Tuesday 0-2-drop
R1 loss 0-2 against valakut. Both games i tried to race since i had zero hand disruption, and failed because my opponent was playing a weird version with prismatic omen, which he drew both games. This makes the deck a turn faster and negates the advantage of having more than 18 life, since he deals huge chunks of damage with 4x valakuts. Overall felt like a bad matchup, especially because of anger of the gods.
R2 loss 0-2 vs mardu tokens. G1 opponent curved grim lavamancer into young pyromancer. I drew zero hand disruption and zero removal, AND got stuck on lands. G2 my opponent thoughtseize away my ranger of eos. He drew 3 lands and all spells the whole game, while i topdecked only lands for like 5 turns. I had blasting station and a gravecrawler in the graveyard and didn’t draw a zombie until my opponent just topdecked path to exile. Would have cleared the board of his soul tokens otherwise.
For the wednesday list i tried going all in for the go wide plan :
Went 1-2
R1 win 2-1 vs sultai infect. Infect isn’t what it used to be. Hand disruption and removal go there G1 and G3, while G2 i had nothing to stop him. Wayward servant was able to deal the last few point of life loss in G3, otherwise the opponent would have had the chance to untap and maybe win.
R2 loss 0-2 vs bant aura. Basically bogles with more expensive threats such as geist of saint traft and sram, senior edificer. My removal paired poorly with his stuff. Could have raced him but was flooded G1 and mana short G2.
R3 0-2 vs tron. G1 when i cast tidehollow sculler turn 2 and saw double o-stone, well, awkward… Later Karn wasn’t so bad except it popped sanctum of ugin for ulamog, the ceaseless hunger. Can’t beat that. G2 started with ghost quarter and concealed courtyard on a 6 card hand with lots of interaction. Never drew a second colored source, and lost.
Had trouble with lands and mulligans both days, but i’ve read the math and 22 lands should be alright… felt like i got quite unlucky.
Still in testing phase, so losing is part of learning! Things i learned :
Viscera seer feels real bad. Sac outlets are key and this one is fragile and the effect is underwhelming. Blasting station is the best one because of how it can pull me out of otherwise unwinnable situations. To win in modern you have to do powerful things, machine gun with station is quite strong, and i want to draw it every game. Cartel aristocrat may also be acceptable simply because its hard to kill and a good attacker/blocker, will have to give her a try eventually.
Geralf’s messenger >>> diregraf colossus. Colossus does nothing before turn 4 and dies at everything. Always wished it was messeger.
Plague belcher is powerful when things go right and kind of bad when to opponent plays a barrage of removal spells and you don’t have anything you want to sac. Kind of unfortunate that he is easy to kill for midrange decks, but he was very good in other matchups, so though call.
Always felt like i wanted removal or hand disruption. It think 4x sculler is right, and i might try some number of path to exile, which would have been better than push in some situations.
I'm not quite there yet! Will post more testing next week.
I believe removal is very meta-dependant. I too often find myself wanting for something broad enough to catch primeval titan and reality Smasher. But in the MB, push and dark salvation take care of all other matchups
That list needs at least a couple of blasting station and one more Plague Belcher. Also I would play 20 lands at least. My list would be something like:
This is the list I'm going to build and think it's very good. I only would like to play some diregraf colossus in there because I love this card but seems there is no room for them right now.
1. the list has 19 lands because our curve is very low, we are like a burn deck in terms of curve. burn decks play 19 or 20 lands, depending on the person.
2. Collective Brutality seems better than blasting station for not only costing 1 less, but also how good it is against our tough matchups which are ; Coco decks, burn, storm, Ad Nauseum. Creature matchups like merfolk and elves, Death Shadow, affinity, etc. are really not bad as we pack lots of creature removal (path, push, dark salvation). Against tron, neither blasting station nor Collective Brutality are good (oh well).
3. Wayward Servant is a great 2 drop even as a late game topdeck, because we often have a gravecrawler or dreaded wanderer in the yard. That's the beauty of having 8 recursive threats as opposed to having only gravecrawler before Amonkhet was released.
4. Check out the 3 Contaminated Ground in the SB. These are essentially our version of "Spreading Seas". We need help against Tron, and this sb has 6 cards you could bring in: 3 Contaminated Grounds, 1 Anguished Unmaking, 2 Stony Silence, Swap out the 3 Fatal Push, 2 Collective Brutality, and 1 Dark Salvation.
What's people's thoughts on Trespasser's Curse against aggro decks? I think it's too slow against affinity, but seems amazing against Elves, Goblins, CoCo and anything with tokens.
