This card has come up a lot since it's reveal, and people do try it out from time to time. Personally I just want more permanent solutions for two mana. The discard is appealing, but without a choice it's just meh.
Yeah I'm saying with the discard package and LOTV, Compelling Deterrence becomes a targeted removal spell.
This strikes me as a dream that's less reliable than Abrupt Decay, Anguished Unmaking, or Any other two cost creature kill spell.
Welcome to my attempt at a zombies list, I just wanted to share and get some feedback on a little brew that I've been cooking up, to talk about what I think has been holding back the archetype in the past, why I think Abzan is the optimal colour choice, and also explain why I believe my list is the best stride that Modern Zombies has had in a while. For the longest time I've wanted zombies to be at least somewhat decent in modern, since Innistrad standard it was my favourite archetype. Return to Innistrad brought the tribe close to competitive but ultimately falling flat, but now with Amonket being release and zombies getting some spicy new toys in the form of Dread Wanderer which gives zombies a total of 12 1 drop 2 power creatures, and Plague Belcher giving it the pseudo lord and big body it so desperately needs.
Why Should you Play Abzan Zombies?
Abzan Zombies is a fun synergistic creature based deck that can power through grave hate and removal, go toe to toe with other aggro strategies while still holding up its own against unfair decks post side, and punish draw-pass decks in the format. Or to dumb it down, if you simply like killing your own dudes for value and then bringing them back, this deck is probably for you.
Why Abzan?
Abzan gives us the best options in removal and the best options for 2 drop creatures. Variants such as Mono black, Black/X, or Jund lack this and are forced to play lower impact creatures, and lower impact cards in the 4 drop slot.
An issue with zombies in the past that I've noticed with other people's brews is that there's ALOT of 3 drops and not too many great 2 drop options, which makes the curve awkward and clunky. Gravecrawler's BFF, Lotleth Troll, and Relentless Dead are good starts but the brain hungry tribe needed something more. Zombie lords are also not very good in my opinion, because they don't offer evasiveness such as Merfolk lords, protection as we see in Spirits, or an insane clock like in Goblins. We also don't care too much about the pumps to everything since we don't care if our creatures die, as we're utilizing our graveyard frequently and bringing dudes back. Lords are also all three mana so again it adds to the chunkiness of the deck if we have too many of them, and doesn't allow for a smooth mana curve.
Analysis of Decisions
Wayward Servant is a great edition to the 2 drop slot for a zombie deck, as we're constantly bringing back Gravecrawlers and it gives extra value to Geralf's Messenger. In the past I feel like people were drawn more towards Blood Scrivener simply because there wasn't a whole lot going on in the two drop slot, but in my opinion this card just doesn't have enough impact and often times just does nothing. Wayard Servant gives us more value and a faster clock with gravecrawler + belcher / belcher + gerry shenanigans as discussed next. Bloodghast isn't a zombie but it's also a great option that I initially overlooked and is arguably better than Relentless Dead, due to its synergy with Lotleth Troll and Plague Belcher.
Plague Belcher is THE nut. This card is honestly insane, at worst it's a 3/2 for 3 with a great ability, AND evasiveness in the form of Menace. At best it's a 5/4 for 3, optimally putting the counters on a grave crawler. It also has some cute interactions with Geralf's Messenger as it can either A) kill Gerry while it's a 3/2 and trigger its ETB effect again for a total of 5 damage, or B) it can remove the +1/+1 counter on Gerry and allow you to get even more value. You can also alternatively put the counters on Relentless Dead and get some extra value if you have some extra mana past turn 3. If you get lucky and stick more than one belcher on the field, well it's safe to say you're in a pretty great spot.
Diregraf Colossus is another card I initially overlooked that seems great in this deck, as it has synergy with Gravecrawler and also Plague Belcher; allowing it to throw the counters on a zombie token. This card also just gets better the longer the game goes on so this is probably a must play.
Another problem I've seen in the past is the lack of a high impact 4 drop card. Going back to Innistrad standard the old zombie deck used to run Falkenrath Aristocrat for obvious reasons. It gives a lot of synergy to the deck and does something when it hits the battlefield but in a metagame where Path to Exile exists I don't think this card is strong enough. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is another option, but I found it to be too situational as it's really good against creature based decks and burn but it kind of falls flat in other matchups, which is why I decided to move it to the sideboard. Phyrexian Obliterator is another option however I find it be too slow and at times lackluster. It also makes our deck even more colour intensive than it already is. ALAS, Collected Company is the answer. This allows us to get on the board faster and also gives us more gas once we start to run out. I've also won games due to CoCo-ing into a Belcher plus a Gerry and just dealing 5 at instant speed, possibly more if you already have a belcher or wayward servant on the field.
Now you might be asking why not play Aether Vial? While I'll admit there is some argument to playing it, and it's certainly not terrible I do believe it's either one or the other. Playing both sometimes makes for clunky hands and in a mana curve as low as ours where we already have 12 1 drop creatures and 4 more 1 drop instants I think it makes the curve a tad awkward.
Match ups
I really want to get the chance to take this to a larger tournament before I give any in depth guide on match ups, I'll update more as I keep playing and fine tuning my list.
Mana Curve / Creature Options ranked from best(top) to worst(bottom)
You want to play all of these no matter what. 12 1 mana 2 power creatures gives the deck a consistent play turn 1, and can be an easy side out if you choose to side in things like Inquizition or Thoughseize
Choosing between Tidehollow Sculler or Wayward Servant main board is honestly preference. Wayward gives you more value on things like Gravecrawler, Geralf's messenger and Diregraf colossus and can quickly get out of hand if not dealt with right away; Sculler can take away hard to answer threats and also removal and main board Anger of the Gods which hits us pretty hard, and generally gives you a better match up against Combo. I thought Relentless Dead was great initially but a lot of times it feels underwhelming, and bloodghast just seems a lot better in it's slot as it has more synergy with Lotleth Troll n Plague Belcher as previously mentioned.
