be absolutely necessary (as there are no 2-mana ones) but I find Death Baron to be really good to buff all the small creature and tokens and make combat hard for the opponent (blocking a 3/2 deathtouch Gravecrawler gets much harder).
3. Zombies can only be an aggressive tribe, they have nothing else going for them besides some sort of aristocrats-type combo strategy with graveyard recursion and sacrifice effects but it is probably too slow.
If you want to deal with other creatures then removal (or sweepers) is the way to go and not enchantments which don't help you win the game as you'll still need to attack through opposing cratures.
#Mark of Asylum isn't worth playing as getting a creature bolted isn't too bad and most removal is not damage based anyway.
#Suppression Field is bad in the deck because it hurts this deck as well since it does play Fetches and Cryptbreaker, I'd just go with Stony Silence and maybe a copy of Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker/Sorcerous Spyglass if you want to stop non-artifact abilities.
4. You have PtE (and Anguished Unmaking or Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring) for what Fatal Push can't kill.
For reference I play a more aggro-oriented version of the deck:
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Gravecrawler
4x Relentless Dead
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wayward Servant
2x Binding Mummy
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Colossus
Instant (6)
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
4x Aether Vial
Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
2x Godless Shrine
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Mutavault
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4x Thoughtseize
3x Collective Brutality
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Path to Exile
1x Fatal Push
1x Ratchet Bomb
Binding Mummy (with Vial it can tap down attackers at instant speed) is another card I'm probably going to cut for either: Smuggler's Copter, more removal or maybe some maindeck discard.
It is pretty much the same as his previous list, it is as much a: Liliana, Copter, Souls deck as it is a zombies deck though.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/923112
I'm pretty sure this deck can play Prized Amalgam, maybe over Dread Wanderer.
It leaves the deck with less 1-drops to play early but with more free-recursive threats and we all know how well Amalgam and Bloodghast work together and Gravecrawler also triggers Amalgam.
Adding a Watery Grave to be able to hardcast it won't be too hard either imho.
It seems like the weakest link in the deck to me.
Any changes you'd make to the list ?
I'd like to test Cryptbreaker and Relentless Dead in the deck (especially since I don't have the pricier Liliana + Brutality yet).
What can help in the big mana matchups ?
A bunch of Fulminator Mage/Rain of Tears and maybe a Pithing Needle ?
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-04-18-RdF-zombies/
I've found Geralf's Messenger and Plague Belcher to be some of the best cards in the deck. Considering running 1-2 Graf Harvest since the menace lord is trash. If we could get a reprint of carrion feeder or the swampwalk lord I think the tribe could be really sick. The menace lord could've been good enough if it wasn't an activated ability (and a summoning sick one at that)
Wayward servant is absolutely nuts though. So far most games are won by gumming up the board and making combat suck for the opponent via deathtouch and recurring life drain
Edit: 4/28
Went 4-0 last night with this list
Round 1 Grixis Control 2-0
This guy was pretty inexperienced and had no idea what he was playing against (understandable). I win the roll and play Gravecrawler turn 1. He inquisitions me seeing Colossus, Gerry, Path, and Servant. Makes probably worst choice and takes Colossus. I don't remember all the topdecks from there but I just beat him down with creatures he couldn't answer.
Game 2 goes kinda the same. I force him to Anger double Relentless Dead, backed up by Gerry, Belcher, and Death Baron. He misplays and doesn't crack his spellbomb on the undying trigger for Gerry after bolting it and that kinda sealed the game.
Round 2 Bant Eldrazi
This is the dream matchup. Game 1 goes just like we wrote it up. Turn one Vial, T2 Sculler and Vial in Cryptbreaker. Sculler takes a path. On his third drawstep I activate Vial on 2, he responds by casting the Dismember he just drew on Sculler to get his Path and cast it targeting my Wayward Servant, using up almost all his mana. I opt not to put my second Sculler into play off the Vial since I have Colossus in hand. Next turn I move Vial up to three and use it to drop Colossus, then cast Sculler and a Relentless Dead and get 2 tokens. Sculler takes his Drowner and his single Eldrazi Displacer has a hard time dealing with my board. He's able to blink away all my free tokens but it doesn't really matter. Once I use cryptbreaker to draw into Plague Belcher the game is over. I Vial in Plague Belcher on his draw step to kill my own Relentless Dead. I pay 3 to return Relentless to hand and return my Dead Sculler to the battlefield. This Sculler also takes a Drowner. I use my other Vial with 2 counters on it to put my Relentless Dead back into play and I still have B open to return him to hand again if necessary. From here it's just kind of a nightmare for him. Plague belcher die triggers grind his life total down as he's forced to blink it when I attack or block, allowing me to kill my Relentless Dead and loop it. He eventually finds a TKS but it's too late when I have Gerry and another Belcherto drain him down to 1
Game 2 he has an unfortunate mull to 5 and I just run him over. Hand full of Crawler, 2x Sculler and 2x Binding Mummy would've been enough to tempo him out of even a good hand, but all he had was E.E he played for 2 and was forced to crack on my first Sculler, only to have the second one come down post combat.
Round 3 Sun and Moon
I lose the roll and he has turn 1 Chalice X=1. My hand of Gravecrawler, Vial, etc looks pretty stupid.
