I'd love to have more details on your testing. What list did you use? How many games did you play? against what decks? How many games did you win/lost?
I updated the list in my previous post but it's here:
The brief testing was a combination of 5 games vs DSJ (sorry, no play-by-play notes) of which I won 2 and I also played through ~30 rounds of goldfishing on my own to assess the manabase, curve, and overall consistency -- hardly conclusive! I encourage you to do your own testing, too -- but I had mixed impressions with Wayward Servant... it's really tricky to evaluate. Some games it just dies and provides no value, or its topdecked late and you don't have a grip of Zombies to really fuel the drain. Even when you play him T2 and he sticks he is a bit slow to have an impact, though, in that it just has to sit there turn 2, doesn't put your opponent on much of an early clock, doesn't disrupt them, and you don't want to block with it, either. If a game goes long, and he sticks, and you get a good engine going (Colossus, maybe Gravecrawler though that wasn't in my list) he can do something like -6 +6 life swing, which is obviously tremendous (accumulated) value for a 2-drop. At the moment I don't have enough data to say where he falls between "win-more" and "win-enough". As an aside, you don't really want to be slowly pinging a Death's Shadow player since this actually helps them somewhat, rather you really want to close the game out with an "alpha strike" to quickly take them from 8-10 life to zero life. I will say that Wayward Servant gets better with Gravecrawler, even without the machine-gun combo. Overall I wouldn't dismiss Wayward Servant and I really do love the card. It certainly deserves more testing in different configurations and against a broader variety of matchups. I think it excels when paired with more Thoughtseize effects to make sure it sticks, sac outlets (ideally zombie type) to enable recursion loops, and more Zombies that enter the battlefield multiple times. However, too many hand disruption spells and non-zombie sac outlets dilute the slightly more aggressive tempo plan of the Vial list, which is why it's tentatively on the chopping block for that list IMO.
Other little notes: Death Baron was great, and it shut down attacks until they could find a double-strike effect (which beats deathtouch, sadly) or removal. I really loved being able to hold up deathtouch blockers during opponent's turn, and then tap them EoT for Cryptbreaker's draw ability. Vialing in Binding Mummy was great to tap down would-be attackers, and against a midrange deck if you play a couple zombies on your turn you can basically tap down most of their board on your turn. For this reason I didn't find myself needing Lord of the Accursed's Menace ability as much as I thought. I was still kind of mixed on Dark Salvation. Love the scaling flexibility, didn't love the sorcery speed and dependence on board state.
Again, little differences vs BACE's list include running the 21st land since it's possible to pitch extra lands with Cryptbreaker or Brutality while also trimming Lord of the Accursed since too many 3-drop lords felt a little clunky even if it is good for Vial value. Also running the 4th Path since I think the 4th Path is better than a 31st creature.
Alright, i see you are running the more beatdown version. I guess wayward servant might be better in the zombicrats version? It does make sense that he would be medium in your list, i understantd better now.
One card I've been thinking about is Profane Command as a 1-2 of. It could help with an alfa strike giving your team Intimidate and draining some life, or could be a grindy machine killing one creature and returning one to play... I always liked the card and this seems a good shell for it, but maybe more recursion is not what we need
Might be semi-ok, but it looks worst than dark salvation to be honest.
Yeah I'm not sure Profane Command is efficient enough for our uses. Depending upon how you build you can generally get enough evasion from Binding Mummy & Lord of the Accursed.
Also, small update: I'm still feeling mana constricted, even at 21 lands. Using Cryptbreaker's draw ability just to try to stay on curve with your third and fourth land drop sucks. There are enough mana outlets between Gravecrawler, Relentless Undead, and Cryptbreaker combined with 1-2x Collective Brutality to make use of extra lands that I'm going back to 22 again. I've trimmed another Lord of the Accursed, but I think that as long as Vial is consistently freeing up mana for mana abilities it's ok that it's not casting quite as many 3-drops.
I have been testing briefly a mono black version and the results are very promising (i haven't tested postboard games, so I have to see the impact of graveyard hate). The list is this:
The Dread Wanderers have been a little disappointing for its high cost to come back, but I like having so much 1 mana threads in a meta with so little "wraths".