The zombie lords are clunky and slow, and there are just FAR better options in the 3 drop slots. Cemetery Reaper's activated ability is just a worse version of Diregraf Colossus, Diregraf Captain is probably the best out of the bunch but it's competing against the super star of the deck Plague Belcher, which has the same triggered ability on a far bigger body, and also forces us to play blue. Lord of The Undead lets us return a guy to our hand but we're also playing Bloodghast/Relentless Dead/Gravecrawler/Dread Wanderer which already all come back to the battlefield. Death Baron and Lord of the Acursed are both decent but again there just a lot of competition in this mana slot,Belcher Gerry and Colossus are just far better and we only want to play 8-9 3 drops,
Phylactery Lich is an option to consider if you do decide to go the aether vial route but it can be inconsistent and a do nothing card if you don't get a turn 1/2 vial.
Fleshbag Marauder and Life Bane Zombie offers more removal and hand disruption respectively, that can also be hit off of Collected Company. This cards are alright as side board options if you really want, depending on the current / your local metagame.
Varolz gives value to the cheap zombies that don't come back, but if you're playing it, you're not playing as many zombies which makes Belcher, Wayward Servant, and Colossus considerably worse.
Company is the go to here, play 4. Kalitas is also really good in some match ups but is lackluster in others so I've moved it to the side. If you it in you probably want to side out a CoCo as I constantly find myself having both in hand, and it feels awkward because I want to cast Kalitas but CoCo is the better play the majority of the time.
If you want to play a version with red Falkenrath is an option to consider, however I don't feel as though this card is as crazy in modern as it was while in standard, and it definitely isn't at the same power level as CoCo or even Kalitas.
Mono black variants might want to consider Obliterator but it's pretty bad in Abzan since it's 4 black to cast and again, is underwhelming compared to Company.
Thanks for reading and let me know what you guys think, and any modifications you come up with if you do decide to take up this brew! #makezombiesgreatagain
Cryptbreaker is not a great topdeck, specially if you have already one out, but he's an extremely versatile value engine, we run 4 because we want to see at least one each game.
Between Cryptbreaker, Liliana, Collective Brutality, we have several ways to get value out of our less-desirable topdecks. I'd even think that Cryptbreaker is probably the best reason to be playing zombies, if we just wanted a bunch of Savannah Lions we'd be playing humans, but it's the graveyard interactions and grindy card advantage that sets zombies apart as a deck.
I like your list a lot although I would remove almost all the white and up the number of cavern of souls to four making your manabase more resilient and less painful.
Also I would include at least a couple of Diregraf Colossus because they can populate the board really quick and have lot of synergy with Wayward Servant and Plague Belcher. I would cut 2 Diregraf Ghoul for 2 Diregraf Colossus so you still have plenty (10) of 2/x zombies for B and also have a better lategame.
Gifted aetherborn is actually played along with Bloodghast in the only zombie list I've seen top 8 a major modern event, so there's that. I think we shouldn't limit ourselves to playing only zombies, even if we're making use of zombie interactions.
What do you guys think about running a top end of ~2x Worship? It certainly plays to the tribe's resiliency and helps against linear decks that are faster than us.
I'm thinking who would we side Worship against. Eldrazis can blow it up with engineered explosives, Death's Shadow often runs Anger of the Gods as do many mono R builds. Junk and Jund run plenty of versatile removal to deal with enchantments anyways. Living End mainboards Beast Within.
It'd be nice against storm if they're not running a lot of bounce. And it seems like affinity and dredge simply cannot kill us through a Worship, so it's an interesting sideboard choice against those three decks but not mainboard material.
Dispel is good because it protects your threats (mostly Tidehollow), not because it interacts with your opponents game plan. Combo, big Mana and control don't get hate from my side board...to me the reason to play zombies aggressively is to beat those decks in the first place. Which is why Savannah lions is better than cryprbreaker. I'd rather gain a lot in those 3 matches, and then side out Savannah Lions against the fair decks for more mid rangey stuff... Ive actually played around with a second copy of Cryptbreaker in the SB for that reason, but ive since moved off that. I prefer walkers and lingering souls from the SB.
I'm thinking who would we side Worship against. Eldrazis can blow it up with engineered explosives, Death's Shadow often runs Anger of the Gods as do many mono R builds. Junk and Jund run plenty of versatile removal to deal with enchantments anyways. Living End mainboards Beast Within.
It'd be nice against storm if they're not running a lot of bounce. And it seems like affinity and dredge simply cannot kill us through a Worship, so it's an interesting sideboard choice against those three decks but not mainboard material.
Junk lists run 3-4x Thoughtseize and a single Maelstrom Pulse in the main. Occasionally they'll have something extra in the side. If they can pick it out of your hand with Thoughtseize that is a problem, I admit, but if you get a chance to play it there's a pretty good chance it'll stick unless they draw their one or two answers. Abrupt Decay and Inquisition both miss it since it's CMC 4. Jund midrange's meta has been significantly displaced by Death's Shadow, which still has 4x Thoughtseize to get past but otherwise doesn't run the Maelstrom Pulse.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Eldrazi have to have a Birds of Paradise in play and all three bant colored lands to target 4 CMC for Engineered Explosives. That's certainly possible, but it's not easy. If you can kill their bird you shut off that option. Plus, if they're pumping 6 mana into EE and taking out Worship that's an EE that's not wiping part of your creatures.
Anger of the Gods is a problem, but that's an issue that the deck has to have a plan for, Worship or not.
Cryptbreaker is not a great topdeck, specially if you have already one out, but he's an extremely versatile value engine, we run 4 because we want to see at least one each game.
Between Cryptbreaker, Liliana, Collective Brutality, we have several ways to get value out of our less-desirable topdecks. I'd even think that Cryptbreaker is probably the best reason to be playing zombies, if we just wanted a bunch of Savannah Lions we'd be playing humans, but it's the graveyard interactions and grindy card advantage that sets zombies apart as a deck.
Yes, i agree 100%, I also think grindy card advantage and resilience is what makes zombies unique as a tribe (and why i like them). For my part i'll focus on that aspect of the tribe's identity in my future testing.