1. the list has 19 lands because our curve is very low, we are like a burn deck in terms of curve. burn decks play 19 or 20 lands, depending on the person.
2. Collective Brutality seems better than blasting station for not only costing 1 less, but also how good it is against our tough matchups which are ; Coco decks, burn, storm, Ad Nauseum. Creature matchups like merfolk and elves, Death Shadow, affinity, etc. are really not bad as we pack lots of creature removal (path, push, dark salvation). Against tron, neither blasting station nor Collective Brutality are good (oh well).
3. Wayward Servant is a great 2 drop even as a late game topdeck, because we often have a gravecrawler or dreaded wanderer in the yard. That's the beauty of having 8 recursive threats as opposed to having only gravecrawler before Amonkhet was released.
4. Check out the 3 Contaminated Ground in the SB. These are essentially our version of "Spreading Seas". We need help against Tron, and this sb has 6 cards you could bring in: 3 Contaminated Grounds, 1 Anguished Unmaking, 2 Stony Silence, Swap out the 3 Fatal Push, 2 Collective Brutality, and 1 Dark Salvation.
In a format with blood moon, why do you not have a single Plains in the deck for your fetchlands?
I see your point about Blood Moon but running more than 2x Shocks is unnecessarily painful, and you want more Fetches to enable Fatal Push without relying on your opponent to kill one of your creatures for you.
the list has 19 lands because our curve is very low, we are like a burn deck in terms of curve. burn decks play 19 or 20 lands, depending on the person.
Burn decks cap their mainboard curve at 2 CMC. We want to reliably cast Messengers or Belchers on T3. And the sooner you hit 3-4 lands the earlier you have enough mana to simultaneously build your board and interact. At 19 lands you have a 59% chance to hit your 3rd land drop T3. Going to 21 lands raises that to a slightly more comfortable 68%. You can always pitch the extras to Collective Brutality or Cryptbreaker, or use those lands to hit CMC 5 Salvations or rebuy your threats from the grave. Finally running 21 lands gives you more keepable 2 land hands while mulling. Anecdotally you may have played a handful of matches without getting mana screwed but I think the statistics support 21 lands.
Re: Land Count - Have to agree with everyone on the land count, any less than 21 is far too few. I actually think 22 is the correct number unless you are running a set of 1 cmc cantrips (which I believe is strictly in blue territory? I could be wrong though).
@Ace - Sorry to hear about the pair of underwhelming performances after your first 3-0! I still believe Tidehollow is the main reason to be in white, so I agree that you should bump the count up. I think it is especially important for you to be running as much hand disruption as possible seeing as how you are a more mid-range version of zombies... as you pointed out in your match reports, each time you tried to race you came up short. I think that means you need to be more disruptive or faster (more Savannah Lion Zombies!) or both.
I kinda understand the role Vial is playing here though. There are decks against which our only choice is to try and outrace, because we simply don't have the kind of disruption needed to stop them significantly. I'm talking about Valakut, Tron and similar decks that often lose to aggro but can readily beat midrange strategies like ours. Vial allows us to empty our hands really quickly to go for kills that merely curving out would never allow us.
However, aside from those matchups, it feels like a weak card, specially against matchups where we're supposed to be the ones responding to their threats, like Burn.
I've yet to play this deck, but Vial seems like a natural starting point. Sure, we aren't getting maximum value from it like Death and Taxes does, but it helps swarm early, while freeing up early mana.
Vial let's you cast Push and discard spells, or rebuy Crawler, or use Cryptbreaker and Relentless, while still deploying threats. Also useful for getting Cryptbreaker's card draw online quickly.
Not to mention Vial Sculler during their draw step is Tier Zero salt mine.
- - -
I'll try to get some games this week with a build or two and report back next weekend.
For those who have used Vial, how has it worked out?
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Modern: BW Zombies / BGR Assault Loam / BUR Control
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
What turn would I waste deploying vial though? And then, what number do I want it on? I would say 3, but by the time it gets there my hand and mana rserves say I don't need it there.
I'll let you in on a big secret: you Vial on turn 1. Modern doesn't usually kill on turns 1 or 2, so you don't have to Thoughtseize. Leave it on whatever your deck's curve is. For a Modern Zombie deck, that will often be 2, but you adjust to the circumstances and the hand you draw.
Vial has proven itself for many years, and this particular deck is well suited to ignore it's biggest drawback: topdecking it late game. In the past, decks have just accepted that as a fair trade for the mana it provides in the early game. But THIS deck can cash in late game Vials with Cryptbreaker, Brutality, or even Liliana OTV.