Looks good but i'd make the following tweaks:
committing to the full 12 one drops might be good, not a lot of tribal decks have that option so that might be a good angle, but you've got to take advantage of that more. In such a list i'd definitely run some lords, at least 2, maybe 4. Death baron seems like the best one, making combat a nightmare for your opponent (do you want to chump my deathtouch gravecrawler that will come back anyways?). You could cut a few removal for them. Maybe you want to splash blue for diregraf captain. Also compelling deterrence could be great with the lilianas!
Death Baron seems a good fit for the deck, thanks. But at 3 mana it should replace some messengers or some plague belchers and Messengers are the MVP of the deck IMHO. I'll try 2 Death Baron instead of the 2 Belchers to see how good they are.
Compelling Deterrence is a card I like a lot, but splashing blue only for it is not optimal. I think a green or white splash is better.
In my experience, the effect we need from blue the most is Dispel. Having a 1cmc counterspell that deals with the vast majority of answers to creatures is almost always a huge blowout. Even though I only run 2 copies of it, it's the main reason for a small blue splash in my B/W zombies list. Dispel being able to protect Tidehollow Sculler is very potent, now with Plague Belcher being a curve topping huge threat, Dispel is going to have even more to offer. The other notable card from blue is Thought Scour, which is very good in the deck but requires a pretty big stretch in the mana base, as you're going to want access to cast it by Turn 2 90% of the time, as opposed to T3 or later for Dispel.
Another draw to blue black is Creeping Tar Pit. I don't play it personally because I only splash blue in B/W, but the power level is certainly there.
Alright, i see you are running the more beatdown version. I guess wayward servant might be better in the zombicrats version? It does make sense that he would be medium in your list, i understantd better now.
Wayward servant doesn't pass what I think is the biggest test in a zombie deck or any tribal deck, really: If my opponent responds with a sweeper, am I still in a good position? Gravecrawler, Dread Wanderer, Geralf's Messenger, and Relentless Dead all pass this test beautifully: They simply come back. Diregraf Captain and Plague Belcher attack the life total. (and I believe this is why Captain is the best of all the lords) Wayward Servant, Diregragh Colossus and Diregraf Ghoul fail this test. You play these into a Wrath of God you get nothing out of the exchange. Ghoul, though is acceptable because it remains a 2/2 for 1.
Alright, i see you are running the more beatdown version. I guess wayward servant might be better in the zombicrats version? It does make sense that he would be medium in your list, i understantd better now.
Wayward servant doesn't pass what I think is the biggest test in a zombie deck or any tribal deck, really: If my opponent responds with a sweeper, am I still in a good position? Gravecrawler, Dread Wanderer, Geralf's Messenger, and Relentless Dead all pass this test beautifully: They simply come back. Diregraf Captain and Plague Belcher attack the life total. (and I believe this is why Captain is the best of all the lords) Wayward Servant, Diregragh Colossus and Diregraf Ghoul fail this test. You play these into a Wrath of God you get nothing out of the exchange. Ghoul, though is acceptable because it remains a 2/2 for 1.
That criteria doesn't make any sense. Most tribal deck's creatures fail this «test» as well. None of merfolk's stuff pass it, same goes with elves, and slivers have only sedge sliver and thats it. The fact that we have SOME creature resilient to sweepers is a plus. I get the push test or bolt test but «sweeper test» is a ridiculous idea. You just don't overcommit if you can afford to play around sweepers thats it.
You're not gonna run into a sweeper every match. For the matches you DO expect them you play carefully, like leaving mana open for relentless and such, because these deck are usually slow and you only need to apply just enough pressure. I know spirits are good vs sweepers because of selfless spirit and spell queller to counter them, but if EVERY tribal or creature heavy decks were good vs sweeper why would anyone still play sweepers anyways?
Alright, i see you are running the more beatdown version. I guess wayward servant might be better in the zombicrats version? It does make sense that he would be medium in your list, i understantd better now.