Welcome to my first attempt at a primer, I just wanted to share and get some feedback on a little brew that I've been cooking up, to talk about what I think has been holding back the archetype in the past, why I think Abzan is the optimal colour choice, and also explain why I believe my list is the best stride that Modern Zombies has had in a while. For the longest time I've wanted zombies to be at least somewhat decent in modern, since Innistrad standard it was my favourite archetype. Return to Innistrad brought the tribe close to competitive but ultimately falling flat, but now with Amonket being release and zombies getting some spicy new toys in the form of Dread Wanderer which gives zombies a total of 12 1 drop 2 power creatures, and Plague Belcher giving it the pseudo lord and big body it so desperately needs.
Why Should you Play Abzan Zombies?
Abzan Zombies is a fun synergistic creature based deck that can power through grave hate and removal, go toe to toe with other aggro strategies while still holding up its own against unfair decks post side, and punish draw-pass decks in the format. Or to dumb it down, if you simply like killing your own dudes for value and then bringing them back, this deck is probably for you.
Why Abzan?
Abzan gives us the best options in removal and the best options for 2 drop creatures. Variants such as Mono black, Black/X, or Jund lack this and are forced to play lower impact creatures, and lower impact cards in the 4 drop slot.
An issue with zombies in the past that I've noticed with other people's brews is that there's ALOT of 3 drops and not too many great 2 drop options, which makes the curve awkward and clunky. Gravecrawler's BFF, Lotleth Troll, and Relentless Dead are good starts but the brain hungry tribe needed something more. Zombie lords are also not very good in my opinion, because they don't offer evasiveness such as Merfolk lords, protection as we see in Spirits, or an insane clock like in Goblins. We also don't care too much about the pumps to everything since we don't care if our creatures die, as we're utilizing our graveyard frequently and bringing dudes back. Lords are also all three mana so again it adds to the chunkiness of the deck if we have too many of them, and doesn't allow for a smooth mana curve.
Analysis of Decisions
Wayward Servant is a great edition to the 2 drop slot for a zombie deck, as we're constantly bringing back Gravecrawlers and it gives extra value to Geralf's Messenger. In the past I feel like people were drawn more towards Blood Scrivener simply because there wasn't a whole lot going on in the two drop slot, but in my opinion this card just doesn't have enough impact and often times just does nothing. Wayard Servant gives us more value and a faster clock with gravecrawler + belcher / belcher + gerry shenanigans as discussed next. Bloodghast isn't a zombie but it's also a great option that I initially overlooked and is arguably better than Relentless Dead, due to its synergy with Lotleth Troll and Plague Belcher.
Plague Belcher is THE nut. This card is honestly insane, at worst it's a 3/2 for 3 with a great ability, AND evasiveness in the form of Menace. At best it's a 5/4 for 3, optimally putting the counters on a grave crawler. It also has some cute interactions with Geralf's Messenger as it can either A) kill Gerry while it's a 3/2 and trigger its ETB effect again for a total of 5 damage, or B) it can remove the +1/+1 counter on Gerry and allow you to get even more value. You can also alternatively put the counters on Relentless Dead and get some extra value if you have some extra mana past turn 3. If you get lucky and stick more than one belcher on the field, well it's safe to say you're in a pretty great spot.
Diregraf Colossus is another card I initially overlooked that seems great in this deck, as it has synergy with Gravecrawler and also Plague Belcher; allowing it to throw the counters on a zombie token. This card also just gets better the longer the game goes on so this is probably a must play.
Another problem I've seen in the past is the lack of a high impact 4 drop card. Going back to Innistrad standard the old zombie deck used to run Falkenrath Aristocrat for obvious reasons. It gives a lot of synergy to the deck and does something when it hits the battlefield but in a metagame where Path to Exile exists I don't think this card is strong enough. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is another option, but I found it to be too situational as it's really good against creature based decks and burn but it kind of falls flat in other matchups, which is why I decided to move it to the sideboard. Phyrexian Obliterator is another option however I find it be too slow and at times lackluster. It also makes our deck even more colour intensive than it already is. ALAS, Collected Company is the answer. This allows us to get on the board faster and also gives us more gas once we start to run out. I've also won games due to CoCo-ing into a Belcher plus a Gerry and just dealing 5 at instant speed, possibly more if you already have a belcher or wayward servant on the field.
Now you might be asking why not play Aether Vial? While I'll admit there is some argument to playing it, and it's certainly not terrible I do believe it's either one or the other. Playing both sometimes makes for clunky hands and in a mana curve as low as ours where we already have 12 1 drop creatures and 4 more 1 drop instants I think it makes the curve a tad awkward.
Match ups
I really want to get the chance to take this to a larger tournament before I give any in depth guide on match ups, I'll update more as I keep playing and fine tuning my list.
Mana Curve / Creature Options ranked from best(top) to worst(bottom)
You want to play all of these no matter what. 12 1 mana 2 power creatures gives the deck a consistent play turn 1, and can be an easy side out if you choose to side in things like Inquizition or Thoughseize
Choosing between Tidehollow Sculler or Wayward Servant main board is honestly preference. Wayward gives you more value on things like Gravecrawler, Geralf's messenger and Diregraf colossus and can quickly get out of hand if not dealt with right away; Sculler can take away hard to answer threats and also removal and main board Anger of the Gods which hits us pretty hard, and generally gives you a better match up against Combo. I thought Relentless Dead was great initially but a lot of times it feels underwhelming, and bloodghast just seems a lot better in it's slot as it has more synergy with Lotleth Troll n Plague Belcher as previously mentioned.
The zombie lords are clunky and slow, and there are just FAR better options in the 3 drop slots. Cemetery Reaper's activated ability is just a worse version of Diregraf Colossus, Diregraf Captain is probably the best out of the bunch but it's competing against the super star of the deck Plague Belcher, which has the same triggered ability on a far bigger body, and also forces us to play blue. Lord of The Undead lets us return a guy to our hand but we're also playing Bloodghast/Relentless Dead/Gravecrawler/Dread Wanderer which already all come back to the battlefield. Death Baron and Lord of the Acursed are both decent but again there just a lot of competition in this mana slot,Belcher Gerry and Colossus are just far better and we only want to play 8-9 3 drops,
Phylactery Lich is an option to consider if you do decide to go the aether vial route but it can be inconsistent and a do nothing card if you don't get a turn 1/2 vial.