Game 2 he has turn 0 Leyline and luckily my hand of Gravecrawler, Servant, and multiple Plague Belchers just doesn't care.
Game 3 hes on the play and my 7 shows Gravecrawler and triple Sculler. If he doesn't have Leyline this hand is godly, but he mulls to 6 so I do as well. Gravecrawler, multiple Belchers and Lili looks good so I keep it. Lili was the MVP, keeping his resources down so I could just punch him to death even through his RiP. Got her up to 7 loyalty and Ulted to get rid of the RiP, Blasting Station machine gun for the win
Round 4 against my buddy playing Cheeri0s. We both know each other's lists inside and out and I know my only chance to win is to get lucky. Game one I'm on the play and keep a Sculler hand. He doesn't see a second guy and loses. Game 2 he has a Leyline for my turn one thoughtseize, but I have a Push for his (only) guy and he doesnt draw one before 2/2's and Servant triggers beat him down. I guess my luck was running hot last night.
All in all, the deck felt pretty good even though I was definitely very fortunate with some of my matchups and just plain lucky that my opponent didn't see a second creature in either game round 4. List is a lot of fun and I look forward to playing it more
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/28-04-18-zombie-tokens/?cb=1524971907
Too many. Five out of 21. With 21 lands, I'd want close to 0 to enter tapped.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
4x Diregraf Colossus
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gravecrawler
4x Lord of the Undead
4x Relentless Dead
3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Dismember
2x Doom Blade
2x Grasp of Darkness21x Swamp
Merged with the Modern Zombies thread - Torpf
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-04-18-RdF-zombies/
Small turn out so only 3 rounds, went 2-0-1
The draw (against UWR)definitely should've been a win but my opponent is notorious for playing incredibly slow and we ran out of time.
Wins were over UWR and GW Value Town.
UWR feels like a pretty good matchup. Between Cavern and Vial, counters are pretty useless. Path is the biggest threat, or if they manage to 1 for one tempo remove your creatures without running themselves out of resources (unlikely). Gravecrawler, Relentless Dead, and Sculler are the best cards here. Sculler lets you control the sequencing for their removal which can be really important. Plague Belcher is fantastic as well. Can blank a path, permanently exile a card if you Vial it in with Scullers ability on the stack, can come in bolt-proof, and can make their board wipes really hurt. Colossus is great too, I wish I had room for more than 1.
Really nice part of this matchup is post board when they think RiP will save them and you just beat face with 2/x's and mutavaults. Or fragmentize/discard the RiP and run them over
GW Valuetown just feels like a kinda free matchup. They struggle to interact with us in a meaningful way and can't really beat us on the board. Binding Mummy is nuts.
Main board is still feeling really good. I have a few janky numbers (1-ofs and playsets-1) that started as tests but are actually proving to be pretty solid where they are. I'm really not satisfied with the SB but I'm not sure what to change yet because obviously it's been working.
Kalitas and Kambal are definitely the weakest links though.
My interest was drawn here when I was playing Liliana, Heretical Healer in another deck. Have you tried her out here? Vialling her in with opponent removal on the stack seems like a great play, to then recur someone else.
Also, with creatures so often coming back from your graveyard, think it's worth running Prized Amalgam? Even if it was stuck in your hand, you can make blue mana with Caverns and cast it eventually, if you don't get a chance to discard it.
I love the Binding Mummy, seems like just the kind of evasion you need as Zombies.
I've never played a Vial deck before but have always loved the card, so many cool interactions, so thanks for those tips and situations! Got any more? Do you usually keep vial on 2? Or tick it up to 3 whenever you can? Perhaps dependent on your cards in hand?
Also, have you tried Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx? Might be a bit slow?
Heretical Healer could be worth testing. I don't think she's really where you want to be, but she could be a good tool for grindy games. Deaths Majesty has been tempting for the SB too but 5 mana is a lot and she's probably not necessary.
I personally don't think Amalgam is worth it. Not a lot of good ways to abuse him and adding another color for a 3 mana 3/3 with no abilities doesn't seem great. You would for sure have to cut Mutavault if you went that route, and you'd need to be prepared to take more damage from your mana base. Yeah Binding Mummy is reeeeeally good against other creature decks. Can use it defensively to tap down attackers with Vial/Cryptbreaker, but he really gets nuts when paired with Diregraf Colossus to tap down blockers.
Yeah my Vial counters usually depends on my hand, board state, and what I know or suspect about my opponent's hand. If I have a Plague Belcher in hand I'll almost always Vial up to 3, unless I have a line like: hard cast Belcher to kill Relentless Dead, pay B to return to hand, Vial Relentless back in. But even then sometimes it's better to Vial up to 3. Belcher is just so good off of Vial. The absolute dream is to have 2 vials so you don't have to pick 2 or 3, but that's rare obviously.
Well some of the obvious ones are like Belcher to kill Gravecrawler post combat and re-cast, especially with Wayward Servant or Diregraf Colossus or something out. There's just sooo much synergy in this deck. I find new lines every time I bring it out.
It's slow, but once you get the ball rolling you have so much inevitability. A lot of wins come from getting in a few early attacks with Gravecrawler and then grinding out board stalls. Stalls are very good for us, because our ETB/'dies' triggers will get the job done without having to open ourselves up.