Wayward servant doesn't pass what I think is the biggest test in a zombie deck or any tribal deck, really: If my opponent responds with a sweeper, am I still in a good position? Gravecrawler, Dread Wanderer, Geralf's Messenger, and Relentless Dead all pass this test beautifully: They simply come back. Diregraf Captain and Plague Belcher attack the life total. (and I believe this is why Captain is the best of all the lords) Wayward Servant, Diregragh Colossus and Diregraf Ghoul fail this test. You play these into a Wrath of God you get nothing out of the exchange. Ghoul, though is acceptable because it remains a 2/2 for 1.
That criteria doesn't make any sense. Most tribal deck's creatures fail this «test» as well. None of merfolk's stuff pass it, same goes with elves, and slivers have only sedge sliver and thats it. The fact that we have SOME creature resilient to sweepers is a plus. I get the push test or bolt test but «sweeper test» is a ridiculous idea. You just don't overcommit if you can afford to play around sweepers thats it.
Yes most tribial decks are bad! There's a reason why slivers and elves never put up results and the only exception has been Merfolk because they bring counter magic. Tribal synergies by their very nature require over-committing in order to be fast enough to beat combo decks, and grind through midrange decks. If you respond to the sweeper with a good creature, the combo deck is going to combo off and win. The midrange deck will respond with an even better creature. The control deck will answer it. Sweepers are incredible card advantage against decks that want to rely on creatures (like tribal decks) and the only way to win consistently is to some how mitigate it or take it away. Knights has Knight Exemplar, and Brave the Elements; Zombies has reanimation and dies triggers. You don't win at magic going one-for-one, and the sweeper test is a great way to see how many of your tribal creatures do so. Heck, if wayward servant triggered on its own entry onto the battlefield it would pass, but it doesn't so if they kill it one-for-one you lost tempo, and if they sweep you lost card advantage. Compare this to Zulaport Cutthroat who, if killed, still deals damage. If swept deals even more damage. It can also block, both preventing damage and dealing it when it dies in combat.
You're not gonna run into a sweeper every match. For the matches you DO expect them you play carefully, like leaving mana open for relentless and such, because these deck are usually slow and you only need to apply just enough pressure. I know spirits are good vs sweepers because of selfless spirit and spell queller to counter them, but if EVERY tribal or creature heavy decks were good vs sweeper why would anyone still play sweepers anyways?
See how you mention Relentless Dead, and how it passes the test? Or how Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller allow you to cheat the test? Letting your other creatures pass?
I'm thinking of taking this in another direction, I'm not sure about the aggro plan being good enough and the aristocrat style being better than Aristocrats itself. If the competitive advantage of Zombies are cheap expendable creatures and recursion, I'm going to go with that. Looking at Shadow of the Grave and Zombie Infestation, the plan looks good. Here's a rough draft.
I think there still needs a sacrifice outlet like Carrion Feeder and the closest thing is bloodflow connoisseur which may have a good spot in the aristocrat version.
Dump a bunch of cards to Zombie Infestation, then bring it all back with Shadow of the Grave, only to dump it back in getting some tokens. And if you play your cards right, you can bring back gravecrawler or bloodghast, triggering Prized Amalgam to come back as well.
Alright, i see you are running the more beatdown version. I guess wayward servant might be better in the zombicrats version? It does make sense that he would be medium in your list, i understantd better now.
Wayward servant doesn't pass what I think is the biggest test in a zombie deck or any tribal deck, really: If my opponent responds with a sweeper, am I still in a good position? Gravecrawler, Dread Wanderer, Geralf's Messenger, and Relentless Dead all pass this test beautifully: They simply come back. Diregraf Captain and Plague Belcher attack the life total. (and I believe this is why Captain is the best of all the lords) Wayward Servant, Diregragh Colossus and Diregraf Ghoul fail this test. You play these into a Wrath of God you get nothing out of the exchange. Ghoul, though is acceptable because it remains a 2/2 for 1.