Fleshbag Marauder and Life Bane Zombie offers more removal and hand disruption respectively, that can also be hit off of Collected Company. This cards are alright as side board options if you really want, depending on the current / your local metagame.
Varolz gives value to the cheap zombies that don't come back, but if you're playing it, you're not playing as many zombies which makes Belcher, Wayward Servant, and Colossus considerably worse.
Company is the go to here, play 4. Kalitas is also really good in some match ups but is lackluster in others so I've moved it to the side. If you it in you probably want to side out a CoCo as I constantly find myself having both in hand, and it feels awkward because I want to cast Kalitas but CoCo is the better play the majority of the time.
If you want to play a version with red Falkenrath is an option to consider, however I don't feel as though this card is as crazy in modern as it was while in standard, and it definitely isn't at the same power level as CoCo or even Kalitas.
Mono black variants might want to consider Obliterator but it's pretty bad in Abzan since it's 4 black to cast and again, is underwhelming compared to Company.
Thanks for reading and let me know what you guys think, and any modifications you come up with if you do decide to take up this brew! #makezombiesgreatagain
You got to ask if you want to take over a deck thread if it already exists. As zombies has no "real" primer, its very ok, just message me first. Also it needs to be a consensus of either 1. a very open primer, not of your brew but the zombie archetype and all it has to offer in general or B. a very specific version but the over all consensus is this is the best version.
We're pretty far from reaching a consensus build here, with several different color combinations (B, Bw, BWG, BUG) and build emphases (tempo vs grind, combat damage vs drain, etc) and each Zombie card can excel in particular builds. Actual testing and results are rather sparse at the moment. I would prefer to hold off on a primer that attempts to rate cards in a vacuum until things have had a chance to mature. A general overview of the tribe's strengths would be a good place to start.
You got to ask if you want to take over a deck thread if it already exists. As zombies has no "real" primer, its very ok, just message me first. Also it needs to be a consensus of either 1. a very open primer, not of your brew but the zombie archetype and all it has to offer in general or B. a very specific version but the over all consensus is this is the best version.
I was looking over for threads specifically for Abzan and didn't find any so I thought it would be alright. Apologies for not realizing and not understanding fully what a primer was, I'll use a different tag for something like this in the future. (and just incase there's confusing that was all sincere n not in a sarcastic / attitude-y kind of way lmao)
We're pretty far from reaching a consensus build here, with several different color combinations (B, Bw, BWG, BUG) and build emphases (tempo vs grind, combat damage vs drain, etc) and each Zombie card can excel in particular builds. Actual testing and results are rather sparse at the moment. I would prefer to hold off on a primer that attempts to rate cards in a vacuum until things have had a chance to mature. A general overview of the tribe's strengths would be a good place to start.
Figured as much, which is why I left that option out there. Someone somewhere might know a much of zombie set ups and care enough about it. Its a popular tribe.
You got to ask if you want to take over a deck thread if it already exists. As zombies has no "real" primer, its very ok, just message me first. Also it needs to be a consensus of either 1. a very open primer, not of your brew but the zombie archetype and all it has to offer in general or B. a very specific version but the over all consensus is this is the best version.
I was looking over for threads specifically for Abzan and didn't find any so I thought it would be alright. Apologies for not realizing and not understanding fully what a primer was, I'll use a different tag for something like this in the future. (and just incase there's confusing that was all sincere n not in a sarcastic / attitude-y kind of way lmao)
No worries. Zombies is popular enough that more than 1 thread could float around, and we like keeping stuff a little cleaner than that. I can still add your primer to the OP since there isnt one yet anyways when your ready unless someone else wants to do an indepth one.
I started off with 4x Thought Scour. There are 16 cards that we want to dump into the grave, so there's a 40% chance of getting 1 hit, and a 7% chance of getting dumping 2 useful creatures. A 47% success rate just wasn't high enough to me, and the act of playing Thought Scour had no impact on the board. It also didn't help with Bloodghasts / Amalgams stuck in hand, and I had to warp my manabase around keeping blue castable.
The solution was to move more towards discard and looting effects: Cryptbreaker, Lotleth Troll, Collective Brutality, and Smuggler's Copter.
Cryptbreaker was the first to get cut. My list was drifting towards an all-in aggro strategy, and with so many creatures tapping for combat I wasn't getting enough value from Cryptbreaker's tap-draw ability. The discard ability was situationally useful but generally too expensive and slow to get good tempo benefits from Bloodghast / Amalgam. Cryptbreaker is best in lists with lots of non-attacking bodies (Sculler, Servant, Mummy etc) going for a slow grind.
Lotleth Troll is awesome. Even though I said I was building around Amalgam this is the guy doing all the real work. Pitching Bloodghast / Amalgam / Gravecrawler to bulk up Troll and then bringing back the discarded cards for free / cheap does lead to some busted plays. But even without discard fodder Troll's trample and regeneration make him a solid play for 2 mana. Collective Brutality and Smuggler's Copter are also solid cards even without discard fodder. There is some variability in terms of drawing discard outlets (11x) without fodder (16x) and vice versa, but since each half is reasonably competent on its own you don't run into the same issues that you do, say, drawing the wrong half of a ramp deck.
I did encounter some scenarios where my Gravecrawlers / Bloodghasts / Wanderers were already on the field and a discarded Amalgam was stuck in the graveyard. Your opponent won't necessarily help you put one of these enablers into the grave with combat so instead of adding a sac outlet I'm running 4x Plague Belcher in the top end to help put an enabler back into the GY. Because of the higher than normal density of cheap recursive creatures Plague Belcher can more consistently enter as a 5/4 without losing value.
To handle the inevitable graveyard hate the deck can swap Push for Thoughtseize, and has additional copies of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in the side. Thoughtseize + Collective Brutality has a decent chance of catching an Anger of the Gods before it's cast.
I like that the deck has several avenues of evasion and direct damage: beats via Lotleth Troll's Trample, Plague Belcher's Menace, Smuggler's Copter's Flying, drain from Plague Belcher's passive ability, Geralf's Messenger's ETB drain, and Collective Brutality's drain mode. Plus with enough recursive threats you can sometimes just go wide and keep sneaking damage through while re-playing anything that dies from blocking.