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Modern: BW Zombies / BGR Assault Loam / BUR Control
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
I'll let you in on a big secret: you Vial on turn 1. Modern doesn't usually kill on turns 1 or 2, so you don't have to Thoughtseize. Leave it on whatever your deck's curve is. For a Modern Zombie deck, that will often be 2, but you adjust to the circumstances and the hand you draw.
Vial has proven itself for many years, and this particular deck is well suited to ignore it's biggest drawback: topdecking it late game. In the past, decks have just accepted that as a fair trade for the mana it provides in the early game. But THIS deck can cash in late game Vials with Cryptbreaker, Brutality, or even Liliana OTV.
It's not just thoughtseize I want to play. It's playing an actual threat, or killing a mana dork. These all seem like better turn one plays than a vial. So if I delay vial until turn two, it helps me cheat out a guy on turn three. By turn three though I should have expended most of my one drops, and maybe even holding some back so I don't over-extend. An extra two-drop on turn four seems nice if I can play it with another 3 drop and leave a mana up but now I'm allocating 60-66% of the cards I saw that game and I'm not counting whatever I played on turns 1-3.
What is the line of play with vial that makes you grin and say "Yes, this is why I play vial."
Playing an extra creature each turn, at instant speed (during their draw, after they attack, or simply their EoT), uncounterable, without paying it's mana cost is why I like Vial.
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Modern: BW Zombies / BGR Assault Loam / BUR Control
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It's not one extra creature each turn, because you don't have enough cards for that. It's still counterable because the vial can be countered, or blown up before it gets to value. It doesn't matter if you cheat in after they attack because so many of our things come in tapped, so surprise creatures aren't of much value. All vial does is trade tempo for protection against sorcery speed responses.
Ok, you're right. Trespasser's Curse is a great card, Vial is awful, Relentless Dead comes into play tapped, and you can counter creatures that are Vialed in.
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Modern: BW Zombies / BGR Assault Loam / BUR Control
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Ok, you're right. Trespasser's Curse is a great card, Vial is awful, Relentless Dead comes into play tapped, and you can counter creatures that are Vialed in.
I mean, sure, if you ignore what I actually say and replace it with text from a strawman I look really dumb!
I think the real question regarding vial is stuff you need to cut for it. Because yes in a vacuum aether vial is great, but you need to max out on creatures, cutting interaction. You'd have to go 4 removal, 4 discard, 4 vial and 26-ish creatures, with 22-ish lands. Is the trade-off worth it? Maybe.
I'd love to read more reports on people testing different versions before i dive back in this deck.
I think the real question regarding vial is stuff you need to cut for it. Because yes in a vacuum aether vial is great, but you need to max out on creatures, cutting interaction. You'd have to go 4 removal, 4 discard, 4 vial and 26-ish creatures, with 22-ish lands. Is the trade-off worth it? Maybe.
I'd love to read more reports on people testing different versions before i dive back in this deck.
I agree completely. Vial puts a huge squeeze on your non-creature spells. My first go will be with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Push, 4 Vial, and the rest creatures and lands. Sadly, that leaves no room for Liliana, but I expect the freed up mana will be useful for all the activated ability costs. I'll report back with my findings.
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Modern: BW Zombies / BGR Assault Loam / BUR Control
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
I think the real question regarding vial is stuff you need to cut for it. Because yes in a vacuum aether vial is great, but you need to max out on creatures, cutting interaction. You'd have to go 4 removal, 4 discard, 4 vial and 26-ish creatures, with 22-ish lands. Is the trade-off worth it? Maybe.
I'd love to read more reports on people testing different versions before i dive back in this deck.
I agree completely. Vial puts a huge squeeze on your non-creature spells. My first go will be with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Push, 4 Vial, and the rest creatures and lands. Sadly, that leaves no room for Liliana, but I expect the freed up mana will be useful for all the activated ability costs. I'll report back with my findings.
Why do you want maindeck discard? You are just warping your aggro deck into a bad jund.
I think the real question regarding vial is stuff you need to cut for it. Because yes in a vacuum aether vial is great, but you need to max out on creatures, cutting interaction. You'd have to go 4 removal, 4 discard, 4 vial and 26-ish creatures, with 22-ish lands. Is the trade-off worth it? Maybe.
I'd love to read more reports on people testing different versions before i dive back in this deck.