That criteria doesn't make any sense. Most tribal deck's creatures fail this «test» as well. None of merfolk's stuff pass it, same goes with elves, and slivers have only sedge sliver and thats it. The fact that we have SOME creature resilient to sweepers is a plus. I get the push test or bolt test but «sweeper test» is a ridiculous idea. You just don't overcommit if you can afford to play around sweepers thats it.
Yes most tribial decks are bad! There's a reason why slivers and elves never put up results and the only exception has been Merfolk because they bring counter magic. Tribal synergies by their very nature require over-committing in order to be fast enough to beat combo decks, and grind through midrange decks. If you respond to the sweeper with a good creature, the combo deck is going to combo off and win. The midrange deck will respond with an even better creature. The control deck will answer it. Sweepers are incredible card advantage against decks that want to rely on creatures (like tribal decks) and the only way to win consistently is to some how mitigate it or take it away. Knights has Knight Exemplar, and Brave the Elements; Zombies has reanimation and dies triggers. You don't win at magic going one-for-one, and the sweeper test is a great way to see how many of your tribal creatures do so. Heck, if wayward servant triggered on its own entry onto the battlefield it would pass, but it doesn't so if they kill it one-for-one you lost tempo, and if they sweep you lost card advantage. Compare this to Zulaport Cutthroat who, if killed, still deals damage. If swept deals even more damage. It can also block, both preventing damage and dealing it when it dies in combat.
You're not gonna run into a sweeper every match. For the matches you DO expect them you play carefully, like leaving mana open for relentless and such, because these deck are usually slow and you only need to apply just enough pressure. I know spirits are good vs sweepers because of selfless spirit and spell queller to counter them, but if EVERY tribal or creature heavy decks were good vs sweeper why would anyone still play sweepers anyways?
See how you mention Relentless Dead, and how it passes the test? Or how Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller allow you to cheat the test? Letting your other creatures pass?
Oh so you think ALL tribal decks are bad? Thats ridiculous, they have good and bad matchups, but they aren't bad! Not being tier one doesn't mean being bad, otherwise most decks played in modern would be bad. They each have their qualities and particular angle of attack. Saying all tribal decks are bad because good cards (sweepers) exist against them is nonsense. A lot of strong hate cards exist in the format, that doesn't make all decks bad, right?
The point i'm trying to make, specifically with zombies, is you don't need ALL your stuff to be resilient. You need to have some card quality too. I've been tweaking this deck since shadows over innitrad and cards like diregraf colossus are just fine. It is perfectly ok to have a mix of resilient creatures and powerful creature. Just like spirits: not all of them survives damnation, but if you expect sweepers (who are played in a minority of decks, game one, by the way) you just play to your outs. Just like in zombies you can play your stuff and hold on to a relentless dead to buy back your stuff later.
Just want to point out that building a deck 100% resilient to sweepers is impossible, you can't have the cards do all the work, just play carefully! And also i think you are exagerating the prevalence of sweepers in the format. Combo deck in particular don't usually pack sweepers, the exception being valakut and living end. Other creature heavy decks aren't incentivized to play them. And control decks are already a decent matchup, so i don't see the problem with adding good cards that were previously just fillers pre amonkhet.
Most played sweeper in modern is Anger of the Gods anyway..
Yes and that is why i pack burrenton forge-tender in the sideboard along ranger of eos. All tribal decks need to acknoledge the existence of sweepers in their sideboard, even though you will not face them most games.
I think sweepers are actually pretty bad against us if you're playing the zombiecrsts version (which is the main version using colossus). Sac your board in response, get all your die triggers, use relentless dead X ability to recur colossus with a ton of counters and then reset your board with gravecrawler next turn. Obviously this is assuming you have all the pieces together already but still. We have built in protection. Sweepers aren't the silver bullet, grave hate is
I think sweepers are actually pretty bad against us if you're playing the zombiecrsts version (which is the main version using colossus). Sac your board in response, get all your die triggers, use relentless dead X ability to recur colossus with a ton of counters and then reset your board with gravecrawler next turn. Obviously this is assuming you have all the pieces together already but still. We have built in protection. Sweepers aren't the silver bullet, grave hate is
Agreed, but in previous versions i've actually beaten Rest in peace and various graveyard hate post board, quite a few times. This is precisely because i have a couple of creature that don't care that much about the graveyard. I think having a mix is the best strategy. Now graveyard hate PLUS sweepers, that is harder.
Have we considered giving Nantuko Husk a shot now that plague Belcher is a thing? He furthers both the drain plan by being a great sac outlet and also makes combat a nightmare for the opponents, making it easy to push damage through and giving our gravecrawlers and bloodghasts relevance later on.
Not only that but he completely ****s over Anger of the Gods by simply saccing your board to him so he survives it and your crawlers actually hit the yard. (Next turn you can recast them so he swings for a lot too).
Honestly I don't think you can afford Mutavault in your list without dropping tempo from spells stuck in your hand. The density of colored 1-drops, double-colored 2-drops, triple-colored Messengers is prohibitively high. Urborg helps but you will increase your mull % significantly by pitching sketchy opening hands with Mutavault. IMO you absolutely should run 13+ white sources (which you need for T2 Tidehollow Sculler anyways) and switch to Path over Dismember. See my most recent list for a starting place on the manabase.
Grave Titan is a really powerful card but it'd be a little tricky to curve into at 6 CMC.
Liliana's Mastery provides a similar effect to Grave Titan while being a Mana less. I doubt it's good enough for modern, but I have to say that having played with it at the prerelease, the card is a bomb by itself and any time I had even 1 more zombie on the field it felt absurd. It was almost always 7+ power for 5 Mana.
I think at CMC5 I'd rather much be casting a Dark Salvation and 3-for-1 my opponent as opposed to a Lilianas Mastery, with the added benefit that you can use Dark Salvation as removal or a 3-drop as well, it's more flexible and doesn't just sit on your hand.
To play devil's advocate: Imagine a scenario where you've hit 5 CMC against a control deck who's been grinding the game down and clearing all your threats. You topdeck Dark Salvation -- it's possible that the control player doesn't have any X/2s for you to kill. Where DS would just get you 2x 2/2s, Liliana's Expertise would get you 2x 3/3s and a difficult-to-remove anthem that improves future topdeck'd zombies and might do more to put you back in the game. Overall I think I'd prefer Expertise when behind, but I agree that Salvation's flexibility is a big asset that might earn it a slot in the MB over Expertise, if you were to run either one.
@liliana's mastery: well you can probably find a situation were any card is better than another, but you are right about dark salvation's flexibility, it makes the card better in most cases i believe, which is what truly matters.
@gideon of the trials: might be better in the sideboard for those who played worship. The double white is a real drawback though, double splash color isn't ideal. I often rely on cavern of souls to have white mana, gideon makes the land unplayable because with it you need 2 other white sources to cast it. I'm not sure gideon is worth ditching the caverns...
@zombicrats: i've goldfished a bunch with my list, a few things to note:
Viscera seer, in a vacuum, is the best sac outlet. Freeing my mana to cast other stuff is very valuable. I also think i want 4, because it makes the rest of the deck turbo drain. Really good with gravecrawler and geralf's messenger, and also relentless dead late game with lots of mana. Will have to see in actual games if cartel aristocrat pulls her weight by being more resilient. It is likely she will be better when facing interaction, so i opted for a 2/2 split.
Wayward servant seemed pretty good, speeding up the clock. I can imagine the lifegain being good vs an opponent trying to kill me. Requires 4x sac outlets to work though, the card truly shines with gravecrawler + seer/aristocrat. I could see it being decent in aether vial decks, maybe.
Plague belcher really speeds up our clock too. The drawback might be more significant when facing removal, so i think 2 is the right number.
Dark salvation/fleshbag marauder, i'm debating between the two. Salvation is more flexible and better at building a board, but marauder kills stuff we can't kill otherwize and is sweet with some of the other zombies (relentless dead, messenger, belcher, etc). In a vial list i'd go for marauder for sure.
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Binding Mummy
2x Relentless Dead
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wayward Servant
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Colossus
3x Lord of the Accursed
4x Aether Vial
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (2)
1x Sign in Blood
1x Dark Salvation
Land (21)
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
Other little notes: Death Baron was great, and it shut down attacks until they could find a double-strike effect (which beats deathtouch, sadly) or removal. I really loved being able to hold up deathtouch blockers during opponent's turn, and then tap them EoT for Cryptbreaker's draw ability. Vialing in Binding Mummy was great to tap down would-be attackers, and against a midrange deck if you play a couple zombies on your turn you can basically tap down most of their board on your turn. For this reason I didn't find myself needing Lord of the Accursed's Menace ability as much as I thought. I was still kind of mixed on Dark Salvation. Love the scaling flexibility, didn't love the sorcery speed and dependence on board state.
I will test this list next:
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Gravecrawler
4x Binding Mummy
4x Relentless Dead
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Colossus
2x Lord of the Accursed
4x Aether Vial
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (1)
1x Collective Brutality
Land (21)
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
1x Fetid Heath
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Might be semi-ok, but it looks worst than dark salvation to be honest.
Also, small update: I'm still feeling mana constricted, even at 21 lands. Using Cryptbreaker's draw ability just to try to stay on curve with your third and fourth land drop sucks. There are enough mana outlets between Gravecrawler, Relentless Undead, and Cryptbreaker combined with 1-2x Collective Brutality to make use of extra lands that I'm going back to 22 again. I've trimmed another Lord of the Accursed, but I think that as long as Vial is consistently freeing up mana for mana abilities it's ok that it's not casting quite as many 3-drops.
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Gravecrawler
4x Binding Mummy
4x Relentless Dead
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Colossus
1x Lord of the Accursed
4x Aether Vial
Instant (3)
3x Path to Exile
Sorcery (2)
2x Collective Brutality
Land (22)
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
In my experience, the effect we need from blue the most is Dispel. Having a 1cmc counterspell that deals with the vast majority of answers to creatures is almost always a huge blowout. Even though I only run 2 copies of it, it's the main reason for a small blue splash in my B/W zombies list. Dispel being able to protect Tidehollow Sculler is very potent, now with Plague Belcher being a curve topping huge threat, Dispel is going to have even more to offer. The other notable card from blue is Thought Scour, which is very good in the deck but requires a pretty big stretch in the mana base, as you're going to want access to cast it by Turn 2 90% of the time, as opposed to T3 or later for Dispel.
Another draw to blue black is Creeping Tar Pit. I don't play it personally because I only splash blue in B/W, but the power level is certainly there.
That criteria doesn't make any sense. Most tribal deck's creatures fail this «test» as well. None of merfolk's stuff pass it, same goes with elves, and slivers have only sedge sliver and thats it. The fact that we have SOME creature resilient to sweepers is a plus. I get the push test or bolt test but «sweeper test» is a ridiculous idea. You just don't overcommit if you can afford to play around sweepers thats it.
You're not gonna run into a sweeper every match. For the matches you DO expect them you play carefully, like leaving mana open for relentless and such, because these deck are usually slow and you only need to apply just enough pressure. I know spirits are good vs sweepers because of selfless spirit and spell queller to counter them, but if EVERY tribal or creature heavy decks were good vs sweeper why would anyone still play sweepers anyways?
See how you mention Relentless Dead, and how it passes the test? Or how Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller allow you to cheat the test? Letting your other creatures pass?
I think there still needs a sacrifice outlet like Carrion Feeder and the closest thing is bloodflow connoisseur which may have a good spot in the aristocrat version.
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Swamp
2 Mutavault
3 Zombie Infestation
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal push
2 Cathartic Reunion
1 Collective Brutality
4 Gravecrawler
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Dread Wanderer
2 Diregraf Colossus
Dump a bunch of cards to Zombie Infestation, then bring it all back with Shadow of the Grave, only to dump it back in getting some tokens. And if you play your cards right, you can bring back gravecrawler or bloodghast, triggering Prized Amalgam to come back as well.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Oh so you think ALL tribal decks are bad? Thats ridiculous, they have good and bad matchups, but they aren't bad! Not being tier one doesn't mean being bad, otherwise most decks played in modern would be bad. They each have their qualities and particular angle of attack. Saying all tribal decks are bad because good cards (sweepers) exist against them is nonsense. A lot of strong hate cards exist in the format, that doesn't make all decks bad, right?