Dread Wanderer is OK. I had dismissed 2B recursion as being too expensive, but when pitching him and recurring him at 2B also brings you back a free Amalgam or another counter on Troll or another mode on Collective Brutality the extra two mana to recur him isn't completely awful. He's worth running in the build for the extra consistency even if he is the lowest value of the recursion enablers.
I did try running CoCo in the build, but it wasn't worth it. The deck doesn't have any problems maintaining card advantage, it can cheat bodies in at an unfair rate with Brutality & Bloodghast / Amalgam, it required me to run more lands / a higher curve, it didn't help to reliably enable my recursion shenanigans, and perhaps most importantly it was also diluting my interaction and discard outlets. Overall the combination of Lotleth Troll and Abrupt Decay make the green splash very much worth it, though.
Flex spots are the 4th Copter, the 3rd Brutality, and Plague Belcher / Geralf's Messenger. The current cards work well, but there might be something even better to run here.
I do have to admit that I stuck my foot in my mouth a bit by trash talking Amalgam so much. While I still hope more good enablers will be printed in Hour of Devastation it turns out that using Lotleth Troll for discard, Dread Wanderer for an extra bit of recursion, and Abrupt Decay for answering graveyard hate (among other troublesome permanents) has made this route a lot more viable than I expected. There does seem to be room for sufficient threats, discard outlets line up with fodder consistently enough to be worthwhile, and the interaction suite is pretty solid for a tribal aggro deck. I haven't gotten enough games in yet to say that this is definitively stronger or weaker than the BW vial list, but it is certainly a strong contender IMO.
What do you guys think of Lifebane Zombie as Junk/MonoG/MonoW/Podless sideboard?
The guy is a 2-for-1 in the right matchups, is evasive and has an aggressive body. Nabbing combo pieces off podless hand by exiling them is super strong. I guess the main drawback is that he lands on the field a little late when odds are most creatures have hit the field already.
As an experiment I built a list around Prized Amalgam to get a better *snip*
I love this deck. It's like the CoCo BUG Zombies I was planning but actually good and consistent.
Got a couple of questions though:
First of all: Wouldn't Dismember mesh better with Abrupt Decay so we're not unable to deal with Reality Smasher? And secondly, think we could cut one Dread Wanderer, one Plague Belcher and maybe a Collective to make room for 3 mainboard thoughtseizes?.
I could see a copy or two of Dismember somewhere in the 75. My plan for Reality Smasher was Maelstrom Pulse since it comes with the advantages of sometimes hitting multiple Eldrazi while also being able to take care of their other problematic permanents like Worship, Grafdigger's Cage, and perhaps even Engineered Explosives if they have to wait a turn to activate it.
Another slightly jankier option might be a singleton Tragic Slip. We don't have have a sac outlet per se to turn this on but we do have Belcher, lots of other destruction-based removal, and lots of creatures that we're ok with dying in combat. It's slightly gimmicky but can be an effective and mana-efficient surprise in Modern sometimes. One last option would be Victim of Night.
Glissa is my sideboard tech against Eldrazi (and DSJ). Other than Skyspawner they basically can't attack through first strike + deathtouch, so that's another way of neutralizing Reality Smasher. She can also recur Smuggler's Copter. She could easily be maindeckable in the current meta (lots of DSJ/Eldrazi, not so much lightning bolt) but I'm focusing on synergy in the main for now.
As for shaving things for mainboard Thoughtseize: 26 is about as low as I want to go on Zombie threats in the main board. Yes the substitutions you mentioned could "work" but you're also shaving down the consistency of your discard shenanigans (whose tempo and virtual card advantage is the reason we're exposing ourselves to so much potential hate), and you're most likely to get away with those pre-board game 1. I like to build my tribal MB as all-in and synergy based as possible and then have alternate interactive configurations I can side into.. but that's just me.
EDIT: I'm not sure about Lifebane Zombie. I agree that there's definitely potential there against Abzan Melira Combo, GW Value Town decks, Elves, and Mono-White or GW Taxes since they don't run any black creatures. I'm not totally convinced about Junk, since they can often run some combination of Bob / Flayer / Tasigur / Siege Rhino. Playing a hand-pick effect on turn 3 is already a little late, as you mentioned. Probably too late for Elves. I'm not convinced Lifebane Zombie is necessarily the best choice for the global meta at the moment, but it may be a good choice for your local meta.
I do think there is a place for Liliana of the Veil somewhere in the 75.
Liliana is kind of a value engine when you're pitching Bloodghast, Amalgams and Gravecrawlers to her +1, protecting her isn't quite as troublesome since you can get around the "Can't block clause" by crewing a copter.
Nice looking list Shelldell. Almagam looks a lot better here than in other lists, specifically with Troll.
A couple thoughts for for you to mull over - At slightly better than 47% chance to hit, Thought Scour is basically "Draw 1.5 cards" at instant speed for 1 mana, that's a great card. Maybe even better than that because often those cards are going to sneak into play without any mana investment. Another couple ways to optimize Thought Scour is by adding a pair of Delve threats (Gurmag Angler is a Zombie and Tasigur is great and on colour for you). Also. every creature is a potential hit off scour if you decide to run Liliana, The last hope. Lilly also gives you the ability to rebuy something like Belcher, in order to kill Gravecrawler, in order to recast gravecrawler, triggering prized amalgam... :D. Magical Christmas land for sure, but lots of value to be had with LTLH
I'd also like to mention that I love Smuggler's Copter, but I think 4 is the wrong number. I've tried varying numbers of Copter's from 1-4 in Zombies and in Goblins and hated every time I drew the second copter - it was bad well over 90% of the time. The first one was almost always incredible (and takes the heat off other prime removal targets). Your list looks a lot better suited to use the discard mode on copter than anything I messed around with, but I still have my doubts that you are ever going to enjoy drawing the second copy, and if you do find yourself with the second copy, keep it in hand so that your other one still acts a lightning rod. I'm still not decided on whether I want 1 or 2 copies main, but I would recommend starting your testing with 3 or less.
I agree that I didn't give enough credit to the potential maximum value for Thought Scour if it's fully built around. You are certainly correct that by adding Delve threats and secondary recursion engines we could milk some more power out of it, and I encourage you to explore that avenue in your testing. My biggest concern is hitting the sweet-spot of utilizing the graveyard as an extra resource while not crumbling in the face of (inevitable) hate. Sure, there will be times that we pluck the hate away with Thoughtseize or have a Decay/Pulse in hand to blow it up once it's played. But there will also be plenty of games where the hate sticks. Maybe you're right and we can go deeper down the graveyard shenanigan hole before it bites us. Hard to say. But the fact that I have to shift from a "2.1" color manabase to a true 3 color manabase to better support Thought Scour is enough to make me pause and really contemplate what we'd gain vs how much softer we'd be before going further.
Personally I haven't had any problems with Copter yet. I could certainly shave the fourth copy but I'm not quite sure what it wants to be replaced with yet. The replacement pretty much has to be another discard outlet to maintain consistency and I'm not quite sure if I want Liliana of the Veil in the main or something else.
Yea, the colour requirement is a real drawback for sure, I find myself taking a lot of damage from my Mana base, which depending on the meta could be a real problem. For now though, at least in my experience, zombies are the beat down so the life loss hasn't been as relevant as it could be. I'll keep pushing my Mana until the meta punishes me for it or I can find a black/blue 2 drop on par with Tidehollow/lotleth :S
Glissa is my sideboard tech against Eldrazi (and DSJ). Other than Skyspawner they basically can't attack through first strike + deathtouch, so that's another way of neutralizing Reality Smasher. She can also recur Smuggler's Copter. She could easily be maindeckable in the current meta (lots of DSJ/Eldrazi, not so much lightning bolt) but I'm focusing on synergy in the main for now.
Glissa, the Traitor is just a sweetheart. I ran two in my Rock for the longest time along with one Executioner's Capsule main-deck and another side-board along with one copy of Engineered Explosives. It's probably jank but it was SO MUCH FUN when it worked! And it did work reasonably often.
When I find my get-up-and-go, I'll rebuild the Rock with Traverse the Ulvenwald to make Glissa and other tool-box creatures hopefully even better.
Apologies for the digression, but I do like Glissa in any BG list.
At some point in trying to build and optimize on the graveyard shenanigans you'll probably come across the fact that Thoughtscour plays really well with dredge by turning that draw trigger into a dredge trigger. And then you start cutting secondary stuff for similar looting effects and before you realize it you're building bootleg Dredge.
With Dredge one of the main decks of the format, and the undisputed king of graveyard shenanigans we also have to ask ourselves : What sets us apart from Dredge? Why would we sleeve up Zombies instead of Dredge?.
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This strikes me as a dream that's less reliable than Abrupt Decay, Anguished Unmaking, or Any other two cost creature kill spell.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dread Wanderer
4 Diregraf Ghoul
2 Bloodghast
2 Lotleth Troll
4 Wayward Servant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Geralf's Messenger
4 Plague Belcher
Spells:
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Concealed Courtyard
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
Plague Belcher is THE nut. This card is honestly insane, at worst it's a 3/2 for 3 with a great ability, AND evasiveness in the form of Menace. At best it's a 5/4 for 3, optimally putting the counters on a grave crawler. It also has some cute interactions with Geralf's Messenger as it can either A) kill Gerry while it's a 3/2 and trigger its ETB effect again for a total of 5 damage, or B) it can remove the +1/+1 counter on Gerry and allow you to get even more value. You can also alternatively put the counters on Relentless Dead and get some extra value if you have some extra mana past turn 3. If you get lucky and stick more than one belcher on the field, well it's safe to say you're in a pretty great spot.
Diregraf Colossus is another card I initially overlooked that seems great in this deck, as it has synergy with Gravecrawler and also Plague Belcher; allowing it to throw the counters on a zombie token. This card also just gets better the longer the game goes on so this is probably a must play.
Another problem I've seen in the past is the lack of a high impact 4 drop card. Going back to Innistrad standard the old zombie deck used to run Falkenrath Aristocrat for obvious reasons. It gives a lot of synergy to the deck and does something when it hits the battlefield but in a metagame where Path to Exile exists I don't think this card is strong enough. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is another option, but I found it to be too situational as it's really good against creature based decks and burn but it kind of falls flat in other matchups, which is why I decided to move it to the sideboard. Phyrexian Obliterator is another option however I find it be too slow and at times lackluster. It also makes our deck even more colour intensive than it already is. ALAS, Collected Company is the answer. This allows us to get on the board faster and also gives us more gas once we start to run out. I've also won games due to CoCo-ing into a Belcher plus a Gerry and just dealing 5 at instant speed, possibly more if you already have a belcher or wayward servant on the field.
Now you might be asking why not play Aether Vial? While I'll admit there is some argument to playing it, and it's certainly not terrible I do believe it's either one or the other. Playing both sometimes makes for clunky hands and in a mana curve as low as ours where we already have 12 1 drop creatures and 4 more 1 drop instants I think it makes the curve a tad awkward.
One Drops:
You want to play all of these no matter what. 12 1 mana 2 power creatures gives the deck a consistent play turn 1, and can be an easy side out if you choose to side in things like Inquizition or Thoughseize
Two Drops:
Choosing between Tidehollow Sculler or Wayward Servant main board is honestly preference. Wayward gives you more value on things like Gravecrawler, Geralf's messenger and Diregraf colossus and can quickly get out of hand if not dealt with right away; Sculler can take away hard to answer threats and also removal and main board Anger of the Gods which hits us pretty hard, and generally gives you a better match up against Combo. I thought Relentless Dead was great initially but a lot of times it feels underwhelming, and bloodghast just seems a lot better in it's slot as it has more synergy with Lotleth Troll n Plague Belcher as previously mentioned.
Three Drops:
The zombie lords are clunky and slow, and there are just FAR better options in the 3 drop slots. Cemetery Reaper's activated ability is just a worse version of Diregraf Colossus, Diregraf Captain is probably the best out of the bunch but it's competing against the super star of the deck Plague Belcher, which has the same triggered ability on a far bigger body, and also forces us to play blue. Lord of The Undead lets us return a guy to our hand but we're also playing Bloodghast/Relentless Dead/Gravecrawler/Dread Wanderer which already all come back to the battlefield. Death Baron and Lord of the Acursed are both decent but again there just a lot of competition in this mana slot,Belcher Gerry and Colossus are just far better and we only want to play 8-9 3 drops,
Phylactery Lich is an option to consider if you do decide to go the aether vial route but it can be inconsistent and a do nothing card if you don't get a turn 1/2 vial.
Fleshbag Marauder and Life Bane Zombie offers more removal and hand disruption respectively, that can also be hit off of Collected Company. This cards are alright as side board options if you really want, depending on the current / your local metagame.
Varolz gives value to the cheap zombies that don't come back, but if you're playing it, you're not playing as many zombies which makes Belcher, Wayward Servant, and Colossus considerably worse.
Four Drops:
Company is the go to here, play 4. Kalitas is also really good in some match ups but is lackluster in others so I've moved it to the side. If you it in you probably want to side out a CoCo as I constantly find myself having both in hand, and it feels awkward because I want to cast Kalitas but CoCo is the better play the majority of the time.
If you want to play a version with red Falkenrath is an option to consider, however I don't feel as though this card is as crazy in modern as it was while in standard, and it definitely isn't at the same power level as CoCo or even Kalitas.
Mono black variants might want to consider Obliterator but it's pretty bad in Abzan since it's 4 black to cast and again, is underwhelming compared to Company.
Thanks for reading and let me know what you guys think, and any modifications you come up with if you do decide to take up this brew! #makezombiesgreatagain
Between Cryptbreaker, Liliana, Collective Brutality, we have several ways to get value out of our less-desirable topdecks. I'd even think that Cryptbreaker is probably the best reason to be playing zombies, if we just wanted a bunch of Savannah Lions we'd be playing humans, but it's the graveyard interactions and grindy card advantage that sets zombies apart as a deck.
The deck can be Bgw having only white in Wayward Servant.
Also I would include at least a couple of Diregraf Colossus because they can populate the board really quick and have lot of synergy with Wayward Servant and Plague Belcher. I would cut 2 Diregraf Ghoul for 2 Diregraf Colossus so you still have plenty (10) of 2/x zombies for B and also have a better lategame.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15259&d=292706&f=MO
Unified Will however feels a bit like a conditional mana leak. And at that point I think I'd rather much be playing mana leak.
It'd be nice against storm if they're not running a lot of bounce. And it seems like affinity and dredge simply cannot kill us through a Worship, so it's an interesting sideboard choice against those three decks but not mainboard material.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Eldrazi have to have a Birds of Paradise in play and all three bant colored lands to target 4 CMC for Engineered Explosives. That's certainly possible, but it's not easy. If you can kill their bird you shut off that option. Plus, if they're pumping 6 mana into EE and taking out Worship that's an EE that's not wiping part of your creatures.
Anger of the Gods is a problem, but that's an issue that the deck has to have a plan for, Worship or not.
Yes, i agree 100%, I also think grindy card advantage and resilience is what makes zombies unique as a tribe (and why i like them). For my part i'll focus on that aspect of the tribe's identity in my future testing.
You got to ask if you want to take over a deck thread if it already exists. As zombies has no "real" primer, its very ok, just message me first. Also it needs to be a consensus of either 1. a very open primer, not of your brew but the zombie archetype and all it has to offer in general or B. a very specific version but the over all consensus is this is the best version.
I was looking over for threads specifically for Abzan and didn't find any so I thought it would be alright. Apologies for not realizing and not understanding fully what a primer was, I'll use a different tag for something like this in the future. (and just incase there's confusing that was all sincere n not in a sarcastic / attitude-y kind of way lmao)
Figured as much, which is why I left that option out there. Someone somewhere might know a much of zombie set ups and care enough about it. Its a popular tribe.
No worries. Zombies is popular enough that more than 1 thread could float around, and we like keeping stuff a little cleaner than that. I can still add your primer to the OP since there isnt one yet anyways when your ready unless someone else wants to do an indepth one.
4x Gravecrawler
4x Dread Wanderer
4x Bloodghast
4x Lotleth Troll
2x Geralf's Messenger
4x Plague Belcher
4x Prized Amalgam
Artifact (4)
4x Smuggler's Copter
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Collective Brutality
Land (21)
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
2x Swamp
2x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Thoughtseize
1x Dismember
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Damnation
The solution was to move more towards discard and looting effects: Cryptbreaker, Lotleth Troll, Collective Brutality, and Smuggler's Copter.
Cryptbreaker was the first to get cut. My list was drifting towards an all-in aggro strategy, and with so many creatures tapping for combat I wasn't getting enough value from Cryptbreaker's tap-draw ability. The discard ability was situationally useful but generally too expensive and slow to get good tempo benefits from Bloodghast / Amalgam. Cryptbreaker is best in lists with lots of non-attacking bodies (Sculler, Servant, Mummy etc) going for a slow grind.
Lotleth Troll is awesome. Even though I said I was building around Amalgam this is the guy doing all the real work. Pitching Bloodghast / Amalgam / Gravecrawler to bulk up Troll and then bringing back the discarded cards for free / cheap does lead to some busted plays. But even without discard fodder Troll's trample and regeneration make him a solid play for 2 mana. Collective Brutality and Smuggler's Copter are also solid cards even without discard fodder. There is some variability in terms of drawing discard outlets (11x) without fodder (16x) and vice versa, but since each half is reasonably competent on its own you don't run into the same issues that you do, say, drawing the wrong half of a ramp deck.
I did encounter some scenarios where my Gravecrawlers / Bloodghasts / Wanderers were already on the field and a discarded Amalgam was stuck in the graveyard. Your opponent won't necessarily help you put one of these enablers into the grave with combat so instead of adding a sac outlet I'm running 4x Plague Belcher in the top end to help put an enabler back into the GY. Because of the higher than normal density of cheap recursive creatures Plague Belcher can more consistently enter as a 5/4 without losing value.