I agree completely. Vial puts a huge squeeze on your non-creature spells. My first go will be with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Push, 4 Vial, and the rest creatures and lands. Sadly, that leaves no room for Liliana, but I expect the freed up mana will be useful for all the activated ability costs. I'll report back with my findings.
Why do you want maindeck discard? You are just warping your aggro deck into a bad jund.
Tuesday i tried adding more sac outlets :
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
artifacts: 2
2 blasting station
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
2 viscera seer
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
4 geralf's messenger
2 plague belcher
4 cavern of souls
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
3 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 ghost quarter
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 orzhov pontiff
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 fleshbag marauder
2 ranger of eos
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
Tuesday 0-2-drop
R1 loss 0-2 against valakut. Both games i tried to race since i had zero hand disruption, and failed because my opponent was playing a weird version with prismatic omen, which he drew both games. This makes the deck a turn faster and negates the advantage of having more than 18 life, since he deals huge chunks of damage with 4x valakuts. Overall felt like a bad matchup, especially because of anger of the gods.
R2 loss 0-2 vs mardu tokens. G1 opponent curved grim lavamancer into young pyromancer. I drew zero hand disruption and zero removal, AND got stuck on lands. G2 my opponent thoughtseize away my ranger of eos. He drew 3 lands and all spells the whole game, while i topdecked only lands for like 5 turns. I had blasting station and a gravecrawler in the graveyard and didn’t draw a zombie until my opponent just topdecked path to exile. Would have cleared the board of his soul tokens otherwise.
For the wednesday list i tried going all in for the go wide plan :
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
artifacts: 2
2 blasting station
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
4 tidehollow sculler
4 diregraf colossus
4 cavern of souls
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
3 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 ghost quarter
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 orzhov pontiff
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 fleshbag marauder
2 ranger of eos
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
Went 1-2
R1 win 2-1 vs sultai infect. Infect isn’t what it used to be. Hand disruption and removal go there G1 and G3, while G2 i had nothing to stop him. Wayward servant was able to deal the last few point of life loss in G3, otherwise the opponent would have had the chance to untap and maybe win.
R2 loss 0-2 vs bant aura. Basically bogles with more expensive threats such as geist of saint traft and sram, senior edificer. My removal paired poorly with his stuff. Could have raced him but was flooded G1 and mana short G2.
R3 0-2 vs tron. G1 when i cast tidehollow sculler turn 2 and saw double o-stone, well, awkward… Later Karn wasn’t so bad except it popped sanctum of ugin for ulamog, the ceaseless hunger. Can’t beat that. G2 started with ghost quarter and concealed courtyard on a 6 card hand with lots of interaction. Never drew a second colored source, and lost.
Had trouble with lands and mulligans both days, but i’ve read the math and 22 lands should be alright… felt like i got quite unlucky.
Still in testing phase, so losing is part of learning! Things i learned :
Viscera seer feels real bad. Sac outlets are key and this one is fragile and the effect is underwhelming. Blasting station is the best one because of how it can pull me out of otherwise unwinnable situations. To win in modern you have to do powerful things, machine gun with station is quite strong, and i want to draw it every game. Cartel aristocrat may also be acceptable simply because its hard to kill and a good attacker/blocker, will have to give her a try eventually.
Geralf’s messenger >>> diregraf colossus. Colossus does nothing before turn 4 and dies at everything. Always wished it was messeger.
Plague belcher is powerful when things go right and kind of bad when to opponent plays a barrage of removal spells and you don’t have anything you want to sac. Kind of unfortunate that he is easy to kill for midrange decks, but he was very good in other matchups, so though call.
Always felt like i wanted removal or hand disruption. It think 4x sculler is right, and i might try some number of path to exile, which would have been better than push in some situations.
I'm not quite there yet! Will post more testing next week.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dread Wanderer
3 Crypt Breaker
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Wayward Servant
3 Relentless Dead
4 Geralf’s Messenger
2 Plague Belcher
Non-Creature Spells: (13)
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Salvation
2 Collective Brutality
5 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Godless Shrine
3 Concealed Courtyard
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Fragmentize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Contaminated Ground
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Stony Silence
1 Disenchant
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dread Wanderer
2 CryptBreaker
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Wayward Servant
3 Relentless Dead
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Plague Belcher
2 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Salvation
2 Blasting Station
Lands: (20)
5 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Godless Shrine
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Cavern of Souls
This is the list I'm going to build and think it's very good. I only would like to play some diregraf colossus in there because I love this card but seems there is no room for them right now.
What do you think?
I'll answer some questions about this list:
1. the list has 19 lands because our curve is very low, we are like a burn deck in terms of curve. burn decks play 19 or 20 lands, depending on the person.