The point i'm trying to make, specifically with zombies, is you don't need ALL your stuff to be resilient. You need to have some card quality too. I've been tweaking this deck since shadows over innitrad and cards like diregraf colossus are just fine. It is perfectly ok to have a mix of resilient creatures and powerful creature. Just like spirits: not all of them survives damnation, but if you expect sweepers (who are played in a minority of decks, game one, by the way) you just play to your outs. Just like in zombies you can play your stuff and hold on to a relentless dead to buy back your stuff later.
Just want to point out that building a deck 100% resilient to sweepers is impossible, you can't have the cards do all the work, just play carefully! And also i think you are exagerating the prevalence of sweepers in the format. Combo deck in particular don't usually pack sweepers, the exception being valakut and living end. Other creature heavy decks aren't incentivized to play them. And control decks are already a decent matchup, so i don't see the problem with adding good cards that were previously just fillers pre amonkhet.
Yes and that is why i pack burrenton forge-tender in the sideboard along ranger of eos. All tribal decks need to acknoledge the existence of sweepers in their sideboard, even though you will not face them most games.
Agreed, but in previous versions i've actually beaten Rest in peace and various graveyard hate post board, quite a few times. This is precisely because i have a couple of creature that don't care that much about the graveyard. I think having a mix is the best strategy. Now graveyard hate PLUS sweepers, that is harder.
Not only that but he completely ****s over Anger of the Gods by simply saccing your board to him so he survives it and your crawlers actually hit the yard. (Next turn you can recast them so he swings for a lot too).
We discussed it a page or two ago
Liliana's Mastery provides a similar effect to Grave Titan while being a Mana less. I doubt it's good enough for modern, but I have to say that having played with it at the prerelease, the card is a bomb by itself and any time I had even 1 more zombie on the field it felt absurd. It was almost always 7+ power for 5 Mana.
@gideon of the trials: might be better in the sideboard for those who played worship. The double white is a real drawback though, double splash color isn't ideal. I often rely on cavern of souls to have white mana, gideon makes the land unplayable because with it you need 2 other white sources to cast it. I'm not sure gideon is worth ditching the caverns...
@zombicrats: i've goldfished a bunch with my list, a few things to note:
Viscera seer, in a vacuum, is the best sac outlet. Freeing my mana to cast other stuff is very valuable. I also think i want 4, because it makes the rest of the deck turbo drain. Really good with gravecrawler and geralf's messenger, and also relentless dead late game with lots of mana. Will have to see in actual games if cartel aristocrat pulls her weight by being more resilient. It is likely she will be better when facing interaction, so i opted for a 2/2 split.
Wayward servant seemed pretty good, speeding up the clock. I can imagine the lifegain being good vs an opponent trying to kill me. Requires 4x sac outlets to work though, the card truly shines with gravecrawler + seer/aristocrat. I could see it being decent in aether vial decks, maybe.
Plague belcher really speeds up our clock too. The drawback might be more significant when facing removal, so i think 2 is the right number.
Dark salvation/fleshbag marauder, i'm debating between the two. Salvation is more flexible and better at building a board, but marauder kills stuff we can't kill otherwize and is sweet with some of the other zombies (relentless dead, messenger, belcher, etc). In a vial list i'd go for marauder for sure.
Lands: i'll probably switch urborg, tomb of yawgmoth for a 4th cavern of souls, urborg isn't as good without mutavaults, and sometimes help the opponent...
Updated list for further testing:
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
creatures: 28
2 viscera seer
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
2 cartel aristocrat
4 geralf's messenger
2 plague belcher
3 cavern of souls
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
And Infect. And those things you mentioned are prolific enough to make it worth it. Or target yourself,