To handle the inevitable graveyard hate the deck can swap Push for Thoughtseize, and has additional copies of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in the side. Thoughtseize + Collective Brutality has a decent chance of catching an Anger of the Gods before it's cast.
I like that the deck has several avenues of evasion and direct damage: beats via Lotleth Troll's Trample, Plague Belcher's Menace, Smuggler's Copter's Flying, drain from Plague Belcher's passive ability, Geralf's Messenger's ETB drain, and Collective Brutality's drain mode. Plus with enough recursive threats you can sometimes just go wide and keep sneaking damage through while re-playing anything that dies from blocking.
Dread Wanderer is OK. I had dismissed 2B recursion as being too expensive, but when pitching him and recurring him at 2B also brings you back a free Amalgam or another counter on Troll or another mode on Collective Brutality the extra two mana to recur him isn't completely awful. He's worth running in the build for the extra consistency even if he is the lowest value of the recursion enablers.
I did try running CoCo in the build, but it wasn't worth it. The deck doesn't have any problems maintaining card advantage, it can cheat bodies in at an unfair rate with Brutality & Bloodghast / Amalgam, it required me to run more lands / a higher curve, it didn't help to reliably enable my recursion shenanigans, and perhaps most importantly it was also diluting my interaction and discard outlets. Overall the combination of Lotleth Troll and Abrupt Decay make the green splash very much worth it, though.
Flex spots are the 4th Copter, the 3rd Brutality, and Plague Belcher / Geralf's Messenger. The current cards work well, but there might be something even better to run here.
EDIT: Updated SB on 4/28/17
The guy is a 2-for-1 in the right matchups, is evasive and has an aggressive body. Nabbing combo pieces off podless hand by exiling them is super strong. I guess the main drawback is that he lands on the field a little late when odds are most creatures have hit the field already.
I love this deck. It's like the CoCo BUG Zombies I was planning but actually good and consistent.
Got a couple of questions though:
First of all: Wouldn't Dismember mesh better with Abrupt Decay so we're not unable to deal with Reality Smasher? And secondly, think we could cut one Dread Wanderer, one Plague Belcher and maybe a Collective to make room for 3 mainboard thoughtseizes?.
Another slightly jankier option might be a singleton Tragic Slip. We don't have have a sac outlet per se to turn this on but we do have Belcher, lots of other destruction-based removal, and lots of creatures that we're ok with dying in combat. It's slightly gimmicky but can be an effective and mana-efficient surprise in Modern sometimes. One last option would be Victim of Night.
Glissa is my sideboard tech against Eldrazi (and DSJ). Other than Skyspawner they basically can't attack through first strike + deathtouch, so that's another way of neutralizing Reality Smasher. She can also recur Smuggler's Copter. She could easily be maindeckable in the current meta (lots of DSJ/Eldrazi, not so much lightning bolt) but I'm focusing on synergy in the main for now.
As for shaving things for mainboard Thoughtseize: 26 is about as low as I want to go on Zombie threats in the main board. Yes the substitutions you mentioned could "work" but you're also shaving down the consistency of your discard shenanigans (whose tempo and virtual card advantage is the reason we're exposing ourselves to so much potential hate), and you're most likely to get away with those pre-board game 1. I like to build my tribal MB as all-in and synergy based as possible and then have alternate interactive configurations I can side into.. but that's just me.
EDIT: I'm not sure about Lifebane Zombie. I agree that there's definitely potential there against Abzan Melira Combo, GW Value Town decks, Elves, and Mono-White or GW Taxes since they don't run any black creatures. I'm not totally convinced about Junk, since they can often run some combination of Bob / Flayer / Tasigur / Siege Rhino. Playing a hand-pick effect on turn 3 is already a little late, as you mentioned. Probably too late for Elves. I'm not convinced Lifebane Zombie is necessarily the best choice for the global meta at the moment, but it may be a good choice for your local meta.
I do think there is a place for Liliana of the Veil somewhere in the 75.
A couple thoughts for for you to mull over - At slightly better than 47% chance to hit, Thought Scour is basically "Draw 1.5 cards" at instant speed for 1 mana, that's a great card. Maybe even better than that because often those cards are going to sneak into play without any mana investment. Another couple ways to optimize Thought Scour is by adding a pair of Delve threats (Gurmag Angler is a Zombie and Tasigur is great and on colour for you). Also. every creature is a potential hit off scour if you decide to run Liliana, The last hope. Lilly also gives you the ability to rebuy something like Belcher, in order to kill Gravecrawler, in order to recast gravecrawler, triggering prized amalgam... :D. Magical Christmas land for sure, but lots of value to be had with LTLH
I'd also like to mention that I love Smuggler's Copter, but I think 4 is the wrong number. I've tried varying numbers of Copter's from 1-4 in Zombies and in Goblins and hated every time I drew the second copter - it was bad well over 90% of the time. The first one was almost always incredible (and takes the heat off other prime removal targets). Your list looks a lot better suited to use the discard mode on copter than anything I messed around with, but I still have my doubts that you are ever going to enjoy drawing the second copy, and if you do find yourself with the second copy, keep it in hand so that your other one still acts a lightning rod. I'm still not decided on whether I want 1 or 2 copies main, but I would recommend starting your testing with 3 or less.
Personally I haven't had any problems with Copter yet. I could certainly shave the fourth copy but I'm not quite sure what it wants to be replaced with yet. The replacement pretty much has to be another discard outlet to maintain consistency and I'm not quite sure if I want Liliana of the Veil in the main or something else.
Glissa, the Traitor is just a sweetheart. I ran two in my Rock for the longest time along with one Executioner's Capsule main-deck and another side-board along with one copy of Engineered Explosives. It's probably jank but it was SO MUCH FUN when it worked! And it did work reasonably often.
When I find my get-up-and-go, I'll rebuild the Rock with Traverse the Ulvenwald to make Glissa and other tool-box creatures hopefully even better.
Apologies for the digression, but I do like Glissa in any BG list.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
With Dredge one of the main decks of the format, and the undisputed king of graveyard shenanigans we also have to ask ourselves : What sets us apart from Dredge? Why would we sleeve up Zombies instead of Dredge?.