2. Collective Brutality seems better than blasting station for not only costing 1 less, but also how good it is against our tough matchups which are ; Coco decks, burn, storm, Ad Nauseum. Creature matchups like merfolk and elves, Death Shadow, affinity, etc. are really not bad as we pack lots of creature removal (path, push, dark salvation). Against tron, neither blasting station nor Collective Brutality are good (oh well).
3. Wayward Servant is a great 2 drop even as a late game topdeck, because we often have a gravecrawler or dreaded wanderer in the yard. That's the beauty of having 8 recursive threats as opposed to having only gravecrawler before Amonkhet was released.
4. Check out the 3 Contaminated Ground in the SB. These are essentially our version of "Spreading Seas". We need help against Tron, and this sb has 6 cards you could bring in: 3 Contaminated Grounds, 1 Anguished Unmaking, 2 Stony Silence, Swap out the 3 Fatal Push, 2 Collective Brutality, and 1 Dark Salvation.
In a format with blood moon, why do you not have a single Plains in the deck for your fetchlands?
EDIT: Try this mana base.
Burn decks cap their mainboard curve at 2 CMC. We want to reliably cast Messengers or Belchers on T3. And the sooner you hit 3-4 lands the earlier you have enough mana to simultaneously build your board and interact. At 19 lands you have a 59% chance to hit your 3rd land drop T3. Going to 21 lands raises that to a slightly more comfortable 68%. You can always pitch the extras to Collective Brutality or Cryptbreaker, or use those lands to hit CMC 5 Salvations or rebuy your threats from the grave. Finally running 21 lands gives you more keepable 2 land hands while mulling. Anecdotally you may have played a handful of matches without getting mana screwed but I think the statistics support 21 lands.
4 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Fetid Heath
@Ace - Sorry to hear about the pair of underwhelming performances after your first 3-0! I still believe Tidehollow is the main reason to be in white, so I agree that you should bump the count up. I think it is especially important for you to be running as much hand disruption as possible seeing as how you are a more mid-range version of zombies... as you pointed out in your match reports, each time you tried to race you came up short. I think that means you need to be more disruptive or faster (more Savannah Lion Zombies!) or both.
Good luck on your future matches guys!
However, aside from those matchups, it feels like a weak card, specially against matchups where we're supposed to be the ones responding to their threats, like Burn.
Vial let's you cast Push and discard spells, or rebuy Crawler, or use Cryptbreaker and Relentless, while still deploying threats. Also useful for getting Cryptbreaker's card draw online quickly.
Not to mention Vial Sculler during their draw step is Tier Zero salt mine.
- - -
I'll try to get some games this week with a build or two and report back next weekend.
For those who have used Vial, how has it worked out?
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
Vial has proven itself for many years, and this particular deck is well suited to ignore it's biggest drawback: topdecking it late game. In the past, decks have just accepted that as a fair trade for the mana it provides in the early game. But THIS deck can cash in late game Vials with Cryptbreaker, Brutality, or even Liliana OTV.
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
It's not just thoughtseize I want to play. It's playing an actual threat, or killing a mana dork. These all seem like better turn one plays than a vial. So if I delay vial until turn two, it helps me cheat out a guy on turn three. By turn three though I should have expended most of my one drops, and maybe even holding some back so I don't over-extend. An extra two-drop on turn four seems nice if I can play it with another 3 drop and leave a mana up but now I'm allocating 60-66% of the cards I saw that game and I'm not counting whatever I played on turns 1-3.
What is the line of play with vial that makes you grin and say "Yes, this is why I play vial."
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Dread Wanderer
4x Gravecrawler
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wayward Servant
3x Relentless Dead
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Path to Exile
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands (21)
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Swamp
2x Godless Shrine
1x Plains
3x Lingering Souls
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Stony Silence
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Collective Brutality
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, The Last Hope
I mean, sure, if you ignore what I actually say and replace it with text from a strawman I look really dumb!
I'd love to read more reports on people testing different versions before i dive back in this deck.
I agree completely. Vial puts a huge squeeze on your non-creature spells. My first go will be with 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Push, 4 Vial, and the rest creatures and lands. Sadly, that leaves no room for Liliana, but I expect the freed up mana will be useful for all the activated ability costs. I'll report back with my findings.
Legacy: GWB Maverick / UBR Delver / C Eldrazi
Why do you want maindeck discard? You are just warping your aggro deck into a bad jund.
A little discard is nice on turn two or so in order to hit a: